Vet school in Australia or Caribbean ?

[esojoe2]

Hi guys,
I have been following this forum for some time now and I finally decided to join because I would like some advice on which vet school to go to.
A bit more about me, I just finished my undergrad from a university in Alberta, Canada.
I took a Bachelor of Science in Biology and my overall GPA was 3.4 which is not the greatest.
I have always wanted to become a vet, but during my early undergrad years, I didn't study hard enough it really hurt my overall GPA.
Here's my situation. I applied to both WCVM and UCVM for September 2013. Unfortunately I didn't get into either schools. I was disappointed but I also understand that it is very competitive and my GPA wasn't the greatest and I only had one year volunteer experience at the zoo and also at an emergency vet clinic. I have no large animal experience and I know that is a big disadvantage.
Anyway, I have decided to consider schools outside Canada and I already applied to the University of Melbourne in Australia for January 2014. It is also a 4 year program and it is one of the best in the world. however, the problem is the tuition cost which is about $52,000/ year without living cost and additional supplies. That is ridiculously high and I have spoken to some vets and they say it is worth it in the end. I know I would be able to get student loans but that amount of money seems as if I am digging a hole that i would never get out of. Mind you I worked my way through undergrad to pay tuition, and i wouldn't be able to in Australia. Either way I already applied and I should hear back from them relatively soon.
The other option I have considered in St. Matthew's University at the Grand cayman island.
The program seems really good there and i like the idea of coming back to Saskatoon during the clinical year. Also, the size of the classroom is about 15-20 students which makes it easier to develop close relationships with your instructor and classmates. The overall tuition would be $100,000 less than that of Melbourne.
However, the school is not fully accredited and graduates have to take two more licensing test before the NAVLE.
It seems logical to go to St Matthews but I am afraid that by the end of it, I would have a difficult time getting a job plus the extra hassle of taking the additional tests before the NAVLE.
I have spoken to quite a bit of people and some say it doesn't really matter where you go provided you pass the NAVLE. in fact one vet even said I should go to the school with the lowest tuition. I already sent in my application but I am yet to write my GRE test.
If I were to go outside Canada, I would have to use student loans and lines of credit so from a financial perspective i'm now leaning towards St. Matthews.
My last option is to wait and reapply in Canada for next year. I failed to mention that i am only 21 so age is not a factor. But it is hard finding a job with just my biology degree so far and although I have a good labor job for the summer that pays well, I would prefer to start school in January rather than waiting and applying next year because I would still be applying with the same grades I have now. The only thing I could do is get large animal experience but that's equally hard to get when you live in the city.

so I would like the opinion from current vet students, or anyone that has genuine information and suggestions.

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[Escalla]

Welcome!!! Was this your first time applying to UCVM & WCVM? It really depends on your background and your plan, but I would definitely recommend trying again with these schools here before going overseas. Did you interview at either one?

 

[wildcatj]

I would NOT take on the extra debt to go to school internationally. And I say that very very strongly. The debt you accumulate going to your province's school is going to be actually doable. Going anywhere outside of that would be extremely short sighted in my opinion. You've only applied in Canada once (right?) and you admit that your experience is lacking. I would attempt to apply in country at least a few more times if I were you before I gave up and applied internationally. Take a year to gain more experience and really beef up your application. And if you have to apply 2 or 3 more times I say do it. The wages you gain by being able to work for a few more years are not going to cover that astronomical debt. If you go someplace else I would bet you will be kicking yourself in 5 years when you have to pay back all that debt and you didn't give in country schools another shot.
It's also a lot harder to get your license when you aren't going to an accredited school. If you're looking at the Caribbean, why not look at one of the other schools that is accredited. (I wouldn't actually recommend this anyways, but why make your life harder if you're considering island schools anyways?)
Anywho, just my two cents. Good luck with your decision!

 

[that redhead]

I would NOT take on the extra debt to go to school internationally. And I say that very very strongly. The debt you accumulate going to your province's school is going to be actually doable. Going anywhere outside of that would be extremely short sighted in my opinion. You've only applied in Canada once (right?) and you admit that your experience is lacking. I would attempt to apply in country at least a few more times if I were you before I gave up and applied internationally. Take a year to gain more experience and really beef up your application. And if you have to apply 2 or 3 more times I say do it. The wages you gain by being able to work for a few more years are not going to cover that astronomical debt. If you go someplace else I would bet you will be kicking yourself in 5 years when you have to pay back all that debt and you didn't give in country schools another shot.
It's also a lot harder to get your license when you aren't going to an accredited school. If you're looking at the Caribbean, why not look at one of the other schools that is accredited. (I wouldn't actually recommend this anyways, but why make your life harder if you're considering island schools anyways?)
Anywho, just my two cents. Good luck with your decision!

Haha, I kind of did the opposite of this...I only got in internationally (US to Canada) on my first try, so I'm biting the $52k+/year bullet. My grades were significantly poorer, though, and I wanted to start so I could finish, if that makes sense. I wouldn't go to an unaccredited school myself, but that's a personal decision (those extra licensing exams are expensive, too). If you don't mind going Caribbean, why not apply to SGU or Ross, which are accredited?

I think applying again to your province is probably the wisest. Bulk up in your weak area and try again.

 

[esojoe2]

Hi guys, thanks for your reply.

And yes this was my first time applying to both schools. I regret waiting till my last year of undergrad but there are some circumstances that prevented me earlier on from volunteering on so on.
Anyway, my prerequisite GPA for Calgary was 3.1 and my overall GPA for the last 4 terms was only 3.3!
Mind you, my GPA for my last year was 3.8 ( better the end that the beginning lol). I didn't interview in either schools which sucks.
For Saskatoon, I ranked 60 out of 160 Alberta applicants and they only interview 20. In fact I recently got my letter of rejection and it stated that "If you are still enrolled in university, you have the opportunity to improve your overall grade point average in the next academic
year. However, if you have already graduated, you will need to make some careful decisions regarding future enrollment in additional courses. Once you have completed four or more years of undergraduate work, it becomes increasingly difficult to improve your overall academic standing as the additional years have less impact in the mathematical calculation of averages".
I even contemplated moving to Saskatoon to get a job so I can apply as a resident but they also only admit 20 residents so there is no real advantage based on my GPA.

Trust me, I really don't like the idea of being $300,000 in debt. But in Australia, they regard a GPA of 3.2 as competitive so I guess if I want the easy way to vet school, it comes with a price tag of about $300,000. I don't want to be that much in debt in fact, I hate being in debt and that's another reason i worked during summer and during school terms to pay off my undergrad degree. I just wish I had a good balance earlier on.
Moving forward, I forgot to mention that I applied to the U of A for the Bsc animal Science program. Its supposed to be 4 years but since I already have my degree, it would only take me 2 years, because I would not have to take the optional classes and the the first year of general sciences.
I could start in September and apply again for next year. I don't want to give up on my dream of becoming a veterinarian but sometimes it seems like it may never become my reality.
I'm also considering turning my volunteer position at the vet clinic into an actual job so I can actually still gain more experiences and get paid for it. It's hard to be motivated to keep volunteering, but I know I shouldn't give up.
I dislike not knowing my future plans and its driving me crazy so I need to make a decision soon.

Thanks guys for your advice, I genuinely appreciate it !!

 

[Coquette22]

It may be worth looking at OVC and AVC and how they determine GPA and grades. If you'd be competitive, consider moving to establish residency. Far cheaper than Australia or the Caribbean.

 

[jmo1012]

i'd reapply at least a few more times before turning down a canadian tuition. do a file review, find out what the schools would like to see you improve on.

if you apply caribbean, i strongly recommend against applying to SMU. sure i am definitely a bit biased ( haha) but heres the thing - that not being accredited thing is a MUCH bigger deal then it may feel. its something i for sure should have taken way more seriously when i accepted to SGU (they received it in Sept my 1st term). i have yet to meet an SGU or Ross grad that said foreign licensing was no big deal. its a rough route. its extremely expensive. its time consuming. it can take over a year to get a spot to take the ECFVG. you need to really think about the foreign licensing stuff and talk heart to heart with some vets that have jumped those hoops (and not just the ones on here from SMU). i'm sure its a great school, but the reality is that there are 2 other great caribbean schools that have earned accreditation.

also, 15-20 people in a class may sound warm and fuzzy, but there are many days when my 70 person class feels WAY too small (and by many i mean a substantial amount of the semester )

 

[Escalla]

Hi guys, thanks for your reply.

And yes this was my first time applying to both schools. I regret waiting till my last year of undergrad but there are some circumstances that prevented me earlier on from volunteering on so on.
Anyway, my prerequisite GPA for Calgary was 3.1 and my overall GPA for the last 4 terms was only 3.3!
Mind you, my GPA for my last year was 3.8 ( better the end that the beginning lol). I didn't interview in either schools which sucks.
For Saskatoon, I ranked 60 out of 160 Alberta applicants and they only interview 20. In fact I recently got my letter of rejection and it stated that "If you are still enrolled in university, you have the opportunity to improve your overall grade point average in the next academic
year. However, if you have already graduated, you will need to make some careful decisions regarding future enrollment in additional courses. Once you have completed four or more years of undergraduate work, it becomes increasingly difficult to improve your overall academic standing as the additional years have less impact in the mathematical calculation of averages".
I even contemplated moving to Saskatoon to get a job so I can apply as a resident but they also only admit 20 residents so there is no real advantage based on my GPA.

For WCVM, they will interview roughly double the number of seats available (so 40ish) for AB, BC and SK. I would recommend making an appt for a file review with Dr. Grahn as I've heard they can be really helpful if you contact them to chat about how to improve. It's definitely far from hopeless! Moving to SK and applying from there will give you a better shot at an interview due to the lower number of applicants for the same number of interview spots, but I would really recommend talking with them. They're very open and honest. As for Calgary, it's strictly the grades that get you the interview, but since the MMI/essay is worth such a large portion of your overall score (65% I believe), grades matter a lot less in the end.

Like others have said, I would really strongly advise against going overseas if you can at all help it. 10k/yr tuition here vs. 50k/yr is such a huge difference that I think you need to do what ever you can to stay in Canada, even if that is moving east to establish residency for another school. You would be surprised what you can accomplish in one year! Don't give up on Canada just yet.

 

[esojoe2]

Thanks for the responses !
I have decided to speak to the admission department of both U of C and U of S before making a final decision. I would hear back from Australia in a month so by then I would have spoken to both schools. I also think it is important to know why I didn't get accepted to either school before seeking a way out. If I need to improve my grades then I would go to the U of A for the Animal Health program. however, If I need to improve my volunteer experience then I would decide to work in a vet clinic.
I would keep you guys posted.
Thanks again

 

[nichocj]

Make sure you are actually able to get student loans.... I'm also Canadian (from Ontario) and am having a terrible time getting student loans; I've looked for private student loan places but can't seem to find any, and I can only get $70,000 from the bank MAX (that's with a co-signer). So its going to be a very tight squeeze for me (I'm going to Dublin in September, tuition is 45,000/year) Student loans are much harder to come by in Canada than in the states... Unless of course you know something I don't!!

 

[stargazer4117]

Hey esojoe,

How did it go with Melbourne? I'm just wondering because my situation is a lot like yours.

 

[Escalla]

Hey esojoe,

How did it go with Melbourne? I'm just wondering because my situation is a lot like yours.

You're probably best to send them a private message since they haven't been online in months and probably won't see this.

 

[GeekOut4Animals]

I am from Wisconsin and am in Australia going to Murdoch Uni! Its fully internationally accredited and I LOVE IT HERE!! Western Australia is amazing!! I do get really good student loans from the US so that is something I didn't have to worry about… after graduation will come the big worry! But I am able to work here at an emergency vet clinic while in vet school and it hasn't been to bad! You can send me a PM or send a message to [email protected] if you have any australia questions…. ALSO!! You can read my blog that I started: http://cheeseheadvetstudentinoz.blogspot.com This should help you answer at least some questions before you email I try to cover all the steps I went through in applying and getting here! GOOD LUCK WITH EVERYTHING

 

[vetmedhopeful2019]

Hey Guys!

I am in a similar situation... I have been accepted to St. Matthews, Melbourne and Queensland Veterinary. It is really coming down to either St. Matthews or Melbourne! I am stressing out over the decision! Anyone else on here in a similar situation or has been accepted to Melbourne 2019 class?

Thanks!

 

[battie]

Just as part of the perspective for the unaccredited route.

The vet I work for was born and raised in Egypt and went to the vet school in Cairo. She then moved to England and then here a few years ago. She straight up told me to not go to international schools if I could avoid it. Use them as a last resort sort of thing if I want to come back home to practice. The extra testing and hoops she said she had to go through was hardly worth it. Granted, she is in a better situation here than she was in Egypt or England, but it took a long time, a lot of money, and just general issues as a whole to be able to practice here in the US. I don't know how it is for someone to try to move to Canada to practice, but I don't imagine it would be much easier if at all.

 

[Skimble]

I didn't apply to the Australian schools (I have a son, I don't want to be that far from my family for 4 years), but have you really looked into all it entails to become licensed after graduating from a non-accredited school? Everything I've read says it's expensive and exceedingly difficult. I'd look up stats on that before making any decisions. It would be terrible to spend all that time and money on vet school and never being able to actually be a vet! I've heard very good things about the Australian schools though.

 

[blackangussteak]

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[vetmedhopeful2019]

I've done a lot of research regarding St. Matthew's, and I'm really impressed by their current students and graduates. I don't think you should automatically write it off due to it not yet being accredited. It depends on where you want to practice on what tests (besides the NAVLE) you would have to take. The several graduates I've spoken with haven't had issues with finding jobs or internships after graduation.

I think it is important to research about what you are comfortable with. Personally, the amount of money I would save in tuition/living expenses and time saved (total 3 1/2 years) made me comfortable with taking an extra test. Since 40 states in the US are PAVE states and more are continuing to accept the test, and it is taken during your 6th or 7th semester at SMU, I found that it is worth it to me for my situation. I believe Canadians take the ECFVG and the NAVLE. (Not 100% sure though).

Thank you for this reply! Where did you end up attending school? (If you don't mind me asking).

 

[Caia]

Hey Guys!

I am in a similar situation... I have been accepted to St. Matthews, Melbourne and Queensland Veterinary. It is really coming down to either St. Matthews or Melbourne! I am stressing out over the decision! Anyone else on here in a similar situation or has been accepted to Melbourne 2019 class?

Thanks!

Are you Canadian as well or no?

 

[Caia]

I've done a lot of research regarding St. Matthew's, and I'm really impressed by their current students and graduates. I don't think you should automatically write it off due to it not yet being accredited. It depends on where you want to practice on what tests (besides the NAVLE) you would have to take. The several graduates I've spoken with haven't had issues with finding jobs or internships after graduation.

I think it is important to research about what you are comfortable with. Personally, the amount of money I would save in tuition/living expenses and time saved (total 3 1/2 years) made me comfortable with taking an extra test. Since 40 states in the US are PAVE states and more are continuing to accept the test, and it is taken during your 6th or 7th semester at SMU, I found that it is worth it to me for my situation. I believe Canadians take the ECFVG and the NAVLE. (Not 100% sure though).

It's not exactly as simple as just "taking an extra test."

Anyone that is considering going to an unaccredited school needs to do their research on the ECFVG and PAVE and what exactly they would need to do. My school hosted the clinical skills portion for the ECFVG over the summer and it had a terrible, terrible pass rate.

Honestly, I wouldn't advise anyone to go to an unaccredited school and taking on that much debt is only very slightly better (I wouldn't do either, tbh). As ridiculous as accreditation has been lately, it is there for a reason and ignoring it shouldn't be taken lightly.

 

[vetmedhopeful2019]

Are you Canadian as well or no?

Yes I am a Canadian. I have talked to a recent graduate from SMU. She is currently practicing in Canada. She said the examinations are tedious but you can get through them. Just need to be well organized and know when the exact dates the tests are held so you can get them done as quickly as possible.
I am leaning towards SMU, as I cannot afford the nearly 1/4 million dollar tuition on top of living expenses in Australia. I'm skyping with a recent graduate of SMU here shortly, i'll make sure to post her response just in case someone else is in the same situation as I am in the near future!

 

[Caia]

Yes I am a Canadian. I have talked to a recent graduate from SMU. She is currently practicing in Canada. She said the examinations are tedious but you can get through them. Just need to be well organized and know when the exact dates the tests are held so you can get them done as quickly as possible.
I am leaning towards SMU, as I cannot afford the nearly 1/4 million dollar tuition on top of living expenses in Australia. I'm skyping with a recent graduate of SMU here shortly, i'll make sure to post her response just in case someone else is in the same situation as I am in the near future!

And you're in Western Canada as well?

It's obviously your decision, but I hope you don't give up on the two programs here too early. Best of luck.

 

[blackangussteak]

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[vetmedhopeful2019]

I respect your opinion.

I've spent a lot of time speaking with graduates who have taken these tests and I feel comfortable going into this situation. I've researched what states accept which exam, the steps to each, the cost, etc. I'm not saying this will be easy or even encouraging anyone that this is the way to go, but I think the OP should do research to find if that is something they feel they can deal with.

The pros for me personally outweigh the cons. I didn't jump into making the decision to apply to SMU lightly or quickly.

Sorry for the delayed reply! I am currently in the application process for SMU, not at any school yet

This is the same situation for me. The pros outweigh the cons! Well best of luck! Maybe i'll see you in January or in April!!

I skyped a recent graduate from SMU today. Here are some brief points she told me about SMU (just want to help those who have to make a similar decision:

-She said it is 7 semesters, 12 weeks on 2 or 3 weeks off, and then 4 or 5 weeks during winter holidays. So therefore it is accelerated! (get done faster than US or Canadian schools )
-She said that the classes are everyday 8am to roughly mid afternoon (depends on the day, the schedule is constantly changing so you need to make sure you look online)
-She stayed in the halls the entire time, she loved it. Said she was three doors down from her best friend, and she had her own bathroom. A bus runs right by the halls, for $2 CI to take you to class each morning. Some students bike and or have cars.
-Said she never felt scared or insecure on the island, very safe
-During semesters you have blocks, blocks are where a visiting professor teaches you a block of the course for ~8 weeks (half a semester), she was upfront and said they are brutal because they are board accredited profs, so they know their stuff and its a lot of info thrown at you BUT you can get through them!
-She recently passed her PAVE exam, she said she just studied her butt off and past it her first time
-She heard that the BSCE exam may be easier than her PAVE, prior student failed PAVE three times but wrote the BSCE and passed her first time
-She said the CPE exam can be annoying, there have been horror stories about the exam but if you know it you know it. Its all about being confident, and getting the dates in order (being organized so you can get it done as quickly as possible)
-SMU offers the MBA program through Davenport. This is for USA students so they can be eligible for government funding. But any student can do it. Its roughly $1200 per semester (I believe...may be more) and each class is 7 weeks long. There are 5 prerequisite courses, 6 core courses and then depending on what you want to designate in additional courses). You can choose to do just one course per semester or if you're crazy you can do two classes per semester (haha!). Most students are still studying/completing their MBA after SMU, but its pretty sweet at the end of it all you'll have two degrees (just a ton of work!). Not sure if i'll be going that route yet, but you never know!
-I've recently looked into licensing for Canada and I believe its the same for USA for ECFVG. You have to write your BSCE exam first, then able to write NALVE or CPE (Can choose to write CPE or NALVE first whichever you prefer)
-She said to make sure to study hard and get good grades in order to get your first choice for clinics (which is pretty obvious.. but just thought I should mention) Most students get their first choice
-At the end of it all I asked her if she felt confident in the skills and education she obtained from SMU, and she said a definite YES! That she doesn't regret her decision, that she feels confident and happy that she went to SMU.

Sorry for the novel! There is also additional information,feel free to private message me or what not, or I can get you in contact with her. I'm sure she wouldn't mind! Just thought it would be helpful for those lost souls who were like me! haha Best of luck to all!

 

[vetmedhopeful2019]

And you're in Western Canada as well?

It's obviously your decision, but I hope you don't give up on the two programs here too early. Best of luck.

I am from Eastern Canada. I already graduated from my undergrad. All my courses are for pre-med though (initially wanted to be a people doc), therefore I do not qualify for the pre-reqs for AVC, or Guelph. I would have to go back to school for approximately two more years (because most pre-reqs have to be completed while you're attending the school full time) or else I would definitely be staying in Canada to complete my degree!! Just don't want to spend more money than I have to, or waste my time! Also want to be a vet ASAP!

 

[jmo1012]

i know several veterinarians who have been set back YEARS in their careers because of foreign licensing exams.

 

[Felixor90]

i know several veterinarians who have been set back YEARS in their careers because of foreign licensing exams.

Same here. I've also heard from one of those vets that their goal is to get you to fail. During the surgery portion of the exam, they purposefully (in a very sneaky way) bumped into her post-scrub and failed her for not rescrubbing for another x amount of minutes. She managed to pass it on her second try only by not allowing anyone around her and keeping an eye out for sabotage. She's a very brilliant scientist so if she had trouble passing it, I'd be worried.

 

[Coquette22]

I am from Eastern Canada. I already graduated from my undergrad. All my courses are for pre-med though (initially wanted to be a people doc), therefore I do not qualify for the pre-reqs for AVC, or Guelph. I would have to go back to school for approximately two more years (because most pre-reqs have to be completed while you're attending the school full time) or else I would definitely be staying in Canada to complete my degree!! Just don't want to spend more money than I have to, or waste my time! Also want to be a vet ASAP!

No sarcasm meant but why do pre-med classes not count as pre-vet? I did many of the same classes as the pre-meds at Dalhousie.

 

[DVMDream]

Just don't want to spend more money than I have to, or waste my time! Also want to be a vet ASAP!

Uhh, this will probably fall on deaf ears since everyone has ignored everyone else saying the same things so far, but by going somewhere that is not AVMA accredited you will be spending more money and more time. The extra exams you have to take should not be shrugged off and just thought of as "oh well, shouldn't be too hard". I know someone who went through the whole process... it took him 2 years (if I remember correctly) and ~$10,000 to get through everything. And you can't get financial assistance for that 10K, you have to pay that out of pocket which means you essentially have to be independently rich in order to complete these exams or have a lot of money saved up prior to vet school. The CPE exam cost is currently $6600 for 2016 administration (it appears to go up by $200 each year), so by the time you get through 3 years of vet school you are looking at $7200 for ONE part of the ECFVG exam and that does not include any fees the supporting school applies where you are taking the exam.

Also, the vet I mentioned above told me that the examiners hover over you during the surgery section and they will randomly decide when to "check" on something to see if you have done it right... the tiniest of things can get you failed (even if it isn't something that would harm a patient or isn't necessarily "wrong", if they simply don't like it then they can fail you). He said some people were failed right in the middle of closing up their surgery patient and told to leave and another surgeon scrubbed in to finish the closure for them. It isn't some simple straightforward exam and I have heard from him and others on here that have known people who have gone through it that it is rather brutal.

Also, 50% of people who apply for, get accepted to and pass the ECFVG take 2 years to complete the entire program. The pass rate of the BCSE exam is 45%. The first time pass rate of the CPE (fourth step of ECFVG) is 25%... you have less than a 1/4 chance of actually passing the full exam the first time you take it... those odds are not good.

Here is a link to where I got some of this information: https://www.avma.org/professionaldevelopment/education/foreign/documents/faq.pdf


I will stick by what others have said, if you can prevent yourself from having to take these exams.. DO IT. It is not worth the decent chance that you won't be able to pass one of the above exams, just not worth it.