Vote for President

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Vote for President

  • Hillary Clinton

    Votes: 150 52.1%
  • Donald Trump

    Votes: 138 47.9%

  • Total voters
    288
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I definitely believe that every member of SCOTUS has/had degrees of ambition and effort well beyond the rest of us. I respect where he came from. I guess I should clarify that he doesn't impress me as a Supreme Court judge. Although even beyond that, in honesty I can't say that I've read or heard anything about his contribution to the court that makes me think he belongs there.
Oral arguments during Supreme Court cases are the time not just for asking questions, but debating and convincing among the justices. He has had nothing to offer during these periods for years. He says nothing, than invariably takes the conservative vote.

I'm sure he's not a dumb man. But I don't think he is of the caliber of intellectual curiosity and ability as the others.
Maybe he's just quiet and introspective, and has amazing insight that he doesn't care to share. I doubt it.

It's nice of him to give the young man the ticket.
1) Thomas just doesn't ask questions during oral arguments. In general oral arguments only occur about 6 times per week for about 6 hours total in the entire week. Usually two hours per day on Mon, Tues, and Wed. Why not consider how he spends the rest of his 34+ hours as Supreme Court justice? Why focus on these ~6 hours as the best indicator of his intelligence?

2) I think when you're comparing how smart justices are to each other, you're probably comparing decimal points in the 99th percentile (e.g. 99.5 vs. 99.6). Several justices and legal scholars on both sides, liberal and conservative, have each said how intelligent they've considered others on opposing sides are including Thomas. I'd say it's pretty much a given that if you're a Supreme Court justice you're probably very smart, and that goes for both sides.

3) Ironically Scalia asked the most questions of any of the justices. Yet earlier you said he was "overrated". However, if it's true (according to you) that asking more questions is correlated with more intelligence, then Scalia isn't "overrated" in terms of intelligence. He'd be the most intelligent Supreme Court justice during his time on the Court by your measure.

4) Harry Blackmun, William Brennan, and Thurgood Marshall all were relatively silent and didn't ask many questions. Does this mean they're not so intelligent?

5) Thomas' own explanation for his silence: "I don’t see where that advances anything. Maybe it’s the Southerner in me. Maybe it’s the introvert in me, I don’t know. I think that when somebody’s talking, somebody ought to listen." Thomas has also said he's friends with Justice Breyer (liberal Democrat) and will ask Breyer to ask questions on his behalf during oral arguments. Not to mention since Thomas was raised speaking an African-American creole language (Gullah), he's said he feels his English is unpolished, and feels self-conscious when he speaks.

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Not to mention since Thomas was raised speaking an African-American creole language (Gullah), he's said he feels his English is unpolished, and feels self-conscious when he speaks.

25 years ago when he was getting grilled about Anita Hill he was extremely well-spoken and articulate.
 
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25 years ago when he was getting grilled about Anita Hill he was extremely well-spoken and articulate.
In that situation you don't really have much of a choice except to speak. It's not like you can simply refuse to answer every single question the Senate throws at you. This is to appoint you to the Supreme Court, after all!

Also, if it's true (as some say) individuals who are "well-spoken and articulate" reflect a certain intelligence, then it undermines the argument that he's not intelligent.
 
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Clarence Thomas is a total stooge. He hasn't said anything in 10 years! All he ever did was follow Scalia's lead anyway.
The "follow Scalia's lead" bit is a popular and oft repeated quip against Thomas, but it's poorly founded. For example:

1) Scalia and Thomas usually came down on the same side on controversial issues, but they didn't always reach their conclusions by the same reasoning.

2) Also, they've each written separate dissents at times.

3) They've each written majority opinions, while the other has written concurring opinions.

4) Scalia was broadly speaking a textualist and more specifically speaking an originalist, but Thomas tends towards a natural law perspective in his analysis.

5) Scalia and Thomas differed on the importance or relevance of oral arguments. Thomas has argued the real meat of the argument occurs in the legal briefs, submitted by lawyers on both sides, not oral arguments.

Bottom line: I don't think Thomas is as brilliant or will be as influential as Scalia, but Thomas is more intelligent and influential than he's portrayed by the media and in popular perception.
 
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Out of everything, I think his pandering to the KKK crowd by not readily denouncing Duke and his Trump University racketeering fraud scheme resonate as reasons as to why Trump shouldn't be made President. It doesn't help that he has a ton of other negative qualities and clearly a lack of understanding of most things needed to be a good President. The problem is, the rest of the GOP crowd are also lame. Hillary has her own baggage and Sanders is a not a viable candidate. He resonates with the millennials, but too bad they're too lazy to vote for their own cause.

It's all disappointing.
 
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I think Super Tuesday has only made his nomination more likely. Every other Republican candidate has reasons they are staying in. Cruz won 2 states tonight (two!), so he's "beating expectations." Rubio still feels he can win Florida, and Kasich feels he can win Ohio, and they each feel that will somehow "reset" the primary and enable them to beat Trump. So, basically, everyone is staying in, splitting the vote, and allowing Trump to keep doing what he's doing. If Trump wins Ohio and Florida, the fat lady will have sung.
 
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Out of everything, I think his pandering to the KKK crowd by not readily denouncing Duke and his Trump University racketeering fraud scheme resonate as reasons as to why Trump shouldn't be made President. It doesn't help that he has a ton of other negative qualities and clearly a lack of understanding of most things needed to be a good President. The problem is, the rest of the GOP crowd are also lame. Hillary has her own baggage and Sanders is a not a viable candidate. He resonates with the millennials, but too bad they're too lazy to vote for their own cause.

It's all disappointing.
I think out of everything, the worst is that he hasn't said ONE WORD that any dullard on the street couldn't say. No policy, no plan, no knowledge of history. Just brags and $hit talk.
 
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On the one hand, you say:
Stooge is one way of putting it. I usually go with "hack". Both are acceptable on exams.
On the other hand, you say:
I think out of everything, the worst is that he hasn't said ONE WORD that any dullard on the street couldn't say. No policy, no plan, no knowledge of history. Just brags and $hit talk.
Point is, just calling someone a "stooge" or "hack" without any concrete and reasonable evidence (and despite what I pointed out above explaining how Thomas isn't Scalia's "stooge" here and here) is something "any dullard on the street" could say.
 
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On the one hand, you say:

On the other hand, you say:

Point is, just calling someone a "stooge" or "hack" without any concrete and reasonable evidence (and despite what I pointed out above explaining how Thomas isn't Scalia's "stooge" here and here) is something "any dullard on the street" could say.


LOL Rekt
 
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On the one hand, you say:

On the other hand, you say:

Point is, just calling someone a "stooge" or "hack" without any concrete and reasonable evidence (and despite what I pointed out above explaining how Thomas isn't Scalia's "stooge" here and here) is something "any dullard on the street" could say.
I actually had quite a long reply that I posted Monday. Somehow I screwed up and it's not on here. Regardless, I'm not going to redo the whole thing. It was all I could do to take the time to respond to your Thomas defense with several paragraphs of my own, but I'll do a quick summary in a sec.

This is an Internet physician forum, not a second year university poli-sci course. I like to give opinion and move on. You have the option of researching and writing long position essays. There's nothing wrong with that. If I'm interested, I'll read it. I'd be lying if I said I'm deeply interested in the subject, but it was a good learning experience.

And I won't argue that I've said anything that a dullard couldn't say. I just express my opinions, most of which I think are pretty well reasoned and come with a decent grasp of modern and historical politics as well as history in general. I lean left for sure, and while this colors my interpretation of things, I know/believe that I'm more open minded than most of the liberals OR conservatives that I speak with. There are lots of hacks/stooges on both sides. Although I do strongly believe FOX news is the most stooge saturated news organization currently available.

As far as CT goes, I don't remember exactly what I wrote before, but I know a couple things I included. And I have to say, after my reading I was even MORE convinced that he's not good.

His non-contribution to oral arguments. Sad. This is a chance for justices to clarify and debate their positions. The reasons he doesn't contribute are nonsense in my opinion. Whether they did it historically is irrelevant, partly because briefs weren't given to justices before the arguments in the past. Now they get them in advance and can research the arguments and ask questions and debate. It's clearly an important component. CT has nothing to offer.

We disagree on him being in the top 99.9% just because he's a SCOTUS justice. His intellect/contributions don't impress me. I know he's smart, he finished Yale law school, albeit in the middle of his class. So yeah, he's not a dummy or anything.

I don't think I said that there's a correlation between between justice greatness and questions asked at oral arguments. If I did, I misspoke, and you should have dropped it from then on because no person worth talking to would say that. I do agree that I said Scalia is overrated. He was an ideologue and a hypocrite. He said some ridiculous things. He was pretty nimble at discussing constitutional law though, whether I agreed with him or not.

Other than Marshall, I don't know anything about those guys. My guess is if I did, I would think they're more impressive than CT.

His writings. Some are stupid. The stuff about the NBA being an example of prejudicial hiring going both ways. The stuff about the government not being responsible for legislating dignity, because, hey, even some slaves and Japanese interns were dignified. The BS about his favorite NFLer which he went on and on about in a COURT DECISION. The argument that the constitution should be so easily and stupidly dismissed in lieu of state decisions. He's not an impressive mind to me.

The more I read, the more I disagree with the idea that he's a great intellect. I WILL admit that he wasn't a stooge of Scalia. I think even Scalia probably thought he was often boneheaded and too far to the right. I think he's a hack.

As far as Trump goes, you have the right to believe he has offered well-reasoned policy/plan details that require some political or intellectual acumen. I disagree. Quite a bit. I think his speeches and interviews are idiotic, with few exceptions. I don't feel like offering any further explanation.
 
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I actually had quite a long reply that I posted Monday. Somehow I screwed up and it's not on here. Regardless, I'm not going to redo the whole thing. It was all I could do to take the time to respond to your Thomas defense with several paragraphs of my own, but I'll do a quick summary in a sec.

This is an Internet physician forum, not a second year university poli-sci course. I like to give opinion and move on. You have the option of researching and writing long position essays. There's nothing wrong with that. If I'm interested, I'll read it. I'd be lying if I said I'm deeply interested in the subject, but it was a good learning experience.

And I won't argue that I've said anything that a dullard couldn't say. I just express my opinions, most of which I think are pretty well reasoned and come with a decent grasp of modern and historical politics as well as history in general. I lean left for sure, and while this colors my interpretation of things, I know/believe that I'm more open minded than most of the liberals OR conservatives that I speak with. There are lots of hacks/stooges on both sides. Although I do strongly believe FOX news is the most stooge saturated news organization currently available.

As far as CT goes, I don't remember exactly what I wrote before, but I know a couple things I included. And I have to say, after my reading I was even MORE convinced that he's not good.

His non-contribution to oral arguments. Sad. This is a chance for justices to clarify and debate their positions. The reasons he doesn't contribute are nonsense in my opinion. Whether they did it historically is irrelevant, partly because briefs weren't given to justices before the arguments in the past. Now they get them in advance and can research the arguments and ask questions and debate. It's clearly an important component. CT has nothing to offer.

We disagree on him being in the top 99.9% just because he's a SCOTUS justice. His intellect/contributions don't impress me. I know he's smart, he finished Yale law school, albeit in the middle of his class. So yeah, he's not a dummy or anything.

I doubt that there's a correlation between between justice greatness and questions asked. If I did, I misspoke, and you should have dropped it from then on because no person worth talking to would say that. I do agree that I said Scalia is overrated. He was an ideologue and a hypocrite. He said some ridiculous things. He was pretty nimble at discussing constitutional law though, whether I agreed with him or not.

Other than Marshall, I don't know anything about those guys. My guess is if I did, I would think they're more impressive than CT.

His writings. Some are stupid. The stuff about the NBA being an example of prejudicial hiring going both ways. The stuff about the government not being responsible for legislating dignity, because, hey, even some slaves and Japanese interns were dignified. The BS about his favorite NFLer which he went on and on about in a COURT DECISION. The argument that the constitution should be so easily and stupidly dismissed in lieu of state decisions. He's not an impressive mind to me.

The more I read, the more I disagree with the idea that he's a great intellect. I WILL admit that he wasn't a stooge of Scalia. I think even Scalia probably thought he was often boneheaded and too far to the right. I think he's a hack.

As far as Trump goes, you have the right to believe he has offered well-reasoned policy/plan details that require some political or intellectual acumen. I disagree. Quite a bit. I think his speeches and interviews are idiotic, with few exceptions. I don't feel like offering any further explanation.
1) First of all, this sure is a long post for "a quick summary"! ;)

2) The most important thing to say is that neither you nor I are probably the best people to evaluate Clarence Thomas. That'd be better left to legal scholars. Thus, I present to you the Volokh Conspiracy's assessment of (one aspect of) Clarence Thomas here.
 
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1) First of all, this sure is a long post for "a quick summary"! ;)

2) The most important thing to say is that neither you nor I are probably the best people to evaluate Clarence Thomas. That'd be better left to legal scholars. Thus, I present to you the Volokh Conspiracy's assessment of (one aspect of) Clarence Thomas here.
Oh I'm sure there's someone better to evaluate anyone I've EVER evaluated. That's not going to stop me from having an opinion.
 
Still talking about the supreme court? Not the fact that Trump won 7/11 states yesterday?
 
Oh I'm sure there's someone better to evaluate anyone I've EVER evaluated. That's not going to stop me from having an opinion.
I don't doubt you. :) Anyone can have any opinion. However, the reason I cited the Volokh Conspiracy article is because it's written by a Yale educated professor of law who himself has clerked for the higher courts and likewise observed Clarence Thomas in oral arguments. His evaluation is far more informed than ours. In fact, his "opinion" is the opinion of a relevant expert and authority in the field. If an expert like him argues Clarence Thomas is more intelligent, nuanced, hard-working, or whatever than what you (or I) are saying, then (respectfully) I think I'll take his word over yours (or mine).
 
Still talking about the supreme court? Not the fact that Trump won 7/11 states yesterday?
Lol, true! :) Well, I'd say Trump did well, but actually underperformed his expectations. At least I had thought he was expected to sweep all the states except maybe TX? But instead Trump lost Texas, Oklahoma, Minnesota (where he came in third), almost lost Virginia, etc.
 
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Lol, true! :) Well, I'd say Trump did well, but actually underperformed his expectations. At least I had thought he was expected to sweep all the states except maybe TX? But instead Trump lost Texas, Oklahoma, Minnesota (where he came in third), almost lost Virginia, etc.
Lost the Eskimo nation too
 
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The most important thing to say is that neither you nor I are probably the best people to evaluate Clarence Thomas. That'd be better left to legal scholars. Thus, I present to you the Volokh Conspiracy's assessment of (one aspect of) Clarence Thomas here.
A good article, taken with a grain of salt. There are far more moderate authors available that will defend Clarence Thomas. I assume you know where this guy is on the spectrum.

Incidentally, CT and he agree that federal child labor and anti-discrimination laws are "unconstitutional", among virtually any other federal law that effects state's rights. If South Carolina wanted to ban Muslims from living in that state, or wanted to keep black people out of the medical field, Clarence Thomas would argue it's not the federal government's job to stop them. That's not hyperbole. Picture Ann Coulter on the Supreme Court.
 
A good article, taken with a grain of salt. There are far more moderate authors available that will defend Clarence Thomas. I assume you know where this guy is on the spectrum.
Yeah, I used the Volokh Conspiracy article because he doesn't agree with a lot of Clarence Thomas' conservative views, yet he can still respect and even be impressed by Thomas as a Supreme Court justice. If I had picked a conservative scholar who praised Thomas, then it might seem like the conservative scholar is only praising Thomas because they are both conservatives! :) Similarly, I recently heard Harry Reid saying he totally and vehemently disagrees with Ted Cruz obviously, but he can respect Cruz for who he is, what he's accomplished, etc. Similar idea.
 
Incidentally, CT and he agree that federal child labor and anti-discrimination laws are "unconstitutional", among virtually any other federal law that effects state's rights. If South Carolina wanted to ban Muslims from living in that state, or wanted to keep black people out of the medical field, Clarence Thomas would argue it's not the federal government's job to stop them. That's not hyperbole. Picture Ann Coulter on the Supreme Court.
It seems to me you just don't appreciate Thomas mainly because he's a conservative and you disagree with his conservative views. ;) That's cool, I don't agree with everything Thomas stands for either, but I still respect him as a Supreme Court justice.
 
Yeah, I used the Volokh Conspiracy article because he doesn't agree with a lot of Clarence Thomas' conservative views, yet he can still respect and even be impressed by Thomas as a Supreme Court justice. If I had picked a conservative scholar who praised Thomas, then it might seem like the conservative scholar is only praising Thomas because they are both conservatives! :) Similarly, I recently heard Harry Reid saying he totally and vehemently disagrees with Ted Cruz obviously, but he can respect Cruz for who he is, what he's accomplished, etc. Similar idea.
This guy IS a conservative. He doesn't deny his republicanism. (That's not to say he's unreasonable; I read a couple other articles by him that are pretty reasonable).
Harry Reid thinks Cruz is nuts and is bad for the country, whether he "respects" him or not. I suppose you could say my feelings on Thomas aren't TOO far from that.
 
It seems to me you just don't appreciate Thomas mainly because he's a conservative and you disagree with his conservative views. ;) That's cool, I don't agree with everything Thomas stands for either, but I still respect him as a Supreme Court justice.
Of COURSE someone's political views will effect your PERSONAL impression of their abilities at knowledge and logic. If their views, in YOUR opinion, are incongruous with history and rationalization, you are very likely to lose respect for them, regardless of their political roll. Should you respect their accomplishments? Sure. But there are plenty of "smart" historical figures who we collectively do NOT generally respect because of their ridiculous and/or extreme sociopolitical beliefs.

Maybe we're just arguing semantics.
 
This guy IS a conservative. He doesn't deny his republicanism. (That's not to say he's unreasonable; I read a couple other articles by him that are pretty reasonable).
I'd say he's a moderately leaning "conservative" libertarian.
Harry Reid thinks Cruz is nuts and is bad for the country, whether he "respects" him or not. I suppose you could say my feelings on Thomas aren't TOO far from that.
I didn't say I agree with Reid/Cruz. I'm only using Cruz/Reid to illustrate the point. Reid has profoundly different political views than Ted Cruz to put it mildly, yet Reid (I assume grudgingly) respects what Cruz has done.
 
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Of COURSE someone's political views will effect your PERSONAL impression of their abilities at knowledge and logic. If their views, in YOUR opinion, are incongruous with history and rationalization, you are very likely to lose respect for them, regardless of their political roll. Should you respect their accomplishments? Sure. But there are plenty of "smart" historical figures who we collectively do NOT generally respect because of their ridiculous and/or extreme sociopolitical beliefs.

Maybe we're just arguing semantics.
On the plus side, it sounds like you're improving in your opinion about Thomas, because originally you said you didn't find him an "impressive" person! :)
 
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My GOP Primary is coming up soon. The only GOP Candidate that can win the general election is Kasich; but, Kasich has zero chance of winning my state.

Honestly, the voter turn-out for Clinton vs Trump will be a low one. The winner will be the candidate that can mobilize the most voters which means Trump may actually win the Presidency.

If Biden was the nominee the Independents would likely vote for him.
 
My GOP Primary is coming up soon. The only GOP Candidate that can win the general election is Kasich; but, Kasich has zero chance of winning my state.

Honestly, the voter turn-out for Clinton vs Trump will be a low one. The winner will be the candidate that can mobilize the most voters which means Trump may actually win the Presidency.

If Biden was the nominee the Independents would likely vote for him.

Trump seems to be doing a good job bringing people in to vote, whether it's for or against him is a different discussion. I think voter turnout would be big if Trump were the nominee. He may not win, but it would be big. Cruz/Rubio/Kasich would not garner much turnout, neither does Hillary. Bernie might if they aren't out partying or watching a game.
 
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I appreciate your opinion: As it's been said, brevity is the soul of wit! However he's generally conservative (such as in his originalism with the Constitution) intermixed with libertarianism (example), but socially moderate/liberal. For example, he supports same-sex marriage. He called Obergefell "a great decision" though he disagreed with its reasoning.
 
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My GOP Primary is coming up soon. The only GOP Candidate that can win the general election is Kasich; but, Kasich has zero chance of winning my state.

Honestly, the voter turn-out for Clinton vs Trump will be a low one. The winner will be the candidate that can mobilize the most voters which means Trump may actually win the Presidency.

If Biden was the nominee the Independents would likely vote for him.
Apparently record voter turnouts in the Republican primaries. But who knows how that will play out in the general.

Trump might be able to mobilize a lot of supporters, but he'll likely mobilize a lot of opposition too.

Hillary. Meh. Maybe if someone like Elizabeth Warren is her VP. Or if she promises to appoint Warren to the Supreme Court. That might boost voter turnout...maybe.
 
The problem with many people, all around the world, is their lack of history knowledge (hence it repeats itself).

Anybody who's seen a demagogue in action, especially after they come to power, would never ever consider voting for them, not even in a beauty contest. Most of them are borderline psychopaths.
 
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The problem with many people, all around the world, is their lack of history knowledge (hence it repeats itself).

Anybody who's seen a demagogue in action, especially after they come to power, would never ever consider voting for them, not even in a beauty contest. Most of them are borderline psychopaths.

Let's face the music, they all suck.
 
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I appreciate your opinion: As it's been said, brevity is the soul of wit! However he's generally conservative (such as in his originalism with the Constitution) intermixed with libertarianism (example), but socially moderate/liberal. For example, he supports same-sex marriage. He called Obergefell "a great decision" though he disagreed with its reasoning.

Obama can shut down gitmo, but that doesn't make him a libertarian. Cruz is as Republican as they come. Libertarian-leaning is Rand Paul. Libertarian is Gary Johnson.
 
Apparently record voter turnouts in the Republican primaries. But who knows how that will play out in the general.

Trump might be able to mobilize a lot of supporters, but he'll likely mobilize a lot of opposition too.

Hillary. Meh. Maybe if someone like Elizabeth Warren is her VP. Or if she promises to appoint Warren to the Supreme Court. That might boost voter turnout...maybe.

Fauxcahontas? Lol

I think part of the reason trump is doing so well is that people are tired of politically correct, and he is so not that. Still not a good candidate, but he gets people riled up.
 
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Obama can shut down gitmo, but that doesn't make him a libertarian. Cruz is as Republican as they come. Libertarian-leaning is Rand Paul. Libertarian is Gary Johnson.
Uh, I wasn't talking about Cruz. Is that what you thought was happening? I'm referring to the author of the Volokh Conspiracy article, Prof. Ilya Somin. That should've been clear from the context as well as the fact that I explicitly linked to his material when I replied to you.
 
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