Vet School Student Debt out of control?

[annie800]

I thought you needed a PhD to specialize in nutrition? I volunteered with a resident who is working on a PhD in equine nutrition after her DVM...

I wonder how much non-vet animal nutritionists make?

I want to know too!

I posted about nutrition in here a while back and not many replies. I didn't even know it was a residency opportunity w/board certification. I thought it was a phD/research track. I honestly had no idea that it had potential for such high salary either. It's my field of interest as well. It seems reeeeeeeeeeeeally competitive though with that type of salary, so either way, I like some other fields as well. No discrimination.

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[sumstorm]

One thing to think about: a study by AAHA found that general practice increases by 6% during recessions while specialties decreased ~20% during recession (particularly the higher paying specialities)

Howeve, AAHA didn't think the cost of vet education was bad and that it was equivalent to med school cost to income ratios at $0.06 to the $1.00 but I am not sure I believe that, particularly since thier review only included SA practices.

 

[Bill59]

1.) Do the number of years required for board cerification speciality vary for the different fields, ie: nutritionist, surgery, cardiology, ER med?

In most cases it's a 3 year residency. To get accepted into a residency you usually need a 1 year rotating internship. So you're looking at 4 years after DVM/VMD. In general.

How do you apply to these intern/resident programs? Can you graduate from any American Vet school to qualify?

Most applications are through the Veterinary Internship and Residency Matching Program. Pathology is one notable exception but there are others. Specific requirements, such as which schools you get your degree, are set by the individual program.

3.) Where are these programs? Are they at a university or in government or private settings?

Most are at universities, some are in private practice. See the match site for details, you can search for individual programs.

 

[sumstorm]

Most applications are through the Veterinary Internship and Residency Matching Program. Pathology is one notable exception but there are others. Specific requirements, such as which schools you get your degree, are set by the individual program.

Apparently most of the lab animal ones aren't throuh match either; private application

 

[gilch]

Yes debt is going to be crazy...plus tons of schools are cutting higher ed budgets. It's something to think about when choosing a school. Most schools don't let you lock in on a tuition rate, do they? So a school with a state getting tons of budget cuts might have a greater tuition hike than one that got a bit of a bump. Va is cutting by about 16% from last year--about the worst in the nation, I believe. There was a list in the Chronicle of Higher Education if anyone is interested.

 

[jenniferblue]

I just read this article: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/susan-l-travis/obama-endorses-student-lo_b_440772.html

I would suggest writing your senator in support of reforms in the student loan legislation. Then email everyone you know to do the same.

 

[alliecat44]

I just read this article: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/susan-l-travis/obama-endorses-student-lo_b_440772.html

I would suggest writing your senator in support of reforms in the student loan legislation. Then email everyone you know to do the same.

Soething quite similar was just enacted in July 2009: https://www.dlssonline.com/pdf/IBR_Q_A.pdf

https://www.dlssonline.com/borrower/QCNews.do

Although this is 15%, it's 15% of your discretionary incoe (that is, the difference between your income and 150% of the poverty level for your family size). SO GLAD to finally see some traction in this. Note: the above plans don't apply to private or Parent PLUS loans.

 

[annie800]

In most cases it's a 3 year residency. To get accepted into a residency you usually need a 1 year rotating internship. So you're looking at 4 years after DVM/VMD. In general.

Most applications are through the Veterinary Internship and Residency Matching Program. Pathology is one notable exception but there are others. Specific requirements, such as which schools you get your degree, are set by the individual program.

Oh my Gosh, Thank you so much! You are so helpful. Do you automatically do the one year rotating internship at your DVM school? Is it by invite only? I guess I am assuming that a rotating internship should be done at a University where you can actually "rotate". Maybe not.

Regarding Pathology and Nutrition, do they have their own matching programs (not featured on the VIRMP site)?

On VIRMP, I see that many programs require specific state licensing. Do you pass one NAVLE and then use those scores to apply for licensing in the several states? Ie: The states that have programs that interest you? Maybe it's not even that easy, maybe state licensing requires a duration of state residency.

These must be the funniest questions EVER. I know. I know. But...I am so thankful for your help. I mean, really.

 

[annie800]

AAHA didn't think the cost of vet education was bad and that it was equivalent to med school cost to income ratios at $0.06 to the $1.00 but I am not sure I believe that, particularly since thier review only included SA practices.

IMO, the cost of a DVM education is usually equal to cost of Med School.
Physician income often exceeds DVM income, or so my med school friends brag and brag...and brag. They say they are not at all worried about med school loans because they are so positive that they will have starting income in the 120-150K range. <--- That figure comes from D.O. students who work with residents and attendings.

 

[Bill59]

Do you automatically do the one year rotating internship at your DVM school?

No, usually you do your internship somewhere else. Many schools are reluctant to keep their own students for internship and most agree you are better off going somewhere else. It's good to get a different perspective and see how other places operate and it can be difficult to transition to the doctor when all the faculty and staff still think of you as a student.

Is it by invite only?

You apply, similar to applying to veterinary school or to a job. However, if it's through the match, they pair everyone up based on how you rank the programs you apply to and how the programs rank the applicants. Unfortunately, since there are more applicants than slots, not every applicant gets an internship.

Regarding Pathology and Nutrition, do they have their own matching programs (not featured on the VIRMP site)?

I don't know if they have matching programs or you just scramble for slots. Someone else can probably answer that.

Do you pass one NAVLE and then use those scores to apply for licensing in the several states? Ie: The states that have programs that interest you?

Pretty much. Some states have their own exams as well.

 

[annie800]

YAY! Thank you. Much clearer now.
I am guessing some DVMs who don't get accepted into internship go on to work in the field, then come back the next year and re-apply? LOL...That would be a strange, but valuable change of pace, life, and income. The end would justify it, if it is allowed.

 

[sumstorm]

It is allowed. One thing, if you do match and get an internship, barring extenuating circumstances, you go....no second guessing after the fact. If you don't go and don't have an acceptable reason, you forfeit the ability to use the Match program for a couple of years. I don't know about path/nutrition, but lab animal med is a bit of a mad scramble, but there is a shortage so it work out ok, from what I understand. Chris on here is in a lab animal residency, so he would know that part better.

As for doing residency in house at your own school, that also varies by fields. There are just a lot fewer options for some fields, so 'incest' isn't always frowned on (I know that is true for zoo vet med.)

As for vet vs med...the point was that AHAA was saying that both doctors and vets earn $1 per $0.06 spent on education. Hence why I am not sure if I believe it. I think thier sample may be skewed.

 

[BlacKAT33]

It is allowed. One thing, if you do match and get an internship, barring extenuating circumstances, you go....no second guessing after the fact. If you don't go and don't have an acceptable reason, you forfeit the ability to use the Match program for a couple of years. I don't know about path/nutrition, but lab animal med is a bit of a mad scramble, but there is a shortage so it work out ok, from what I understand. Chris on here is in a lab animal residency, so he would know that part better.

and who would "chris" be on here? i am interested in lab animal so i'd like to PM him

 

[HopefulAg]

As for vet vs med...the point was that AHAA was saying that both doctors and vets earn $1 per $0.06 spent on education. Hence why I am not sure if I believe it. I think thier sample may be skewed.

That's got to be over the long-term right? Were they just taking into account associates or business owners as well?

and who would "chris" be on here? i am interested in lab animal so i'd like to PM him

Chris03333 probably. And it's actually a girl. Don't worry, I made the same mistake too *rubs tender spot on head*

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Pathology does not go through the match (thank goodness IMO...I have issues with the entire you-only-have-one-choice-and-you-must-go idea but that is my own thing haha).

It is individual applications to various programs, most to all are advertised on the ACVP website and you just send out packets (CV, transcripts, LORs, etc) with whatever they want.

A note about deadlines for non-match programs: The deadline is supposedlyNovember December for a lot of them....but trust me, that have people picked out by like October. ALWAYS always always apply as early as you can for things that don't go through the match. I applied in October for December deadlines, for example.

 

[david594]

Pathology does not go through the match (thank goodness IMO...I have issues with the entire you-only-have-one-choice-and-you-must-go idea but that is my own thing haha).

Its the match though! The magic is that you match into the highest ranking school on your list that has a spot for you. So you only get stuck with your last choice if everyone on the list didn't want you.

Part of me thinks they should have it for vet school admissions. Would simplify the profess.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

That is true, it is quite nice in terms of organization. I will admit it was frustrating having to organize so many different applications.

 

[annie800]

Pathology does not go through the match (thank goodness IMO...I have issues with the entire you-only-have-one-choice-and-you-must-go idea but that is my own thing haha).

Only one choice? You can't apply to multiple programs through match? Ie. radiology, surgery, small animal, etc?

 

[david594]

Only one choice? You can't apply to multiple programs through match? Ie. radiology, surgery, small animal, etc?

For the match you come up with a ranked list of the programs you want to be considered at. And the highest one on the list that accepts you(if any) is where you go. Thats the schooled you matched to. You can't change your mind if you decide you like a school lower on your list better.

 

[alliecat44]

Only one choice? You can't apply to multiple programs through match? Ie. radiology, surgery, small animal, etc?

1. Internship and residency are two different things. An internship is a "rotating" internship--i.e., you spend several weeks at a time in different services of the hospital and generally you work some emergency/overnight shifts. There are no certification programs for internships or requirements for an internship program. Academic internships (i.e., those done at a veterinary school) are in general more highly-regarded because they are more established, more regimented, have more didactic education, more areas of specialty in which to rotate through, etc. However, there are several private practice internships that are thought of as highly as academic internships. (There are hundreds of private practices around the country that offer internships.) Many times, people do not know what they want to specialize in (pursue a residency in) until their internship. This helps them decide.

2. When you apply for a residency, you ARE choosing one area. As I have mentioned before, it's a bad idea to pursue a specialty in an area for which you do NOT feel an overwhelming passion. Residencies are extremely competitive and it is poor form to apply for more than one type of residency. You can apply to as many institutions as you want--but it's all for the same type of residency.

3. Residencies are also offered at both veterinary schools and private practices; the difference is that there are specific requirements a facility must meet (types of other specialists in the building, access to certain equipment, number of hours of didactic education in many different areas, etc etc) in order to be a certified residency program.

In a nutshell--you can apply to as many PLACES as you want for both internship and residency--but when it comes to residency, you ARE choosing one particular specialty.

And FYI, for internships and every type of specialty there ARE programs that go "outside the match" and do not use that process--but not many.

 

[sumstorm]

That's got to be over the long-term right? Were they just taking into account associates or business owners as well?

Chris03333 probably. And it's actually a girl. Don't worry, I made the same mistake too *rubs tender spot on head*

That is the Chris I was referring to.

As for $....that was long term, but it STILL doesn't compute for me. They were talking assoc + owners, but I really wondered if their study wasn't biased towards AAHA practices, which have higher costs to clients (hopefully w/increased value) that not all areas can support. And he kept talking about how vets who do own have saleable assets at the end of their career and doctors don’t, but there are plenty of doctors that buy into practices, so that didn’t make sense either, and the rep kind of brushed my questions about such details away and wouldn’t cite a source for the data.

 

[sumstorm]

An internship is a "rotating" internship--i.e., you spend several weeks at a time in different services of the hospital and generally you work some emergency/overnight shifts. There are no certification programs for internships or requirements for an internship program. Academic internships (i.e., those done at a veterinary school) are in general more highly-regarded because they are more established, more regimented, have more didactic education, more areas of specialty in which to rotate through, etc. However, there are several private practice internships that are thought of as highly as academic internships. (There are hundreds of private practices around the country that offer internships.) Many times, people do not know what they want to specialize in (pursue a residency in) until their internship. This helps them decide.

Ummm... this isn't necessarly true in every field, is it? My understanding is it isn't in things like path, behavior, zoo, lab animal, PH, etc. That those fields really require jacks of all trades focused on a type of medicine and the internships are not rotating generally, and the internships are more often in the private, NGO, or govt sector than SA & equine.

 

[annie800]

"When you apply for a residency, you ARE choosing one area. As I have mentioned before, it's a bad idea to pursue a specialty in an area for which you do NOT feel an overwhelming passion. Residencies are extremely competitive and it is poor form to apply for more than one type of residency."

Some members belong to more than one specialty, how so?
Also, in my opinion, it is very possible to be passionate about a few specialities. Ie. Oncology and Surgery. Virology and Internal Medicine. I mean, some disciplines overlap a bit. I wouldn't think anything is wrong with applying to a couple specialty progs, but if it frowned upon or not permitted, I wouldn't. I appreciate your shedding light on this.

 

[alliecat44]

Ummm... this isn't necessarly true in every field, is it? My understanding is it isn't in things like path, behavior, zoo, lab animal, PH, etc. That those fields really require jacks of all trades focused on a type of medicine and the internships are not rotating generally, and the internships are more often in the private, NGO, or govt sector than SA & equine.

As you know, zoo, lab animal and path are kind of their own separate beasts.

I'm talking about more traditional specialties such as surgery, oncology, internal medicine, etc that you apply for through the match, since the question was about applying through the match.

 

[david594]

Some members belong to more than one specialty, how so?

Extremely rare to find a vet who is doubled boarded.

I work for one who is double boarded large animal internal medicine and small animal. But they went back and did a second residency for small animal.

 

[alliecat44]

"When you apply for a residency, you ARE choosing one area. As I have mentioned before, it's a bad idea to pursue a specialty in an area for which you do NOT feel an overwhelming passion. Residencies are extremely competitive and it is poor form to apply for more than one type of residency."

Some members belong to more than one specialty, how so?
Also, in my opinion, it is very possible to be passionate about a few specialities. Ie. Oncology and Surgery. Virology and Internal Medicine. I mean, some disciplines overlap a bit. I wouldn't think anything is wrong with applying to a couple specialty progs, but if it frowned upon or not permitted, I wouldn't. I appreciate your shedding light on this.

People belong to more than one specialty by doing more than one residency. You usually don't have to do a second internship, but an additional residency is required, and you have to pass the boards for that specialty.

In other words, to be double-boarded is a BIG deal (and takes a LONG time).

There are very few exceptions--there is at least one and maybe two places in the US where you can do a double residency in emergency/critical care + internal medicine in a total of five years, shaving one year off your total residency time.

Residencies are extremely competitive and if it isn't obvious to the selection committee that you are extremely committed to THAT specialty they won't take you. Too likely to burn out/not finish/not pass boards when you're done.

 

[Pigsfoot]

for a brief moment i looked at the title of this thread and read 'Vet school Student Out of control'.....



sorry guys, i'm loopy..........

 

[sumstorm]

As you know, zoo, lab animal and path are kind of their own separate beasts.

I'm talking about more traditional specialties such as surgery, oncology, internal medicine, etc that you apply for through the match, since the question was about applying through the match.

ahh....zoo med and exotics are still through the match program (primarily.) I am currently dealing with a summer research match program which is frustrating enough...so just confirming.... quite possible for me to not have that accurately figured out

I may actually pursue IM with a focus on zoo med. just depends.

 

[sumstorm]

People belong to more than one specialty by doing more than one residency. You usually don't have to do a second internship, but an additional residency is required, and you have to pass the boards for that specialty.

In other words, to be double-boarded is a BIG deal (and takes a LONG time).

There are very few exceptions--there is at least one and maybe two places in the US where you can do a double residency in emergency/critical care + internal medicine in a total of five years, shaving one year off your total residency time.

Residencies are extremely competitive and if it isn't obvious to the selection committee that you are extremely committed to THAT specialty they won't take you. Too likely to burn out/not finish/not pass boards when you're done.

Yeah, there are a few other exceptions (apparently zoo med/path, zoo med/IM, path/PH) with formal residencies and a lot of exotics vets are double or even triple boarded, but that is because the programs don't require a formal residency (ie they do their case studies, CE's and board exams in year 2010 for avian, then do the case studies, CE's and board exams in year 2012 for reptiles, etc.) Again, a completly different beast than SA/LA/equine.

 

[StealthDog]

ahh....zoo med and exotics are still through the match program (primarily.)

I plan to eventually become ABVP certified in exotic companion mammals, and am doing an internship at a clinic that is 20% exotics/80% small animal. After I finish my internship, the goal is to find a job at a practice that sees enough exotic companion mammals to get the caseload necessary to fill all the ABVP requirements for sitting the board exam (case reports, etc)... but that can take 6 or 7 years. At least I'll get to make a real salary instead of being paid as a resident...!

 

[sumstorm]

I plan to eventually become ABVP certified in exotic companion mammals, and am doing an internship at a clinic that is 20% exotics/80% small animal. After I finish my internship, the goal is to find a job at a practice that sees enough exotic companion mammals to get the caseload necessary to fill all the ABVP requirements for sitting the board exam (case reports, etc)... but that can take 6 or 7 years. At least I'll get to make a real salary instead of being paid as a resident...!

I know some folks who did theirs in a few years (~3 each) but how they did it was by offering up services to vets in a 4 hour range; they would consult on the exotics at those practices 1 Sat a month, which greatly increased their exposure for case reports. win (clients) - win (host vet) - win (consult vet.)

 

[causticus]

Ok, so would residency and specialization be the same thing? Does anyone know if you can defer student loans during specialization? Seriously, this is scary for me to think about.

Usually, "speciality" = residency + boards

I think the requirements to sit for boards are slightly different for each specialty. Some require a residency, or a certain number of years practicing in your specific field, recommendation from another professional, etc.

You CAN defer through residency...IF you do a combined program (such as a residency + PhD, or residency + MS)...the PhD/MS portion counts as continuing education, even though residency does not (which is bull****, IMO, because you barely make enough $$ in residency to keep from starving to death). Depending on what speciality you are interested in, the additional degree can boost your overall income later (more so for PhD than for MS...but an MS is less time if you are just looking for something to let you defer your loans).

Keep in mind that you have the next four years to make this decision - no need to panic just yet

 

[livvie]

I'm also curious about nutrition.... That was a secret interest of mine, specifically zoological nutrition, but I didn't think it counted as a "real" veterinary specialty. I thought it was more a PhD route...

(This is a webpage I find interesting - it's different veterinary specialists who are consultants for other vets. It's interesting to see the paths people took to get into the specialties they're in and also the different kind of specialties available.)
http://www.vin.com/VIN.plx?P=ConRepsFeatured&F=57&C=100677

Anway, there is a board certification in Clinical Nutrition, and most of the people listed as board certified have PhDs although at least one looks like she may have used her residency as part of her PhD completion.

Hmmm.....

 

[davidd]

everyone considering specialties, internships, and residencies should check out this presentation that was posted in another thread....

This powerpoint presentation gives some good overall information on veterinary economics, including specialty economics: http://www.avmatv.org/channel.cfm?s=67&c=408

FAP - Food Animal Predominant
FAE - Food Animal Exclusive
CAP - Companion Animal Predominant
CAE - Companion Animal Exclusive

 

[HopefulAg]

Can someone smarter than myself explain that slide? Food animal predominant gets LESS money after completing a residency? Is that just an outlier or what? Can they not find jobs? Or do people completing residencies for FAP switch? I realize that's just medians (averages would've been more useful) but there's got to be a reason.

And what does it mean by residency? Boarded? Or just having completed a residency? He didn't say (or I missed it; surfing the web while listening to this/glancing over on second monitor every now and then).
Edit: Nevermind, just went back and re-listened to it. It's internship = completed only internship. Residency = completed internship and residency, didn't take boards.

He goes on to say that "we've found that in the long run, it looks like there's not much benefit to doing an intership after veterinary school vs just practicing straight out of vet school in terms of income". So doing a residency for the money isn't a good idea I reckon.

However, this slide seems to contradict that:

Might be changing to companion animal from mix based on that though. Huge discrepancies in income.

Pretty interesting slide show though. Looks like government jobs aren't worth ****.

 

[BlacKAT33]

Pretty interesting slide show though. Looks like government jobs aren't worth ****.

it depends, although it says they earn around as much as companion animal (i think it was between 80-100k on the slide, the slide after that shows the benefits of each type and govt vets get really really good benefits.

 

[HopefulAg]

it depends, although it says they earn around as much as companion animal (i think it was between 80-100k on the slide, the slide after that shows the benefits of each type and govt vets get really really good benefits.

Is this the one you're talking about? Only benefits slide I could find. Hard to navigate through the video though lol. Wish they'd just released the powerpoint itself (gold sticker to whoever can find it, I sure can't; just a passing mention of it on the VIN).

 

[Electrophile]

I'm also curious about nutrition.... That was a secret interest of mine, specifically zoological nutrition, but I didn't think it counted as a "real" veterinary specialty. I thought it was more a PhD route...

(This is a webpage I find interesting - it's different veterinary specialists who are consultants for other vets. It's interesting to see the paths people took to get into the specialties they're in and also the different kind of specialties available.)
http://www.vin.com/VIN.plx?P=ConRepsFeatured&F=57&C=100677

Anway, there is a board certification in Clinical Nutrition, and most of the people listed as board certified have PhDs although at least one looks like she may have used her residency as part of her PhD completion.

Hmmm.....

Yes, there is a board certification from the American College of Veterinary Nutrition. I'm planning to do it when I've been out in practice a few years (no desire or requirement for doing an internship). During your residency, you are expected to publish at least 1 first author paper during your time. Because of this, many get a masters degree or PhD. Doing a masters in nutrition is 2-3 years, doing a PhD is 5-6.

 

[BlacKAT33]

Is this the one you're talking about? Only benefits slide I could find. Hard to navigate through the video though lol. Wish they'd just released the powerpoint itself (gold sticker to whoever can find it, I sure can't; just a passing mention of it on the VIN).

ya thats what i was talking about. I wasnt going to try to attempt to add that image lol im a fellow for the govt now and i cant believe my insurance, it is amazingggg. i barely pay anything for doctor/dentist. and i started getting allergy shots (once a week) i only have to pay 5$ for each time! its amazing they also paid for my whole allergy panel test which would have been over 100$ (and thats cheap because i specifically asked them to do only 8 animals since i thought it was coming out of my pocket)

 

[HopefulAg]

Ah well I wish they'd separated out Corporate and Public then.

 

[BlacKAT33]

In the public corporate slides in that presentation Industry is there. Can someone please tell me what types of jobs are considered "industry". i'm not asking just because they make the most money lol but i am just curious because i have no clue what kind of jobs that includes since federal, university, and all the other things listed are separate categories. The only thing i can think of that's not listed is a factory farm/slaughter...?

 

[GellaBella]

Industry typically means a private research company such as pharmaceutical companies, biotechs etc

 

[Ben and Me]

Yeah, there are a few other exceptions (apparently zoo med/path, zoo med/IM, path/PH) with formal residencies and a lot of exotics vets are double or even triple boarded, but that is because the programs don't require a formal residency (ie they do their case studies, CE's and board exams in year 2010 for avian, then do the case studies, CE's and board exams in year 2012 for reptiles, etc.) Again, a completly different beast than SA/LA/equine.

sumstorm, for what it's worth a vet from the Philly Zoo came and talked to us yesterday. He STRONGLY recommended that those interested in zoo medicine do their internship in either rotating large animal or small animal medicine, especially one that will allow you to get lots of surgery experience. I know when I was at the Bronx Zoo for a summer, at least one of their residents (the only one I asked, haha) had done just that. You may already know this, but I was unclear from your posts (and I'm a little frazzled right now with our last anatomy practical tomorrow!)

 

[sumstorm]

sumstorm, for what it's worth a vet from the Philly Zoo came and talked to us yesterday. He STRONGLY recommended that those interested in zoo medicine do their internship in either rotating large animal or small animal medicine, especially one that will allow you to get lots of surgery experience. I know when I was at the Bronx Zoo for a summer, at least one of their residents (the only one I asked, haha) had done just that. You may already know this, but I was unclear from your posts (and I'm a little frazzled right now with our last anatomy practical tomorrow!)

yeah, I realized from what I wrote it wasn't clear.

Big zoo = required, highly competitive residency
Med zoo = depends, internship/experience may suffice
Small zoo = operate private practice and work contract at zoo. may require internship experience.

exotics private practice = internship/residency, or practice + experience + case for boards

so.... I did an internship in UG at Philly in 1997.
did they say why surgery emphasis vs IM?

 

[sumstorm]

However, this slide seems to contradict that:

You have to do a cost/benefit analysis to determine the value of additional education (lost income/experience/increased cost, etc.) median and average won't show that, and it will vary person to person.

 

[Ben and Me]

did they say why surgery emphasis vs IM?

He said that while you can call in boarded surgeons for planned surgeries (even human surgeons, in some cases!), you can't for emergency situations - and you have to be ready to get in there! I saw that myself in my experience - even though the Bronx Zoo has a boarded surgeon on staff, the non-surgeon zoo medicine vets did surgery as well, especially for unplanned surgeries on the weekends, or days when the surgeon was off doing rounds at one of the other 4 zoos.

 

[sumstorm]

He said that while you can call in boarded surgeons for planned surgeries (even human surgeons, in some cases!), you can't for emergency situations - and you have to be ready to get in there! I saw that myself in my experience - even though the Bronx Zoo has a boarded surgeon on staff, the non-surgeon zoo medicine vets did surgery as well, especially for unplanned surgeries on the weekends, or days when the surgeon was off doing rounds at one of the other 4 zoos.

mmm....seems like emergency/critical care would be more useful then. i have had lots of coflicting advice for zoo. right now, I am just trying to keep my options open. I have a behavior med model research job for the summer.

 

[HopefulAg]

You have to do a cost/benefit analysis to determine the value of additional education (lost income/experience/increased cost, etc.) median and average won't show that, and it will vary person to person.

Right, I get that, but let's say 4 years for boarding (I think it's generally 1 yr internship, 3 residency no?). Average difference between boarded/non-boarded seems ~$40,000. So in those four years you lose $320,000 max (this is assuming no income during those four years) in opportunity costs. In 8 years you've earned that lost income back (8 * 40 = 320) and make pure difference after that. Then let's say you practice over a 30 year period, 22 years of $40,000 additional income is $880,000.

 

[livvie]

He said that while you can call in boarded surgeons for planned surgeries (even human surgeons, in some cases!),

Ok, totally taking this thread off topic now, but why is it that human doctors can perform veterinary medicine without being licensed, whereas it's illegal for vets to perform human medicine? This isn't the first time I've heard about it either - I have a friend who's an orthopedic surgeon resident at Harvard and he mentioned that he knows orthopedic surgeons (presumably at Harvard) who have done work on dogs.

What's up with that?

 

[livvie]

Can someone please tell me what types of jobs are considered "industry".

Industry would probably also include major food companies like Hills, Purina Oxbow, ZooMed, which is likely why nutritionist is such a lucrative specialty.