Vascular residency programs

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

bongoking

New Member
10+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2006
Messages
1
Reaction score
0
I'm looking for information on 6yr vascular surgery residency programs, as...thanks

Members don't see this ad.
 
I don't think we've come to the point where these 4+2 or 3+3 Vascular residency programs have started advertising that fact.

According to the ABS and the APDVS a select number of general surgery residencies will be allowed to pilot a 4+2 or a 3+3 vascular residency. A friend of mine at NYU is going to do that in 2007, but he's been told he still has to get boarded in General.

Good luck.
 
bongoking said:
I'm looking for information on 6yr vascular surgery residency programs, as...thanks
i think washu (amongst others) is thinking of doing this, although as the previous poster stated, not sure if they are doing it just yet.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
bongoking said:
I'm looking for information on 6yr vascular surgery residency programs, as...thanks
Would this even be an option for a DO in an osteopathic general surgery residency considering vascular? What about getting into an ACGME vascular fellowship the old fashion way? Thanks
 
Wash U is doing this...they are also sending a chief into a 4+2 thoracic this year....the chair seems to think that they will be fast tracking a bunch of stuff in the coming years. By far the most progressive academic program in this regard....although many people are skeptical of how this will work out.
 
bongoking said:
I'm looking for information on 6yr vascular surgery residency programs, as...thanks


I know that UT southwestern is also doing it
 
I'm not sure there's a point in having an integrated vascular surgery residency. That would be like having a urogynecology, uveitis (ophthalmology), or pediatric radiology integrated residency. Few medical students know their interests that specifically. Why not just do general surgery and then do a fellowship? During general surgery, you can refine your interests more.
 
Needleandthread said:
I'm not sure there's a point in having an integrated vascular surgery residency. That would be like having a urogynecology, uveitis (ophthalmology), or pediatric radiology integrated residency. Few medical students know their interests that specifically. Why not just do general surgery and then do a fellowship? During general surgery, you can refine your interests more.

I'd say it's more like having an integrated neurosurgery residency. Vascular has undergone an incredibly rapid change at my institution to an almost entirely non-operative specialty. As practiced at my program, it's skillset overlap with the rest of general surgery is rapidly diminishing. We joke about it being the second pathway to interventional radiology.

In seriousness, peripheral vascular work and AAAs's have gone substantially to stenting. Carotid's are rapidly heading that way as well. Dialysis access and amputations are the only big parts of their workload that aren't moving to percutaneous management.

I think a dedicated 5-year vascular residency a la ENT and ortho makes terrific sense.
 
DO_Surgeon said:
Would this even be an option for a DO in an osteopathic general surgery residency considering vascular? What about getting into an ACGME vascular fellowship the old fashion way? Thanks

No. To qualify for an ACGME fellowship you've got to do an ACGME residency. Aren't there any AOA-sponsored general surgery fellowships? I could've sworn I came across a DO CTS residency in the past.
 
Pilot Doc said:
I'd say it's more like having an integrated neurosurgery residency. Vascular has undergone an incredibly rapid change at my institution to an almost entirely non-operative specialty. As practiced at my program, it's skillset overlap with the rest of general surgery is rapidly diminishing. We joke about it being the second pathway to interventional radiology.

In seriousness, peripheral vascular work and AAAs's have gone substantially to stenting. Carotid's are rapidly heading that way as well. Dialysis access and amputations are the only big parts of their workload that aren't moving to percutaneous management.

I think a dedicated 5-year vascular residency a la ENT and ortho makes terrific sense.
I guess the only issue that I see with an integrated vascular program is the ability to get into the abdomen w/ things like mesenteric ischemia, and AAA's that aren't amenable to endovascular repair. Don't we get most of our exposure to the abdomen in the chief year?
 
SteadyEddy said:
I guess the only issue that I see with an integrated vascular program is the ability to get into the abdomen w/ things like mesenteric ischemia, and AAA's that aren't amenable to endovascular repair. Don't we get most of our exposure to the abdomen in the chief year?

I actually don't think this will be an issue, but lets say for arguments sake that the new breed of vascular "surgeons" can't operate in the abdomen after 5 years. Here's what I would propose.

1) Have general surgery perform the abdominal access just like is done now for anterior spinal exposures, or
2) Programs could establish fellowships in "Operative Vascular Surgery" - no joke - and these operations could become referral cases.
 
I remember that there was a very active discussion on this issue in the VS world before the integrated pathway was approved.

This would in all likelihood be the end to the 'jack of all trades' community vascular surgeon who does VS during the day but covers regular ER and trauma call with the rest of the department. (Probably pretty similar to the situation urology is in today.)

While I am not a surgeon, I am under the impression that our VS fellows get plenty of 'abdominal time' during their open AAAs and dead gut cases. (and just like GS will call in VS if they run into a vascular issue, there is nothing wrong with VS asking GS or onc-surg to help out with some bowel work).
 
f_w said:
While I am not a surgeon, I am under the impression that our VS fellows get plenty of 'abdominal time' during their open AAAs and dead gut cases. (and just like GS will call in VS if they run into a vascular issue, there is nothing wrong with VS asking GS or onc-surg to help out with some bowel work).

I haven't encountered that situation yet in my residency, but I don't know if a Vascular Surgeon, who is a fully-trained and boarded General Surgeon, would necessary call General Surgery in to resect dead bowel if they were taking the patient for, say, a mesenteric bypass.

I guess it depends on the setting as I can envision the community-hospital model of "spreading the wealth" would require a call to General Surgery for that exact situation.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
but I don't know if a Vascular Surgeon, who is a fully-trained and boarded General Surgeon, would necessary call General Surgery in to resect dead bowel if they were taking the patient for, say, a mesenteric bypass.

I guess that would be the difference between going through the entire GS residency first vs. the 3+3 approach some programs are trying to implement. My comment was rather meant in the way that a future 3+3 specialized VS might be more open to asking for a hand in this kind of case (just like neurosurg spine surgeons ask an ortho colleague to put in hardware or an ENT to expose the floor of the sphenoid for them).

I guess it depends on the setting as I can envision the community-hospital model of "spreading the wealth" would require a call to General Surgery for that exact situation.

In addition to wealth, you will spread the risk as well.
 
****** said:
I haven't encountered that situation yet in my residency, but I don't know if a Vascular Surgeon, who is a fully-trained and boarded General Surgeon, would necessary call General Surgery in to resect dead bowel if they were taking the patient for, say, a mesenteric bypass.

I guess it depends on the setting as I can envision the community-hospital model of "spreading the wealth" would require a call to General Surgery for that exact situation.

I did a vascular placement at a major academic hospital a couple of months ago and i asked the vascular surgeons there this very same question. They said that they always call in general surgery to deal with dead bowel... bypass or not. However, I know vascular surgeons who still work in academic centres but do some general as well... so I assume they deal with bowel themselves.

It probably just varies from hospital to hospital.
 
Needleandthread said:
I'm not sure there's a point in having an integrated vascular surgery residency. That would be like having a urogynecology, uveitis (ophthalmology), or pediatric radiology integrated residency. Few medical students know their interests that specifically. Why not just do general surgery and then do a fellowship? During general surgery, you can refine your interests more.

If more of the subspecialties that currently require 5 years GS + a fellowship switch to an integrated model, how will that impact students going into surgery? Would they have to pick a subspecialty before applying for residency? Or would there still be the option to do GS and decide on which fellowship route to go during residency? Would the latter option exclude one from doing residency at a strong academic center--i.e. would most of the university programs go the way of vascular at WashU?
 
I don't see much benefit in proposed "integrated" (read: shortcut) residencies for surgical training. Really what's one more year overall to be board certified and fully competent in both General Surgery and Vascular Surgery?
 
What is the current length of a vascular surgery fellowship? 2 years?
 
burberrybrit said:
What is the current length of a vascular surgery fellowship? 2 years?

Hi there,
Depending on the program, a vascular fellowship can be 1, 2 or three years.
njbmd :)
 
In talking to our fellow, he mentioned that he had absolutely no interest in doing general surgerical procedures. His only argument against the integrated programs is that if/when the poop hits the fan during an angio, he has the training to deal with it. Our Vascular attendings say that you don't really learn how to operate on the belly until your Chief year.
Misterioso said:
I don't see much benefit in proposed "integrated" (read: shortcut) residencies for surgical training. Really what's one more year overall to be board certified and fully competent in both General Surgery and Vascular Surgery?
 
Recently there were 3 approved pathways to vascular:
1. General surgery + vascular fellowship with board cert in GS and vascular
2. 3+3 cert in vascular, primarily for those already in training
3. 0+5 cert in vascular, program set to begin July 2006

I don't know which programs are implementing the latter two, and I don't know of any list that outlines these programs. If such a list is available, please post. Thanks
 
Info from SVS on the pathways to vascular surgery certification.

http://www.vascularweb.org/_CONTRIB...Certificate/Primary_Certificate_Approved.html

Unfortunately, no listing of which programs are offering which pathway... :(
It appears the only way for someone to get into the 3+3 program right now is to continue at their existing institution as a vascular resident.

Have not heard about programs offering the 5 year primary certificate...
 
****** said:
No. To qualify for an ACGME fellowship you've got to do an ACGME residency. Aren't there any AOA-sponsored general surgery fellowships? I could've sworn I came across a DO CTS residency in the past.

This is simply not true. You can be a DO that has completed an AOA accreditied surgical residency and subsequently complete an ACGME fellowship.
 
exlap said:
Info from SVS on the pathways to vascular surgery certification.

http://www.vascularweb.org/_CONTRIB...Certificate/Primary_Certificate_Approved.html

Unfortunately, no listing of which programs are offering which pathway... :(
It appears the only way for someone to get into the 3+3 program right now is to continue at their existing institution as a vascular resident.

Have not heard about programs offering the 5 year primary certificate...

University of Michigan is discussing the 5y primary certificate (with an additional year of research/"academic development time" in the middle of the training--6y total) and will likely start their first "Vascular Surgery Intern" July 2007.
 
this is all very interesting but can someone explain as to what the main difference between vascular surgeon and general surgeon is...thanks
 
LaCirujana said:
University of Michigan is discussing the 5y primary certificate (with an additional year of research/"academic development time" in the middle of the training--6y total) and will likely start their first "Vascular Surgery Intern" July 2007.

Does this mean that students interested in this training paradigm will be going through the Match this year? Will U. Michigan announce this somewhere?

Also, did anyone go to the APDVS annual meeting back on March 31? That day was dedicated to the new Primary Certificate. One of the sessions was entitled "How the Match will Work" and was given by John Eidt, MD.

http://apdvs.vascularweb.org/APDVS_...ual_Meeting/Resident_Annual_Meeting_2006.html

Perhaps someone could share what the presentation was?
 
In the United States and Canada, vascular surgery fellowship used to require previous general surgery training. This could be accomplished by 5 years of general surgery plus 1 or 2 years of vascular surgery. This approach allowed the trainee to be eligible for both general and vascular surgery certification.

General surgery includes some training in vascular surgery, but at least at my institution, most of that training is in open procedures.

For example, AV fistulas, amputations, (more junior house staff), carotid endarterectomies, and the rare open AAA repair would be performed by general surgery residents. However, most of the endovascular procedures (e.g., using a stentgraft to exclude a AAA) were the exclusive province of the vascular surgery fellows, who also did significant amounts of the other procedures.

So, only those with vascular surgery fellowship experience would be qualified to do the endovascular procedures, and these surgeons are also presumably going to be better than those with only general surgery experience to perform the open procedures.

Hope that helps,
BR

GuP said:
this is all very interesting but can someone explain as to what the main difference between vascular surgeon and general surgeon is...thanks
 
Blue Rover said:
In the United States and Canada, vascular surgery fellowship used to require previous general surgery training. This could be accomplished by 5 years of general surgery plus 1 or 2 years of vascular surgery. This approach allowed the trainee to be eligible for both general and vascular surgery certification.

General surgery includes some training in vascular surgery, but at least at my institution, most of that training is in open procedures.

For example, AV fistulas, amputations, (more junior house staff), carotid endarterectomies, and the rare open AAA repair would be performed by general surgery residents. However, most of the endovascular procedures (e.g., using a stentgraft to exclude a AAA) were the exclusive province of the vascular surgery fellows, who also did significant amounts of the other procedures.

So, only those with vascular surgery fellowship experience would be qualified to do the endovascular procedures, and these surgeons are also presumably going to be better than those with only general surgery experience to perform the open procedures.

Hope that helps,
BR

Any info on where the 3+3 programs will be? I've e-mailed about 15 programs, but have only received info back from 3 and they intend to remain 5+2.
 
Docgeorge said:
Any info on where the 3+3 programs will be? I've e-mailed about 15 programs, but have only received info back from 3 and they intend to remain 5+2.

I think that's the key question for now. Can you share which 3 programs you've contacted that intend to remain 5+2?
 
Blue Rover said:
I think that's the key question for now. Can you share which 3 programs you've contacted that intend to remain 5+2?

KU, Jobst, and MCW.
 
Top