USMLE scores for General Surgery

[HMD]

Has anybody had a personal experience, or heard of an applicant matching into a general surgery residency program with Steps 1 & 2 being 80 & 79(second attempt) respectively with otherwise strong application and letters? If yes, was that person an AMG or IMG? Is GS a possibility in such situation and what should one do to improve their chances? Do any programs really look at the "entire" application from the start?

Sorry for so many questions at once, but I will appreciate any response to any of them.

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[HMD]

Any input from anyone?

Surely, there must be some opinions/experiences... More than 100 people visited this thread...

Thank you for your suggestions.

 

[huktonfonix]

What does that translate into for 3 digit scores? Probably doesn't matter though. General surg is not very competitive right now. If you don't care too much where you train you will get in somewhere as long as you passed your boards and have other good points on your app as you stated. Check the recent match rates they have been down.

 

[jc7721]

I disagree. At the recent ACS meeting in Chicago, there was much discussion among the surgeons, and program directors, about how the idea that "surgery isn't competitive/anyone can get in" does not apply this year. This meeting was one week ago and already the volume of applications is much higher than in previous years. Unfilled spots in GS will be a thing of the past. There are going to be so many highly qualified applicants this year that programs are salivating at the fact that they will not need to take lesser qualified applicants. Programs will be able to actually pick the applicants they want, and not the ones that they are forced to take like in the past. This does not mean that you can't get into GS with 80/79 board scores--you just won't be able to get into any competitive programs--and this is the way it has always been; small community programs, in general, are easier to get into and that is what you will have to accept. 80/79 scores will not get you near places like UCSF, UCLA, emory, vanderbilt, penn, northwestern, and the list goes on. Sorry to be so blunt, but trust me, it is going to be competitive this year

 

[Foxxy Cleopatra]

Originally posted by jc7721
I disagree. At the recent ACS meeting in Chicago, there was much discussion among the surgeons, and program directors, about how the idea that "surgery isn't competitive/anyone can get in" does not apply this year. This meeting was one week ago and already the volume of applications is much higher than in previous years. Unfilled spots in GS will be a thing of the past.

I agree with you. I think people still remember the 2001 match when they state that general surgery is not competitive. Last year, only 9 programs/ 11 spots went unfilled. It could be argued that PDs made longer ranklists, however, the people I know who did not match were not the "least qualified" in board scores/grades, but those who ranked <3 programs, thinking that it would be easy to obtain a spot. There are people applying now that would not be doing so if it weren't for the 80-hour workweek. Though I think that in itself is a mistake, the applicant pool will be up regardless.

 

[HMD]

[/B][/QUOTE]...the people I know who did not match were not the "least qualified" in board scores/grades, but those who ranked <3 programs.[/B]

JC and Foxxy Cleopatra,
Thank you for your comments. Since there are so many more and better applicants this year, my problem is that not only might I not match, but I also might not even be invited for the interview, because programs use USMLE scores in the initial screening process to weed out the less qualified applicants, and mine are 196/193. So, even if I want to rank 10-15 programs, I won't have the opportunity to do so, because I might not interview in so many. Have you got any thoughts on that, please? I am getting really worried now and I applied to surgery because I really like it, not for the hours. I also stayed away from the competitive programs and mainly applied to the community based ones, although some of them could be competitive.

 

[blood&guts]

I agree with the previous posts. Surgery has changed over the last few years and has become much more competitive than it was 2 years ago. Last years unfilled spots were some smaller programs. So one can not rely on the fact that surgery is a easy specialty to match in regardless of academic success. However on that note i think all applicants that truly wnat to go into surgery will find a spot out there in a program that is right for them.

 

[dj_smooth]

what about doing a prelim year in surgery? i've heard that MAY be a route for those wanting to do surgery but may have lower scores...i've also heard that isn't a very good way too. i wouldn't object to applying to a community program, but they also be filled with gunners too?

 

[HMD]

I was thinking about the "preliminary route" as well, but I already applied exclusively to categorical positions. Would adding the preliminary track now confuse the PDs? Will they assume I am also applying to the advanced specialties from PG-2, besides surgery, and that's why I am adding preliminary?

I heard that sometimes programs offer a preliminary position, if they think they are not going to accept you for a categorical one, but does that happen at/after the interview, or even before?

Can anybody help me out? Should I add preliminary tracks for the purpose of increasing my chances in those programs?

 

[HMD]

Does anybody have any suggestions at all?

I greatly appreciate your input.

 

[slickster]

dude,
take a deep breath and relax. board scores near 200 should be good enough to get you in somewhere. app's are up this year, but you'll still match if you rank 11 programs. not worth freaking out about. in the end everything works out one way or another.
good luck

 

[vent]

HMD
I am in the same boots. I have extensive surgical experience abroad, some publ., grants, but unfortunately low score, lower than yours (first pass).

I was thinking if Preliminary route can be a backdoor for us to enter a cathegorical program? Please any opinion welcomed

By the way HMD I was receently offered a nonaccredited fellowship in one of the top Universities, but I thought I have to decline it since they did not promise any other position after that.
I am thnking of preliminary now.

 

[HMD]

Vent,

Have you applied to any categorical positions in surgery at all, and if yes, have you had any interview invites yet? I applied on 15 October, but haven't heard from anybody, except for a number of rejections. That's why I am concerned about whether I should add preliminary tracks at this point, or even apply to another specialty.

BTW, if you were accepted into a fellowship program, why would you need to go through residency then?

 

[Larry Renal]

Just curious...what's the definition of a "categorical" position vs. a "preliminary" position? Thanks!

lar

 

[mpp]

Originally posted by Larry Renal
Just curious...what's the definition of a "categorical" position vs. a "preliminary" position? Thanks!

lar

Check the Surgery FAQ

 

[vent]

HMD

No I did not apply for cathegorical since I was spectical about my chances (may be I was wrong). The other disadvantage is that I do not have any US LOR, though one of my referees is a internatioanlly reknown Prof in Europe. So I was thinking about preliminary surgery first.

The fellowship I am offered is not accredited, which means it does not meet requirements for the Board certification. All it can give to me some is more experience and referencees from an "High-end" University. But some people told me that it is better to apply for preliminary since after that I will have a better chance.

I just wanted to know what are the chances after preliminary to be accepted into cath. program (in not pyramidal program) or what % of PGY1 stay out of board after 1 year? A guy in another forum told me that one must be a reeeeeeeal dump not to be shifted into PGY2. Anyway I do not beleive it.

 

[ICUDOC]

There are many, many categorical positions out there. With good evals, and good performance scores at 200 or better will certainly match. I think overall the applicant pool is of lower caliber, while I believe match rates are skewed. Friends of mine just 5-6 years ago with 230+ and AOA were not granted interivews at a handful of hte top programs. I was a few years behind them had >230 and interviewed at every single top program on both coasts.

In terms of a prelim year..I think it use to be a very good way to get into a better program than maybe you would have initially matched into....The reason being is that almost 20% of first year categoricals dropped out....Those spots were open, and filled with less competent residents. Curently 2 3rd year residents at Columbia are foreigh grads who did prelim years here. Both ****ty USMLEs..I think this willchange, as residency now is so much more forgiving....So a prelim year may not be as good of a method....just my 2 cents....

 

[vent]

............Curently 2 3rd year residents at Columbia are foreigh grads who did prelim years here. Both ****ty USMLEs..I think this willchange, as residency now is so much more forgiving....So a prelim year may not be as good of a method....just my 2 cents.... .....


ICUDOC thank you very much for your message and your opinion. But honestly I do not see from you message the arguments WHY IT WILL CHANGE?
Also, sorry, but what is ****ty USMLEs?? Is it high or low???