Warning: Internationals looking to come here - please read

[Transition]

I am starting this thread not to be inflammatory but to be informative so if I find that my information is wrong, I am more than happy to edit this. This is a very important topic to internationals and I haven't seen much actual, properly thought-out information given on these threads - something that I think needs to be rectified. I am writing this as a warning and as a 'you have been warned' sort of thread. I don't think it needs to be much more or less than that, but feel free to add whatever you'd like.

So, you're thinking of coming to Australia for medical school. Firstly, congrats on getting in, I know how it feels to be constantly rejected in your own country despite relatively stellar grades/scores/resumes. Unfortunately, this is where the congrats more or less finish. If you are thinking of coming here, please note that medical school degrees in Australia, if you don't have permanent residency (kind of like a green card) or citizenship, is quickly becoming a more-or-less useless degree and here is why.

Requirements upon graduation
In order to get full registration in Australia, you need to complete an internship after graduating from medical school.

Internship Allocation
- These internships are allocated in a random manner based on your citizenship (each group gets a round of randomized allocations based on preferences and then, when all the applicants in that pool have gotten a placement, the next group gets pulled up, repeat untill all pools or internship spots have been used up). The typical order is:
1. In-state Australian/NZ grads
2. Out of state Australian/NZ grads
3. In-state internationals
4. Out of state internationals
5. Overseas non-Aussie grads
- As you can see from above, the internationals are ranked near the bottom of the allocation with no ability to allow merit to play a role (exceptions exist, but rarely and it's important to assume that they don't).

Internship crisis
- Since 2006, the number of of medical school spots has more than doubled and the expansion of internships has not kept pace whatsoever. This is because medical schools do not control internships as that is regulated by states and not by the schools.
- In 2012, we saw the first time that internationals did not get internships. 182 to be exact. This is a massive number and means that, for the most part, their degrees are completely useless in Australia. There are ZERO exceptions to the internship rule - if you want to practice in Australia with your Australian BMBS/MBBS/MD, you need that internship.
- The number of internationals missing out is expected to increase in the near future. The number of medical school grads (domestic & internationals) continues to increase and, in the near future, we are looking at even domestics having a difficult time finding internships.
Take home message - if you are an international looking to become a doctor in Australia upon graduation, make sure you get PR or citizenship before applying/entering medical school. Otherwise, you will almost definitely not be able to stay here (unless something drastic changes but that is looking to be incredibly unlikely with how the politicians have been bickering in the past few weeks).

Other options
- Many of you may say that this is ok, you'll just apply back to Canada or the USA. This is a terrible idea!
- Look at the CaRMs website for how Canadians Studying Abroad (CSAs) do in the match. It is less than 40% and this was back when there were, at most, only a hundred applicants. With internationals not getting internships in Australia, this number is guaranteed to drop as the Canadian government does not plan to increase spots available to CSAs and the number of applicants will invariably increase significantly.
- This leaves the USA. The USA is quickly becoming more and more difficult for IMGs as well. Firstly, you have to write the USMLE. Australian pre-clinical training is nowhere near the level you need to write the USMLE, you should assume that you will just be doing this on your own and out of your own pocket (books, materials, time off, exam fees, flights, etc). This is a rather daunting task although not impossible. Secondly, you will have to do well enough to compete against the local grads (looking at >90th %ile). Thirdly, you will need to find a residency director willing to sponsor you for a J1 or H1b visa. These are very very difficult to get and cost the hospital time and money. Get the picture? If you want to go to the USA, go to the Caribbean, get the USMLE training you need and the guaranteed USA rotations you need and you will stand a much better chance. I cannot emphasize this enough because many internationals get into this fallacy that Caribbean schools being worse than Australian and so you'll be a worse doctor --> [size=14pt]medical school reputation means jack squat![/size] Your post-graduate training and personal work ethic/motivation will have the greatest influence on your capabilities as a doctor, not where you went for medical school. Plus, the Caribbean is WAY cheaper (tuition + living).

Take home message
Unless you have guaranteed options to return home, go somewhere else for post-grad training and/or love to take massive gambles (your career could essentially be over before it begins along with the massive debt of 4 years of med school/living in Aus), you should NOT come to Aus as an international student. Not at least until this internship crisis has sorted itself out (not looking likely at the moment).

Please feel free to message or contact me if you have questions.

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[Phloston]

I think it's a bit funny that you frame your post as though the internationals studying in Australia were "constantly rejected in their own countries," when in fact many of us specifically chose to come down under because we wanted to be here and/or had studied abroad here during our undergrads and have returned. Are you projecting much? Is something hitting a little too close to home? That's let alone the fact that you're probably too blind to realize that quite a few of us at UQ have beaten the HMS average on the MCAT.

Your post would be more effective if you simply laid the facts without over-generalizing or telling those Americans who had been unsuccessful with their US applications to instead go to the Caribbean, when in fact the latter would be more detrimental for them than anything else. Or perhaps you haven't realized that the Big3 schools in Australia are ranked higher in the world than the vast majority of US medical schools. Residencies are aware of that.

Telling people to get their PR or citizenship before coming to Australia for medical school is the equivalent of telling someone to make a million bucks without getting a job; unless someone has a spouse who's Australian, PRs are exceedingly difficult to get, so the translation of your statement is just you finding an indirect way of telling people to avoid Australia for the sake of your own insecurities/projections. I'd say in your case, if you live in Australia currently, you're a bit too myopic to see how things work around here, or if you are presently living in the States, I'd recommend you follow-up with your Caribbean or DO applications.

 

[Transition]

I think it's a bit funny that you frame your post as though the internationals studying in Australia were "constantly rejected in their own countries," when in fact many of us specifically chose to come down under because we wanted to be here and/or had studied abroad here during our undergrads and have returned. Are you projecting much? Is something hitting a little too close to home? That's let alone the fact that you're probably too blind to realize that quite a few of us at UQ have beaten the HMS average on the MCAT.

Your post would be more effective if you simply laid the facts without over-generalizing or telling those Americans who had been unsuccessful with their US applications to instead go to the Caribbean, when in fact the latter would be more detrimental for them than anything else. Or perhaps you haven't realized that the Big3 schools in Australia are ranked higher in the world than the vast majority of US medical schools. Residencies are aware of that.

Telling people to get their PR or citizenship before coming to Australia for medical school is the equivalent of telling someone to make a million bucks without getting a job; unless someone has a spouse who's Australian, PRs are exceedingly difficult to get, so the translation of your statement is just you finding an indirect way of telling people to avoid Australia for the sake of your own insecurities/projections. I'd say in your case, if you live in Australia currently, you're a bit too myopic to see how things work around here, or if you are presently living in the States, I'd recommend you follow-up with your Caribbean or DO applications.

I've been following your posts the last few weeks and it's obvious you have a tendency towards trolling without adding anything relevant. I won't qualify your offensive nature with an equally retaliatory remark. This post is merely to inform those coming here despite their reasons for doing so. Please keep it to that rather than promoting a flame war.

As an aside, I am a 3rd year medical student at Flinders. I am likely to still get an internship next year but there are no guarantees. I am simply posting this out of concern for my international student colleagues and the rather shady practices universities seem to use in recruiting them.

Please, let's not let this turn into a defamatory thread and keep it to being informative. Much of what I posted above still stands to the best of my knowledge. If any of the information I posted is incorrect, I'd be happy to change it.

Cheers

 

[Phloston]

The fact that you could possibly come on here and "troll" unsuccessful US applicants into thinking that they should apply to the Caribbean before coming to Australia demonstrates that you are completely out of touch with reality. That's let alone the fact that you've even said yourself that you're on route to getting internship in Australia, which means you haven't even taken the USMLEs.

By your post, it's evident you've had admissions issues in the past, went to Flinders (which isn't a top school in Australia), feel insecure about it and/or just aren't making the most of your experience, and then decided to project by warning people about not coming to Australia in general, when in actuality, UMel, USyd and UQ are top-15, -25 and -40 in the world, respectively. You want my contribution, there are your numbers.

 

[tk0102]

I think it's a bit funny that you frame your post as though the internationals studying in Australia were "constantly rejected in their own countries," when in fact many of us specifically chose to come down under because we wanted to be here and/or had studied abroad here during our undergrads and have returned. Are you projecting much? Is something hitting a little too close to home? That's let alone the fact that you're probably too blind to realize that quite a few of us at UQ have beaten the HMS average on the MCAT.

Your post would be more effective if you simply laid the facts without over-generalizing or telling those Americans who had been unsuccessful with their US applications to instead go to the Caribbean, when in fact the latter would be more detrimental for them than anything else. Or perhaps you haven't realized that the Big3 schools in Australia are ranked higher in the world than the vast majority of US medical schools. Residencies are aware of that.

Telling people to get their PR or citizenship before coming to Australia for medical school is the equivalent of telling someone to make a million bucks without getting a job; unless someone has a spouse who's Australian, PRs are exceedingly difficult to get, so the translation of your statement is just you finding an indirect way of telling people to avoid Australia for the sake of your own insecurities/projections. I'd say in your case, if you live in Australia currently, you're a bit too myopic to see how things work around here, or if you are presently living in the States, I'd recommend you follow-up with your Caribbean or DO applications.

1) Who care if a few UQ student's beat the HMS MCAT average? US med school applications are about much more than just the MCAT. Besides, I'm sure if those UQers were offered a spot at HMS, they'd take it in a heartbeat.

2) You might get a slight bump over Caribbean students--wholly undeservedly, IMHO--but that's about it. An IMG is an IMG. No way you'd get an advantage over any domestic American student just by being in the "Big 3."

3) It's actually not too hard to get a PR if you have work experience in certain occupations like IT, engineering, or chemistry. It's a good idea to do some research before writing the PR option off.

4) Not sure what you mean by this. This post rings true with my own, and many other international students', experiences in Australia.

 

[tk0102]

The fact that you could possibly come on here and "troll" unsuccessful US applicants into thinking that they should apply to the Caribbean before coming to Australia demonstrates that you are completely out of touch with reality. That's let alone the fact that you've even said yourself that you're on route to getting internship in Australia, which means you haven't even taken the USMLEs.

By your post, it's evident you've had admissions issues in the past, went to Flinders (which isn't a top school in Australia), feel insecure about it and/or just aren't making the most of your experience, and then decided to project by warning people about not coming to Australia in general, when in actuality, UMel, USyd and UQ are top-15, -25 and -40 in the world, respectively. You want my contribution, there are your numbers.

Don't dump on his school dude. That's low. And don't dump on his decision to go to Flinders. In retrospect, it actually looks like it was a really smart decision, given the fact that over 100 students coming out of USyd (a "top -25 school," according to you and a ranking scheme that's important to no program director ever) will be unemployed next year.

 

[Phloston]

It's actually not too hard to get a PR if you have work experience in certain occupations like IT, engineering, or chemistry.

I've tried that route a million times already. Believe me, I've wanted to get the PR (particularly since I'll be living in Australia for at least seven years and currently pay a fortune for school), and I have a chemistry degree and 2 years work experience that qualify me as a chemist here. They've changed the point system this July where they've cut the # of "careers in need" by about half, and chemist isn't on the list anymore. I then looked into "chemical engineering," not out of seriousness, but just more out of curiosity, merely to see what the requirements are for PR approval, and you need to take a qualification test that demonstrates a minimum work proficiency at the senior managerial level; that's not even taking into consideration the fact that those immigration-qualification exams are >$750 to take. The point is, it's extremely difficult to get PR/citizenship in Australia. I'll finish my PhD before I finish the last half of my medical degree, and I'm still not even sure I'll be able to get PR, even with the massive influx of research points. I hope I've been clear.

 

[Transition]

Let's not feed the troll, eh guys?

Thanks for the bump on the thread though Phloston.

I hope this message gets through to the relevant people. The offer of contacting me still stands to those looking to come here. I really wouldn't recommend it.

Cheers

Edit - just another aside for phloston's accusation on me not getting into a higher tier school. I got into every med school I applied to in Australia (USyd, UQ, Flinders, Monash, Deakin, ANU) except for UoW (suppose I didn't meet the rural req). I came to flinders after crunching numbers on the internship situation and projecting my chances of attaining said internship upon graduation. It appears it was a good move. All I care about is being able to practice med and being a good doc. The school I went to had little bearing on the latter but significant implications on the former. For those looking to see if I'm being objective, please understand that I am not bagging anyone or any school. I am just genuinely concerned for people that realistically think Australia is still a good option as an international, which it really isn't given the current situation.

As for the rankings - those are research rankings and hold little bearing on the quality of medical school grads (unless somehow the number of high end papers published per academic has a correlation to clinical knowledge and sound reasoning in students - pretty odd to think it would). Only you and the effort you put in can make you a good physician.

And yes, PR is very difficult to get. That's why I recommend people to not come here in the first place.

 

[tk0102]

Let's not feed the troll, eh guys?

Thanks for the bump on the thread though Phloston.

I hope this message gets through to the relevant people. The offer of contacting me still stands to those looking to come here. I really wouldn't recommend it.

Cheers

Edit - just another aside for phloston's accusation on me not getting into a higher tier school. I got into every med school I applied to in Australia (USyd, UQ, Flinders, Monash, Deakin, ANU) except for UoW (suppose I didn't meet the rural req). I came to flinders after crunching numbers on the internship situation and projecting my chances of attaining said internship upon graduation. It appears it was a good move. All I care about is being able to practice med and being a good doc. The school I went to had little bearing on the latter but significant implications on the former. For those looking to see if I'm being objective, please understand that I am not bagging anyone or any school. I am just genuinely concerned for people that realistically think Australia is still a good option as an international, which it really isn't given the current situation.

As for the rankings - those are research rankings and hold little bearing on the quality of medical school grads (unless somehow the number of high end papers published per academic has a correlation to clinical knowledge and sound reasoning in students - pretty odd to think it would). Only you and the effort you put in can make you a good physician.

And yes, PR is very difficult to get. That's why I recommend people to not come here in the first place.

Good stuff here. I hope future students take it seriously. Just one question re: PR. Is it really that hard to get a 189 after working rural for a year or two? I agree you'd be SOL If you tried to get PR after you start med school. But if you plan a bit, I don't see the problem--other than having to apply to med with the domestic stream! Thanks for the post.

 

[xm105]

i'm a 4th year at UNSW (6yr program) and i agree that the future's looking bleak. the nsw health minister recently said that in light of the shortage, internationals should pay for the privilege of being trained during the intern year. well that just about says it all doesn't it? i reckon the asian internationals are more stuffed than the north americans, koreans especially as they don't even use english professionally back home.

 

[Transition]

This is a general statistic reflective of all IMGs from all regions of the world and is not representative of placements in regards to Australian IMGs. If you look at IMG residency placements through CaRMS based on region you will see that graduates immigrating from African nations and other poorly developed areas had a horrible match rate that brought the overall IMG match percentage down to below 40%. PGY-1 applicants from Australian medical schools in particular had a match rate of over 70% in 2011 which is a much more relevant statistic to the topic of this thread.

Cool, good to know. I wasn't able to find this stat. Maybe I didn't look hard enough? Do you have a source so that I can edit the original post with it? I included the IMG stat because that is our best indicator and, in a gamble such as this, it's probably best to go with the worst-case scenario. Irrespective, I'll update the original post with that disclaimer once I get the source.

Cheers

 

[MHDaren]

I posted early about this intern shortage stuff as well, for the students planning coming to Australia to study med.

It may be a shame. I am exact among the ones who could not get a offer in their home country and hoped I could study and practice med in this country.

Every time there is a post like this, there will be some people trying to argue that the problem will be solved. NO, THE INTERN CRISIS WILL NOT BE SOLVED.

I guess 182 is the previous number of student who could not get intern positions. After some went back to their home countries, or maybe other reasons I don't know, now there are over 80 graduates left, without any opportunity. (People who are about to say, "why they don't go into insurance etc", please keep that to yourself)

Even blind people can see that Australia sells its EDUCATION to make good money. There is nothing wrong about this. But it is very irresponsible and cruel not to tell these words to international medical student before they come here, THERE IS NOTHING FOR YOU AFTER YOU GRADUATE FOUR YEARS AFTERWARDS. Don't bet.

Someone once told me that, as long as you study hard, your excellence may earn you a position in the internship, although not guaranteed. Now I am studying freaking hard. I am not final year yet, but I am crying for a change in this system and I am somewhat relieved to see that even my local fellow students are fighting for us international students. Seeing others helping you does provide some relief, so that I am not in despair.

The politicians care nothing about your future but their money. Don't believe anyone who's trying to sell education to you. SEE IT YOURSELF.

When I was applying for med schools in Australia, I was told that there would be an internship problem, however everyone was working on it, and till you would graduate, everything might be already solved, although there was no guarantee. I hate to be a gambler but I was one. Now I am trying to work my way out, after I spend 1/4 of million dollars my parents savings. I feel guilty to my parents indeed.

Some politicians even mentioned "internship should be a privilege and foreign graduates should pay for their training positions ", which made me really speechless. Well, if it does happen, I may go the the TAFE to learn how to fix light bulbs and get PR, then apply as a local graduate.

Feel free to PM me if there is any question.

 

[Transition]

I posted early about this intern shortage stuff as well, for the students planning coming to Australia to study med.

It may be a shame. I am exact among the ones who could not get a offer in their home country and hoped I could study and practice med in this country.

Every time there is a post like this, there will be some people trying to argue that the problem will be solved. NO, THE INTERN CRISIS WILL NOT BE SOLVED.

I guess 182 is the previous number of student who could not get intern positions. After some went back to their home countries, or maybe other reasons I don't know, now there are over 80 graduates left, without any opportunity. (People who are about to say, "why they don't go into insurance etc", please keep that to yourself)

Even blind people can see that Australia sells its EDUCATION to make good money. There is nothing wrong about this. But it is very irresponsible and cruel not to tell these words to international medical student before they come here, THERE IS NOTHING FOR YOU AFTER YOU GRADUATE FOUR YEARS AFTERWARDS. Don't bet.

Someone once told me that, as long as you study hard, your excellence may earn you a position in the internship, although not guaranteed. Now I am studying freaking hard. I am not final year yet, but I am crying for a change in this system and I am somewhat relieved to see that even my local fellow students are fighting for us international students. Seeing others helping you does provide some relief, so that I am not in despair.

The politicians care nothing about your future but their money. Don't believe anyone who's trying to sell education to you. SEE IT YOURSELF.

When I was applying for med schools in Australia, I was told that there would be an internship problem, however everyone was working on it, and till you would graduate, everything might be already solved, although there was no guarantee. I hate to be a gambler but I was one. Now I am trying to work my way out, after I spend 1/4 of million dollars my parents savings. I feel guilty to my parents indeed.

Some politicians even mentioned "internship should be a privilege and foreign graduates should pay for their training positions ", which made me really speechless. Well, if it does happen, I may go the the TAFE to learn how to fix light bulbs and get PR, then apply as a local graduate.

Feel free to PM me if there is any question.

I am so so sorry to hear this. I can't even imagine what this must feel like nor can I offer words of comfort because I can't comfort myself into thinking it'll be alright if I don't gain an internship next year. Life is very stressful and difficult at the moment for international medical students in Australia.

To those not convinced yet, please understand that these are words and words are only able to scratch the surface of what is happening here. You should really seriously think twice before coming. There are almost no good reasons left to do med in aus. This industry needs to die soon.

 

[Phloston]

I don't think anyone should ever go into any foreign country (whether it be Australia, Spain, England, Botswana, etc.) expecting that landing an internship is a certainty. This is nothing unique to Australia.

If you cannot find an internship in Australia and don't have a job following graduation, that is your responsibility, not a politician's nor anyone else's. You should always have a plan B and never expect that a fixed outcome will occur. If you're from the USA and are applying to an Australian medical school, by all means, you can tentatively plan on practicing here in the future, but also make sure that you sit the USMLEs, just so you can keep your options open: that is taking responsibility. Then, when you graduate, you'll have your career open to you.

 

[Transition]

I am a premed who will be taking this advice to heart. I have done a lot of research on the Australian internship situation because it has been a lifelong dream for me to move to Australia. I urge everyone to take the time to consider what is being said here. Of course "it's just a forum and who are these possible internet trolls/gunners to tell me what to do with my life. Maybe they are neckbeards with no social skills and that's why they couldn't get a jerb." Well, okay. Fair argument there. But look stuff up for yourself. The situation is truly dire.

Hahaha, I should resent the neckbeard comment

I'm not sure it's a fair argument to assume that, after all, this is coming from current medical students, some of us fairly senior in our degrees. I am sure that if redshifteffect were still posting actively, he would agree (he's a senior GP registrar in NSW) along with multitudes of doctors, students, academics, etc that I have met along the way in the last 3 years I have been here. Quite simply, the numbers don't add up.

Warnings for everyone! Wish it was candy, but I suppose that's life...

 

[Transition]

Good stuff here. I hope future students take it seriously. Just one question re: PR. Is it really that hard to get a 189 after working rural for a year or two? I agree you'd be SOL If you tried to get PR after you start med school. But if you plan a bit, I don't see the problem--other than having to apply to med with the domestic stream! Thanks for the post.

Sorry, I only just saw this. I'm not entirely sure as each circumstance is different, but it's pretty easy to look up on your own as it is a points-based system. Just head over to the immi website to see if you qualify.

What really matters, though, is the timing. I had an international student friend in 4th year who was hoping to get PR before his internship applications went out this year but they hadn't even looked at his app until just a week ago. And he submitted it nearly a year ago. On top of that, the government seems prone to change rules at random which may require re-application. It's a very risky proposition to be depending on PR during med school. That's why I recommended getting it before if you are seriously thinking about going that route (but then, why not just do a 2nd undergrad at home or rewrite the MCAT or go to the Caribbean given the above points regarding the little benefits of coming to Aus in the first place?).

Cheers

 

[cosycatus]

I've tried that route a million times already. Believe me, I've wanted to get the PR (particularly since I'll be living in Australia for at least seven years and currently pay a fortune for school), and I have a chemistry degree and 2 years work experience that qualify me as a chemist here. They've changed the point system this July where they've cut the # of "careers in need" by about half, and chemist isn't on the list anymore. I then looked into "chemical engineering," not out of seriousness, but just more out of curiosity, merely to see what the requirements are for PR approval, and you need to take a qualification test that demonstrates a minimum work proficiency at the senior managerial level; that's not even taking into consideration the fact that those immigration-qualification exams are >$750 to take. The point is, it's extremely difficult to get PR/citizenship in Australia. I'll finish my PhD before I finish the last half of my medical degree, and I'm still not even sure I'll be able to get PR, even with the massive influx of research points. I hope I've been clear.

Oh well, as a general rule, i dun really reply to post by bigoted people ( see other thread on "research as a MD". This Phiston guy has been proven wrong, but he instead launched into personal attacks on me, calling me a liar without any proof which is story for another day. Kinda scary these kind of pple are going to be doctors...but hey, he is looking at plastics, so i guess we all know what he is after....) ...but incidently, i applied and obtained my PR as a chemical engineer.
So firstly, there isn't a "qualification test for work proficiency at senior management level"
secondly, there isn't any immigration qualification exams ( all i did was an English test , given i am not a native speaker and it cost $190).
Thirdly, it's not difficult if you have the correct attributes. I got my PR 10 mths after application
Fourthly, 2 years of work experience do not get you any points. Prior to 2012 July only 4 years of which 3 years of work experience in a related position give you some points.

And my take on the internship situation is that things will improve. And the fight is not coming from international students, but from domestic students. The 2013 or 2014 interns might have it bad but things should start to pick up with more public awareness and political pressure. If you choose your medical school wisely, ie Flinders, U Western Australia than the eastern states, you do stand a higher chance than going to a so call "good medical school" ( which incidentally, is moot, since the ranking of universities is based not on the quality of their medical education or research, but more in the sciences and engineering research. And a large scale study in the states have demonstrated that what matters isn't the medical school, but the residency. Besides, in australia, what counts is the letters AFTER your MBBS/BMBS/MD. And If you go back to states or canada, who cares what school you graduate from, u are a IMG. period. )

 

[Transition]

Oh well, as a general rule, i dun really reply to post by bigoted people ( see other thread on "research as a MD". This Phiston guy has been proven wrong, but he instead launched into personal attacks on me, calling me a liar without any proof which is story for another day. Kinda scary these kind of pple are going to be doctors...but hey, he is looking at plastics, so i guess we all know what he is after....) ...but incidently, i applied and obtained my PR as a chemical engineer.
So firstly, there isn't a "qualification test for work proficiency at senior management level"
secondly, there isn't any immigration qualification exams ( all i did was an English test , given i am not a native speaker and it cost $190).
Thirdly, it's not difficult if you have the correct attributes. I got my PR 10 mths after application
Fourthly, 2 years of work experience do not get you any points. Prior to 2012 July only 4 years of which 3 years of work experience in a related position give you some points.

And my take on the internship situation is that things will improve. And the fight is not coming from international students, but from domestic students. The 2013 or 2014 interns might have it bad but things should start to pick up with more public awareness and political pressure. If you choose your medical school wisely, ie Flinders, U Western Australia than the eastern states, you do stand a higher chance than going to a so call "good medical school" ( which incidentally, is moot, since the ranking of universities is based not on the quality of their medical education or research, but more in the sciences and engineering research. And a large scale study in the states have demonstrated that what matters isn't the medical school, but the residency. Besides, in australia, what counts is the letters AFTER your MBBS/BMBS/MD. And If you go back to states or canada, who cares what school you graduate from, u are a IMG. period. )

Yeah, well, that's why I have been saying not to feed the troll. He is adding nothing but personal attacks in his posts. I won't qualify these with a response other than to defend myself.

As for the last little part, I agree that the situation may improve but I really wouldn't bet $300K on it. Without that internship, you could be truly boned. Boned hard.

 

[Phloston]

I think you guys just need to find alternative means to vent your insecurities.

 

[gethscout]

I think you guys just need to find alternative means to vent your insecurities.

Can't believe your arrogant responses, brah...

This guy Phloston is BORROWING $730K to be an IMG in BOTH AU and the US and is trying to flex on everyone here like he's more clever than Chomsky.

Altruism: warning others about lack of GME options in Australia for foreigners

Arrogance: borrowing $730,000 of the US government's money to sit in a room reading First Aid and publish junk science that no one will read and coming on here and downright disrespecting folks.

I bet you're planning on screwing the US taxpayer for loan forgiveness.You'll be lucky to even get an FM spot four years from now.

Everyone needs to ignore this dude's foolish nonsense on here.

 

[dyp]

i love reading any thread that pholston posts in. Keep supporting us aussie med students who actually are happy about moving to aus to study brothaaaa (probably just the two of us)

 

[dyp]

just the same, i know plenty of people who have gone through the aussie med system from canada successfully. i think most people just need to realize your going to be as good of a physician as you want to be, whether you go to harvard med, the caribbean or to aus youll never be guaranteed anything.

 

[Transition]

some very important numbers here

http://www.medicaldeans.org.au/statistics/annualtables

 

[Transition]

some very important numbers here

http://www.medicaldeans.org.au/statistics/annualtables

Goin through these numbers - things are looking piss poor.

 

[MHDaren]

I don't think anyone should ever go into any foreign country (whether it be Australia, Spain, England, Botswana, etc.) expecting that landing an internship is a certainty. This is nothing unique to Australia.

If you cannot find an internship in Australia and don't have a job following graduation, that is your responsibility, not a politician's nor anyone else's. You should always have a plan B and never expect that a fixed outcome will occur. If you're from the USA and are applying to an Australian medical school, by all means, you can tentatively plan on practicing here in the future, but also make sure that you sit the USMLEs, just so you can keep your options open: that is taking responsibility. Then, when you graduate, you'll have your career open to you.

Seriously I think this is true. There is no point blaming anyone. I guess the purpose of these posts here are definitely not trying to blame the government. All the efforts made here are trying to help the future students to make decisions so that they will not one day regret and blame themselves.

 

[tk0102]

Seriously I think this is true. There is no point blaming anyone. I guess the purpose of these posts here are definitely not trying to blame the government. All the efforts made here are trying to help the future students to make decisions so that they will not one day regret and blame themselves.

You make a valid point.

But, to be fair to the hundred or so students who are now on the verge of having their medical careers terminated, there is a point in blaming the government and the medical schools; the government and the medical schools are the ones who screwed up the most. The government made a hash of the entire training pipeline, and the medical schools misled (unintentionally, I'm sure) their international students about internships. Sure, the students should have had a Plan B. But they also had a good faith belief that the powers to be were doing right by them and their exorbitant tuition.

Look, it's about accountability. And I don't see why the internationals are the only ones who are going to be held accountable.

 

[Transition]

You make a valid point.

But, to be fair to the hundred or so students who are now on the verge of having their medical careers terminated, there is a point in blaming the government and the medical schools; the government and the medical schools are the ones who screwed up the most. The government made a hash of the entire training pipeline, and the medical schools misled (unintentionally, I'm sure) their international students about internships. Sure, the students should have had a Plan B. But they also had a good faith belief that the powers to be were doing right by them and their exorbitant tuition.

Look, it's about accountability. And I don't see why the internationals are the only ones who are going to be held accountable.

 

[cosycatus]

You make a valid point.

But, to be fair to the hundred or so students who are now on the verge of having their medical careers terminated, there is a point in blaming the government and the medical schools; the government and the medical schools are the ones who screwed up the most. The government made a hash of the entire training pipeline, and the medical schools misled (unintentionally, I'm sure) their international students about internships. Sure, the students should have had a Plan B. But they also had a good faith belief that the powers to be were doing right by them and their exorbitant tuition.

Look, it's about accountability. And I don't see why the internationals are the only ones who are going to be held accountable.

Hei..i've heard enrollment this year is really bad. Flinders actually put up late admission opportunities on their webby (but that might have to do with their "new" MD program with it's price jump)

Current news is that another 100 position has been put up by the state and federal government, so about 80 students are left stranded...BUT somehow , i think they are gonna be alrite soon in terms of internship

Sigh, the real worry is not internship but what happens AFTER that. How are they gonna put 3500 junior doctors thru some sort of vocational training every year? Even before the student crunch of this year, getting into a decent specialty was getting tough, with like 30 applicants to 1 position for psysch last year ( as related by a senior psych registrar who mentioned that during his time, it was like 12 applicants for 8 spots statewise...lol)

Goodness...everyone screams about internship as though after internship, they all become some godlike specialist in various disciplines...but guys, it's not internship that's the problem. infact, if u plan for USMLE or MCEEQE, u are gonna land a training position more easily than after internship here in australia There are 18000 training spots in the US, although as a IMG/FMG, u are likely to land internal med, peds, but at least, u get a postgraduate certificate good enough to get a job anywhere in the world.

When you finish internship in australia, all u get is just registration here. Zlich. Nothing more. You don't have billing privileges , u can't admit patients. You can't assume absolute responsibility for patients until you are vocationally trained here in auzzie, and for auzzie, the shortest is being a GP ( family doctor) at 3 years after internship and 6 years for physicians. If u dun get into any training program and that is where i REALLY see the bottleneck as being, then, effectively, that's when your medical career is over, because in australia context, you can't do much. And by then, when u want to apply to the states or Canada, things get a lot tougher ( u sure u want to study the USMLE 1 then? Step 2 should be easier, but how the hell are you going to get US clinical experience? And some residency are going to ask why are u apply for US residency 2 years after graduating ?)


That situation is already happening in queensland where a lot of PGY2 can't find jobs ( jobs as general medical officers, not even trainees yet).

If there is a reason why i do not want to come to australia to study, it's not because of internship, because, you will get an internship somehow, but because i might be trapped between a rock and a hard place AFTER internship.

that's the real issue guys. Not internships.

 

[shan564]

I feel like I should chime in here, but I'm not exactly sure how. So I'll put myself out there in case somebody has questions.

By the way, I should qualify this, since I haven't posted on the Aussie section of SDN for the last couple of years... I'm currently a 4th-year at USyd. The situation is suboptimal (as you'll see from my previous posts over the last couple of years), but I wouldn't say that it's looking "bleak." There's a lot of progress and it seems like most of the students this year actually WILL end up getting internships despite all of the political bickering that led to this point. We just heard yesterday that an agreement has been reached for ~100 additional internship spots to be created for our year. Our faculty is REALLY working hard for us. And that's coming from somebody who was openly pessimistic over the last couple of years.

That said, I'm planning to go back to the US. And people say lots of things about Australia vs. "offshore" medical schools for applying for residencies in the US, but my general experience with the residency application process is that most programs seem to consider Australian training to be comparable to American training. One of my American rec letter writers actually flaked out (never wrote the letter), so I ended up with two letters from Aussie supervisors and one from an American... but that hasn't stopped me from getting plenty of residency interviews.

And there are other options beyond the US and Canada - namely, Singapore and New Zealand. Not the best options for most people, but they're there.


Anyway, my overall point is - the situation was getting out of hand for a while, but it seems like the outlook is actually fairly decent for the students who want to stay in Australia.

 

[pitman]

We just heard yesterday that an agreement has been reached for ~100 additional internship spots to be created for our year.

It's up to 116 now. There's something odd about the negotiations, but we'll see soon enough.

 

[tk0102]

... One of my American rec letter writers actually flaked out (never wrote the letter), so I ended up with two letters from Aussie supervisors and one from an American... but that hasn't stopped me from getting plenty of residency interviews.

Congrats on the interviews! Did you end up applying for psych?

Anyway, my overall point is - the situation was getting out of hand for a while, but it seems like the outlook is actually fairly decent for the students who want to stay in Australia.

The situation may be only "sub-optimal" for interns now, but it's going to be even worse when they want to become registrars later. The whole training pipeline is a mess.

True props to the faculty for working so hard to place the internationals ( ... though they did have years and years of warning that this was going to happen).

I think the consensus of this thread is that one should come to Australia only if one has a realistic plan to get back home. Australia gives you a boost in reputation, but that boost comes with the cost of receiving a deficient basic science education (at least in terms of the USMLE). It's really expensive too. Caveat emptor.

 

[pitman]

True props to the faculty for working so hard to place all the internationals (... though they did have years and years of warning that this was going to happen).

Don't you mean the federal bailout?

 

[tk0102]

Don't you mean the federal bailout?

Eh. It's complicated. I take your point. But the faculty did work hard to lobby for and secure that federal bailout. They've also been active in scouting out internship slots in private hospitals and overseas. I'm trying to give credit where credit is due.

 

[Transition]

Eh. It's complicated. I take your point. But the faculty did work hard to lobby for and secure that federal bailout. They've also been active in scouting out internship slots in private hospitals and overseas. I'm trying to give credit where credit is due.

These are the same people that caused this problem (and continue to) in the first place. The only decent thing they could do, after waiting so long and ignoring all the warning signs, was to lobby their asses off. After all, if internationals stopped coming, the cash cow would too. It was self preservation that drove this mostly. I thank the government, which is solving a problem created by this 'faculty', even tho they ask for a bailout with one hand and continue to exacerbate the problem with the other (has med school enrollment decreased? Are they being more open, offering informed consent, to internationals? No? Then they deserve no credit).

 

[pitman]

These are the same people that caused this problem (and continue to) in the first place. The only decent thing they could do, after waiting so long and ignoring all the warning signs, was to lobby their asses off. After all, if internationals stopped coming, the cash cow would too. It was self preservation that drove this mostly. I thank the government, which is solving a problem created by this 'faculty', even tho they ask for a bailout with one hand and continue to exacerbate the problem with the other (has med school enrollment decreased? Are they being more open, offering informed consent, to internationals? No? Then they deserve no credit).

Hm. Could of course blame the feds for off-again on-again restrictions on full-fee domestic spots while under-funding HECS (or whatever they call it now), resulting in near bankruptcy for a number of schools that directly led to the graduate programs that created the int'l student market in the first place, or the feds for creating the massive doctor shortage when it ignored warnings going back to the '80s (by not upping the HECS spots or payments). But yeah, the schools are part to blame, the states are part to blame, the feds are part to blame, the state vs. fed split in all things medicine is to blame, and students who go in with their head up their ass are part to blame.

Plenty of blame to go around, no one comes up smelling like roses. So here 'we' are, with attempts having been made on various levels and continuing to be made to help save the international student market and some semblance of cooperation between the fed and the state governments. I'll give the schools credit for doing their lobbying part, but ultimately the federal govt is coming in this year, I think in part because it's a pretty cheap way to claim being 'the savior', in part so they don't get as much blame (they are also largely responsible for the IMG market, which is really going to be on the wrong end of this very soon), in part as a wedge ("And how will YOU do your part, NSW/Qld/Vic?") and in part because the electorate knows that the states are in financial deep crap from previous governments and expect some reasonable attempt at a fix from a govt which claims to be the 'education party' but has been seriously lacking in its education policies. And with their money comes leverage, to get all parties to do more, or at least to come to the negotiating table, maybe at a new round of COAG. Nothing about this is linear, nothing is static.

 

[pitman]

They've also been active in scouting out internship slots in private hospitals and overseas. I'm trying to give credit where credit is due.

Are any of your classmates going to NZ or Singapore? I don't know why that isn't being pushed more -- a deal could be made federally if the effort were there, as those countries have fewer stumbling blocks for returning. Or maybe that's premature and would appear to be "giving up" domestically before doing the easy things like throwing $50million at the problem to force the states to scramble and accredit 116 new spots in the next two months (or will the feds get into that racket?)

 

[neulite30]

Are any of your classmates going to NZ or Singapore? I don't know why that isn't being pushed more -- a deal could be made federally if the effort were there, as those countries have fewer stumbling blocks for returning. Or maybe that's premature and would appear to be "giving up" domestically before doing the easy things like throwing $50million at the problem to force the states to scramble and accredit 116 new spots in the next two months (or will the feds get into that racket?)

Where is there info saying an internship in Singapore is recognized here? I called the medical board a while back and they said it wasn't. NZ is though.

 

[tk0102]

Where is there info saying an internship in Singapore is recognized here? I called the medical board a while back and they said it wasn't. NZ is though.

NZ definitely is. I believe you have to pass the AMC exam if you come back from a Singapore or Hong Kong internship though. Call the AMC. It's the best place to get correct information.

http://www.medicalboard.gov.au/Regi...al-Graduates/Competent-Authority-Pathway.aspx

This is also pretty helpful:

http://medicine.unimelb.edu.au/pdf_files/misc/InternDir2012.pdf

 

[shan564]

Congrats on the interviews! Did you end up applying for psych?

Thanks... yeah, I'm lucky enough to be interested in a specialty that's not particularly competitive, which means that I've been able to get interviews at 4 of my top 6 choices (and most people match at one of their top 3, so I'm optimistic).

The situation may be only "sub-optimal" for interns now, but it's going to be even worse when they want to become registrars later. The whole training pipeline is a mess.

Agreed. The problem is that the training system is just too complicated. It worked fine when there were more positions than trainees, but now it needs a serious overhaul. They should try to emulate the American system.

True props to the faculty for working so hard to place the internationals ( ... though they did have years and years of warning that this was going to happen).

In their defense, they've been trying hard for years. But politicians don't respond well to the idea of a problem that won't manifest for several years (by which point they might not even be in office anymore).

I think the consensus of this thread is that one should come to Australia only if one has a realistic plan to get back home. Australia gives you a boost in reputation, but that boost comes with the cost of receiving a deficient basic science education (at least in terms of the USMLE). It's really expensive too. Caveat emptor.

I agree with all of that except for the idea of a "deficient" basic science education (at least at USyd). The problem with the basic science education here is that the standards are quite low... it's easy to get through your second-year exams without knowing much. But the teaching itself was excellent. It may not have been 100% comprehensive for some subjects, but plenty of American schools also expect you to learn a lot of that stuff on your own. If you want to be spoonfed USMLE material, the Caribbean is the best place for you. Most of my classmates have had average or above average performance on Step 1 and Step 2 (although I do know of one person with a below average score).

 

[pitman]

Where is there info saying an internship in Singapore is recognized here? I called the medical board a while back and they said it wasn't. NZ is though.

Ha. Sorry for not being clear -- I didn't mean that their internship is recognized here (yet; we discussed that notion in the 2011 thread below). I mean it would be easier to make any negotiations, because Singapore recognizes Australian degrees and has removed a number of barriers for grads here to practice there. Australia could more easily (than most other countries) put Singapore on the Competent Authority Pathway (CAP) to give trainees the easier route to return (no MCQ exam, no clinical exam), or it could make a new category that's even easier, for those who went to school here but did internship in one of a select key counties like Singapore. And from what I have seen reported, Singapore would be happy to get Australian grads. But note that the Singaporean training workload is closer to that of the US than Australia -- long hours and little pay.

There was a discussion on some of this last year in the annual "Australian grads without jobs!" thread:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=853659&page=4
..the AMC has since moved its page on the CAP:
http://www.amc.org.au/index.php/ass/apo/cap
...Singapore wants Australian grads:
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/hig...mand-by-poachers/story-e6frgcjx-1226185131512

IMO one of the pluses of Australia having a shortage of spots (surplus of grads) is that it could become easier -- if it decides to go down this road -- to negotiate with other countries, particularly where there is a shortage of docs, to open up to Australian grads -- other countries will be assured that any bilateral agreement will give them a net increase of low-pay junior docs rather than a drain of their own.

 

[shan564]

IMO one of the pluses of Australia having a shortage of spots (surplus of grads) is that it could become easier -- if it decides to go down this road -- to negotiate with other countries, particularly where there is a shortage of docs, to open up to Australian grads -- other countries will be assured that any bilateral agreement will give them a net increase of low-pay junior docs rather than a drain of their own.

There has been talk of such agreements, but it hasn't developed into anything substantial yet.

 

[pitman]

There has been talk of such agreements, but it hasn't developed into anything substantial yet.

Maybe it'll become more politically palatable over the next couple years, as the **** hits the fan in bigger and bigger chunks.

I'm glad to hear you've interviews, shan. What's the status of the rest of the 4th year int'ls at USyd? Currently ~30 at UQ waiting for some sort of fix, but I don't know how that gets broken down in terms of those who've been planning to go home vs. as just a backup vs. "planning" on staying. Then there's the start of the RMO shortage this year and the change in name from 'med student tsunami' to 'junior doctor crisis'. Though the originally reported "500 without jobs" here was always bogus, since QHealth had no way of knowing how many were doubled up applications or backups (it's now ~200 after a follow-up survey). QHealth seems to think most will get jobs though AND are claiming they'll still need junior doc IMGs next year. Weird, but it'll be interesting to see.

 

[shan564]

I'm glad to hear you've interviews, shan. What's the status of the rest of the 4th year int'ls at USyd? Currently ~30 at UQ waiting for some sort of fix, but I don't know how that gets broken down in terms of those who've been planning to go home vs. as just a backup vs. "planning" on staying. Then there's the start of the RMO shortage this year and the change in name from 'med student tsunami' to 'junior doctor crisis'. Though the originally reported "500 without jobs" here was always bogus, since QHealth had no way of knowing how many were doubled up applications or backups (it's now ~200 after a follow-up survey). QHealth seems to think most will get jobs though AND are claiming they'll still need junior doc IMGs next year. Weird, but it'll be interesting to see.

I think we have more than 30 at USyd. I'm actually a bit surprised at your number... I always thought that the problem was bigger in Qld, and you guys also have a bigger class.

But people are still getting offers in Sydney. We don't have many people who were thinking about staying as a "backup"... if anything, many people are going back home as a backup.

Still, I agree that it's a big mess. And until they have a national allocation system, it'll stay a mess. The national allocation system won't solve the shortage, but at least it'll be less messy.

 

[tk0102]

x

 

[pitman]

I think we have more than 30 at USyd. I'm actually a bit surprised at your number... I always thought that the problem was bigger in Qld, and you guys also have a bigger class.

From my time (2004-2007), it was understood by the UQMS that NSW would get hit first and harder than Qld, a close second. This was consistent with the first horror stories coming out of NSW last year (the premature claim that 50 were without jobs). I think statewide (Qld) it's currently around 50, just ~30 at UQ as of last week. This year only had a handful of int'ls who ended up at Ochsner (and thus out of the Qld ballot), but the Ochsner numbers have been increasing for each of the subsequent classes -- I'm not sure how much this 'helps' the bottom line statewide, but thought I'd put it out there as a potential confounder.

 

[pitman]

Still, I agree that it's a big mess. And until they have a national allocation system, it'll stay a mess. The national allocation system won't solve the shortage, but at least it'll be less messy.

I'm not convinced a national system will be for the better, unless by system one means merely a fairly complex centralized computer system that simply improves the efficiency of applying to multiple hospitals across states, communicating placements, and identifying and reducing duplicates once a candidate accepts a spot.

To the extent that there's national allocation beyond that, it will become increasingly difficult (messy) to take advantage of the current marketplace -- the individual states -- to come up with processes or creative initiatives that cater to their own interests and needs. The Rural Generalist Pathway is one example which would not exist with a true national system -- it was devised here in Qld to recruit students into rural medicine, where recruits are put into a separate internship ballot (one of the carrots for the program), and the program is continuously being tweaked to work better here. Other states (including NSW) have been watching the program and are planning on implementing something similar, and they will need to do their own tweaking. As another example, WA and SA currently promise all their grads internship spots, so a national system would only break this promise and thus harm their own (and their int'l students', and thus their financial) interests. Meanwhile, most things that become nationalized here seem to go to s*it, or cost twice as much (e.g., national registration, which was a smart thing to do for ease of mobility, but inexplicably costs far more than state registration used to -- well, not inexplicably, as the collected fees go to a more bloated, national bureaucracy which has less political pressure to keep costs down).

But then the problem is that once something gets consolidated, over time the consolidators invariably end up taking more. I certainly don't trust that any such system could allow states to maintain control over their own initiatives, or that national exams wouldn't be instituted (who to set the standard? how much more on ATSI/cultural training??), or that there wouldn't be a single Priority system that discriminates against int'l students more than is done in half the states now (AMC candidates were supposed to be above int'ls, by federal law, but thankfully states starting with SA, then Qld, changed the order and got away with it before [I think at COAG] the requirement was finally dropped).

If the states were willing to forego their responsibility for allocation, then they should also be willing to take less-draconian measures to fix the same problems that a national system would be intended to address, but without the negatives -- better synchronization of ballot dates (they were supposed to be synched going back at least to 2007!), sharing data and updating their ballots, notification of under-subscribed hospitals in real-time, etc. Hell, give me $5million, half of what our state's Electronic Discharge Summary system cost to develop, and I'll write the damn software.

 

[Transition]

up

 

[pitman]

Update - there are now thought to be ~20 (all int'l) grads in Queensland who were in the Ballot but who did not get an internship offer for this year. No one knows how many of the 20 were planning to go back home (chiefly Canada) if/when they got accepted there, or to Singapore and NZ, an option anecdotally increasing in popularity.

Similarly, after the initially counted 209 RMOs who did not get an RMO job from the RMO and PHO/Reg campaigns (chiefly due to two stuffups which have little to do with the tsunami), the number was ~100 at the end of December. QHealth reported at that time that any RMO wanting a job would get one in January. I haven't heard of any more recent updates.

So, to repeat my mantra...every year the problem is exaggerated, but every year it does get worse.

 

[DoccoDoc]

The fact that you could possibly come on here and "troll" unsuccessful US applicants into thinking that they should apply to the Caribbean before coming to Australia demonstrates that you are completely out of touch with reality. That's let alone the fact that you've even said yourself that you're on route to getting internship in Australia, which means you haven't even taken the USMLEs.

By your post, it's evident you've had admissions issues in the past, went to Flinders (which isn't a top school in Australia), feel insecure about it and/or just aren't making the most of your experience, and then decided to project by warning people about not coming to Australia in general, when in actuality, UMel, USyd and UQ are top-15, -25 and -40 in the world, respectively. You want my contribution, there are your numbers.

The school's ranking is meaningless, what is meaningful is whether the State your are studying has internship positions. It is becoming an uphill battle to remain in Australia as an international medical student.

Also the reality for North America is becoming bleak, its much harder to match as IMG, also if you have read the news lately, more medical schools are opening up in North America.

 

[rayjay]

Hey Pitman just wanted to clarify your last statement: the problem is exaggarerated but it does get worse. What do you mean, I'm a bit confused.

Are you saying that the tsunami is incorrectly blown out of proportion and that each year all the interns get jobs and that it is exaggerated more and more?

I'd still say there is a problem if even 20 people missed out on internship. Sorry if I've misinterpreted your comment.