Veterinary or Medical Route

[pinkpuppy9]

But see, that's my point. You just threw out a blanket statement about someone saying they didn't want to move their dog. You didn't allow for the fact that there may be a reason. You're going to get clients like that, too, who aren't great about articulating their thinking. They may be someone with a dog like me, but they may tell you that they want to euthanize because they "just don't want to deal with moving [the] dog". That's life with real clients.

All I'm saying is that - in my opinion - you should be slower to judge than what I've seen in your posts. *shrug*

If I were your veterinarian, I'd already know the history of your dog. You wouldn't have to explain much to me. I get that some people completely vet-hop when it comes to wanting to euthanize (especially when it comes to convenience euths), but I do not think your situation is for convenience. Maybe I'm assuming, but again, whether you move or not, your dog's QOL is going down. You will likely be making a decision anyways. I didn't think I'd need to list every scenario for wanting to euthanize before a move when I refer to it as a "convenience euthanasia." I'm talking when an owner has a perfectly healthy, well-behaved dog and they're moving. They don't want to drive with the dog and stop every few hours, they didn't realize the new apartment wasn't pet friendly because they didn't bother to ask, etc. The dog doesn't need to be euthanized for those reasons alone.

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[DVMDream]

If I were your veterinarian, I'd already know the history of your dog. You wouldn't have to explain much to me. I get that some people completely vet-hop when it comes to wanting to euthanize (especially when it comes to convenience euths), but I do not think your situation is for convenience. Maybe I'm assuming, but again, whether you move or not, your dog's QOL is going down. You will likely be making a decision anyways. I didn't think I'd need to list every scenario for wanting to euthanize before a move when I refer to it as a "convenience euthanasia." I'm talking when an owner has a perfectly healthy, well-behaved dog and they're moving. They don't want to drive with the dog and stop every few hours, they didn't realize the new apartment wasn't pet friendly because they didn't bother to ask, etc. The dog doesn't need to be euthanized for those reasons alone.

So how is his dog's health issues + moving= ok to euth

but dachshund with controlled back problems + behavior issue + moving= send to shelter, don't euth.

That doesn't make sense to me?

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

S
I suppose it would depend on the shelter, then. I'll throw no-kills and rescues into the mix, now. One rescue we donate some services to regularly takes in older patients or those that might have a chance, but might take longer to adopt out in your city shelters or need extra TLC. I can guarantee you this rescue would pick up this dachshund to try to work with it a little and see what she could do.

Every shelter and rescue has their own policy, sure. If it doesn't take cats, then don't bring the cat there. See if you really cannot bring the cat anywhere else within a reasonable drive. I'm sure I just opened another can of worms with "reasonable drive," lol.

Well I'm glad you live in a place where those are options. I live in the middle of Appalachia. Do you really think a client is going to listen to me when I tell them to drive 3 hours or so out to the nearest rescue or no-kill with space that will accept a old dog with behavioral issues?

You seem to have this idea that it's super easy to make space for animals. Maybe it is in your neck of the woods, and that's great. But many of us are not in that situation, and it's frustrating to hear people say "Oh, just take it to a rescue" like that will solve every problem. It is a lot more complex than that.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

So how is his dog's health issues + moving= ok to euth

but dachshund with controlled back problems + behavior issue + moving= send to shelter, don't euth.

That doesn't make sense to me?

Again, assuming here: LIS will likely make a decision about his dog even if he didn't move. Poor QOL, that's a given. It doesn't sound like his dog's issues are as manageable as this dachshund's.

This dachshund has what I assume to be a decent, if not good QOL before you consider what he would be like in a shelter. Like I said, I know a rescue that would try to work with this dog in a heartbeat. I know there aren't always rescues like this in every area. The fact that I've watched a lot of dogs go from "unfriendly and nippy" to friendly dogs in new homes tells me that there is a shot. I can't guarantee you that this particular dog we're talking about will be successfully 'rehabilitated,' because not all of them are. Far too few people take the time to try to find their pets other options. Sometimes they exist, sometimes they don't. Sounds like they didn't in your experience with this dog.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

If I were your veterinarian, I'd already know the history of your dog. You wouldn't have to explain much to me. I get that some people completely vet-hop when it comes to wanting to euthanize (especially when it comes to convenience euths), but I do not think your situation is for convenience. Maybe I'm assuming, but again, whether you move or not, your dog's QOL is going down. You will likely be making a decision anyways. I didn't think I'd need to list every scenario for wanting to euthanize before a move when I refer to it as a "convenience euthanasia." I'm talking when an owner has a perfectly healthy, well-behaved dog and they're moving. They don't want to drive with the dog and stop every few hours, they didn't realize the new apartment wasn't pet friendly because they didn't bother to ask, etc. The dog doesn't need to be euthanized for those reasons alone.

Of course it doesn't in an ideal world. But we aren't in an ideal world.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

Well I'm glad you live in a place where those are options. I live in the middle of Appalachia. Do you really think a client is going to listen to me when I tell them to drive 3 hours or so out to the nearest rescue or no-kill with space that will accept a old dog with behavioral issues?

You seem to have this idea that it's super easy to make space for animals. Maybe it is in your neck of the woods, and that's great. But many of us are not in that situation, and it's frustrating to hear people say "Oh, just take it to a rescue" like that will solve every problem. It is a lot more complex than that.

Well, with the rampant poverty in Appalachia, I suppose it's something of note that the client is actually bringing a dog to the clinic to be euthanized as opposed to dumping it on the side of the road.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Well, with the rampant poverty in Appalachia, I suppose it's something of note that the client is actually bringing a dog to the clinic to be euthanized as opposed to dumping it on the side of the road.

Exactly the point I'm trying to get at.

I would much, much rather have the dog put to sleep in a calm, clean environment rather than subject the poor thing to spending it's last days in a hellish shelter environment on the off chance (read: very unlikely unless it is a puppy) it will get adopted - and then being put down by strangers when it doesn't happen. Or refusing to do it because I don't think they have exhausted all their options, and having the owners take it out back and shoot it, or dump it, or give it away on craigslist and it becomes a bait dog, etc.

I understand your frustration with convenience euthanasias. They make me mad as hell too. But just remember that the whole oh, just try a shelter/rescue/etc is NOT a cure all and isn't always a viable option - that's why it makes people mad when you insinuate it is and act like "jeez, why don't you guys just try it, it's easy" when, to us, it isn't so easy. I grew up around Washington DC where there are tons of rescues and no-kills, and I would totally have responded exactly how you have back then. But having been here for about 10 years total (and rural TX for another 3, with similar issues) I have realized there are very different circumstances.

 

[DVMDream]

This dachshund has what I assume to be a decent, if not good QOL before you consider what he would be like in a shelter. Like I said, I know a rescue that would try to work with this dog in a heartbeat. I know there aren't always rescues like this in every area. The fact that I've watched a lot of dogs go from "unfriendly and nippy" to friendly dogs in new homes tells me that there is a shot. I can't guarantee you that this particular dog we're talking about will be successfully 'rehabilitated,' because not all of them are. Far too few people take the time to try to find their pets other options. Sometimes they exist, sometimes they don't. Sounds like they didn't in your experience with this dog.

Again though, that is why I mentioned the scenario that I did. Dachshund with those issues and all options have been completely exhausted except local shelter or euthanasia. What do you do? This isn't a, "well in my area I know someone who would work with this dog". Good, that is great. But that isn't the scenario here. So you are basing what this dog should have done off of what isn't even available in the scenario you are given. You have 2 options: local shelter (where dog has about a 90% chance of being euthanized simply due to behavior) or euthanasia.

 

[LetItSnow]

If I were your veterinarian, I'd already know the history of your dog.

You think people don't walk in off the street never having seen you before?

Anyway. I've said my piece, and I've given you what I think is constructive advice. I'll shut up.

 

[NStarz]

I think it's okay to not to do 'convenience' euthanasias (and there are many different definitions for that). But one shouldn't judge another vet for offering that to clients. A lot of colleagues I know say "at least I know the dog is going to be euth'd the right way instead of drowned/shot/left on the side of the road/whatever else." I disagree with that, because I can't burden myself with other people's poor decisions (the owner choosing to leave his/her dog on the side of the road rather than bring it to the shelter), but I definitely see why people can take that stance. I need to be able to sleep at night.

I also think that 'a cat peeing outside the litter box' is not as easy as people think it might be. FIC is totally and completely a manifestation of stress, and I"m not sure moving a cat to a shelter to another home to try it out is going to do any favors for a cat. Additionally, my own cat was defecating outside the litter box for the first 8 months of her life. It was freaking exhausting, caused a lot of problems with my roommate, etc. I probably spent over 2000 on her medical bills. If I had brought her back to the shelter, they would have put her to sleep. I definitely cannot fault someone for making a different decision than I did (though she is the BEST cat ever and I'm SO happy we got her through her issues ).

I think a 'money' euth (a lot of what I will see in ER is a lot easier for me to deal with (though not less heartbreaking) than a true convenience euth. If your dog needs GDV surgery and it's going to cost 3500 and you don't have that, I'm totally okay with euthanizing your dog. It would still suck, but I would be totally okay with it. If you came to me and said that you were moving in with your family because of a financial hardship and your mom was allergic to cats and your cat got super stressed out with other people, I would be okay euth'ing it. I would certainly explore other options with clients, but there is literally nothing so black and white that it is just a yes or no question. If you do have a happy, healthy 2 year old lab that could easily be rehomed and were moving and wanted me to PTS, I would probably not do it, but would in LIS' case. Dogs are a bit more easy to rehome with 'issues' compared to cats, which are literally falling out of the sky. Cats are dying for no reason at shelters other than space. My 'rules' for euth'ing cats are probably a lot more lenient than for dogs. If they are putting healthy cats to sleep (with no behavioral problems) at the shelter, they are not going to want to take on the femur fracture cat. (But they may the dog). See how the line blurs and changes depending on the situation?

 

[pinkpuppy9]

Exactly the point I'm trying to get at.

So there's where the veterinarian needs to interpret the situation. Meaning I know life isn't black and white.

Again though, that is why I mentioned the scenario that I did. Dachshund with those issues and all options have been completely exhausted except local shelter or euthanasia. What do you do? This isn't a, "well in my area I know someone who would work with this dog". Good, that is great. But that isn't the scenario here. So you are basing what this dog should have done off of what isn't even available in the scenario you are given. You have 2 options: local shelter (where dog has about a 90% chance of being euthanized simply due to behavior) or euthanasia.

For your particular situation, those options did not exist. They do exist elsewhere. I could even try to argue that giving that dog a 10% chance is better than euthanizing it. Like I've said, I've gotten to see a lot of dogs come in for euthanasia and leave with a rescue. It's great to see. I didn't list every possible exception to "veterinarians shouldn't euthanize for convenience" because I assumed that the phrase "convenience euthanasia" was fairly well defined, as it is in my experience.

Euthanizing a very sick dog that is likely to be euthanized eventually whether the owner is moving or not? Dog needs a double cruciate repair and the owner cannot afford it? Cat can no longer be safely handled by anyone? Not convenience. Although I'm always surprised at how many owners of evil kitties keep them. If my cat was so bad that I couldn't even get it into a carrier or even touch it, I'd be seriously weighing my options.

Euthanizing a spraying/pooping outside of the box cat because the owner doesn't want to take the time to try to fix the problem? Moving and not wanting to deal with the extra measures you have to take with pets? The dog is pregnant and a euthanasia is cheaper than a spay, and the owner doesn't want to deal with puppies? Convenience. Options to solve the problem without euthanasia exist, but the owner doesn't want to take them for whatever reason.

 

[DVMDream]

Just to add in the outcomes of the 2 scenarios:

Diabetic Dog: Was euthanized.

Dachshund: Vet was going to euthanize the dog, but a tech decided to take the dog in and the client signed the dog over to her. You do need someone very dedicated to take in a dog that will nip anyone it isn't familiar with especially one that is on medications, like this dachshund. I think this tech still has this dog, maybe not it has been a few years.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

I feel like lines of communication keep getting crossed.

pinkpuppy, none of us are saying that convenience reasons (e.g. the ones in your last paragraph) are "enough" to euthanize an animal when you only consider those reasons by themselves. Of course not. No one here is going to say it's totally ok to euth a cat just because someone is tired of it or doesn't want it anymore. We're not stupid. We are arguing that there is a much bigger picture that needs to be taken into account DESPITE the fact that those reasons alone are what most people would consider insufficient to warrant euthanasia. And that the definitions of "exhausting all options" are very different depending on the area, the client, finances, etc.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

Just to add in the outcomes of the 2 scenarios:

Diabetic Dog: Was euthanized.

Dachshund: Vet was going to euthanize the dog, but a tech decided to take the dog in and the client signed the dog over to her. You do need someone very dedicated to take in a dog that will nip anyone it isn't familiar with especially one that is on medications, like this dachshund. I think this tech still has this dog, maybe not it has been a few years.

Surprise option! I'm surprised to hear that the diabetic dog was euthanized, though.

 

[DVMDream]

So there's where the veterinarian needs to interpret the situation. Meaning I know life isn't black and white.

For your particular situation, those options did not exist. They do exist elsewhere. I could even try to argue that giving that dog a 10% chance is better than euthanizing it. Like I've said, I've gotten to see a lot of dogs come in for euthanasia and leave with a rescue. It's great to see. I didn't list every possible exception to "veterinarians shouldn't euthanize for convenience" because I assumed that the phrase "convenience euthanasia" was fairly well defined, as it is in my experience.

Euthanizing a very sick dog that is likely to be euthanized eventually whether the owner is moving or not? Dog needs a double cruciate repair and the owner cannot afford it? Cat can no longer be safely handled by anyone? Not convenience. Although I'm always surprised at how many owners of evil kitties keep them. If my cat was so bad that I couldn't even get it into a carrier or even touch it, I'd be seriously weighing my options.

Euthanizing a spraying/pooping outside of the box cat because the owner doesn't want to take the time to try to fix the problem? Moving and not wanting to deal with the extra measures you have to take with pets? The dog is pregnant and a euthanasia is cheaper than a spay, and the owner doesn't want to deal with puppies? Convenience. Options to solve the problem without euthanasia exist, but the owner doesn't want to take them for whatever reason.

I ask that you go spend some time working in a shelter with the vets and to take some shelter medicine classes while you are in vet school. I think you will become aware of some things that I don't think you are aware of now. That isn't a bad thing, you shouldn't be aware of those at this point. But I think you could learn some things that you don't already know and that might interest you.

 

[DVMDream]

Surprise option! I'm surprised to hear that the diabetic dog was euthanized, though.

It was either euthanize or allow its diabetes to get out of control in a shelter situation. An uncontrolled diabetic dog is not a good thing and I consider that to be neglect at best and abuse at worst.

 

[NStarz]

Euthanizing a spraying/pooping outside of the box cat because the owner doesn't want to take the time to try to fix the problem? .

Where do you draw the line at 'try?' In my case...was it before the T. foetus PCR? What about the endoscopy? What if she needed surgery? What if I decided all I wanted to try was deworming and metronidazole? What if I had another cat in the house and I was afraid of infectious disease? What if my landlord was going to kick me out if the cat had diarrhea on the carpet one more time? What if I had a small child at home who was getting into the cat's feces? What if this cat was coming between me and my husband and we were literally on the brink of divorce?

And you would be very hard pressed to find a shelter that would not have automatically euth'd a cat in this scenario. They can't afford that kind of workup.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

I feel like lines of communication keep getting crossed.

pinkpuppy, none of us are saying that convenience reasons (e.g. the ones in your last paragraph) are "enough" to euthanize an animal when you only consider those reasons by themselves. Of course not. No one here is going to say it's totally ok to euth a cat just because someone is tired of it or doesn't want it anymore. We're not stupid. We are arguing that there is a much bigger picture that needs to be taken into account DESPITE the fact that those reasons alone are what most people would consider insufficient to warrant euthanasia. And that the definitions of "exhausting all options" are very different depending on the area, the client, finances, etc.

Nobody thinks anyone is stupid. My original post was addressing the fact that the OP seemed to feel that veterinarians euthanize pets left and right, so I brought up the fact that there are responsibilities when it comes to euthanizing "at an owner's request." Although vague, it sounded like the OP was referring to these "convenience euths." Which opened a can of worms and questioning me about what I thought was "convenience" and what wasn't. Which I don't have a problem with, I enjoy the mental exercise and critical thinking.

Where do you draw the line at 'try?' In my case...was it before the T. foetus PCR? What about the endoscopy? What if she needed surgery? What if I decided all I wanted to try was deworming and metronidazole? What if I had another cat in the house and I was afraid of infectious disease? What if my landlord was going to kick me out if the cat had diarrhea on the carpet one more time? What if I had a small child at home who was getting into the cat's feces? What if this cat was coming between me and my husband and we were literally on the brink of divorce?

And you would be very hard pressed to find a shelter that would not have automatically euth'd a cat in this scenario. They can't afford that kind of workup.

Then you qualify to star in an episode of My Cat From Hell.

If you/your vet think deworming might solve the problem, then doing that is trying. When people have a cat that's been having accidents for some time, and they say they're tired of cleaning it up and want the cat euthanized....there's options, such as what you listed. Some clients don't even want to try deworming the cat, which is probably the cheapest out of what you listed, they just want it gone.

Maybe I'm not aware of all of the facts of the situation, but with having two cats, I'd say you could try separating them if your concerned about diseases while you potentially treat one cat, couldn't you?

 

[LetItSnow]

Where do you draw the line at 'try?'

Bingo. The million dollar question.

(And, I totally regret mentioning my own dog. I feel like the reason I mentioned it was completely missed. Ah well.)

 

[DVMDream]

Where do you draw the line at 'try?' In my case...was it before the T. foetus PCR? What about the endoscopy? What if she needed surgery? What if I decided all I wanted to try was deworming and metronidazole? What if I had another cat in the house and I was afraid of infectious disease? What if my landlord was going to kick me out if the cat had diarrhea on the carpet one more time? What if I had a small child at home who was getting into the cat's feces? What if this cat was coming between me and my husband and we were literally on the brink of divorce?

And you would be very hard pressed to find a shelter that would not have automatically euth'd a cat in this scenario. They can't afford that kind of workup.

I think it is also easy for people to get removed from just how stressful these things are for an owner and the animal. Having a cat that is urinating or pooping outside the box constantly puts a big strain on an owner and the cat isn't immune to that frustration. Animals can sense our frustrations and stress, which can further stress the animal. The constant clean up that goes on with the animal and the concern for the animal just builds. It isn't "fun" for either the owner or the pet. These aren't just simple inconveniences, they seriously impact peoples' lives and the animal's life. I think, even as vets, we can become a bit removed from just how stressful that is for an owner because we aren't dealing with it every day. But it really isn't as simple as, well it is just a bit of urine or poop, really not that hard to clean up, it is much more than that.

 

[DVMDream]

Nobody thinks anyone is stupid. My original post was addressing the fact that the OP seemed to feel that veterinarians euthanize pets left and right, so I brought up the fact that there are responsibilities when it comes to euthanizing "at an owner's request." Although vague, it sounded like the OP was referring to these "convenience euths." Which opened a can of worms and questioning me about what I thought was "convenience" and what wasn't. Which I don't have a problem with, I enjoy the mental exercise and critical thinking.



If you/your vet think deworming might solve the problem, then doing that is trying.

But that is just it... what do you qualify as "trying"? Do they just have to try one thing? Two things? Exhaust every option? What is trying? What if they don't have money for deworming? (I know how could they not, but I have met people that legitimately can not afford that). What then?

 

[NStarz]

Then you qualify to star in an episode of My Cat From Hell.

If you/your vet think deworming might solve the problem, then doing that is trying. When people have a cat that's been having accidents for some time, and they say they're tired of cleaning it up and want the cat euthanized....there's options, such as what you listed. Some clients don't even want to try deworming the cat, which is probably the cheapest out of what you listed, they just want it gone.

Maybe I'm not aware of all of the facts of the situation, but with having two cats, I'd say you could try separating them if your concerned about diseases while you potentially treat one cat, couldn't you?

When one spouse loves the cat and the other spouse just wants the cat gone and doesn't want to spend any more $ or clean up cat diarrhea, you'd be surprised re: my cat from hell

My point is, what if deworming doesn't fix it? Would that still be convenience euth?

Sure, I can agree with you that a person not wanting to at least deworm would get me a little grumpy. But where do you draw the line at convenience euth? Is it deworming once? How about twice? How about trying a hypoallergenic diet (after all, the kids LOVE to feed the cat french fries and BOY is that food $$$$)? Do you get what I'm saying? There's never a point where you can say "yes, this is the right thing" or "no, this is the wrong thing." Everyone's circumstances are different. And I think it's really important that we don't judge our clients for making the decisions they do, but help to guide them as their trusted professional. We have to be an advocate for both the animal and the client. I can tell you that I cried more than once during finals because I needed to clean **** out of the carpet yet again.

Re: two cats...not so easy. One cat ends up getting locked up in a room for the rest of its life (or however long it takes to work it up)...is that any fair to the cat? Now I'm concerned about welfare.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

I think it is also easy for people to get removed from just how stressful these things are for an owner and the animal. Having a cat that is urinating or pooping outside the box constantly puts a big strain on an owner and the cat isn't immune to that frustration. Animals can sense our frustrations and stress, which can further stress the animal. The constant clean up that goes on with the animal and the concern for the animal just builds. It isn't "fun" for either the owner or the pet. These aren't just simple inconveniences, they seriously impact peoples' lives and the animal's life. I think, even as vets, we can become a bit removed from just how stressful that is for an owner because we aren't dealing with it every day. But it really isn't as simple as, well it is just a bit of urine or poop, really not that hard to clean up, it is much more than that.

I'm not trying to imply that a cat with accidents is no big deal. Trust me, I can barely stand when my sister's dog comes over and has accidents, and that's only occasionally.

Bingo. The million dollar question.

(And, I totally regret mentioning my own dog. I feel like the reason I mentioned it was completely missed. Ah well.)

You mentioned it to see how I'd interpret your situation since I said I disagree with euthanizing healthy animals for pure convenience, no? You chose to use a quote of mine to which your situation doesn't even apply. You aren't in the mindset of "I don't want to deal with my dog, I'm moving. It's too much work, I don't want the dog in the car with me, etc." It seems like you're more along the lines of "My dog is going downhill, in considerable pain, and won't do well for the trip or thereafter. I don't want to cause unnecessary stress." It's not the same thing, at all. You chose to interpret my statement in a different way than what it was intended, even though context clues pointed to me referring to healthy animals. Not an ailing dog.

When one spouse loves the cat and the other spouse just wants the cat gone and doesn't want to spend any more $ or clean up cat diarrhea, you'd be surprised re: my cat from hell

My point is, what if deworming doesn't fix it? Would that still be convenience euth?

Sure, I can agree with you that a person not wanting to at least deworm would get me a little grumpy. But where do you draw the line at convenience euth? Is it deworming once? How about twice? How about trying a hypoallergenic diet (after all, the kids LOVE to feed the cat french fries and BOY is that food $$$$)? Do you get what I'm saying? There's never a point where you can say "yes, this is the right thing" or "no, this is the wrong thing." Everyone's circumstances are different. And I think it's really important that we don't judge our clients for making the decisions they do, but help to guide them as their trusted professional. We have to be an advocate for both the animal and the client. I can tell you that I cried more than once during finals because I needed to clean **** out of the carpet yet again.

Re: two cats...not so easy. One cat ends up getting locked up in a room for the rest of its life (or however long it takes to work it up)...is that any fair to the cat? Now I'm concerned about welfare.

The veterinarian needs to interpret the individual situation and use his/her judgement. I think I've said that several times at this point, though. Where you wouldn't euthanize, I might, and vice-versa. Any vet would probably say "I highly recommend you do _____, but we can try deworming and hope it works." You can't force a client to make the medically wise decision. I mean really, we have a boarder now that is urinating blood with confirmed stones. The owner won't do a cystotomy because the dog can still urinate. We can't force her to do the surgery. We can only answer the phone if/when she calls during emergency hours. What could be a cheaper cystotomy might very well turn into a several thousand dollar estimate, which might end up force the owner's hand at that point.

I know there is no "right or wrong answer." I don't think there is in nearly any euthanasia situation. I mean really, you can think a single situation is both "right and wrong." We had a dog with a severe tail abscess come in. The tail needed to be amputated, and the owners didn't have the $1000 to do so, so the dog was euthanized. However, they were aware their dog had a problem and didn't bring it in until a month or so later, when the entire tail became necrosed and they couldn't stand the smell anymore, saying that they were hoping it would go away on its own. Is it "wrong" that the dog was euthanized because they neglected to provide it care to prevent the initial problem from becoming a huge problem? Yes. Is it right that the dog was euthanized to end the suffering, even though it was a fixable, yet unaffordable, situation? Yes.

 

[Lupin21]

On the topic of human or vet med, I think probably no matter what decision is made, the grass being greener on the other side syndrome will likely pop up. Especially during the stress of medical school. The idealist views presented of conservation being a huge part of why vet medicine is a draw is kind of another reason in my mind to choose human medicine. I think having the dream of the unicorn while still earning a living in human medicine is much better than becoming disillusioned with vet med and then being stuck with the consequences of debt and low income. I don't see the same glamour being stated about human med, which makes me think there is at least some realism associated with that decision.

In the end, only the OP can figure out which route to take. Just has keep in mind that unhappiness is gonna happen with both at times, so one has to be okay with either reinvigorating the current situation somehow or throwing money and caution to the wind to change paths if no peace can be made until the nectar is drunk from the other goblet.

 

[DVMDream]

I'm not trying to imply that a cat with accidents is no big deal. Trust me, I can barely stand when my sister's dog comes over and has accidents, and that's only occasionally.

You mentioned it to see how I'd interpret your situation since I said I disagree with euthanizing healthy animals for pure convenience, no? You chose to use a quote of mine to which your situation doesn't even apply. You aren't in the mindset of "I don't want to deal with my dog, I'm moving. It's too much work, I don't want the dog in the car with me, etc." It seems like you're more along the lines of "My dog is going downhill, in considerable pain, and won't do well for the trip or thereafter. I don't want to cause unnecessary stress." It's not the same thing, at all. You chose to interpret my statement in a different way than what it was intended, even though context clues pointed to me referring to healthy animals. Not an ailing dog.

You made a very broad blanket statement that as veterinarians we have a responsibility to not euthanize animals simply for convenience. But that is very, very far from the truth.

Simple example: Every shelter veterinarian everywhere.

Not only that but convenience is such a broad term and can be interpreted in many ways. Is it really considered "convenience" to euthanize a cat that is spraying?? Maybe? Maybe not? The point is, there is NO responsibility for vets to not euthanize healthy animals (it isn't something we want to do or recommend, but it happens), your first blanket statement is completely false, regardless of any extra details in any case that is presented. Healthy animals are euthanized by veterinarians every day simply due to the convenience of not having to find them space or a place to live.

 

[Doktor Timo]

Keep in mind that if you insist that an owner take their pet to a shelter instead of euthanizing, you're essentially just telling the vet at the shelter "Here, you euthanize this for me."

 

[LetItSnow]

You mentioned it to see how I'd interpret your situation since I said I disagree with euthanizing healthy animals for pure convenience, no?

No, that's not why I mentioned it. I mentioned it because you issued what sounded an awful like like (yet another) judgmental, blanket statement, and my point was that individual cases have individual contexts that make each case potentially unique. My case certainly was encompassed by your original statement - but didn't deserve the condemnation that you had implied. So my point was that you're tossing out a net that might be catching a lot more than you intend, and you may want to consider being more careful. I certainly interpreted your initial statement as pretty judgmental, when maybe you didn't really mean it that way.

The veterinarian needs to interpret the individual situation and use his/her judgement. I think I've said that several times at this point, though.

Correct. But you didn't sound like you were saying that initially. You very much sounded like you were laying down a blanket statement that could very easily have been perceived as judgmental about a vet doing a euthanasia that fell under your umbrella.

Ok, really truly I promise I'm exiting the conversation now. I don't feel like it's accomplishing much, and I feel like you aren't really interested in constructive feedback.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

Keep in mind that if you insist that an owner take their pet to a shelter instead of euthanizing, you're essentially just telling the vet at the shelter "Here, you euthanize this for me."

Yep, which is why I said you can be just passing the buck onto the shelter. However, recommending that the animal be taken to a shelter would still give it that chance, albeit slim, that it will be adopted.

No, that's not why I mentioned it. I mentioned it because you issued what sounded an awful like like (yet another) judgmental, blanket statement, and my point was that individual cases have individual contexts that make each case potentially unique. My case certainly was encompassed by your original statement - but didn't deserve the condemnation that you had implied. So my point was that you're tossing out a net that might be catching a lot more than you intend, and you may want to consider being more careful. I certainly interpreted your initial statement as pretty judgmental, when maybe you didn't really mean it that way.



Correct. But you didn't sound like you were saying that initially. You very much sounded like you were laying down a blanket statement that could very easily have been perceived as judgmental about a vet doing a euthanasia that fell under your umbrella.

Ok, really truly I promise I'm exiting the conversation now. I don't feel like it's accomplishing much, and I feel like you aren't really is interested in constructive feedback.

I won't disagree that I am judgmental of pet owners who want to euthanize when euthanasia really does not need to occur. However, I will say again that my context clues and phrasing of "not wanting to deal with moving my dog" is entirely different than your saying "It would be cruel to move my dog." If your dog weren't in poor health, would you still euthanize it prior to the move just because you don't want to "deal with moving the dog?"

Each case is unique, but the common denominator that I'm referring to is that an owner wants the pet off their hands and (in the situations I have been referring to) automatically jumps to euthanasia without putting in effort to find other options.

 

[dyachei]

Yep, which is why I said you can be just passing the buck onto the shelter. However, recommending that the animal be taken to a shelter would still give it that chance, albeit slim, that it will be adopted.

I won't disagree that I am judgmental of pet owners who want to euthanize when euthanasia really does not need to occur. However, I will say again that my context clues and phrasing of "not wanting to deal with moving my dog" is entirely different than your saying "It would be cruel to move my dog." If your dog weren't in poor health, would you still euthanize it prior to the move just because you don't want to "deal with moving the dog?"

Each case is unique, but the common denominator that I'm referring to is that an owner wants the pet off their hands and (in the situations I have been referring to) automatically jumps to euthanasia without putting in effort to find other options.

and how many of those cases do you think vets really see? Because I have only seen 1 in my career that I didn't find another reason after probing even a little bit

 

[pinkpuppy9]

and how many of those cases do you think vets really see? Because I have only seen 1 in my career that I didn't find another reason after probing even a little bit

At my old job, there was a cat that was brought in for a euthanasia. Trying to learn, I asked the doctor why the cat was being euthanized/why the owners wanted it euthanized. I got a "I have no idea, nothing is wrong with it." That really resonated with me in a bad way, so I've paid a lot more attention to euthanasia events since.

Just being at this clinic for about three months, I've seen several different ones. Maybe it's the area (a bit rural with low income). They're moving, the dog is pregnant and the euth is cheaper than spaying the dog/letting her have the pups, all of the other ones I listed earlier. They always seem to be new clients/patients too. My boss usually recommends they take the dog to the cheaper monthly spay and neuter clinics, rehomes the dog (and then provides info for the rescues we work with), or whatever. I have yet to see her go ahead and just agree to a euthanasia upon request, especially without a medical history of the patient or some extremely compelling reason why the healthy animal should be euthanized, and that's something I admire. Maybe she's wrong, idk.

 

[dyachei]

At my old job, there was a cat that was brought in for a euthanasia. Trying to learn, I asked the doctor why the cat was being euthanized/why the owners wanted it euthanized. I got a "I have no idea, nothing is wrong with it." That really resonated with me in a bad way, so I've paid a lot more attention to euthanasia events since.

did the vet know more than she was sharing with you? Did the vet simply not probe further?

 

[DVMDream]

At my old job, there was a cat that was brought in for a euthanasia. Trying to learn, I asked the doctor why the cat was being euthanized/why the owners wanted it euthanized. I got a "I have no idea, nothing is wrong with it." That really resonated with me in a bad way, so I've paid a lot more attention to euthanasia events since.

Just being at this clinic for about three months, I've seen several different ones. Maybe it's the area (a bit rural with low income). They're moving, the dog is pregnant and the euth is cheaper than spaying the dog/letting her have the pups, all of the other ones I listed earlier. They always seem to be new clients/patients too. My boss usually recommends they take the dog to the cheaper monthly spay and neuter clinics, rehomes the dog (and then provides info for the rescues we work with), or whatever. I have yet to see her go ahead and just agree to a euthanasia upon request, especially without a medical history of the patient or some extremely compelling reason why the healthy animal should be euthanized, and that's something I admire. Maybe she's wrong, idk.

Sounds more like the vet didn't ask the client any questions. I have found that most people that say nothing is "wrong" when asked further, there actually is something wrong, but sometimes they are embarrassed to mention it. Or don't want to discuss how they can't afford vet care and the dog has some issue. Or whatever.

I have only seen 1 true convenience euthanasia request where there were zero other circumstances (outside a new baby).

 

[jmo1012]

But that is just it... what do you qualify as "trying"? Do they just have to try one thing? Two things? Exhaust every option? What is trying? What if they don't have money for deworming? (I know how could they not, but I have met people that legitimately can not afford that). What then?

Deworming isn't always cheap either, especially when you are talking large doses for multiple treatments over multiple months (ie for whipworms). I've been shocked at the cost and length of treatment recommended for some tthings this year! Eye opening 4th year moments!

 

[pinkpuppy9]

did the vet know more than she was sharing with you? Did the vet simply not probe further?

Well, I wouldn't know about anything she wasn't telling me. But her tone certainly implied that she had no bleeping clue and was just euthanizing this cat upon request that was perfectly healthy according to our records. I do think that vet had too many moments where she was just far too exasperated to care, though...

 

[dyachei]

Well, I wouldn't know about anything she wasn't telling me. But her tone certainly implied that she had no bleeping clue and was just euthanizing this cat upon request that was perfectly healthy according to our records. I do think that vet had too many moments where she was just far too exasperated to care, though...

but that's my point. Those cases are few and far between. Or at least, they should be if you ask the owner any questions.

So that vet might not be the best example for you to cite.

 

[Chkntree4]

"Hey guys I'm conflicted between med school and vet school, could you help me out in making this decision a bit?"

Convenience euthanasia argument ensues forever.

I'm just saying, if you want to argue about convenience euthanasias, maybe don't derail this person's thread such that every comment actually directed towards them is lost in the ocean of banter.

TL;DR start your own thread

 

[dyachei]

"Hey guys I'm conflicted between med school and vet school, could you help me out in making this decision a bit?"

Convenience euthanasia argument ensues forever.

I'm just saying, if you want to argue about convenience euthanasias, maybe don't derail this person's thread such that every comment actually directed towards them is lost in the ocean of banter.

TL;DR start your own thread

It's the nature of a forum that sometimes things derail. Since the OP talked about it in their original post, it's not too far off track

 

[pinkpuppy9]

It's the nature of a forum that sometimes things derail. Since the OP talked about it in their original post, it's not too far off track

Ahhh beat me to it

 

[DVMDream]

"Hey guys I'm conflicted between med school and vet school, could you help me out in making this decision a bit?"

Convenience euthanasia argument ensues forever.

I'm just saying, if you want to argue about convenience euthanasias, maybe don't derail this person's thread such that every comment actually directed towards them is lost in the ocean of banter.

TL;DR start your own thread

You realize no one has discussed that topic for hours. Right? You are just now bringing it back up.

You also realize that the topic discussed could very well help the OP and apply to the OP? Maybe it is a topic the OP never thought about it and now has some insight into something else vet med related.

You also realize that threads do often go off on tangents... it happens. As long as they aren't bad tangents or 100% not related, which this isn't because the OP mentioned euthanasia in her original post.

 

[NStarz]

Choose vet med...because people are gross. /Endthread

 

[pinkpuppy9]

Choose vet med...because people are gross. /Endthread

 

[Chkntree4]

I understand that your discussion is relevant and may help someone choose between med and vet school. However, this argument has wandered so far away from the actual topic that it's not relevant anymore, it's just you guys fighting basically. Making a comment here in there, but a couple full pages of the same argument seems to be pretty derailing.

Also the fact that it's been going on "for hours" doesn't really make a difference, and if you look back through the hours of arguing you'll see a few people directly addressing OP's concerns, not carrying on their own argument and masquerading it as "slightly relevant" to make it okay. I'm just saying, it's a solid discussion and very complex and would be an awesome thread to start independent of someone's genuine concerns about their career choices.

 

[jmo1012]

...why do you care?

 

[Chkntree4]

Philanthropy

 

[DVMDream]

I understand that your discussion is relevant and may help someone choose between med and vet school. However, this argument has wandered so far away from the actual topic that it's not relevant anymore, it's just you guys fighting basically. Making a comment here in there, but a couple full pages of the same argument seems to be pretty derailing.

Also the fact that it's been going on "for hours" doesn't really make a difference, and if you look back through the hours of arguing you'll see a few people directly addressing OP's concerns, not carrying on their own argument and masquerading it as "slightly relevant" to make it okay. I'm just saying, it's a solid discussion and very complex and would be an awesome thread to start independent of someone's genuine concerns about their career choices.

And since when are you the deciding factor on what happens in a thread? Considering a forum moderator has posted that this is ok and still "on-topic" why are you arguing it isn't? Threads go off on slight tangents all the time, it is the nature of posting in a forum. Adjust and adapt to it.

 

[dyachei]

Philanthropy

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Chkntree4 can now start a new thread on why we shouldn't derail threads.

 

[Chkntree4]

It's a right given to me by this forum for me to argue that your argument is off topic, adjust and adapt to it.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Oh ****.

He's got RIGHTS y'all.

 

[DVMDream]

Oh ****.

He's got RIGHTS y'all.

I just want to know who he is donating money to? And if I can get in on that.