want to know where you matched?

[Psychotic]

Did I say it should matter to you personally, or that you should go to sleep feeling guilty? No. But you're implying it's 100.000000% ethical which is also not true.

Anyways. I checked too and I'm sleeping well. So this is just semantics... perhaps it's time for me to stop arguing on the internet.

Dude, you used "we" not "I" in your argument. I simply am taking "me" out of your "we."

I would love to see examples of what you believe is 100 percent ethical behavior.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[chronicidal]

That's a good point, they're not. We could wait an hour and find out in the privacy of our own place then go out and celebrate with the class. Still think the tradition is ridiculous though when you try to think about having a similar ceremony for step 1 scores (which really is news that only approximates your future, vs match results, which is actually your future). And I'm being whiny, I'll own it.

FWIW, my sibling's school made match day mandatory. More like match morning - since the Hawaii kids find out at the same time as everyone which means 7am. But it's a smaller school with some state-specific traditions requiring family to be there, etc... (only in Hawaii, haha...every auntie and uncle and tutu have to be there to give you leis and good wishes).

On a totally unrelated note - I found a cache folder in my desktop files (not via chrome://cache/) from yesterday with a whole bunch of code from what is clearly the NRMP website. It's a huge file and searching terms like "all programs" or my #1-3 programs NRMP code gets me nowhere. Anyone have any suggestions, since it looked like I eff-ed up my chances of seeing the cache via chrome://cache/ by logging onto NRMP today? I have a feeling I'm beating a dead horse here, but it ain't like I'll be able to focus on anything else...

If it's a chrome cache file and it looks like hex code, go to this site: http://bit.ly/1hz07JJ
Paste in the code, download the file. Open the file using 7zip or other kind of program that can decompress .gz files. Then change the extension on the file to .html and open in a browser.

 

[keindo]

Dude, you used "we" not "I" in your argument. I simply am taking "me" out of your "we."

I would love to see examples of what you believe is 100 percent ethical behavior.

Only having sex with girls who are at least (1/2 your age + 7) years old.

 

[gutonc]

Ethics is more than superficial. Granted they screwed up and put our match results in the source of the web page. And someone stumbled upon it accidentally. But then people started finding out they could circumvent the match process and find out their match results. They told all their friends and fellow classmates, spread it all over the internet. Then they started to post that they matched into their first, second, whatever choice all over the internet. Where is the point where it was a simple mistake and flagrant violation of the rules? Does it make it ethical to do something when it's easy to violate the rules vs. difficult? It is okay when you can't get caught (i.e. viewing a web page source is not traceable), and only wrong when you get caught?

Dude...nobody subverted the match process. No rules were violated. NRMP F'd up and got caught. The end. Unbunch your panties and go have a beer.

 

[QuackaDO]

Wow I've seen things in medicine justified the same way, "well it was someone else's fault", "well I didn't get caught", "I'll just back-date this chart entry...it'll be fine"...I'd hope my fellow residents would have more ethical fiber than this. I've seen residents fired for such lapses in judgement. Yes the NRMP screwed up, but that doesn't justify posting "I got my 1st pick!" kinda posts or posting that you can find out your match early kinda posts on SDN.

Seriously, it sounds like you're crying that other people are posting that they saw their spot, not that they actually went in and did it. Which is your problem? If it's what other people are SAYING then you need to seriously just grow up and get over it. I bet you're a fan of "participation medals" too, aren't you?

 

[serialsevens]

If it's a chrome cache file and it looks like hex code, go to this site: http://bit.ly/1hz07JJ
Paste in the code, download the file. Open the file using 7zip or other kind of program that can decompress .gz files. Then change the extension on the file to .html and open in a browser.

Thanks so much for your help! Unfortunately, it's not working for me. I clicked the link, pasted the code and got an error message that said:

So instead I tried the second tab on the senseful solutions website - the option "via saved cache file." I followed the instructions, tried to open the downloaded file with 7zip and nothing

Any ideas how to troubleshoot? Anything I'm doing wrong?

 

[elloco]

Hh

 

[QuackaDO]

Dude...nobody subverted the match process. No rules were violated. NRMP F'd up and got caught. The end. Unbunch your panties and go have a beer.

Like x 100

 

[Ronin786]

There is absolutely nothing unethical about having looked at the source code or about bragging. Why is bragging about getting your #1 any worse before Friday than after Friday? Because it makes people who couldn't catch it in time sad? That's just luck.

 

[LifetimeDoc]

I apologize. If everyone is doing it, and even though our match agreement says to uphold ethics in the process, well I guess ethics don't matter any more. Carry on.

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

I apologize. If everyone is doing it, and even though our match agreement says to uphold ethics in the process, well I guess ethics don't matter any more. Carry on.

1.) Are you serious?

2.) Are you a resident? If so, what's this to you?

3.) What ethical breach occurred? Applicants looked at the website that was freely available. If the NRMP had just randomly made the mistake of openly posting the matched hospital on Monday, and people saw it, would that be a breach of ethics? Some people chose to look further at the source code and - luckily - found what they were hoping to find. There was no hacking, no invasion of space that the NRMP was trying the protect. They posted the info openly on their website, thinking that cloaking it with the "Congrats you matched!" garbage would be enough to deter people from digging deeper.

4.) Lighten up. Please.

 

[Ronin786]

I apologize. If everyone is doing it, and even though our match agreement says to uphold ethics in the process, well I guess ethics don't matter any more. Carry on.

Ethics have nothing to do with it. According to you if the NRMP accidentally posted where we match on the R3 system, we were supposed to just ignore it and not talk about it. That doesn't even make any sense.

 

[shenanigi]

I apologize. If everyone is doing it, and even though our match agreement says to uphold ethics in the process, well I guess ethics don't matter any more. Carry on.

Did you match at your #1?

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

Seriously, it sounds like you're crying that other people are posting that they saw their spot, not that they actually went in and did it. Which is your problem? If it's what other people are SAYING then you need to seriously just grow up and get over it. I bet you're a fan of "participation medals" too, aren't you?

He wants "most ethical" medals, too.

 

[Killa Beez MD]

Nope, I got my #2 specialty. Hence, I'm super glad I found out about this now rather than at school where everyone would be harassing me with "omg, I'm shocked you didn't get xyz..." I'm still happy with where I ended up even though it's not my dream specialty, it's still a great program in a super fun city.

Sounds like you have a great attitude about it. Congrats on the match!

 

[LifetimeDoc]

1.) Are you serious?

2.) Are you a resident? If so, what's this to you?

3.) What ethical breach occurred? Applicants looked at the website that was freely available. If the NRMP had just randomly made the mistake of openly posting the matched hospital on Monday, and people saw it, would that be a breach of ethics? Some people chose to look further at the source code and - luckily - found what they were hoping to find. There was no hacking, no invasion of space that the NRMP was trying the protect. They posted the info openly on their website, thinking that cloaking it with the "Congrats you matched!" garbage would be enough to deter people from digging deeper.

4.) Lighten up. Please.

I'm a resident and in the match. I matched somewhere, though I don't know exactly where. The ethics, which don't seem to matter, is that we uphold the process. You find out on Friday at 1pm. Those that accidentally viewed the source code and saw where they matched weren't at fault. The NRMP is at fault. The people who posted or told others how to "find out where they matched" are at fault. They knew that they weren't supposed to know, but figured out well it's there for me to see so I'll take a look. What's the difference between looking at the match list if you happen to be at the PD's desk on Thursday and "sneak a peek" at their confidential match list. It's the act of knowing that you are getting the results ahead of time that matters, not that the NRMP screwed up and accidentally hid the code where most people wouldn't have found it without getting directions on how to do it. Most people aren't tech savvy to do that, but with a few simple directions it's easy.

 

[375RGRRGT]

I'm a resident and in the match. I matched somewhere, though I don't know exactly where. The ethics, which don't seem to matter, is that we uphold the process. You find out on Friday at 1pm. Those that accidentally viewed the source code and saw where they matched weren't at fault. The NRMP is at fault. The people who posted or told others how to "find out where they matched" are at fault. They knew that they weren't supposed to know, but figured out well it's there for me to see so I'll take a look. What's the difference between looking at the match list if you happen to be at the PD's desk on Thursday and "sneak a peek" at their confidential match list. It's the act of knowing that you are getting the results ahead of time that matters, not that the NRMP screwed up and accidentally hid the code where most people wouldn't have found it without getting directions on how to do it. Most people aren't tech savvy to do that, but with a few simple directions it's easy.

Thats a long post for a resident. Are you sure you want to leave your current program if you have the time to be the ethical police of the medical society?

 

[cognitus]

I'm kind of unsure where ethics comes into play here. I am one of the folks that found about the glitch too late. However, I'm not upset that others were luckier and found out where they match before Friday. The reason why I question the role of ethics is because there doesn't seem to be any harm or benefit in finding out where you match before Friday. It doesn't affect those that are going through SOAP. It also doesn't affect people like me that have matched but do not know where yet. This procedure of finding out where we matched on Friday seems to be based on some historical tradition that is becoming increasingly archaic. The glitch only allowed those who matched to see where he/she matched and no one else's results. I fault no one who was fortunate to learn match results early and I do not fault the OP either.

 

[LifetimeDoc]

Thats a long post for a resident. Are you sure you want to leave your current program if you have the time to be the ethical police of the medical society?

What's your point? Residents shouldn't care about ethics? We have ethical debates all the time, and it's important to being a physician. That's why I'm disappointed by all the folks on here thinking that it's alright to just jump over ethical considerations to get what they want. I know we're all in a high-stakes game to get into our careers. But sacrificing our ideals for it just isn't right.

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

What's your point? Residents shouldn't care about ethics? We have ethical debates all the time, and it's important to being a physician. That's why I'm disappointed by all the folks on here thinking that it's alright to just jump over ethical considerations to get what they want. I know we're all in a high-stakes game to get into our careers. But sacrificing our ideals for it just isn't right.

What ideals? Please articulate, step by step, how looking at publicly available information posted by NRMP is unethical.

 

[DmanGTR]

This thread made me lol multiple times. You people are amusing

 

[QuackaDO]

I apologize. If everyone is doing it, and even though our match agreement says to uphold ethics in the process, well I guess ethics don't matter any more. Carry on.

Hey bud, I'm not sure if you noticed or not, but NOBODY here agrees with your point of view or thinks "you know, he/she's right". Ya know, I could be wrong here, but I've heard in the past that if EVERYONE feels one way and one person does not it's pretty safe to assume that it's not EVERYONE is wrong and that the one lone outlier is "right".
Just think about it for a min... your absurb moral code or whatever you call it doesn't make everyone else "wrong" or uneithical, it just makes you the odd outlier who does not feel the same way. You may go play in your sandbox... alone... thank you for your attention.

 

[Thama]

What's your point? Residents shouldn't care about ethics? We have ethical debates all the time, and it's important to being a physician. That's why I'm disappointed by all the folks on here thinking that it's alright to just jump over ethical considerations to get what they want. I know we're all in a high-stakes game to get into our careers. But sacrificing our ideals for it just isn't right.

The problem is that nobody here agrees at all with you about the ethics of this situation, nor have you managed to provide any cogent argument other than bare assertion to demonstrate your moral calculus on the matter.

 

[LifetimeDoc]

What ideals? Please articulate, step by step, how looking at publicly available information posted by NRMP is unethical.

I've already posted about that, but I'll repeat...

The information wasn't "posted" by the NRMP. The webpage programmers *$^%-ed up and hid your exact match in the source code of the page. Most people, unless they are a web or computer programmer (I'm one actually), would never see it. Someone accidentally finds it, well no harm done they stumbled upon something they shouldn't have found. They should have reported it to the NRMP that they screwed up. We aren't supposed to know where we matched until 1pm on Friday, we all know that for a fact. Then someone posts on here, "guess what, you can find out where you matched...just follow these simple steps...". They posted how to circumvent the website, though it's simple to do it's still getting around the fact that we aren't supposed to know. The news spreads like wildfire. You know that you can get answers to board exams by calling someone in a different time zone? No harm done. Nobody will find out, just call your friend. Taking an in-service exam in residency? No harm done, just look up the answers on Google! It's not like they had an armed guard watching us. If they don't find out, it's not un-ethical! Forgot to enter something in the chart? Just back-date your entry, nobody will know!

The information wasn't public. If you just brought up the web page and it showed where you matched, then no harm done. It was hidden in javascript code that most people would never have seen. Well if you saw where you matched, you should have just said "whoops" and thought to yourself "dang, I'm lucky to know where I matched" and left it at that. But now, you have to tell other people, post on here that "Hey, I got my #1 spot!". You get a leg up on the rest of us in the same match, those of us following the rules. You can say "Hey, I can sleep at night". Well I've had people say that about patient care when they screw up and cover their tracks, justifying their actions using the same logic. Scares the hell out of me.

 

[DarkLordofSith]

The NRMP should probably at least either 1: let us all see our match results or 2: issue an official match violation to all the folks bragging that they know their result. It's unfair to let people get away with violating the match rules and then bragging about it.

So to sum up your argument:

"It's totally absolutely unethical, what the hell is wrong with you people?!
.......
Unless I can find out too. In that case, we're cool"

 

[DarkLordofSith]

So to sum up your argument:

"It's totally absolutely unethical, what the hell is wrong with you people?!
.......
Unless I can find out too. In that case, we're cool"

And to sum up my argument:

 

[LifetimeDoc]

Ethics have nothing to do with it. According to you if the NRMP accidentally posted where we match on the R3 system, we were supposed to just ignore it and not talk about it. That doesn't even make any sense.

Actually yes. Talking about where you matched, before Friday at 1pm is a match violation. Some people find out earlier, due to couples match, what state they matched in and other circumstances. You aren't allowed to let other people know. It's part of the process.

 

[MadHopsMD]

Sorry I am playing devil's advocate. This is kinda fun.

I've already posted about that, but I'll repeat...

The information wasn't "posted" by the NRMP. The webpage programmers *$^%-ed up and hid your exact match in the source code of the page. Most people, unless they are a web or computer programmer (I'm one actually), would never see it. Someone accidentally finds it, well no harm done they stumbled upon something they shouldn't have found. They should have reported it to the NRMP that they screwed up. We aren't supposed to know where we matched until 1pm on Friday, we all know that for a fact. Then someone posts on here, "guess what, you can find out where you matched...just follow these simple steps...". They posted how to circumvent the website, though it's simple to do it's still getting around the fact that we aren't supposed to know. The news spreads like wildfire. You know that you can get answers to board exams by calling someone in a different time zone? No harm done. Nobody will find out, just call your friend. Taking an in-service exam in residency? No harm done, just look up the answers on Google! It's not like they had an armed guard watching us. If they don't find out, it's not un-ethical! Forgot to enter something in the chart? Just back-date your entry, nobody will know! .

Your results that you got on your inservice exams or board exams effect everyone else. because most of the time these exams are curved. also if answers are correct by only a certain percentage the question gets dropped. so googling answers, hurts others. Of course there is a risk of you hurting your patients because you wont learn from the wrong answers. Even forgeting to back date it can be considered harmful because again it can hurt people.

The way I see it, finding out your match does NOT hurt anyone. Nothing changes other than the fact that you know the result.

Yes I can see why this might rub the people the wrong way. I guess. But my definition of ethics is different I guess. I will not do anything that will cause direct or even indirect harm to anyone else. I do not see this NRMP mistake as a wrong. Unless I am missing something ???

The information wasn't public. If you just brought up the web page and it showed where you matched, then no harm done. It was hidden in javascript code that most people would never have seen. Well if you saw where you matched, you should have just said "whoops" and thought to yourself "dang, I'm lucky to know where I matched" and left it at that. But now, you have to tell other people, post on here that "Hey, I got my #1 spot!". You get a leg up on the rest of us in the same match, those of us following the rules. You can say "Hey, I can sleep at night". Well I've had people say that about patient care when they screw up and cover their tracks, justifying their actions using the same logic. Scares the hell out of me.

Um I see this has someone trying to help the rest. Its altruistic. When the NRMP ****ed up, the rules changed. The person posting was trying to level the playing field

 

[Shinkansen]

soo, sorry if i overlooked this but is there any way to see my cache from safari?

edit: i know how to check my safari cache folder in finder. no luck there. was wondering if there was another way. cheers.

 

[Ronin786]

Actually yes. Talking about where you matched, before Friday at 1pm is a match violation. Some people find out earlier, due to couples match, what state they matched in and other circumstances. You aren't allowed to let other people know. It's part of the process.

Nothing in the NRMP rules state you're not allowed to let anybody know. They only say that THEY will reveal results on Friday at 1PM ET.

People who match advanced and call the NRMP to find out what state they're in can let anybody they want know. There is no embargo on who you can share good news with.

The act of finding out where YOU matched is absolutely not unethical. No circumvention of anything was done. No hacking was done. It was a slip-up by the NRMP. Seriously, there is no harm or benefit to anybody by doing this, since it is you and you alone that is affected.

Also what sort of "leg up" is there by finding out where I matched? How does that affect you at all, even if I say I got my number 1? You missing out on it doesn't make you any more ethical than anybody else, it just makes you late.

 

[LifetimeDoc]

Nothing in the NRMP rules state you're not allowed to let anybody know. They only say that THEY will reveal results on Friday at 1PM ET.

People who match advanced and call the NRMP to find out what state they're in can let anybody they want know. There is no embargo on who you can share good news with.

The act of finding out where YOU matched is absolutely not unethical. No circumvention of anything was done. No hacking was done. It was a slip-up by the NRMP. Seriously, there is no harm or benefit to anybody by doing this, since it is you and you alone that is affected.

Also what sort of "leg up" is there by finding out where I matched? How does that affect you at all, even if I say I got my number 1? You missing out on it doesn't make you any more ethical than anybody else, it just makes you late.

From Facebook:

I have a question. Since I applied as a couple; I got match but my wife didn't, so I was able to know the state I got matched in. Because in that state I applied to only one program, I knew that I matched there!
My question: is this a confidential information that I shouldn't disclose to my friends? And the program themselves?

National Resident Matching ProgramHi Ibrahaim! Please do not share that information with the program before Friday at 1pm ET. If you do, it is a violation of the Match Participation Agreement.

 

[DarkLordofSith]

From Facebook:

I have a question. Since I applied as a couple; I got match but my wife didn't, so I was able to know the state I got matched in. Because in that state I applied to only one program, I knew that I matched there!
My question: is this a confidential information that I shouldn't disclose to my friends? And the program themselves?

National Resident Matching ProgramHi Ibrahaim! Please do not share that information with the program before Friday at 1pm ET. If you do, it is a violation of the Match Participation Agreement.

Fun with reading comprehension!

 

[LifetimeDoc]

mmm, is a public Internet forum never read by programs? Besides you're missing the point of the entire agreement. It's more then semantics. "Well they said I couldn't tell PROGRAMS!". You aren't supposed to know and share that information until it's public on Friday with anyone. Feel privileged that you knew ahead of time, privately.

 

[MadHopsMD]

Nothing in the NRMP rules state you're not allowed to let anybody know. They only say that THEY will reveal results on Friday at 1PM ET.

If you go by unethical by the webster's dictionary which is" lacking moral principles; unwilling to adhere to proper rules of conduct." No rules were broken, because it has not been described. Yes it is an unwritten rule, open to interpretation. Does that make it right? Well no. But it doesnt make it wrong either!!!

Next year, they should put in the rule book "please do not look at code". Maybe then it be unethical.

 

[LifetimeDoc]

If you go by unethical by the webster's dictionary which is" lacking moral principles; unwilling to adhere to proper rules of conduct." No rules were broken, because it has not been described. Yes it is an unwritten rule, open to interpretation. Does that make it right? Well no. But it doesnt make it wrong either!!!

Next year, they should put in the rule book "please do not look at code". Maybe then it be unethical.

So if I'm doing a rotation at my top choice, and my PD goes to lunch with his door unlocked, it's okay if I sneek in and look at their rank list after the ROL deadline? No harm done, doesn't affect anyone or the match itself. Right? I'm careful to only look at my name, and I don't remember or even recognize the other names. Or better yet, I find a copy of the list in the trash can, no sneeking required.

 

[pithecanthropus]

I've already posted about that, but I'll repeat...

The information wasn't "posted" by the NRMP. The webpage programmers *$^%-ed up and hid your exact match in the source code of the page. Most people, unless they are a web or computer programmer (I'm one actually), would never see it. Someone accidentally finds it, well no harm done they stumbled upon something they shouldn't have found. They should have reported it to the NRMP that they screwed up. We aren't supposed to know where we matched until 1pm on Friday, we all know that for a fact. Then someone posts on here, "guess what, you can find out where you matched...just follow these simple steps...". They posted how to circumvent the website, though it's simple to do it's still getting around the fact that we aren't supposed to know. The news spreads like wildfire. You know that you can get answers to board exams by calling someone in a different time zone? No harm done. Nobody will find out, just call your friend. Taking an in-service exam in residency? No harm done, just look up the answers on Google! It's not like they had an armed guard watching us. If they don't find out, it's not un-ethical! Forgot to enter something in the chart? Just back-date your entry, nobody will know!

The information wasn't public. If you just brought up the web page and it showed where you matched, then no harm done. It was hidden in javascript code that most people would never have seen. Well if you saw where you matched, you should have just said "whoops" and thought to yourself "dang, I'm lucky to know where I matched" and left it at that. But now, you have to tell other people, post on here that "Hey, I got my #1 spot!". You get a leg up on the rest of us in the same match, those of us following the rules. You can say "Hey, I can sleep at night". Well I've had people say that about patient care when they screw up and cover their tracks, justifying their actions using the same logic. Scares the hell out of me.

I agree. I first saw this thread several hours after it started. I thought long and hard about whether I should look, and ultimately, I did not. It's an issue of self-restraint. The fact that you can do something does not mean that you should. If the guy in front of you drops a dollar, I think most people would agree that calling finders keepers, while of minimal harm, is an inappropriate response. If you happen across the key to an upcoming exam, you don't study the key and then pass it around to your friends, all the while justifying to yourself that it was the prof's fault for dropping the key somewhere.

The rule is that we find out Friday. To get around that, you had to actively choose to exploit someone else's error. It wasn't just "Hospital X" popping up on your screen when you logged in. You had to go looking for it. Moreover, if everyone had just waited a few days, maybe the programmer who made this error would have been sternly reprimanded, learned from his mistake and kept his job. He's surely done now at his current place of employment and won't be getting much of a recommendation from them either - partially because he screwed up, and partially because everyone who looked magnified his error thousands of times over.

Anyway, I'm not going to argue beyond this post. The amount of vitriol directed at this poster tells me that you all know full well that what you did was shady. Not a huge deal, but shady. It's legitimate to wonder what other corners you'd be willing to cut to get what you want.

 

[elektroshok]

Someone on this thread needs a beer. Or five. Not going to say who tho since that's probably a match violation somehow...

 

[DarkLordofSith]

mmm, is a public Internet forum never read by programs? Besides you're missing the point of the entire agreement. It's more then semantics. "Well they said I couldn't tell PROGRAMS!". You aren't supposed to know and share that information until it's public on Friday with anyone. Feel privileged that you knew ahead of time, privately.

I haven't seen a single person say that they matched at a specific program. And if they did, it would still be randominternetguy1 says he matched at UCSF/Harvard/Whatever. I don't understand the point you're trying to make. It keeps changing.

 

[jm192]

LOL

Seriously guys? NRMP glitches and we're going into an ethics debate?

I'll assume most of you are 4th years. The only things we should be debating are showing up for a 1/2 day Friday and what beer to drink first.

 

[nybgrus]

LifetimeDoc is absolutely correct. Ethics do not require harm. Just because something is harmless doesn't make it ethical. Just because it is harmful doesn't make it unethical. It is all dependent on the context. If the premise is not to do something, then finding a sneaky way to do it that doesn't technically violate the specific letter of the rules can indeed still violate the spirit of it. Ethics is about the spirit not the letter. And yes, you can have ethical transgressions of varying degrees. Something like this is indeed a much lesser transgression than most others, but to deny it is a transgression at all is simply to be ignorant of ethics. In other words we can quibble over how big of an ethical violation it is, in which case the harm from it indeed is a relevant point, but it cannot be denied that it is a violation to some degree.

Flame on.

*edit* - and yeah, it is a much overblown discussion. But that doesn't mean it isn't legitimate at base.

 

[TooMuchResearch]

LifetimeDoc is absolutely correct. Ethics do not require harm. Just because something is harmless doesn't make it ethical. Just because it is harmful doesn't make it unethical. It is all dependent on the context. If the premise is not to do something, then finding a sneaky way to do it that doesn't technically violate the specific letter of the rules can indeed still violate the spirit of it. Ethics is about the spirit not the letter. And yes, you can have ethical transgressions of varying degrees. Something like this is indeed a much lesser transgression than most others, but to deny it is a transgression at all is simply to be ignorant of ethics. In other words we can quibble over how big of an ethical violation it is, in which case the harm from it indeed is a relevant point, but it cannot be denied that it is a violation to some degree.

Flame on.

*edit* - and yeah, it is a much overblown discussion. But that doesn't mean it isn't legitimate at base.

I deny that it is a transgression.

 

[RangerBob]

I agree. I first saw this thread several hours after it started. I thought long and hard about whether I should look, and ultimately, I did not. It's an issue of self-restraint. The fact that you can do something does not mean that you should. If the guy in front of you drops a dollar, I think most people would agree that calling finders keepers, while of minimal harm, is an inappropriate response. If you happen across the key to an upcoming exam, you don't study the key and then pass it around to your friends, all the while justifying to yourself that it was the prof's fault for dropping the key somewhere.

The rule is that we find out Friday. To get around that, you had to actively choose to exploit someone else's error. It wasn't just "Hospital X" popping up on your screen when you logged in. You had to go looking for it. Moreover, if everyone had just waited a few days, maybe the programmer who made this error would have been sternly reprimanded, learned from his mistake and kept his job. He's surely done now at his current place of employment and won't be getting much of a recommendation from them either - partially because he screwed up, and partially because everyone who looked magnified his error thousands of times over.

Anyway, I'm not going to argue beyond this post. The amount of vitriol directed at this poster tells me that you all know full well that what you did was shady. Not a huge deal, but shady. It's legitimate to wonder what other corners you'd be willing to cut to get what you want.

I agree with this. And I think pithecanthropus points to the most important thing--most people here acted in their own self-interest, which I suppose is to be expected in most scenarios in human life. I've certainly been guilty of that a ton of times in my life. But that poor programmer(s)--think about what's happening/happened to them. There's a good chance they have a family to support. At the very least they're supporting themselves. And there is probably a very good chance they got fired (I'm sure the NRMP contracts the programming out, and now maybe both that programmer was fired and the company lost it's future contracts). True, they made a huge mistake. But someone could have brought this to the NRMP's attention, and not posted it all over the internet, then at least the programmer would only be answering to that programming mistake, and not all the (avoidable, I may add) fallout associated with students knowing where the matched early.

Just remember that just about all of us are going to become physicians and will do fine in life, even with our mountains of debt. Not everyone else out there will, and it just seems like everyone is forgetting that this isn't exactly a victimless "crime." I don't blame people for not thinking about that ahead of time--I'm sure you were all really excited about finding where you matched, so it probably didn't cross your minds. It wouldn't have crossed mine for sure. I can't say what I would've done--I'd like to say I would have waited because that's what feels right, but I won't lie it would've been nice to find out with my wife and no one else by my side.

There are a few real people that are suffering because of how this got out. I'd sure hope that if that programmer did actually get fired, and we would've known ahead of time, that everyone on this thread would not have looked at their match and propagated the information.

I realize there's nothing that can be done at this point--I just though it's important to keep in mind the livelihood and happiness of the the faceless humans behind the mistake.

 

[nybgrus]

I deny that it is a transgression.

Well, we can argue about it ad nauseum, but you are indeed incorrect. It is undeniable that the NRMP intends for and has rules in place to ensure that applicants do not know the specific results till Friday. This is plain as day in the Match rules. So intentionally taking any extra steps to determine what the NRMP has deemed you should not know at this time is by definition a transgression.

Is it big enough that I think anybody should really give a ****? No. Should there be consequences for it? I don't think so.

From a practical standpoint, I agree it is a minor or even meaningless point. But from an academic standpoint, it is an ethical transgression. LifetimeDoc made the very correct and good example of a continuum from 0-100. It is neither extreme, and it may be close to 0 (no transgression) but it is not 0. Exactly how close to 0 it is is a pedantic and purely academic point that is not objectively determinable.

 

[TooMuchResearch]

Well, we can argue about it ad nauseum, but you are indeed incorrect. It is undeniable that the NRMP intends for and has rules in place to ensure that applicants do not know the specific results till Friday. This is plain as day in the Match rules. So intentionally taking any extra steps to determine what the NRMP has deemed you should not know at this time is by definition a transgression.

Is it big enough that I think anybody should really give a ****? No. Should there be consequences for it? I don't think so.

From a practical standpoint, I agree it is a minor or even meaningless point. But from an academic standpoint, it is an ethical transgression. LifetimeDoc made the very correct and good example of a continuum from 0-100. It is neither extreme, and it may be close to 0 (no transgression) but it is not 0. Exactly how close to 0 it is is a pedantic and purely academic point that is not objectively determinable.

I disagree.

 

[nybgrus]

I disagree.

You disagree that the NRMP has those rules in place?

What am I asking... you don't actually have a reason for disagreeing beyond you simply don't. Which means your argument can just be dismissed.

I deny that it is a transgression.

I deny your reality and substitute my own. You truly are a masterful thinker.

 

[TooMuchResearch]

You disagree that the NRMP has those rules in place?

What am I asking... you don't actually have a reason for disagreeing beyond you simply don't. Which means your argument can just be dismissed.



I deny your reality and substitute my own. You truly are a masterful thinker.

Read section 4.3 of the Match Agreement. The possible unethical/violation (maybe) that occurred was people posting things about getting their number 1/2/3/whatever, which is still ridiculous since nrmp had already told people whether or not they matched.

Someone posting to let us know to check out the source code and people the checking the code is not unethical. The post letting people know about the code issue was probably the right thing to do. You want to get rid of a silly old rule? Let the old rule expose itself for its silliness, and then work to dismantle it.

 

[nybgrus]

Read section 4.3 of the Match Agreement. The possible unethical/violation (maybe) that occurred was people posting things about getting their number 1/2/3/whatever, which is still ridiculous since nrmp had already told people whether or not they matched.

Someone posting to let us know to check out the source code and people the checking the code is not unethical. The post letting people know about the code issue was probably the right thing to do. You want to get rid of a silly old rule? Let the old rule expose itself for its silliness, and then work to dismantle it.

Yes, that is part of it. Section 4.3 is actually rather broad:

"It is a violation of this Agreement if any applicant or program shares any Match information from the R3 system, including but not limited to, information from the List of Unfilled Programs and Regional Match Statistics, with any individual who is not registered for the Match... it is a violation of this Agreement if any Match information from the R3 system, including information from the List of Unfilled Programs and Regional Match Statistics, is distributed or posted by any applicant or program to any web site or non- NRMP-related matching plan."

Any information. At the discretion of the NRMP. So unquestionably pretty much anyone here posting about the information can be held technically in violation. Once again, I agree it is ridiculous if they do, but as I said the discussion is academic not practical. From a purely academic standpoint it would still be a violation.

The code of professionalism coupled with the principle of specific timing of the release of information fills in the question of looking itself. And yet again, it is a purely academic point. But it stands nonetheless.

 

[je355804]

I agree with this. And I think pithecanthropus points to the most important thing--most people here acted in their own self-interest, which I suppose is to be expected in most scenarios in human life. I've certainly been guilty of that a ton of times in my life. But that poor programmer(s)--think about what's happening/happened to them. There's a good chance they have a family to support. At the very least they're supporting themselves. And there is probably a very good chance they got fired (I'm sure the NRMP contracts the programming out, and now maybe both that programmer was fired and the company lost it's future contracts). True, they made a huge mistake. But someone could have brought this to the NRMP's attention, and not posted it all over the internet, then at least the programmer would only be answering to that programming mistake, and not all the (avoidable, I may add) fallout associated with students knowing where the matched early.

That's certainly a lot of tertiary thinking required on the part of the OP... It's also entirely judgmental on your part.

When he first discovered this error in the system, I doubt his first thought was "what is the ramification for the programmer who messed this up." Sorry, but this just points to an entirely bigger problem, which hopefully nVictus was able to shine a light upon.

 

[p30doc]

So if I'm doing a rotation at my top choice, and my PD goes to lunch with his door unlocked, it's okay if I sneek in and look at their rank list after the ROL deadline? No harm done, doesn't affect anyone or the match itself. Right? I'm careful to only look at my name, and I don't remember or even recognize the other names. Or better yet, I find a copy of the list in the trash can, no sneeking required.

It's more like you get an email from said program director saying thank you for interviewing but he accidentally used an email chain to a send you this email. This chain is between him and the program coordinator. You happen to notice the reply chain at the bottom of the email expand it browse through it and see the program director giving instructions to make sure you are ranked to match.

 

[Gifted Hands]

This thread got really lame really fast