Vet School Student Debt out of control?

[david594]

Ok, totally taking this thread off topic now, but why is it that human doctors can perform veterinary medicine without being licensed, whereas it's illegal for vets to perform human medicine? This isn't the first time I've heard about it either - I have a friend who's an orthopedic surgeon resident at Harvard and he mentioned that he knows orthopedic surgeons (presumably at Harvard) who have done work on dogs.

What's up with that?

They are working under the vet. Vet is the one managing the case and can bring in a human specialist when they have more advanced training doing some particular procedure. They also must be present for the procedure. Or at least that was how they explained it to us for Ohio.

A human doctor cannot do anything on an animal on their own.

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[livvie]

They are working under the vet. Vet is the one managing the case and can bring in a human specialist when they have more advanced training doing some particular procedure. They also must be present for the procedure. Or at least that was how they explained it to us for Ohio.

A human doctor cannot do anything on an animal on their own.

Interesting....

So question: a lot of research on congestive heart failure is being done on dogs with spontaneous heart disease and some new less-invasive surgery techniques have been pioneered recently. Does that mean that a vet - being a specialist in the technique, working under a doctor, could perform the procedure on a human?

 

[Highlsnds3]

That's one way to keep medical costs down! Vets don't charge near as much as human doctors!

 

[sumstorm]

Right, I get that, but let's say 4 years for boarding (I think it's generally 1 yr internship, 3 residency no?). Average difference between boarded/non-boarded seems ~$40,000. So in those four years you lose $320,000 max (this is assuming no income during those four years) in opportunity costs. In 8 years you've earned that lost income back (8 * 40 = 320) and make pure difference after that. Then let's say you practice over a 30 year period, 22 years of $40,000 additional income is $880,000.

don't forget costs like debt increase from interest. also, those number may change; recession has hit specialty harder than general pactice & we don't quite know what will happen in recovery. and then ownership vs employed. I haven't ran the numbers..but be cautious also when $ isn't connected to hours/regions/etc.

 

[sumstorm]

Interesting....

So question: a lot of research on congestive heart failure is being done on dogs with spontaneous heart disease and some new less-invasive surgery techniques have been pioneered recently. Does that mean that a vet - being a specialist in the technique, working under a doctor, could perform the procedure on a human?

no idea, but in parts of europe in an emergency in the absence of human doctor, vets can treat (or at least that was the case a decade ago) until a human doc can be obtained.

 

[HopefulAg]

don't forget costs like debt increase from interest. also, those number may change; recession has hit specialty harder than general pactice & we don't quite know what will happen in recovery. and then ownership vs employed. I haven't ran the numbers..but be cautious also when $ isn't connected to hours/regions/etc.

I didn't include debt as it would be shared by both parties. You don't have to pay for a residency, do you? They payed you (pennies, but still...) I thought.

Also during a recession, you're still a DVM, so you could practice as such in the mean time to help 'weather the storm', at which point you'd be on even terms. I think not calculating the stipend paid during residency helps even out recession years.

 

[Solidgun]

My wife said she was willing to work extra hard hours as a nurse for me to work in social services if I became a vet getting paid ~$35,000/year.

I guess I have to show her this article and rethink our goals.

 

[alliecat44]

I didn't include debt as it would be shared by both parties. You don't have to pay for a residency, do you? They payed you (pennies, but still...) I thought.

Also during a recession, you're still a DVM, so you could practice as such in the mean time to help 'weather the storm', at which point you'd be on even terms. I think not calculating the stipend paid during residency helps even out recession years.

Just FYI, you generally can't work during a residency. There's absolutely no time and usually contracts prohibit it (not sure if this is what you were implying or not, but wanted to clarify for those reading).

 

[HopefulAg]

Just FYI, you generally can't work during a residency. There's absolutely no time and usually contracts prohibit it (not sure if this is what you were implying or not, but wanted to clarify for those reading).

I thought you got a stipend? May just be a 'if you're lucky' deal though.

 

[vnair2]

I thought you got a stipend? May just be a 'if you're lucky' deal though.

I think you two are comically miscommunicating. Im pretty sure when HopefulAg said that during a recession you are still a DVM they meant that if you cant find a job in your chosen specialty field you can still get a normal private practice job.

AllieCat seems to have thought you meant you could work as a DVM during your residency. This of course is not feasible.

And Yes you get a stipend during your residency.

All cleared up? Carry On.

 

[frozen_canadian]

AllieCat seems to have thought you meant you could work as a DVM during your residency. This of course is not feasible.
.

Not entirely true. I know both a opthalmology resident and a radiology resident that work every other weekend at another vet clinic doing GP.

 

[ambulocetus]

I know of several residents that worked either at a local shelter, or took weekend shifts at an emergency clinic (when not on call for the residency) in order to supplement their paltry earnings. Emergency pays quite well, if you are willing to do an overnight stint.

 

[sumstorm]

I didn't include debt as it would be shared by both parties. You don't have to pay for a residency, do you? They payed you (pennies, but still...) I thought.

Also during a recession, you're still a DVM, so you could practice as such in the mean time to help 'weather the storm', at which point you'd be on even terms. I think not calculating the stipend paid during residency helps even out recession years.

I am not sure what you mean by shared? shared by whom? debt may affect decisions because if person A has $350k debt in loans & B has $0, the cost of residency of A is > B, both in terms of reduced functional income (net income - debt payment) and in terms of compounding interest.

IE, how $ works out has too many variables for generalizations. a great business person may be worse off in specialty than in a privately owned clinic. A non-trad's reduction in total income may not offset the lost income of 3(+) years (not everyone progresses smoothly from intern to resident to practice.) I am not saying it isn't worth pursuing specialization if it matches your interest, and I am considering that route myself, just that each person will need to look at a lot of factors; high debt, high external costs (family, COL), low income, and residency in areas of higher cost than planned practice area are all factors that can reduce the value of the additional educational time. Looking at averages won't give a clear picture, either. Dr C may make $180k, while Dr D may make $60k….but if you find out that Dr. D is working 20 hours a week while Dr C is working 60 hours, the differences aren't so great. That is all I am saying….the charts are interesting, but dig deeper in figuring out plans. However, if that specialty is your passion, it may not really matter at all about the $$$. I was including stipend as income. Ie if you do a residency at $24k but could work at $54k, the income cost each year is $30k…then depending on the person/situation you would need to add/subtract COL, debt costs, investment costs, etc. IE, while a particular path may make great sense for you it may be disastrous financially for me for a variety of reasons. To calculate it out, all those other factors have to be processed for each person, which is why averages aren't always viable

I am not sure how or why a DVM would or would not work general practice during slow times. Many that I know work in referral service and would lose referrals if they took clients from their referring DVMs. I do agree that during recessions, particularly when employment opportunities are reduced, continuing education can be beneficial (because the opportunity cost goes down.)

 

[Bill59]

Not entirely true. I know both a opthalmology resident and a radiology resident that work every other weekend at another vet clinic doing GP.

It depends on the residency. Ophtho and especially radiology tend to have better hours than some other specialties, such as medicine, surgery or neuro. In fact the biggest risk of injury for a radiologist is to get trampled by a clinical pathologist on the way out of the hospital at 5 pm.

But when you're in house 12-14 hours a day + weekends + call + studying for boards you often don't have the time or energy to moonlight.

 

[Ben and Me]

It depends on the residency. Ophtho and especially radiology tend to have better hours than some other specialties, such as medicine, surgery or neuro. In fact the biggest risk of injury for a radiologist is to get trampled by a clinical pathologist on the way out of the hospital at 5 pm.

But when you're in house 12-14 hours a day + weekends + call + studying for boards you often don't have the time or energy to moonlight.

Agreed - especially with staff cuts, it seems like residents (or at least the large animal medicine residents I've seen) are running around about 23 hours a day.

 

[Bill59]

You're residents are getting an hour off each day? Slackers.

 

[rugbychick16]

In fact the biggest risk of injury for a radiologist is to get trampled by a clinical pathologist on the way out of the hospital at 5 pm.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

In fact the biggest risk of injury for a radiologist is to get trampled by a clinical pathologist on the way out of the hospital at 5 pm.

The trick is to just stay down, no use getting up cause you'll be knocked right back down by the anatomics next No, no, not always true...necropsy rotation weeks are generally a tad longer.

It's really amazing how much the hours of various specialties vary. I absolutely 100% admire surgery residents, but there's no way i could be pulling 14+ hour days 7 days a week plus on-call and emergencies....

 

[chris03333]

and who would "chris" be on here? i am interested in lab animal so i'd like to PM him

Hello

No shortage anymore Way more applicants than there is jobs available (thanks to all of the industry crashes/layoffs).

http://www.aslap.org/OnePage.php

 

[sumstorm]

Hello

No shortage anymore Way more applicants than there is jobs available (thanks to all of the industry crashes/layoffs).

http://www.aslap.org/OnePage.php

Chris, have you taken a look at the RPT area near Raleigh? If your up for relocation, we have had some staff from the local places complain about not finding the right fits. (I did a lab animal selective last semester.)

 

[Ben and Me]

Chris, have you taken a look at the RPT area near Raleigh? If your up for relocation, we have had some staff from the local places complain about not finding the right fits. (I did a lab animal selective last semester.)

Pretty sure that's RTP

 

[mouserat]

Does anyone have experience with the Public Loan Forgiveness Program? From what I understand if your work in the public sector doing something like public health for the federal government your student loans will be forgiven after 120 payments (10yrs). Has anyone heard of veterinarians taking advantage of this?

 

[chris03333]

Chris, have you taken a look at the RPT area near Raleigh? If your up for relocation, we have had some staff from the local places complain about not finding the right fits. (I did a lab animal selective last semester.)

What is RTP?

Currently their is like 5 jobs available (in all of lab animal, academic, industry) and 2 are Director positions (I am not at that point, I want a clinical position) the other 3 clinical positions have like 50+ applicants, including TONS of veterans (boarded and many years of experience) which are out of a job because of the cuts in funding (academia) or business closure/merges (industry).

It is likely I will find something, but it is really looking like that something will be in private practice for now.

 

[wolfpack87]

RTP stands for Research Triangle Park. Basically we here in the Capital area (Raleigh, Chapel Hill and Durham) have the unique advantage of having a large number of PhD's in one area (I want to say there are more concentrated in this area than anywhere in the world but I have no link or stats to currently prove that so go with what I said in the previous sentence). Basically a lot of companies are situated in this area and they do massive amounts of research. A lot of collaboration goes on with the faculty at the different schools (Duke, UNC, and N.C. State) and a lot of crossover (industry to academia and vice versa).

 

[chris03333]

RTP stands for Research Triangle Park. Basically we here in the Capital area (Raleigh, Chapel Hill and Durham) have the unique advantage of having a large number of PhD's in one area (I want to say there are more concentrated in this area than anywhere in the world but I have no link or stats to currently prove that so go with what I said in the previous sentence). Basically a lot of companies are situated in this area and they do massive amounts of research. A lot of collaboration goes on with the faculty at the different schools (Duke, UNC, and N.C. State) and a lot of crossover (industry to academia and vice versa).

Thanks! Yeah I have looked in that area (actually my only geographical limit is the United States...

 

[sumstorm]

Pretty sure that's RTP

LOL! right hand got ahead of the left hand.

 

[chris03333]

It is likely I will find something, but it is really looking like that something will be in private practice for now.

Just an update, that "something" is definately NOT gonna be private practice anymore!!! Keep hope alive

 

[twelvetigers]

Yaaay! Congrats! Glad something came through for you.

 

[HopefulAg]

Just an update, that "something" is definately NOT gonna be private practice anymore!!! Keep hope alive

So, what is the 'something'?

 

[StartingoverVet]

Enquiring minds want to know!

 

[twelvetigers]

Its a job! She was having a hard time finding one, and she had said that she WOULD find something, but it might be general practice. Now she's happily reporting that she DID find something, and it's not general practice. I'm assuming it's lab animal medicine, since that's what her residency was in.

 

[chris03333]

Its a job! She was having a hard time finding one, and she had said that she WOULD find something, but it might be general practice. Now she's happily reporting that she DID find something, and it's not general practice. I'm assuming it's lab animal medicine, since that's what her residency was in.

Exactely. And that is all I will say.

 

[HopefulAg]

Tease.