Warning: Internationals looking to come here - please read

[pitman]

I was saying that there is indeed a problem that has been getting worse, but that each year for nearly a decade the alarmism has been exaggerated (premature, and in the end I believe anti-climactic). For predictable reasons.

There is not some unending swelling of students heading towards a fixed number of training spots. We are now very close to the peak of graduate numbers. This past year saw the last of the large (~500) annual increases in graduates, with that number only realized again over the next four years combined. Further, this slowdown is accompanied by increasing numbers of int'ls leaving Australia. Some of this has to do with every int'l (there are more SE Asians here than N. Americans, mind you) having ground into them that they shouldn't be optimistic about staying here (and so they prepare earlier and more earnestly to leave), and some to do with programs like Ochsner (which will be placing an additional 100 grads annually within a few years). In other words, in terms of accommodating increases in graduates, we are past the worst of it, and the peak should occur within the next 2-3 years.

If sufficient funding continues as it did this year (and if the feds want a national allocation system, they will be pressured to continue funding), then all domestic students will get internship along with most international students who really want one. Keep in mind that with the extra spots created, there ended up being spots that were not taken (with at least three in Qld).

I would disagree with 20 people missing out being a problem (assuming they were all wanting to stay but some for reason didn't put their hand up for where there were spots remaining!). No int'l now in med school can reasonably argue that they expected an internship, while as far as oversupply of grads goes, that would be a pretty small one. It means that at worst, you need to be at the 10th percentile. In so far as there aren't quite enough spots, that would also be a *real* incentive to motivate int'ls to prepare for the possibility of having to go home (or elsewhere -- NZ and Singapore both badly want Australian grads, and they have only recently begun to tap the well).

This is not to say that trends can't change for the worse, like funding (the only persisting issue for gaining internship here); or those external to Australia, though I don't have a handle on data-driven predictions (future grad numbers vs. residency, along with recent trends in residency numbers) for the US or Canadia; or on how many grads NZ and Singapore are willing to take (certainly more than 20). Further, after internship, big problems remain. However, if the annual exaggerations over internship are anything to go by, the impending RMO problems here should not be seen as insurmountable.

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[Medstart108]

If you look at resident lists at Columbia/Cornell ER Resident Program. 10 years of residents 10 residents per class. There were a total of 5 IMGs. 2 from the Caribbean (1 from AUC, 1 from St George), 1 from Australia (Flinders), 1 from the UK (UCL) and 1 from India (Grant).

If you say its not possible, thats not true. Columbia/Cornell ER is one of the top in the country and they accepted IMGs. To be perfectly honest, these numbers do not look in any way different from any other US medical school. There were more IMGs than there were from US medical schools in midwestern US.

 

[rayjay]

I'm not sure if its the wording of your post, but what you're saying is that that ER program has a 1% success rate for IMGs into ER residency. That's really not something to be thrilled about.

Agreed Pitman. It's a wait and see game for me. At the moment, being in the middle of the program there is nothing I can do but hope for the best (and study for my overseas exams )

 

[pitman]

Also the reality for North America is becoming bleak, its much harder to match as IMG, also if you have read the news lately, more medical schools are opening up in North America.

I'm not challenging this (I wouldn't know), but are there stats showing a trend of lower IMG matching rates? Plus or minus a breakdown by country/nationality would be ideal.

I know only *anecdotally* that a smaller percentage of N. American students here have placed home this year, but if true this might also be explained by differences in this subset of self-selected IMGs as student numbers increase here..

 

[Medstart108]

I'm not sure if its the wording of your post, but what you're saying is that that ER program has a 1% success rate for IMGs into ER residency. That's really not something to be thrilled about.

Agreed Pitman. It's a wait and see game for me. At the moment, being in the middle of the program there is nothing I can do but hope for the best (and study for my overseas exams )

I was saying that 5 out of 100 residents have been IMGs in ER at Cornell/Columbia. That is quite a large number. Why is anyone here walking around expecting IMGs especially those who have done college in North America to match into competitive programs.

I'm sorry, but people who go overseas WERE NOT THE SMARTEST PEOPLE IN THE CLASS. The fact that there are even 2 IMGs from the Caribbean who get to do the same residency as people who went to Columbia and Cornell and other US medical schools should be already a huge feat. You are hitting way above your weight when you go to the Caribbean and get to do residencies with people who had 35 MCATs and 3.9 GPAs.

IMGs don't match because they were not smart enough to get into medical school, they have a reputation of not being smart enough to get into medical school and there are prejudices due to that.

 

[rayjay]

IMGs don't match because they were not smart enough to get into medical school, they have a reputation of not being smart enough to get into medical school and there are prejudices due to that.

I'm not sure if you're trying to be inflammatory or you're actually just ignorant, but you should probably stop before you step on the toes of a lot of people.

I'm not going to cite examples (personal friends) of Canadians who have 35+ MCAT and 3.7+ GPA who couldn't get into America or Canada (although off the top of my head I could easily). However, every year hundreds of students who meet the academic standard you pulled out of your head, end up going abroad.

I certainly wasn't the top of my undergrad graduating class but I'm certainly not the bottom of my medical class, not by a long shot. I'm academically well ahead some of those so called "smart enough to get into med school" domestic students in the program (that's based on objective rankings, not hearsay in case that was going to be your rebuttal). The fact that you may not have been the smartest in your class doesn't mean that others are exactly in the same boat. There are a host of other reasons that come into play in North American applications that go well beyond MCAT/GPA.

Do yourself a favour and think about what you post before you do it next time.

(For the record, you're ranting about Caribbean grads matching into IMG spots in a thread aimed at Australian graduates...nice one.)

 

[shan564]

I'm not going to cite examples (personal friends) of Canadians who have 35+ MCAT and 3.7+ GPA who couldn't get into America or Canada (although off the top of my head I could easily). However, every year hundreds of students who meet the academic standard you pulled out of your head, end up going abroad.

He's talking about averages, not individuals. Of course there are plenty of exceptions, but on average, the top American students go to med school in the US. So I agree that it's a big feat that so many of them matched at a place like Columbia. Most (not all) US citizen IMGs are lower-caliber students, so it's natural to believe that they're less likely to match at Columbia.

I'm not sure if its the wording of your post, but what you're saying is that that ER program has a 1% success rate for IMGs into ER residency. That's really not something to be thrilled about.

I'm not sure where you came up with the 1% number, but I think the fact that 5% of Columbia ER residents are IMGs is definitely something that you can find promising. As he said, it means that there were some Caribbean grads who were able to compete with those people who had 37+ MCATs and 3.9 GPAs. The fact that it was a small number is no surprise. It seems to me like you're trying to spin his words to turn a positive post into a negative one.

 

[rayjay]

I'm not saying that students abroad are in the upper range of academic smarts. I'm saying that its unfair for anyone to tar all students that go abroad as worse students because the faired poorly (or less than average) in their undergrads and therefore will not perform well in med school or post-grad. My issue is with the wording if his/her post being inflammatory and general. Perhaps I misinterpreted the comment on the match rate at Columbia, if that's the case, apologies. However I stand by my initial comment about not everyone leaving North America was not smart enough to stay there. I certainly didn't have the smarts in undergrad, I openly admit it: I wouldn't have gotten into a North American school with my grades.
Surely you, now being done med, will have come across plenty of students who may have excelled in their science years and were not the greatest clinically. That's all I'm saying.

 

[shan564]

I'm not saying that students abroad are in the upper range of academic smarts. I'm saying that its unfair for anyone to tar all students that go abroad as worse students because the faired poorly (or less than average) in their undergrads and therefore will not perform well in med school or post-grad. My issue is with the wording if his/her post being inflammatory and general.

I highlighted the word "all" in your post because you're the only one that used that word in this discussion. The other person never said that "all" students that go abroad are worse students, and when I read his post, I interpreted it to say that "in general, students who go abroad aren't the best students." You added the "all" bit and changed the meaning.

Perhaps I misinterpreted the comment on the match rate at Columbia, if that's the case, apologies.

I think that's the case.

However I stand by my initial comment about not everyone leaving North America was not smart enough to stay there.

I think we can all agree on that point. I'd like to think that I'm smarter than the average American med student, but I was also lazier. As a result, I had a high MCAT score and a low GPA, and I didn't earn the privilege to get into med school in the US. Then I worked harder in med school and I did earn the privilege to get into my top-choice residency program in the US.

And in light of that fact, I think it's perfectly reasonable for somebody to assume that I'm probably a lower-quality student than the average American student. The onus was on me to prove them wrong.

So, back to the original point... for those reasons, I think it's a very positive sign that Columbia has 5 IMGs in their EM program. This is because Columbia is one of the 3-4 most competitive programs in the country, and it usually fills with people who have been overachievers for their entire lives. They have their pick of candidates from throughout the country, but they decided to give a fair shot to those few people who weren't overachievers in undergrad and, as a result, went to the Caribbean for med school. In order to accept those two people, they probably rejected people who had 3.9 GPAs and 37 MCAT scores and went to WashU or Hopkins or Penn or Yale or Stanford.

So his initial point - that it's possible to get into a top-quality residency program despite being an IMG and having a background of being not good enough to get into med school in the US - is perfectly valid.

Surely you, now being done med, will have come across plenty of students who may have excelled in their science years and were not the greatest clinically. That's all I'm saying.

Yeah, but I didn't come across many students who struggled with the basic science years and were excellent clinically. They're two separate skill sets, but it's hard to have the latter if you can't do the former... basic science success requires intelligence and hard work, while clinical success requires both of those things plus a few extra skills.

 

[rayjay]

I'm sorry, but people who go overseas WERE NOT THE SMARTEST PEOPLE IN THE CLASS.

IMGs don't match because they were not smart enough to get into medical school, they have a reputation of not being smart enough to get into medical school and there are prejudices due to that.

Alright man, interpret it however you will, but I doubt I am wrong in assuming that there would be many people who would interpret it the same way I am. Especially when the words are capitalized in the sentence, almost like we're being scolded. "IMGs dont match because SOME OF THEM were not the...." and "THE AVERAGE STUDENT WHO goes overseas..." etc would go a long way.

I'm not personally taking offence because I was in that generalisation, my GPA wasn't up there. But I fully recognize that not everyone was in that scenario and they came to Australia (or whatever country) as a last resort to becoming a doctor, despite having the entire package on paper.

Thats all I'm saying on the issue, this discussion has gone well away from the original point.

 

[Phloston]

Can't believe this thread is still going.

Also the reality for North America is becoming bleak, its much harder to match as IMG, also if you have read the news lately, more medical schools are opening up in North America.

Not really an issue. Once again, the USMLE levels the playing field.

 

[Medstart108]

When i was saying that IMGs were not the brightest people in the class, i mean on average. Logically it makes sense. I'd say the vast majority of people have North American schools as their 1st choice and overseas as 2nd. So NA schools did get first pick and they usually take the brightest people. I do know people who had 36 MCAT 4.0 GPA who didn't get into medical school, but it wasn't because of their grades, they got interviews but didn't do well on their interviews. However, from the many people who i see apply overseas, most of them don't have these stats. Someone who had a 36 MCAT 4.0 GPA would do better preparing better for interviews rather than going overseas.

I've done more research on residency programs: Look at Dartmouth's General Surgery program.

Out of the 26 people in their program, they have 3 IMGs, but only 1 DO. 1 from Iceland, 1 from Mexico and 1 from SGU. These are very promising stats.

NYU's internal medicine program explicitly states they don't accept DOs but are willing to consider IMGs.

Boston University's IM program listed its medical schools represented (By Current Students):

5 Indian medical schools (mostly the top tier like AIIMS, Grant)
2 Irish medical schools (RCSI, UCD)
3 German medical schools (Heidelberg, Munich and Bonn)
2 Argentinian medical schools
1 Icelandic medical school
1 Israeli medical school
1 Nigerian medical school

Didn't see a single DO school on that list

The list goes on.

On the other hand California seems to be pretty closed

Going through Stanford, UCSF, UCLA, Davis and Cedars-Sinai IM lists couldn't find a single DO or IMG. They will tell you they accept applications though.

Top tier programs do accept IMGs, usually a small number, but all qualified
Mid tier university programs also accept IMGs to a greater extent and from more countries.
Yes, its probably likely that the IMGs from Germany, India, Iceland were natives that were top of their class and knew they wanted to move to the US early on.
However, it shows you theres no widespread discrimination. Yes, they will prefer US applicants, but not to an extent that they won't give IMGs a shot.

AKA, it is in your hands. If you fail, don't blame the system, blame yourself.

 

[prefontaine]

Link?

NYU's internal medicine program explicitly states they don't accept DOs but are willing to consider IMGs.

 

[shan564]

Link?

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=nyu+internal+medicine+residency+osteopathic+international&l=1

 

[pitman]

Can't believe this thread is still going.

That made me go back and refresh myself with the start of it...

Internship crisis
- Since 2006, the number of of medical school spots has more than doubled and the expansion of internships has not kept pace whatsoever. This is because medical schools do not control internships as that is regulated by states and not by the schools.
- In 2012, we saw the first time that internationals did not get internships. 182 to be exact.
...
- The number of internationals missing out is expected to increase in the near future. The number of medical school grads (domestic & internationals) continues to increase and, in the near future, we are looking at even domestics having a difficult time finding internships.

I am starting this thread not to be inflammatory but to be informative so if I find that my information is wrong, I am more than happy to edit this.

So wrong on so many levels. Please do edit.

 

[Medstart108]

Link?

http://medicine.med.nyu.edu/education/im-residency-homepage/faqs#dd

Q.10 under Candidacy/Applicant Questions

 

[pre med 2014]

So what is the consensus? Is it risky to take out 220K in debt for an Australian MD?

 

[shan564]

So what is the consensus? Is it risky to take out 220K in debt for an Australian MD?

It's risky to take out 220k in debt for anything. The question is just how big the risk is.

If you work hard and do well, odds are that you'll find a medical job somewhere. Things worked out well for me, but if I were starting in 2013, I probably would have done something other than going overseas - i.e. post-bacc, DO, etc. That's based on the fact that it's getting harder and harder to come back to the US, not the fact that it's getting harder to get internships in Aus... I think that if you really want to get placed in Aus, there will be a solution to the intern crisis within a few years. If nothing else, you can go to Singapore.

 

[pitman]

If nothing else, you can go to Singapore.

Or probably New Zealand.

But yeah, it's a gamble of sorts. I don't think you can come over assuming any particular plan to stay or go back will work, but that something will work out in the end if you want it to. The unadventurous and risk-averse need not apply.

 

[pre med 2014]

It's risky to take out 220k in debt for anything. The question is just how big the risk is.

If you work hard and do well, odds are that you'll find a medical job somewhere. Things worked out well for me, but if I were starting in 2013, I probably would have done something other than going overseas - i.e. post-bacc, DO, etc. That's based on the fact that it's getting harder and harder to come back to the US, not the fact that it's getting harder to get internships in Aus... I think that if you really want to get placed in Aus, there will be a solution to the intern crisis within a few years. If nothing else, you can go to Singapore.

I am applying to DO as well. The thing is if I do get into an Australian school the acceptances come in around the time of interview season so it's like I would have to commit to this if I got in without knowing any other options.

 

[Transition]

That made me go back and refresh myself with the start of it...



So wrong on so many levels. Please do edit.

What exactly would you like me to edit? The numbers speak for themselves.

Anything else is speculation. It's a huge gamble to come here as an international student and continues to be so.

As an aside, I have had a look into New Zealand. It is not as easy as applying tere and getting in. They also rank internationals behind everyone else and they do not have nearly the number of spots needed to make up for the deficit in Australia. You can certainly go to Singapore but having that internship recognized in Australia or any other 1st world nation is not an easy task. I have only looked into Australia and it seems you will need to apply as an all-out img if you do go to Singapore including writin the amc exams and applying for jobs that way. I do not know about North America.


Anyways lemme know what you want edited and if it is credible, not an opinion, I'll gladly edit it.

 

[Transition]

Or probably New Zealand.

But yeah, it's a gamble of sorts. I don't think you can come over assuming any particular plan to stay or go back will work, but that something will work out in the end if you want it to. The unadventurous and risk-averse need not apply.

Jesus man, you're actually advising people that taking a risk on 220K of debt is an ok thing to do even though you readily admit that staying here or going back to NA may not work out. Where do you suggest people go? The UK isn't an option anymore with their oversubscription problems and Asia, if you can get by language barriers, will provide little opportunity to pay off those insane debts (Singapore has relatively low salaries as compared to what you could expect in the Western world).

I created this thread to inform people based on what is the likely scenario barring things change (and again, just HOPING that they'll change for the better is pure insanity given the possible losses). It's absolutely the wrong thing to do to tell people it's ok to risk their financial livelihoods on a 'probably' or a 'maybe'.

I remain by my original post - if you want to come to Australia, know that you are taking a massive gamble. Hoping for the best is equivalent to praying away cancer. Good luck with that. If you do not have a feasible plan with a high probability of success (and one that will let you practice where you want whilst giving you the ability to pay off your debts), then you're gonna have a bad time after graduation.


Edit: Here are your numbers: MTRP Report

Figure 4, page 4 shows that, over the next 3 years, graduates will increase by another ~500 spots to nearly 4000. If we are having this many problems finding spots for interns with current numbers (~3400), then logically things are going to get much worse before they get better.

 

[OzTREKK]

Sorry guys, I posted some comments here about this topic but one of my contacts requested that I remove them...ill edit them, get permission, and re-post

 

[pre med 2014]

But what if one wants to practice in the US after graduation? Is the risk still as great?

 

[shan564]

But what if one wants to practice in the US after graduation? Is the risk still as great?

The bottom line is that the situation is unclear. There are fewer and fewer spots in the US every year. If you're confident that you'll do well on the USMLE and make good impressions on clinical rotations, then you'll probably get a spot in the US as long as you're not bent on going into a competitive specialty. But it's a bigger risk today than it was 4-5 years ago.

 

[pre med 2014]

I have a fondness for adventure so I try to convince myself the risk in minimal but deep down inside I know it is 'probably' better to stay in the states.

That being said I'm not hell bent on getting into a top specialty and if you look at a program like UQ-Ochsner which has similar median stats as most DO and some MD schools (3.4 and 29) the risk can't be that much.

 

[edgerock24]

I have a fondness for adventure so I try to convince myself the risk in minimal but deep down inside I know it is 'probably' better to stay in the states.

That being said I'm not hell bent on getting into a top specialty and if you look at a program like UQ-Ochsner which has similar median stats as most DO and some MD schools (3.4 and 29) the risk can't be that much.

I agree 100%. That program looks quite attractive. Definitely will apply there along with a batch of DO schools.

 

[pre med 2014]

I agree 100%. That program looks quite attractive. Definitely will apply there along with a batch of DO schools.

Good luck to you. I'm doing the same.

 

[shan564]

For those of you considering UQ-Ocshner - I learned something on the interview trail. Since there are now so many "offshore" schools around the world, residency interviewers tend to differentiate between them by asking you "oh, so did you do your clinical rotations in Australia or in the US?" That question is meant to tell the difference between a regular med school and an "offshore" school that's meant for Americans who want to return to America.

Of course, that doesn't mean that this makes any actual difference. I'm sure you'd still probably be in a good position to come back to the US afterwards if you don't need to go into a competitive specialty. When I was going to Australia, people were telling me the same thing about it being a big risk... but things certainly worked out well for me.

 

[shan564]

double post

 

[pre med 2014]

For those of you considering UQ-Ocshner - I learned something on the interview trail. Since there are now so many "offshore" schools around the world, residency interviewers tend to differentiate between them by asking you "oh, so did you do your clinical rotations in Australia or in the US?" That question is meant to tell the difference between a regular med school and an "offshore" school that's meant for Americans who want to return to America.

Of course, that doesn't mean that this makes any actual difference. I'm sure you'd still probably be in a good position to come back to the US afterwards if you don't need to go into a competitive specialty. When I was going to Australia, people were telling me the same thing about it being a big risk... but things certainly worked out well for me.

Lol that sounds like a scary question. It's a whole different dynamic with Australia, doing rotations in the US from a Caribbean is NOT the same as doing rotations in the US from Australia.

I don't see how UQ - Ochsner would then fall into the inferior 'offshore' category just because you do rotations in New Orleans. I mean you could just do all the 4 years at UQ but its basically the equivalent... if anything Ochsner is more prestigious than where ever it is you do UQ rotations

 

[Transition]

Lol that sounds like a scary question. It's a whole different dynamic with Australia, doing rotations in the US from a Caribbean is NOT the same as doing rotations in the US from Australia.

I don't see how UQ - Ochsner would then fall into the inferior 'offshore' category just because you do rotations in New Orleans. I mean you could just do all the 4 years at UQ but its basically the equivalent... if anything Ochsner is more prestigious than where ever it is you do UQ rotations

And how did you come to this conclusion?

 

[goprisko]

It is apparent that much disarray exists in OZ medical training.

But.....

Things in the US aren't rosy either. My wife applied to 86 programs last years match, got only one interview, which landed her in a categorical Internal Medicine Residency, AT A BANKRUPT HOSPITAL.

To make matters worse, a number of local hospitals with residency programs are bankrupt and closing their doors.

I'm told it was medicaid cuts that killed them.

We're not sure she'll finish her training before they close the doors.

INDY

 

[redshifteffect]

It is apparent that much disarray exists in OZ medical training.

But.....

Things in the US aren't rosy either. My wife applied to 86 programs last years match, got only one interview, which landed her in a categorical Internal Medicine Residency, AT A BANKRUPT HOSPITAL.

To make matters worse, a number of local hospitals with residency programs are bankrupt and closing their doors.

I'm told it was medicaid cuts that killed them.

We're not sure she'll finish her training before they close the doors.

INDY

Hopefully she gets a chance to finish before that happens!

 

[Medstart108]

Lol that sounds like a scary question. It's a whole different dynamic with Australia, doing rotations in the US from a Caribbean is NOT the same as doing rotations in the US from Australia.

I don't see how UQ - Ochsner would then fall into the inferior 'offshore' category just because you do rotations in New Orleans. I mean you could just do all the 4 years at UQ but its basically the equivalent... if anything Ochsner is more prestigious than where ever it is you do UQ rotations

I think UQ-Oschner is probably better than UQ normal because there are some programs that do like to see US rotations. Overall its definitely seen as a good thing if you have US rotations.

Its not like if you are an offshore student you can avoid being labelled that way anyways. If you did your bachelor's in the US, are a US citizen and then went overseas for medical school even if it was a true IMG school with international rotations, you can bet your bottom dollar the interviewer knows you probably were unsuccessful at home.

 

[pitman]

What exactly would you like me to edit? The numbers speak for themselves.

Anything else is speculation. It's a huge gamble to come here as an international student and continues to be so.

As an aside, I have had a look into New Zealand. It is not as easy as applying tere and getting in. They also rank internationals behind everyone else and they do not have nearly the number of spots needed to make up for the deficit in Australia. You can certainly go to Singapore but having that internship recognized in Australia or any other 1st world nation is not an easy task. I have only looked into Australia and it seems you will need to apply as an all-out img if you do go to Singapore including writin the amc exams and applying for jobs that way. I do not know about North America.

Anyways lemme know what you want edited and if it is credible, not an opinion, I'll gladly edit it.

This, for starts:

- In 2012, we saw the first time that internationals did not get internships. 182 to be exact.
...
- The number of internationals missing out is expected to increase in the near future. The number of medical school grads (domestic & internationals) continues to increase and, in the near future, we are looking at even domestics having a difficult time finding internships.

Every year people on this and other chat boards pre-ejaculate some confident claim that x int's didn't get an internship spot. "182 to be exact" is the perfect example. Not even accounting for those who intended to return home and got a spot back home, that number is necessarily less than 80. There were also many unfilled spots from among those created expressly for the int'ls last year, at least five in Qld alone.

It is also politically very unlikely that domestics will have trouble getting a spot in the foreseeable future. The claim otherwise is also a gross generalization as some states (WA and SA) guarantee all students they train will get a spot, and there is no reason to doubt them, since a national allocation system cannot be forced upon the states.

It is also the case that last year was the last of the large increases in grad numbers (~500), with the numbers flattening out and not increasing by that much for the next three years combined, which will then be about at the expected peak of grad numbers.

Empirically, the more than 100 spots created last year for the int'ls that were *initially* without a spot is proof-of-concept that as of today, virtually all domestic students can be accounted for over the next few years and thus nearly to the peak -- an improvement over past forward estimates (which annually and universally had been under-estimates of the total number of available spots).

 

[pitman]

Jesus man, you're actually advising people that taking a risk on 220K of debt is an ok thing to do even though you readily admit that staying here or going back to NA may not work out.

I did qualify my statement. Are you advising that it is NOT ok to take such a risk? That people like Shan and red should not have risked it?

I came to Australia in 2004. A similar attitude prevailed on SDN back then, but even more adamantly -- that coming to Australia was too great a risk to take, with some claiming that you'd end up as a taxi driver. Everyone here has heard some variant of such stupid claims.

EVERY YEAR the reality doesn't match the pessimism, while the trend is that EVERY YEAR the prospects are indeed getting tougher. It will never be impossible to stay or return, however.

My advice is that if you are an adventurous risk-taker, or a romantic generally, then certainly you need to know the facts -- not the scaremongering or premature false numbers that come out annually, but the real data, the options, and the trends -- but then make an informed choice over whether it's a risk YOU are willing to take. As many before you have. And to the extent that you ARE such an adventurous risk-taker, then your philosophy will already be that things tend to work out in the end -- just not necessarily in the pre-set sort of way that pragmatists rely on for direction in their lives.

It is not our place, and it is presumptuous as all hell, for us to tell people how they should weigh priorities and risks in life. Those who think it is our place are the same people who assume that someone who goes overseas for medical school must not have been able to get into a North American school -- they just don't get it.

As to Singapore and NZ, they are actively recruiting int'l students in Australia. NZ is an option for some -- most of all for those who really want it. Several from UQ have been going each year for the past few. Singapore is a bigger option, and yes, getting back to Australia from Singapore currently means going through the extra hoop of the AMC process (without exemption from the exam, unlike those from the UK, for example). Getting to the US from any of these places means taking the USMLE as everyone else and starting residency from scratch (Ochsner is a further possibility for some of those who are a bit more risk-averse). And so on. These are all options that obviously need to be explored/understood by applicants when weighing up whether it is for them to come. But weighing up by them.

 

[pre med 2014]

Is it possible to be licensed in both the US and Australia without doing two residencies, one on each continent?

I have read a recent article about a us doctor who moved to Australia because government here is getting to big to supervise but I can't remember it mentioning if he had to redo a residency or not, he was already like 50+ years old when he made the leap.

 

[neulite30]

Is it possible to be licensed in both the US and Australia without doing two residencies, one on each continent?

US to Australia is easier to accomplish than Australia to US.

Below are the exam exemptions for coming over as an American pathologist. Each specialty college will, presumably, have their own guidelines.

http://www.rcpa.edu.au//static/File...raining/General Infomation/ExamExemptions.pdf

American specialty colleges typically recognise (recognize) only American and Canadian training.

Thus, as I had to do last year, you will need to weigh up the reasons for staying in Australia, as you will need to start all over again if you plan on returning to the states.

 

[shan564]

Thus, as I had to do last year, you will need to weigh up the reasons for staying in Australia, as you will need to start all over again if you plan on returning to the states.

Yeah, that's also a big part of the reason why I decided to come back to the US right after med school.

 

[erikah19]

Hi guys! I just really wanted to mention again how terrible the situation for international students are in Australia. Please please please don't come. Every one of 1st/2nd years I've spoken to have dreaded upon their situation and they just wish they never came. I'm waiting to get my internship, too, and I know how distressing this situation is! Imagine spending millions of dollars (in fact I've spent $60,000AUD in the first four years, then my tuition fees bumped up and with living expense etc included I've spent $90,000AUD per annum at least in the last two years) and you tell your parents.. I DON'T KNOW IF I CAN BE A DOCTOR! It's terrible. Not to mention how your local friends are so happy about their placements. You feel like stabbing yourself every time they are talking about their internship. In fact I am surprised that no student has yet been admitted into the mental health unit because of this problem. I really won't be surprised if I see news headlines of suicidal attempts due to this problem! Haha it really is that bad. DON'T COME HERE!!

If anyone was to choose where to go - ANU sounds great as this year they promised all htier graduates an internship position at their teaching hospital (TCH) IF they did not apply for any position interstate. Not great for locals, but great news for internationals. I don't know about their application process though. Melbourne is also a great place to be in, as for two years in a row they ranked their 'international local students' from Victoria in a category right after their local domestic graduates. This meant that most internationals who graduate from Victoria would be able to stay =) NSW is the worst one at the moment.

 

[neulite30]

Hi guys! I just really wanted to mention again how terrible the situation for international students are in Australia. Please please please don't come. Every one of 1st/2nd years I've spoken to have dreaded upon their situation and they just wish they never came. I'm waiting to get my internship, too, and I know how distressing this situation is! Imagine spending millions of dollars (in fact I've spent $60,000AUD in the first four years, then my tuition fees bumped up and with living expense etc included I've spent $90,000AUD per annum at least in the last two years) and you tell your parents.. I DON'T KNOW IF I CAN BE A DOCTOR! It's terrible. Not to mention how your local friends are so happy about their placements. You feel like stabbing yourself every time they are talking about their internship. In fact I am surprised that no student has yet been admitted into the mental health unit because of this problem. I really won't be surprised if I see news headlines of suicidal attempts due to this problem! Haha it really is that bad. DON'T COME HERE!!

If anyone was to choose where to go - ANU sounds great as this year they promised all htier graduates an internship position at their teaching hospital (TCH) IF they did not apply for any position interstate. Not great for locals, but great news for internationals. I don't know about their application process though. Melbourne is also a great place to be in, as for two years in a row they ranked their 'international local students' from Victoria in a category right after their local domestic graduates. This meant that most internationals who graduate from Victoria would be able to stay =) NSW is the worst one at the moment.

I'm sorry to hear you're distressed.

Did you or your colleagues not sit the USMLE and/or MCCEE?

 

[pre med 2014]

I heard there is no internship crisis in Australia.

 

[whyeh]

Jesus man, you're actually advising people that taking a risk on 220K of debt is an ok thing to do even though you readily admit that staying here or going back to NA may not work out. Where do you suggest people go? The UK isn't an option anymore with their oversubscription problems and Asia, if you can get by language barriers, will provide little opportunity to pay off those insane debts (Singapore has relatively low salaries as compared to what you could expect in the Western world).

I created this thread to inform people based on what is the likely scenario barring things change (and again, just HOPING that they'll change for the better is pure insanity given the possible losses). It's absolutely the wrong thing to do to tell people it's ok to risk their financial livelihoods on a 'probably' or a 'maybe'.

I remain by my original post - if you want to come to Australia, know that you are taking a massive gamble. Hoping for the best is equivalent to praying away cancer. Good luck with that. If you do not have a feasible plan with a high probability of success (and one that will let you practice where you want whilst giving you the ability to pay off your debts), then you're gonna have a bad time after graduation.


Edit: Here are your numbers: MTRP Report

Figure 4, page 4 shows that, over the next 3 years, graduates will increase by another ~500 spots to nearly 4000. If we are having this many problems finding spots for interns with current numbers (~3400), then logically things are going to get much worse before they get better.

Really?
http://sg.finance.yahoo.com/news/best-worst-paying-jobs-doctors-
185856835.html

Singaporean doctors make more than Canadians in some categories?

 

[514901]

I'd only say that if you're an international and dead set on being in the city (which is stupid-you don't go to Australia to live in the city) for internship that you have no shot, but otherwise, there will definitely be internship positions. I know QLD Health just opened up quite a few intern slots for internationals who want to go rural--it's listed on the UQMS site.

 

[rayjay]

For what its worth, all SA international students have been offered internship position for 2014 which is excellent news.

That's not to say the situation won't change in the coming years with more schools looking into opening medical schools and class numbers rising, but its good news today

 

[shan564]

SA has always been the best at getting internships for their students.

 

[pitman]

I think WA is still guaranteeing internship(?)

 

[Phloston]

Hi guys! I just really wanted to mention again how terrible the situation for international students are in Australia. Please please please don't come. Every one of 1st/2nd years I've spoken to have dreaded upon their situation and they just wish they never came. I'm waiting to get my internship, too, and I know how distressing this situation is! Imagine spending millions of dollars (in fact I've spent $60,000AUD in the first four years, then my tuition fees bumped up and with living expense etc included I've spent $90,000AUD per annum at least in the last two years) and you tell your parents.. I DON'T KNOW IF I CAN BE A DOCTOR! It's terrible. Not to mention how your local friends are so happy about their placements. You feel like stabbing yourself every time they are talking about their internship. In fact I am surprised that no student has yet been admitted into the mental health unit because of this problem. I really won't be surprised if I see news headlines of suicidal attempts due to this problem! Haha it really is that bad. DON'T COME HERE!!

If anyone was to choose where to go - ANU sounds great as this year they promised all htier graduates an internship position at their teaching hospital (TCH) IF they did not apply for any position interstate. Not great for locals, but great news for internationals. I don't know about their application process though. Melbourne is also a great place to be in, as for two years in a row they ranked their 'international local students' from Victoria in a category right after their local domestic graduates. This meant that most internationals who graduate from Victoria would be able to stay =) NSW is the worst one at the moment.

It's statements like these that decrease the validity of such censures. Obviously not every student would feel this way. In psychiatry, this all or none phenomenon is referred to as splitting.

 

[pitman]

Sounds flaky to me -- 'DON'T COME HERE (...but ANU is good, and Melbourne is great...)'.

And by god, who needs to spend $40k per year in living expenses?? Precious, anyone?

More likely, a troll. Erikah19, what school do you attend? What's it like there? Haven't you been studying for the USMLE?