want to know where you matched?

[Ronin786]

Soo...basically the NRMP violated its OWN match policies. I seriously wonder about the security of everyone's personal information now too.

I'd love to know whether this exploit was available in past year's matches. I assume not since it wasn't found other than this time, but one has to wonder what sort of overhaul they were doing to the R3 system that let this slip through the cracks.

---

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[Burnt_toast]

I'd love to know whether this exploit was available in past year's matches. I assume not since it wasn't found other than this time, but one has to wonder what sort of overhaul they were doing to the R3 system that let this slip through the cracks.

I wonder if this will lead to any legal action. I personally find it highly inappropriate that some people would be able to see where they matched, and others did not. Further I am personally having trouble understanding my email from the NRMP. It's also inapprorpiate that they would not release the results by now. Probably half of applicants already know. Since they are so brutal and harsh with all their "violations" how is this not a violation on their part? This is a serious breach of confidentiality, that puts the whole process and system in question. How do I know that my results are legit? How do others? How do I know they did not screw up? They sure were incompetent enough to screw this up, so how do I know that they have not otherwise screwed up?

 

[Burnt_toast]

Soo...basically the NRMP violated its OWN match policies. I seriously wonder about the security of everyone's personal information now too.

Precisely this. I think some serious legal action should be taken or the NRMP dismantled altogether. This is serious. It affects thousands of people, who have devoted a lifetime of hard work, and spent hundreds of thousands.

 

[Psychotic]

I'd love to know whether this exploit was available in past year's matches. I assume not since it wasn't found other than this time, but one has to wonder what sort of overhaul they were doing to the R3 system that let this slip through the cracks.

Also wonder if/when on Friday it will be visible (before 1 PM EDT).

Not having to go through the match ceremony dog and pony show to find out where one matches is the greatest benefit of all...

 

[Burnt_toast]

In response to a question earlier in the thread, I just received confirmation from a coordinator I trust that programs could also discover which applicants on their ROL matched to their program. I haven't done it, and won't--I'm fine with waiting. No other information could be gleaned (if someone on your ROL didn't match with you, you didn't see where he/she did match), but it's obvious that the NRMP's code was written horribly and the people in charge should be held responsible as well as the programmer(s).

Agreed. I think legal action should be taken. The whole system is absolutely screwed up. These intransigent, arbitrary rules that the NRMP uses is absurd. We have to wait this or that to change programs, this and that is a violation, we have to wait a month for results, bla bla bla. How are they not to be held responsible for this? This is a serious break in the process, and i think a good time to have this awful organization to leave this. The process of finding a residency should be far more transparent, and much more akin to the rest of how the world finds a job.

Who's with me?

 

[Psychotic]

I wonder if this will lead to any legal action. I personally find it highly inappropriate that some people would be able to see where they matched, and others did not. Further I am personally having trouble understanding my email from the NRMP. It's also inapprorpiate that they would not release the results by now. Probably half of applicants already know. Since they are so brutal and harsh with all their "violations" how is this not a violation on their part? This is a serious breach of confidentiality, that puts the whole process and system in question. How do I know that my results are legit? How do others? How do I know they did not screw up? They sure were incompetent enough to screw this up, so how do I know that they have not otherwise screwed up?

Well, you don't know if they screwed up the Match or not, this year or every year. You have to take the results on faith; there is no appeal, no recourse. It has always been thus. I assume they get audited by an outside group, like the CPAs who tally the Oscar ballots.

As for "breach of confidentiality" - wtf are you talking about? Nobody's confidential data was breached by the source code glitch. Only the applicant could see his own results, nobody else's.

 

[keindo]

Well, you don't know if they screwed up the Match or not, this year or every year. You have to take the results on faith; there is no appeal, no recourse. It has always been thus. I assume they get audited by an outside group, like the CPAs who tally the Oscar ballots.

As for "breach of confidentiality" - wtf are you talking about? Nobody's confidential data was breached by the source code glitch. Only the applicant could see his own results, nobody else's.

I've heard some rumors of matches being screwed up in the past. In any case, leave it to NRMP to screw up a ****ing algorithm.

 

[Burnt_toast]

I've heard some rumors of matches being screwed up in the past. In any case, leave it to NRMP to screw up a ******* algorithm.

Exactly. They were inept enough to screw up something that is soooo confidential, how do we know they did not screw up the results? It's happened before. Supposedly the whole process takes so long because they check it manually.

 

[shenanigi]

Agreed. I think legal action should be taken. The whole system is absolutely screwed up. These intransigent, arbitrary rules that the NRMP uses is absurd. We have to wait this or that to change programs, this and that is a violation, we have to wait a month for results, bla bla bla. How are they not to be held responsible for this? This is a serious break in the process, and i think a good time to have this awful organization to leave this. The process of finding a residency should be far more transparent, and much more akin to the rest of how the world finds a job.

Who's with me?

Legal action for what? Did somehow some laws get broken here? And to think that you guys are likely the same people that bitch about frivolous med mal cases...

 

[Burnt_toast]

Legal action for what? Did somehow some laws get broken here? And to think that you guys are likely the same people that bitch about frivolous med mal cases...

The NRMP is constantly threatening match violations all the time for the simplest, most ridiculous things. I don't think that's ok, do you? They should have and hold the same standards we are obliged to.

 

[tyurq]

The NRMP is constantly threatening match violations all the time for the simplest, most ridiculous things. I don't think that's ok, do you? They should have and hold the same standards we are obliged to.

Opening your envelope early on match day or telling someone that a surgery prelim in Noonecares, Alabama didn't fill: match violation, possibly ruining your career by having any offer rescinded and being banned from all future matches

NRMP inadvertently allows thousands to access match results 4 days early due to incompetent programmers: business as usual

This really isn't a matter of students who looked being unethical. This is a matter of the NRMP violating their own match participation agreement in a way much more egregious than any applicant could manage.

 

[Burnt_toast]

Opening your envelope early on match day or telling someone that a surgery prelim in Noonecares, Alabama didn't fill: match violation, possibly ruining your career by having any offer rescinded and being banned from all future matches

NRMP inadvertently allows thousands to access match results 4 days early due to incompetent programmers: business as usual

This really isn't a matter of students who looked being unethical. This is a matter of the NRMP violating their own match participation agreement in a way much more egregious than any applicant could manage.

Precisely this. Why does the NRMP get to do something as you said, truly egregious, and things are ok?

 

[tyurq]

And for those talking about our "real qualms" - of course our qualm is that we didn't get to see our results. We have been wronged by the NRMP, not by the other students who did manage to see their results. When all of us pay for a long, drawn out process that is supposed to be "fair, reliable, and transparent," all of us deserve equal treatment. There is no denying that the NRMP has dropped the ball.

 

[illegallysmooth]

holy hell. it's just a couple extra days.
have a beer or six.

 

[Burnt_toast]

holy hell. it's just a couple extra days.
have a beer or six.

I think you are missing the point. It's not about the extra 4 days. It's that what happened that makes this unacceptable. Why are people spending thousands of dollars on a ridiculous process, a huge amount of anxiety, waiting for a month to find out results that can be done in probably a few minutes-hours, with the excuse that "we check them manually to ensure no errors" and yet- they make such a huge, monumental error as this? Does not make sense. This is not transparent, ethical, appropriate, and it calls in question the whole process. It demonstrates ineptitude and incompetence.

 

[illegallysmooth]

I think you are missing the point. It's not about the extra 4 days. It's that what happened that makes this unacceptable. Why are people spending thousands of dollars on a ridiculous process, a huge amount of anxiety, waiting for a month to find out results that can be done in probably a few minutes-hours, with the excuse that "we check them manually to ensure no errors" and yet- they make such a huge, monumental error as this? Does not make sense. This is not transparent, ethical, appropriate, and it calls in question the whole process. It demonstrates ineptitude and incompetence.

You know what? You should invent a better process. Go for it. You have my support, because of course there are improvements that can be made.

But a "huge, monumental error?" That would be like accidentally deleting the info for a bunch of students. Or mixing up neurosurgery with neurology. Or any number of other huge, monumental errors.

Perspective, friend.

 

[Burnt_toast]

You know what? You should invent a better process. Go for it. You have my support.

When I interviewed at Yale, the PD said, back in my day, you would go for the interview and if they liked you, they would offer you the spot right then and there. I think this whole process is absurd and it's another way that we are controlled. That's what it's about - oh and $$$$. Why not apply to a program, interview, and take or leave the offer the program makes? That's how it works in the real world. Why is htere a need to go through this match stuff? It would be alot less painful for everyone.

 

[Burnt_toast]

You know what? You should invent a better process. Go for it. You have my support, because of course there are improvements that can be made.

But a "huge, monumental error?" That would be like accidentally deleting the info for a bunch of students. Or mixing up neurosurgery with neurology. Or any number of other huge, monumental errors.

Perspective, friend.

I think you are missing the point unfortunately. Yes this is a huge error on the part of the NRMP. They have not apologized, they sort of blamed it on those who found out ironically enough. It's a lack of accountability, when we ourselves are held to such insane standards.

 

[Elisabeth Kate]

Precisely this. I think some serious legal action should be taken or the NRMP dismantled altogether. This is serious. It affects thousands of people, who have devoted a lifetime of hard work, and spent hundreds of thousands.

Let's all get a grip here. Some people saw where they matched. Big deal. I fail to see how any legal action is warranted here. The NRMP dismantled? For hiring an incompetent coder? We will all know where we matched on Friday. It's not like your lifetime devotion to hard work and hundreds of thousands of dollars is wasted. I don't know where I matched either, but come on, this is not serious. Serious is the patient straddling the line between life and death. It's the accident I saw on my way home from work today that included multiple injuries. It's the situation in Russia. It's the missing plane with 200+ people probably dead. Half the class of 2014 knowing where they're going for residency 4 days early is NOT serious.

 

[illegallysmooth]

When I interviewed at Yale, the PD said, back in my day, you would go for the interview and if they liked you, they would offer you the spot right then and there. I think this whole process is absurd and it's another way that we are controlled. That's what it's about - oh and $$$$. Why not apply to a program, interview, and take or leave the offer the program makes? That's how it works in the real world. Why is htere a need to go through this match stuff? It would be alot less painful for everyone.

You should spend a little time reading about the match algorithm and why it's done the way it's done now. It was not better back then.

 

[tyurq]

Let's all get a grip here. Some people saw where they matched. Big deal. I fail to see how any legal action is warranted here. The NRMP dismantled? For hiring an incompetent coder? We will all know where we matched on Friday. It's not like your lifetime devotion to hard work and hundreds of thousands of dollars is wasted. I don't know where I matched either, but come on, this is not serious. Serious is the patient straddling the line between life and death. It's the accident I saw on my way home from work today that included multiple injuries. It's the situation in Russia. It's the missing plane with 200+ people probably dead. Half the class of 2014 knowing where they're going for residency 4 days early is NOT serious.

It's not serious? The NRMP will investigate and potentially ban you from all future matches for lesser violations. At the same time as you folks are saying it's no big deal that people found out their match 4 days early, there are people in forums who are correctly advising that it is a serious violation to release a list of unfilled programs, but just for the next few days.

 

[thyroidectomy]

Couple of points (venting):
1. Nothing confidential was leaked. Some people, if they logged in, could see where they matched, nothing else.
2. I, unfortunately, missed the window to check. I'm upset because I'm impatient, who isn't.
3. 4 days has no material impact on any of our lives, especially with regards to housing.
4. If you want to take "action," there is a petition on one of the earlier pages, sign it.
5. If you just want to vent, make it clear at the beginning of your post.

 

[Burnt_toast]

You should spend a little time reading about the match algorithm and why it's done the way it's done now. It was not better back then.

You can disagree with me, that is fine. I don't believe the match is an appropriate process.

 

[Burnt_toast]

It's not serious? The NRMP will investigate and potentially ban you from all future matches for lesser violations.

PRECISELY. I think you get it too. It's not the 4 days, or the fact that some people found out. It's as you mention, how the NRMP will investigate/ban you for much less but they act with impunity.

 

[illegallysmooth]

http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=195998

The Origins, History, and Design of the Resident Match

direct to pdf:
http://kuznets.fas.harvard.edu/~aroth/papers/JAMA.OriginsAndHistoryNRMP.Roth.pdf

 

[Burnt_toast]

Couple of points (venting):
1. Nothing confidential was leaked. Some people, if they logged in, could see where they matched, nothing else.
2. I, unfortunately, missed the window to check. I'm upset because I'm impatient, who isn't.
3. 4 days has no material impact on any of our lives, especially with regards to housing.
4. If you want to take "action," there is a petition on one of the earlier pages, sign it.
5. If you just want to vent, make it clear at the beginning of your post.

As I have said, I am not overly concerned about the 4 days, I will live. But I am not ok with the NRMP making a huge mistake like this and pretending like it's nothing. They need to be accountable for this. I did not there was a petition - I will most dfinitely sign it, thank you for letting me know.

 

[illegallysmooth]

You can disagree with me, that is fine. I don't believe the match is an appropriate process.

Ok, you're entitled to an opinion, but I suspect it's not a very informed one.

 

[Burnt_toast]

Ok, you're entitled to an opinion, but I suspect it's not a very informed one.

So you feel that hte match, the process, the excessive wait, the control the NRMP has over people, it's all good?

 

[illegallysmooth]

As I have said, I am not overly concerned about the 4 days, I will live. But I am not ok with the NRMP making a huge mistake like this and pretending like it's nothing. They need to be accountable for this. I did not there was a petition - I will most dfinitely sign it, thank you for letting me know.

Should they tar and feather themselves? What do you propose?

 

[illegallysmooth]

So you feel that hte match, the process, the excessive wait, the control the NRMP has over people, it's all good?

Read about what finding a job was like before a there was a national process, the problems with it, how and why matching was implemented, and why they have students making offers to programs in the main match instead of the other way around. Then we can talk about it.

 

[Elisabeth Kate]

In response to a question earlier in the thread, I just received confirmation from a coordinator I trust that programs could also discover which applicants on their ROL matched to their program. I haven't done it, and won't--I'm fine with waiting. No other information could be gleaned (if someone on your ROL didn't match with you, you didn't see where he/she did match), but it's obvious that the NRMP's code was written horribly and the people in charge should be held responsible as well as the programmer(s)

PDs could see, they could also see where their applicants who didn't match *did* match

So which is it?

 

[shenanigi]

So which is it?

I'd go with the one with the name "IMPD"

 

[Deferoxamine]

And despite the epicness of this entire thread I alluded to in a previous post (#352?), I just want to point out the following:

It is the 21st century. There are very few surprises anymore. In anything. Everything is known, premeditated, preplanned, perfectionist-contrived from Day 1 these days. Nothing is ever allowed to just "happen" anymore. Few people even bother to wait to find out the gender of their new baby because it might f&%$ up the color they paint the kid's room or whatever...

Match Day (3/21/14) for all of you, matching to your #1 or anything below that, good or bad, thrilled or disappointed, was going to be one of the few authentic moments in your entire professional training. That emotion is very real. You've just robbed yourself of that and so much more if you actually followed the instructions in post #1 and looked this up on your home computer, spoiling a big surprise for yourself.

Some of you might not care. But 3 years ago, I think I would have.

 

[Burnt_toast]

Should they tar and feather themselves? What do you propose?

No, that is silly. As I said, I think it should be like a regular job. You look at an institution/process like ERAS, and that makes sense. NRMP on the other hand, does not.

For example, why is there a need to talk about violations all the time? Why do they have such a tremendous need for control?

 

[Burnt_toast]

So which is it?

That is very very serious. That in and out of itself is a serious violation of someone's privacy. I have no interest in programs knowing where I interviewed or who I ranked.

 

[illegallysmooth]

This too: http://b83c73bcf0e7ca356c80-e8560f466940e4ec38ed51af32994bc6.r6.cf1.rackcdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/The-Sveriges-Riksbank-Prize-in-Economic-Sciences-in-Memory-of-Alfred-Nobel1.pdf

I found a really good article a couple weeks ago that explained why the process was a mess before a centralized service stepped in. People were having to look for and make decisions on job offers in their third or even second years of school. It explained the math behind the algorithm in laymen's terms and gave several examples, and explained why the program was changed to benefit applicants some years later. And of course I can't find it now.

 

[IMPD]

No, that is silly. As I said, I think it should be like a regular job. You look at an institution/process like ERAS, and that makes sense. NRMP on the other hand, does not.

For example, why is there a need to talk about violations all the time? Why do they have such a tremendous need for control?

I'll leave the discussion of why NRMP exists for those that want to geek out on medical education history, but the short story is that the NRMP is the "truce" that was called between programs and the manipulation/games that residents used to endure when they had to "take it or leave it" after an interview. No doubt the system can be improved, and no doubt it is a huge improvement over what used to be.

 

[shenanigi]

That is very very serious. That in and out of itself is a serious violation of someone's privacy. I have no interest in programs knowing where I interviewed or who I ranked.

It doesn't bother me because I chose not to lie about where I was ranking someone. The only program who heard they were number one occupied the top spot on my list. You are going to carry your new found residency program with you wherever you end up. It isn't a secret.

 

[@JackShephard]

And despite the epicness of this entire thread I alluded to in a previous post (#352?), I just want to point out the following:

It is the 21st century. There are very few surprises anymore. In anything. Everything is known, premeditated, preplanned, perfectionist-contrived from Day 1 these days. Nothing is ever allowed to just "happen" anymore. Few people even bother to wait to find out the gender of their new baby because it might f&%$ up the color they paint the kid's room or whatever...

Match Day (3/21/14) for all of you, matching to your #1 or anything below that, good or bad, thrilled or disappointed, was going to be one of the few authentic moments in your entire professional training. That emotion is very real. You've just robbed yourself of that and so much more if you actually followed the instructions in post #1 and looked this up on your home computer, spoiling a big surprise for yourself.

Some of you might not care. But 3 years ago, I think I would have.

Which is why they should just release everything at once. The whole wait 4 days and then get an envelop, that doesn't make sense.

It would be like getting an email that you passed a Step exam, then 4 days later getting an envelope with your score.

 

[shenanigi]

Applying for a job:

-"So where did you do your residency?"
--"It is my private information. I do not wish to tell anyone."
-"..."

 

[@JackShephard]

That is very very serious. That in and out of itself is a serious violation of someone's privacy. I have no interest in programs knowing where I interviewed or who I ranked.

I doubt PDs are going online and doing this.

Except the tech savvy ones. Then yeah, I bet they are.

 

[Burnt_toast]

It doesn't bother me because I chose not to lie about where I was ranking someone. The only program who heard they were number one occupied the top spot on my list. You are going to carry your new found residency program with you wherever you end up. It isn't a secret.

I didn't lie either, but it is nevertheless a personal and private thing. You wouldn't tell a potential new employer that you are also interviewing at x, y or z?

 

[Burnt_toast]

Applying for a job:

-"So where did you do your residency?"
--"It is my private information. I do not wish to tell anyone."
-"..."

Not what I mean. Say I'm an engineer, I'm interviwing at Dell, oh yea by the way, I'm also interviewing at Microsoft tomorrow, Apple next week and Google. That's not something you disclose, the same way I never disclosed *which* programs I was interviewing at during the interview trail. It's none of their business.

 

[shenanigi]

I didn't lie either, but it is nevertheless a personal and private thing. You wouldn't tell a potential new employer that you are also interviewing at x, y or z?

Why not? In that sense, knowing that you are a desirable candidate increases your value in a prospective employers eyes.

 

[@JackShephard]

I didn't lie either, but it is nevertheless a personal and private thing. You wouldn't tell a potential new employer that you are also interviewing at x, y or z?

This is more like a sports contract, people will know what team you're playing on eventually.

So it's public in that sense.

 

[shenanigi]

Any time I was asked where I was going I gave them a few names of places I had been or was attending in the future. They know that they aren't the only program interviewing you. If they were chances are you have some problems with your application.

 

[Burnt_toast]

This is more like a sports contract, people will know what team you're playing on eventually.

So it's public in that sense.

No, it is not. If I CHOOSE to disclose where else I'm interviewing, that is MY choice. The NRMP has absolutely no right to allow that personal information be made available to anyone.

 

[Burnt_toast]

Any time I was asked where I was going I gave them a few names of places I had been or was attending in the future. They know that they aren't the only program interviewing you. If they were chances are you have some problems with your application.

This is clearly your first time in the rodeo. If they ask, it's not typically because "there is something wrong with your application," but because they are gauging whether you will go there and whether it's worth ranking you highly if it's unlikely you will end up there. Having sat on the ranking of candidates, I can tell you that for sure.

 

[@JackShephard]

No, it is not. If I CHOOSE to disclose where else I'm interviewing, that is MY choice. The NRMP has absolutely no right to allow that personal information be made available to anyone.

Where you match is public info.

 

[Burnt_toast]

Any time I was asked where I was going I gave them a few names of places I had been or was attending in the future. They know that they aren't the only program interviewing you. If they were chances are you have some problems with your application.

Oh and btw-that is also a violation of the match - for them to ask.