US News 2016 Medical School Rankings

[miamiheatfan]

I think people tend to use "top whatever" as a way to reference a group of schools to save themselves the trouble of naming the actual schools while discussing them. For example, when someone says "what are my chances at a top 5," we know that they are most likely referring to Stanford, UCSF, Penn, Harvard, and Hopkins.

I know what you mean, but do you think rankings even matter beyond #35 in that case?

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[chronicidal]

I think people tend to use "top whatever" as a way to reference a group of schools to save themselves the trouble of naming the actual schools while discussing them. For example, when someone says "what are my chances at a top 5," we know that they are most likely referring to Stanford, UCSF, Penn, Harvard, and Hopkins.

The only ones that are securely in the top 5 over the span of the careers of current people in medicine are Harvard and Hopkins. Stanford and Penn were not top 5 schools at various times in the last generation.

 

[miamiheatfan]

When people start to dissect the list and say "omg X school moved up 2 spots this year!" or "wow Y school beat Z school," that's when rankings don't matter. If you're deciding between #2 and #72, #2 is likely to have more opportunities, better reputation, etc so in that sense the ranking "matters." So really, the tiny changes that happen each year mean almost nothing in the grand scheme of things.

Yeah that I do not disagree with at all. But if one school is like #42 and another is like #51, is that really significant?

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

Yeah that I do not disagree with at all. But if one school is like #42 and another is like #51, is that really significant?

No, but obviously US News wants to quantify everything, so #42 and #51 will have different scores, and different rankings.

 

[JPA178]

...anybody know when the AAMC will update the MSAR?

 

[Ismet]

Yeah that I do not disagree with at all. But if one school is like #42 and another is like #51, is that really significant?

No

 

[Ismet]

...anybody know when the AAMC will update the MSAR?

I think the new MSAR comes out every April.

 

[Willy38]

Stanford's ranking went up when US News began to factor in NIH grant funding per faculty member.

If I recall correctly, they lobbied for this and got it implemented, hence the rise from ~9th to a consistent 2nd. Don't know for sure, just think I read that somewhere.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

The only ones that are securely in the top 5 over the span of the careers of current people in medicine are Harvard and Hopkins. Stanford and Penn were not top 5 schools at various times in the last generation.

I was referring to current med school applicants/students. They usually use the more current US News Rankings to reference schools, even if they believe that the metrics are a joke.

 

[chronicidal]

I was referring to current med school applicants/students. They usually use the more current US News Rankings to reference schools, even if they believe that the metrics are a joke.

I see. This is really a statement of how there's a paucity of alternative ranking systems. Can anyone name another medical school ranking list?

 

[mariambaby3]

There are many valid points in this thread - both supporting and rejecting the importance of the US News rank list. For those that are more experienced in the field, what alternative would you suggest for premeds who are looking to get an idea of what a top, good, middle-tier, and bad school is?

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

If I recall correctly, they lobbied for this and got it implemented, hence the rise from ~9th to a consistent 2nd. Don't know for sure, just think I read that somewhere.

I would also lobby for this if I were in their position. In 2013, their research grants per faculty member was the highest by far (over 350k).

Oh wow, check this out.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

I see. This is really a statement of how there's a paucity of alternative ranking systems. Can anyone name another medical school ranking list?

I have my own list. It's very subjective though

 

[URMD]

Just going to repost since no1 answered my question yet hopefully maybe people who didnt see this would have a better idea

who cares?

what, you have to say that your school is a top 75 school instead of a top 50? let's get real here

I was referring more to the quality of education one receives at said school. to rephrase - Does a slide in rankings over past couple of years correlate with a slide in quality of education at that school? Referring especially to clinical years here

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

Yeah that I do not disagree with at all. But if one school is like #42 and another is like #51, is that really significant?

This was addressed in @chronicidal's blog. The US News list always gives the top school a score of 100. So according to this ridiculous metric, Harvard med is at least 10% better than Stanford med (which scored an 89). And as @efle pointed out in a previous thread, schools like UCSF and Hopkins are essentially given a B grade (an 84).

If you're curious about the individual scores, place your mouse icon over the numeric rankings. You'll see that there's hardly a difference between the schools ranked in the 40s and 50s.

 

[efle]

This was addressed in @chronicidal's blog. The US News list always gives the top school a score of 100. So according to this ridiculous metric, Harvard med is at least 10% better than Stanford med (which scored an 89). And as @efle pointed out in a previous thread, schools like UCSF and Hopkins are essentially given a B grade (an 84).

If you're curious about the individual scores, place your mouse icon over the numeric rankings. You'll see that there's hardly a difference between the schools ranked in the 40s and 50s.

And places like Yale and UChicago get C's!

 

[Surgeonvivor]

.

 

[Frazier]

Thanks for the thread; interesting list to glance at... It's funny how the self-designated weighted importance of these things continuously decay after MS-0.

 

[Norm0cephalic]

Did they do the residency director scores this year? If so would anyone mind pming me a few schools' scores?

 

[The Buff OP]

A lil late on this one, but true G's know what's up when it comes to these type of lists.

 

[Psai]

Just going to repost since no1 answered my question yet hopefully maybe people who didnt see this would have a better idea


I was referring more to the quality of education one receives at said school. to rephrase - Does a slide in rankings over past couple of years correlate with a slide in quality of education at that school? Referring especially to clinical years here

Not only are they completely unable to measure clinical year quality, they don't even attempt it. It's a very nebulous thing. How can you grade a teacher's quality? One student may thrive on being grilled with difficult questions while another may collapse under the pressure. Your service may be slammed so your attending has no time to teach but someone else got great lectures daily. Your residents may be going through personal problems. One person may have chosen easier rotations than others. The chair could have retired so the solid department may become terrible. You can have vastly different experiences at the same school from the guy sitting next to you. How do you judge?

Not only do rankings not matter the way you think, the change in ranking is probably just as useless

 

[mariambaby3]

So again, I ask, how else would an individual without experience in the field - such as a premed - judge the relative quality/prestige of various medical schools?

While both schools are excellent, I'm sure the majority of individuals on this forum would agree that Harvard is more prestigious than, say, UVA. But without a list, how would a premed know? Word of mouth? If so, is that any more reliable than the US News rankings?

 

[efle]

So again, I ask, how else would an individual without experience in the field - such as a premed - judge the relative quality/prestige of various medical schools?

While both schools are excellent, I'm sure the majority of individuals on this forum would agree that Harvard is more prestigious than, say, UVA. But without a list, how would a premed know? Word of mouth? If so, is that any more reliable than the US News rankings?

Probably the best way is to look at avg stats for ballpark, but people will read way too far into that too (wow guyz Sinai = Harvard and > Hopkins UCSF b/c higher median MCAT)

 

[Psai]

So again, I ask, how else would an individual without experience in the field - such as a premed - judge the relative quality/prestige of various medical schools?

While both schools are excellent, I'm sure the majority of individuals on this forum would agree that Harvard is more prestigious than, say, UVA. But without a list, how would a premed know? Word of mouth? If so, is that any more reliable than the US News rankings?

Do you know what the word prestige means

 

[mariambaby3]

Do you know what the word prestige means

Obviously you find my use of the word contentious, so please enlighten me.

 

[chronicidal]

So again, I ask, how else would an individual without experience in the field - such as a premed - judge the relative quality/prestige of various medical schools?

While both schools are excellent, I'm sure the majority of individuals on this forum would agree that Harvard is more prestigious than, say, UVA. But without a list, how would a premed know? Word of mouth? If so, is that any more reliable than the US News rankings?

Statistically speaking, a better way to determine that Harvard is more prestigious than UVA is to survey people in the field about 'how prestigious is school X' on a scale of 1-5, find the means and standard errors, then do a test of the difference on that one domain.

 

[Psai]

Obviously you find my use of the word contentious, so please enlighten me.

That was a rather unusual way of answering a polar question

 

[Frazier]

Statistically speaking, a better way to determine that Harvard is more prestigious than UVA is to survey people in the field about 'how prestigious is school X' on a scale of 1-5, find the means and standard errors, then do a test of the difference on that one domain.

I prefer my Graves Test of Prestige:

State U:

UVA:

Harvard:

It's all about the visible sclera.

 

[famoussquamous]

I feel like they should just tier schools since most of these rankings are pointless, something similar to this:

Tier 1. It's easy to get research experience, lots of opportunities are handed to you, even if you're average here you'll still match fine.
Tier 2. Have to fight for research experience and opportunities, but they're there if look hard for them/fight for them. Typical medical school, need to stand out in some way to match well.
Tier 3. Not many opportunities. Will probably have to go off-campus to find research or search long and hard. Need to be exceptional to match well, includes D.O. schools

 

[URMD]

Tier 3. Not many opportunities. Will probably have to go off-campus to find research or search long and hard. Need to be exceptional to match well, includes D.O. schools

What M.D schools would you consider T3 vs T2 and how would you know where to place a school on those 2 tiers?
I feel like Tier 1 schools would be fairly obvious but teir 2 and 3 would be harder to classify. Do you have an example set of schools from each tier?

 

[famoussquamous]

What M.D schools would you consider T3 vs T2 and how would you know where to place a school on those 2 tiers?
I feel like Tier 1 schools would be fairly obvious but teir 2 and 3 would be harder to classify. Do you have an example set of schools from each tier?

Naming schools is pretty pointless, I guess it'd just be DO and Caribbean schools.

 

[Slack3r]

IDK, the typical run-of-the-mill state school vs. a small unranked school in the middle of nowhere.

I think you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

 

[famoussquamous]

I think you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

That comeback doesn't mean that much when you preface a comment with "I don't know"

 

[Slack3r]

That comeback doesn't mean that much when you preface a comment with "I don't know"

I KNOW you don't know what you're talking about.

 

[famoussquamous]

I KNOW you don't know what you're talking about.

Hahaha you misunderstand friend, I, me, myself started my statement with "I don't know" so coming in to say "you don't know what you're talking about" seems unnecessary and a cheap ploy for likes.

 

[Psai]

I KNOW you don't know what you're talking about.

He's the same person that tried to say that general surgery was primary care

 

[miamiheatfan]

Tier 2. Have to fight for research experience and opportunities, but they're there if look hard for them/fight for them. Typical medical school, need to stand out in some way to match well.

I don't know, I feel like there are a lot of "mid-tier" medical schools where there are tons of research going on and most students can find research fairly easily if they want.

 

[tiedyeddog]

I feel like they should just tier schools since most of these rankings are pointless, something similar to this:

Tier 1. It's easy to get research experience, lots of opportunities are handed to you, even if you're average here you'll still match fine.
Tier 2. Have to fight for research experience and opportunities, but they're there if look hard for them/fight for them. Typical medical school, need to stand out in some way to match well.
Tier 3. Not many opportunities. Will probably have to go off-campus to find research or search long and hard. Need to be exceptional to match well, includes D.O. schools

All of this ranking crap is pointless. When you actually apply to residencies you'll see it's more about who you know and not where you are from.

You don't need a ranking system to know that Harvard, duke, Stanford, etc are prestigious places to do medical school....

 

[famoussquamous]

He's the same person that tried to say that general surgery was primary care

I asked if people would qualify it to be primary care, not that I thought it was. Don't put words in my mouth man.

 

[AttainableDream]

He's the same person that tried to say that general surgery was primary care

FWIW, at one of my interviews, my interviewer (a surgeon) informed me that gen surgery could be considered as primary care.

 

[gyngyn]

FWIW, at one of my interviews, my interviewer (a surgeon) informed me that gen surgery could be considered as primary care.

He/she's wrong.

 

[senzen]

FWIW, at one of my interviews, my interviewer (a surgeon) informed me that gen surgery could be considered as primary care.

That's so misleading!

I think the only fields that would be considered primary care are Family Medicine, Internal Medicine, Ob-Gyn and Geriatrics.

I've read articles about women considering their Ob-Gyn their primary care provider so it may have been up for debate apparently but I believe there is indeed a general consensus that Ob-Gyns are considered PCPs.

At least when I look for PCPs to shadow, I consider emailing/asking them if they are in one of those 4 fields/specialities.

 

[gyngyn]

That's so misleading!

I think the only fields that would be considered primary care are Family Medicine, Internal Medicine, Ob-Gyn and Geriatrics.

I've read articles about women considering their Ob-Gyn their primary care provider so it may have been up for debate apparently but I believe there is indeed a general consensus that Ob-Gyns are considered PCPs.

At least when I look for PCPs to shadow, I consider emailing/asking them if they are in one of those 4 fields/specialities.

The following specialties (areas of focus) are recognized as primary care by the NHSC for purposes of scholarship:
Family Medicine, Internal Medicine, Pediatrics, Obstetrics/Gynecology, Geriatrics, Mental Health

 

[NeuResurgens]

I feel like they just got lazy in the lower half of the rankings. Half of those schools are all tied with each other.

 

[Psai]

I feel like they just got lazy in the lower half of the rankings. Half of those schools are all tied with each other.

Probably because these rankings are mostly meaningless in the first place? It makes no sense when you have 3 schools tied for 10 so that they can all brag that they are in the top 10

 

[NeuResurgens]

Probably because these rankings are mostly meaningless in the first place? It makes no sense when you have 3 schools tied for 10 so that they can all brag that they are in the top 10

So true. The more I've thought about it over the course of my studies, the more I've realized it's mostly useless. Top 20 gives you a bit more opportunity for research and that's mostly the extent of the difference it would seem. Maybe somewhat of a bump in competitiveness for residency.

 

[famoussquamous]

He/she's wrong.

I was told the same thing hence why I said it. Why do you think people keep spreading that lie then?

 

[gyngyn]

I was told the same thing hence why I said it. Why do you think people keep spreading that lie then?

Just being goofy, I guess.

 

[caffeinemia]

He/she's wrong.

General surgery is secondary care. They take care of all the things medicine/peds/gyne can't take care of.

Plastics is tertiary care. We take care of all the things general surgery can't take care of.

 

[gyngyn]

General surgery is secondary care. They take care of all the things medicine/peds/gyne can't take care of.

Plastics is tertiary care. We take care of all the things general surgery can't take care of.

At least we agree that surgery is not primary care!