Warning: Internationals looking to come here - please read

[erikah19]

Just wanted to clarify that I'm not a troll. I'm based in NSW - and I don't recommend anyone to come to NSW. All students in SA have received internship. So did ANU students. Victoria as well. But the number of graduates are expected to raise by further 300-400 next year, and ha as if can go on for longer than a few years.

Besides, the sadness of this situation is something you'd only understand when you are stuck in one of our shoes - and I don't expect people to understand either. Last year I thought "surely it can't be that bad. they're just being pessimistic." Boy do I take back my words. I just wanted to at least speak up on this forum because our first/second years complain that no one even told them to worry about teh internship situation; that everyone who they've asked/ forums have hinted that there's always been s solution at the end of the tunnel. in fact some of them are thinking about leaving Australia and completing their degree elsewhere / start over from postgrad year 4. Yeep.

And of course me and quite a few of my classmates have sat the USMLE - duh! For people who have no countries to go back to - it's all about risk minimization. My other option would be to wait for all internship rounds to settle, and if no avail, I will have to go to the US and do research there and then apply for residency.

Also interesting point to note.Coalition did guarantee to continuously fund for new internship spots (guaranteed +100 internships based in regional areas) for the next four years. Maybe this will make things better! To be honest, I spent a term in a rural region and I would rather go try out my luck in the US. It's nice but also a little sad. Great for people who don't intend on pursuing further degrees ie. PhD or do something competitive. it can be very rewarding to be a GP in these isolated areas. I mean all the complex, interesting cases get flown to metropolitan hospitals!!!!!!!

PS. The students who are not that affected by this situation are the ones who know that they have places to go back to. Some mentors at clinical schools and at uni show considerable amount of concerns for international students because they have been informed of the psychological distress some students have been going through. Apparently a few breakdowns have been reported.

I just hope this may influence just .. some people who are thinking about coming to Australia. And their parents. That is alllllllllll if you think this is a joke, then please don't mind my posts.

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[514901]

Just wanted to clarify that I'm not a troll. I'm based in NSW - and I don't recommend anyone to come to NSW. All students in SA have received internship. So did ANU students. Victoria as well. But the number of graduates are expected to raise by further 300-400 next year, and ha as if can go on for longer than a few years.

Besides, the sadness of this situation is something you'd only understand when you are stuck in one of our shoes - and I don't expect people to understand either. Last year I thought "surely it can't be that bad. they're just being pessimistic." Boy do I take back my words. I just wanted to at least speak up on this forum because our first/second years complain that no one even told them to worry about teh internship situation; that everyone who they've asked/ forums have hinted that there's always been s solution at the end of the tunnel. in fact some of them are thinking about leaving Australia and completing their degree elsewhere / start over from postgrad year 4. Yeep.

And of course me and quite a few of my classmates have sat the USMLE - duh! For people who have no countries to go back to - it's all about risk minimization. My other option would be to wait for all internship rounds to settle, and if no avail, I will have to go to the US and do research there and then apply for residency.

Also interesting point to note.Coalition did guarantee to continuously fund for new internship spots (guaranteed +100 internships based in regional areas) for the next four years. Maybe this will make things better! To be honest, I spent a term in a rural region and I would rather go try out my luck in the US. It's nice but also a little sad. Great for people who don't intend on pursuing further degrees ie. PhD or do something competitive. it can be very rewarding to be a GP in these isolated areas. I mean all the complex, interesting cases get flown to metropolitan hospitals!!!!!!!

PS. The students who are not that affected by this situation are the ones who know that they have places to go back to. Some mentors at clinical schools and at uni show considerable amount of concerns for international students because they have been informed of the psychological distress some students have been going through. Apparently a few breakdowns have been reported.

I just hope this may influence just .. some people who are thinking about coming to Australia. And their parents. That is alllllllllll if you think this is a joke, then please don't mind my posts.

Well I hope you get a resolution to your situation and can work out what you want.

But I can't imagine why you (or anyone) would rather be in Sydney than a 'rural' area in NSW, like say, Port Macquarie. Just my thoughts.

 

[Phloston]

Well I hope you get a resolution to your situation and can work out what you want.

But I can't imagine why you (or anyone) would rather be in Sydney than a 'rural' area in NSW, like say, Port Macquarie. Just my thoughts.

Awesome backpackers hostel there.

 

[pitman]

But the number of graduates are expected to raise by further 300-400 next year, and ha as if can go on for longer than a few years.

I'm not sure where you're getting that, but the number of grads is expected to rise about that many only after another 4 or 5 years, as the numbers plateau.

I just wanted to at least speak up on this forum because our first/second years complain that no one even told them to worry about teh internship situation; that everyone who they've asked/ forums have hinted that there's always been s solution at the end of the tunnel.

I think it's the extreme nature of your posts without appropriate qualification that's caused the reaction. Even in this post, you talk about how dire you think things are, and yet acknowledge that several states/territories have given spots to all and that the Coalition is promising to increase rural spots. Such attempts to keep up with the numbers have been the status quo.

As a former int'l student who came many years ago knowing of the problem from reading about it on multiple chat forums and thinking -- until at least the middle of my final year -- that I most likely would not be able to stay when I graduated, I personally have no sympathy for current students who claim they've been misled to believe that there isn't a serious risk. Taking this forum as example, most posts on the subject for more than a decade have been about how int'l students can't assume there'll be spots, with countless warnings over the same period that there wouldn't be any spots. I think I'm one of a very small handful of posters who have consistently countered that the problem is consistently exaggerated, but I too always qualify by saying that the problem gets worse every year and one should not come without knowing the trend.

People who come here not knowing of the risks have had their head in the sand. Those who come knowing the risks have their own valid reasons for coming and shouldn't be patronized.

 

[pre med 2014]

^ is the situation as bad for those seeking to come back to the US for residency? Or is the problem not as severe as it is for internationals seeking to stay in Australia?

 

[pre med 2014]

Hmm, it's my understanding that the reason UQ-O sends students for a 8 week rotation during year 4 is so legally they can be eligible for Australian internship placement, though subject to international bias.

Its intended that the students go back to the states but it seems like you could apply on both continents?? So this program in particular seems 'safer'

 

[Phloston]

On the other hand, a significant percentage of IMGs wishing to return to the US to practice medicine are turned down residency spots all the time. So statistically speaking, your chances of getting a spot in Australia are higher than in the US. The significant (and important) difference is that getting a spot in Australia *IF* there is a shortage will be entirely 100% luck based, as internships are doled out using a lottery system. If you wish to come back for a residency in the states however, you are largely in control of your own chances of being accepted seeing as it is a merit-based system.

Probably the best post I've seen on here in a while.

 

[514901]

Awesome backpackers hostel there.

Awesome everything over there. Probably my favorite surf spot in the country.

 

[pitman]

[duplicate]

 

[pitman]

Where do people keep getting the idea that the problem is "severe" to begin with. To date, every single IMG who has ever studied medicine in Australia has been offered an internship position if they wanted one. There is worry that if the current trends keep up, that there might be a few international students who miss out on internships in future years, although the Australian government has shown in recent years that they are working to increase these internship positions to accommodate the increasing number of graduates. If anything the problem is something to be weary of, but is by no means "severe".

On the other hand, a significant percentage of IMGs wishing to return to the US to practice medicine are turned down residency spots all the time. So statistically speaking, your chances of getting a spot in Australia are higher than in the US. The significant (and important) difference is that getting a spot in Australia *IF* there is a shortage will be entirely 100% luck based, as internships are doled out using a lottery system. If you wish to come back for a residency in the states however, you are largely in control of your own chances of being accepted seeing as it is a merit-based system.

Minor correction: acceptance is merit-based for international students at least in Qld and Victoria. I'd think other states will follow suit as a tradeoff for the federally funded spots. At any rate, as sidefx points out the odds of getting a spot here are (for now) still far better than in N. America.

 

[wonkytonks]

I am starting this thread not to be inflammatory but to be informative so if I find that my information is wrong, I am more than happy to edit this. This is a very important topic to internationals and I haven't seen much actual, properly thought-out information given on these threads - something that I think needs to be rectified. I am writing this as a warning and as a 'you have been warned' sort of thread. I don't think it needs to be much more or less than that, but feel free to add whatever you'd like.

So, you're thinking of coming to Australia for medical school. Firstly, congrats on getting in, I know how it feels to be constantly rejected in your own country despite relatively stellar grades/scores/resumes. Unfortunately, this is where the congrats more or less finish. If you are thinking of coming here, please note that medical school degrees in Australia, if you don't have permanent residency (kind of like a green card) or citizenship, is quickly becoming a more-or-less useless degree and here is why.

Requirements upon graduation
In order to get full registration in Australia, you need to complete an internship after graduating from medical school.

Internship Allocation
- These internships are allocated in a random manner based on your citizenship (each group gets a round of randomized allocations based on preferences and then, when all the applicants in that pool have gotten a placement, the next group gets pulled up, repeat untill all pools or internship spots have been used up). The typical order is:
1. In-state Australian/NZ grads
2. Out of state Australian/NZ grads
3. In-state internationals
4. Out of state internationals
5. Overseas non-Aussie grads
- As you can see from above, the internationals are ranked near the bottom of the allocation with no ability to allow merit to play a role (exceptions exist, but rarely and it's important to assume that they don't).

Internship crisis
- Since 2006, the number of of medical school spots has more than doubled and the expansion of internships has not kept pace whatsoever. This is because medical schools do not control internships as that is regulated by states and not by the schools.
- In 2012, we saw the first time that internationals did not get internships. 182 to be exact. This is a massive number and means that, for the most part, their degrees are completely useless in Australia. There are ZERO exceptions to the internship rule - if you want to practice in Australia with your Australian BMBS/MBBS/MD, you need that internship.
- The number of internationals missing out is expected to increase in the near future. The number of medical school grads (domestic & internationals) continues to increase and, in the near future, we are looking at even domestics having a difficult time finding internships.
Take home message - if you are an international looking to become a doctor in Australia upon graduation, make sure you get PR or citizenship before applying/entering medical school. Otherwise, you will almost definitely not be able to stay here (unless something drastic changes but that is looking to be incredibly unlikely with how the politicians have been bickering in the past few weeks).

Other options
- Many of you may say that this is ok, you'll just apply back to Canada or the USA. This is a terrible idea!
- Look at the CaRMs website for how Canadians Studying Abroad (CSAs) do in the match. It is less than 40% and this was back when there were, at most, only a hundred applicants. With internationals not getting internships in Australia, this number is guaranteed to drop as the Canadian government does not plan to increase spots available to CSAs and the number of applicants will invariably increase significantly.
- This leaves the USA. The USA is quickly becoming more and more difficult for IMGs as well. Firstly, you have to write the USMLE. Australian pre-clinical training is nowhere near the level you need to write the USMLE, you should assume that you will just be doing this on your own and out of your own pocket (books, materials, time off, exam fees, flights, etc). This is a rather daunting task although not impossible. Secondly, you will have to do well enough to compete against the local grads (looking at >90th %ile). Thirdly, you will need to find a residency director willing to sponsor you for a J1 or H1b visa. These are very very difficult to get and cost the hospital time and money. Get the picture? If you want to go to the USA, go to the Caribbean, get the USMLE training you need and the guaranteed USA rotations you need and you will stand a much better chance. I cannot emphasize this enough because many internationals get into this fallacy that Caribbean schools being worse than Australian and so you'll be a worse doctor --> [size=14pt]medical school reputation means jack squat![/size] Your post-graduate training and personal work ethic/motivation will have the greatest influence on your capabilities as a doctor, not where you went for medical school. Plus, the Caribbean is WAY cheaper (tuition + living).

Take home message
Unless you have guaranteed options to return home, go somewhere else for post-grad training and/or love to take massive gambles (your career could essentially be over before it begins along with the massive debt of 4 years of med school/living in Aus), you should NOT come to Aus as an international student. Not at least until this internship crisis has sorted itself out (not looking likely at the moment).

Please feel free to message or contact me if you have questions.

I just have one question is the situation bleak when applying for residencies in Australia?I have done my MBBS from India.

 

[514901]

Where do people keep getting the idea that the problem is "severe" to begin with. To date, every single IMG who has ever studied medicine in Australia has been offered an internship position if they wanted one. There is worry that if the current trends keep up, that there might be a few international students who miss out on internships in future years, although the Australian government has shown in recent years that they are working to increase these internship positions to accommodate the increasing number of graduates. If anything the problem is something to be weary of, but is by no means "severe".

On the other hand, a significant percentage of IMGs wishing to return to the US to practice medicine are turned down residency spots all the time. So statistically speaking, your chances of getting a spot in Australia are higher than in the US. The significant (and important) difference is that getting a spot in Australia *IF* there is a shortage will be entirely 100% luck based, as internships are doled out using a lottery system. If you wish to come back for a residency in the states however, you are largely in control of your own chances of being accepted seeing as it is a merit-based system.

It's an issue because a few internationals missed out last year. Also, hospitals have an incentive to take on large numbers of interns as the federal gov't funds the spots. But beyond that level, hospitals must provide the salary compensation, which means that a huge number of doctors at the PGY-2 and above level may be out of a job. It also means interns are working fewer hours, getting less instruction, less OT pay, and less work. What's going to happen is that there will be a massive bottleneck at the lower levels of the hospital system while hospitals will continue to struggle to have adequate numbers to fill the higher levels in the physician stream.

 

[Leforte]

I just have one question is the situation bleak when applying for residencies in Australia?I have done my MBBS from India.

To get a residency in Australia, as an IMG from India, you will need to do the following:

1) Pass the AMC written
2) Pass the AMC clinicals
- The first 2 items can take 2+ years
3) Find a PHO/resident job
4) Get your AMC certificate and apply for registration
5) Migrate to Australia and do a minimum of 2 years of JHO/PHO jobs
6) Get Permanent Residency - can be done after 2 years in country
7) Apply for residency positions (you can only do this as a Permanent Resident)

People who I have seen from foreign countries who migrate after their primary medical degree can take 5+ years to get into competitive specialties (I am really only around surgeons, so there is a bias there).

If you want to be a GP or physician, things are easier, but again, you need Permanent residency first.

 

[pitman]

It's an issue because a few internationals missed out last year.

Not really. There were ~176 int'ls who didn't get a spot through the normal state ballots. Then there were ~100 additional spots subsidized federally at the end of the year, of which there remained ~10 that were never filled. In other words, there was in the end a surplus of internship spots.

An update should be available in early December for next year -- I do expect some int'ls to miss out.

 

[Sophi]

how can an international medical student get Permanent residency?

thanks!

 

[thomas pynchon]

how can an international medical student get Permanent residency?

thanks!

Your best bet in all honesty would be to latch onto an Australian guy (before he embarks upon the annual quest of sexual conquest in Thailand).

 

[Sophi]

haha thats pretty funny.
I will be starting first year at Sydney University and your posts have alarmed me and have me worried but I appreciate all the heads up!
I think as a Canadian I will have to try my shot at the US. When should I start studying for the USMLE, I already brought a prep book,
Can someone give me advice on how else I can prepare for the USMLE since it seems studying in Australia puts me at a big disadvantage for prepping for the exam compared to Carribean and US medical students.
Also how many weeks of electives or clinic rotations can I do in the US? Can I do most of my last two years of clinics in the US?

Thanks for the help!

 

[thomas pynchon]

I actually think you'll be fine, the internship crisis will be cleaned up by the time you graduate--check out some of the posts above...

 

[monsterink]

I actually think you'll be fine, the internship crisis will be cleaned up by the time you graduate--check out some of the posts above...

are u on drug ??? go on Paging Doctor forum if you really want to know the real situation in Australia cause the posts are from Australian people.
Please read, it'll just get worse, especially due to the new budget brought by Tony Abbott


"An audit of the number of medical internships to be offered next year forecasts that 240 students will not be offered a position upon graduation – all of them international students who have spent an average $250,000 to complete the course"

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/medical-s...tage-looms-20140930-10o806.html#ixzz3EsfNsVQd

getting a lot worse due to the budget
http://www.catherineking.com.au/media/abbott’s-budget-adds-to-doctor-shortage/

 

[pitman]

As opposed to the current and past students who post here on SDN?

Your first reference is the annual alarmist story that says nothing new or insightful but throws out a completely bogus "240" number (e.g., why include those students who fail out?!), just as every year stories come out prematurely claiming a shortage of 'X' for that year (the formerly anti-int'l-student-now-shrill-supporter AMSA usually being featured). The specific problems with this latest claim are addressed in another thread:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/anyone-applying-for-2015.1063442/page-11#post-15772322

Your second reference is to a Labor Minister's website again referencing AMSA to support her spin about cuts made to a GP term made available by the Commonwealth to interns and RMOs for the purpose of increasing interest in GP training -- something that arguably no longer needs to be done. (And most ironic of all -- it was Labor that proposed axing the program, in part to pay for the Commonwealth Medical Internship (CMI) initiative). The result was a decrease in funded pre-vocational GP terms, and some states like SA responded by cutting their internship numbers rather than by covering their shortfall (or even half of it) by splitting the cost of additional CMI spots with the Commonwealth.

For sure, it's better to have more federal money than less, and the PGPPP program was better funded than the CMI. But the effect on internship numbers across the country was about the same at less than 100, i.e., there's no meaningful net difference! Also keep in mind that internship is the states' responsibility, with the Commonwealth offering to fund programs for specific, short-term targets. In the past that meant funding to promote GP careers. Now with the tsunami, and the sprouting of popular rural GP programs across the country, the GP colleges are difficult to get into, and so the PGPPP has lost its main purpose. Funding is now directed instead at helping int'l students get internship, by creating/maintaining spots in private hospitals. It is the Commonwealth's way of directing the future of training after years of discussions about training in private hospitals that everyone knew would have to happen but went nowhere. The carrot that got things going was that the CMI spots are (currently) for int'l students that every state wants to keep. The result (on internship) is simply a shift in spots from one target area to another. Oh, and the clincher: the extra savings from cutting the PGPPP after paying for the CMI went to AGPT so that it can train 1500 GP registrars per year instead of 1200, to keep up with demand. Money well shifted, if you ask me.

Overall, there is no shortage of spots for domestic students, and until now there has been no shortage for int'l students. It will not be known if the CMI spots will be sufficient for the international students again this year until the beginning of 2015.

 

[monsterink]

If there was no shortage like what you said, no one on Australian forums (ex : Paging Doctor forum) would need to warn their international friends about the problem. many medical students already see their international fellows missing out of intern and have to return to their country of origin and get paid dirt cheap there.:
also, if international students get an intern, hospitals are very reluctant to sponsor visas for PGY2 jobs. also if international students are fortunate enough for an intern, there is still the 10 YEAR MORATORIUM THAT International students have to suffer .
with this tsunami of junior doctors, the 10 year moratorium will very likely restrict training pathways even more than the situation at the moment...............especially international students are placed in rural areas for their internship

 

[pitman]

If there was no shortage like what you said, no one on Australian forums (ex : Paging Doctor forum) would need to warn their international friends...

1) I was just now responding to two alarmist references that you erroneously used in support of your argument that things won't have resolved in the next few years. I never said I was as optimistic as the poster you responded to. Having said that...

2) If your argument is instead that there has been a shortage of spots, well, then you and anyone on pagingdr arguing this are simply wrong, as explained well many times on the SDN forums. I cannot help it if those on pagingdr are less-informed.

3) If you are arguing that there WILL be a shortage (this year? Next year, when the grad numbers plateau?), then my response is, there may or may not be. Certainly your references don't support your notion, as discussed, and empirically, there hasn't been one yet despite the annual (for about a decade) scaremongering to the contrary.

many medical students already see their international fellows missing out of intern and have to return to their country of origin and get paid dirt cheap there.

Um. No. There are many ways to argue how wrong this statement is, but the most straightforward, undeniable way is to point out that prior to two years ago, there have been no shortages of state-based internship spots, and for the past two years, there have been many CMI spots (reserved for int'l students, with the lowest of low entry requirements) left unfilled. Period. Think about this.

also, if international students get an intern, hospitals are very reluctant to sponsor visas for PGY2 jobs.

I have no idea how you infer this. Hospitals have volunteered to have CMI spots (for int'l students to undergo internship). It is illogical to then say that those hospitals won't take the interns they've agreed to because of some perceived issue with them sponsoring PGY2s (not to mention how doing so for the regular Ballot would be flagrantly violating their own Ballot rules such that they would never get away with it). Moreover, int'ls who stay do not have to rely on hospital sponsorship for their visa, while every health district and virtually every training hospital has been managing sponsorships for years. There is no reason to believe that there has been or will be any reluctance by hospitals to hire former int'l students, for any reason.

also if international students are fortunate enough for an intern, there is still the 10 YEAR MORATORIUM THAT International students have to suffer .

Suffer? 1) Areas of Need exist all over the country, even within just 20/60 of major CBDs such as Brisbane. Virtually every regional centre is also an Area of Need. 2) I helped lobby to have the 10-year moratorium reduced (to as little as 5 years, depending on how rural one works). 3) the Moratorium does not affect training, except that those doing GP cannot be in a major metropolitan area for their GP training component and must do a procedural year. 4) All the Moratorium effectively does is prevent Medicare private billing without an exemption after training (by which time half or more of the Moratorium period has already gone by!).

with this tsunami of junior doctors, the 10 year moratorium will very likely restrict training pathways even more than the situation at the moment...............especially international students are placed in rural areas for their internship

The Moratorium has nothing to do with where one does internship. Absolutely nothing. The Moratorium doesn't even apply until after internship is completed. It has nothing to do with where one does the rest of one's training either, except for two years of GP training as mentioned above. Meanwhile the CMI internship spots -- created and specified for international students who didn't get a spot during the normal state Ballot processes -- are virtually all in *metropolitan* (RA1) areas. There are no rules whatsoever that make int'ls go to rural areas for internship, RMO, or registrar training besides part of GP training, any more than that which applies to any domestic student. Instead, they aren't even allowed to join the state-based Rural Generalist Programs that do place domestic students rurally for their training (albeit in regional centres for the first two years).

Please get your facts straight. You really don't understand any of this.

 

[pitman]

are u on drug ??? go on Paging Doctor forum if you really want to know the real situation in Australia cause the posts are from Australian people.

Funny thing, I just went to pagingdr, and its discussion of that SMH article was not about purported shortages but about how stupid AMSA is for feeding it.

Hmmmm.....

 

[Transition]

Funny thing, I just went to pagingdr, and its discussion of that SMH article was not about purported shortages but about how stupid AMSA is for feeding it.

Hmmmm.....

Nope. More misinformation from pitman. This was certainly not the full point of the discussion. Instead, the discussion was centred on how AMSA should not be supporting increased internship spots without looking at the looming shortage of RMO and specialist training spots.

Irrespective, take everything you read here with a grain of salt. Go to paging dr if you want a more reasonable discussion which won't fall into childish name calling, as so happens when pitman's involved in a thread. Certainly, as I have stated in the past, the consensus from the Aussie medical community is that the problem is going to be much worse, that there are not enough jobs, and that internationals will certainly be the first one's to get the short end of the stick. This is for internship all the way through to PGY2+.

As usual, be careful, be informed and make up your own mind with as much robust reading as possible.

 

[Transition]

Look at these numbers... Queensland alone.

http://imgur.com/aaIDhcd,ZpzIwvj

But as usual, let's wait and see how pitman will come in and insult me and the logic of most everyone on paging dr.

Here's the thread:
http://pagingdr.net/forum/index.php?topic=6346.0

 

[pitman]

But as usual, let's wait and see how pitman will come in and insult me and the logic of most everyone on paging dr.

Here's the thread:
http://pagingdr.net/forum/index.php?topic=6346.0

Very strange that Transition finds the need to jump in here to mimic the comparative praise for pagingdr, claiming some sort of consensus there (one not in disagreement with me, incidentally), speaking on behalf of 'Them', but then references a thread there that shows quite diverse opinions on a different issue! Weird stuff.

Meanwhile, the discussion on pagingdr of the above SMH article is in fact, as I just said, limited to criticism of AMSA's contribution to it. The entirety of THAT discussion (including my contribution to it) can be found here:
http://pagingdr.net/forum/index.php?topic=6346.50
(I suppose I should be flattered to be part of the projected Collective that Transition is praising).

Meanwhile, I see in his response absolutely nothing specific to any of my points in the above critiques of that appalling SMH article or Labor politician's(!) website, just a 'Go to pagingdr to see what's real' (another funny thing to say, in this thread that Transition actually started here on SDN, don't ya think?). I certainly agree that people should go to as many websites as possible to learn about the issues, but not to steer them to one slanted belief or another that they claim on behalf of Others, but because I think people can think and critique posts all by themselves.

So, um, yeah. Keep making stuff up, Transition, just like how you began this thread with bogus alarmist claims of hundreds of grads not having gotten jobs ("182 to be exact"), which you *still* refuse to correct. And I'll keep pointing it out and asking what sort of agenda makes one do such a thing. Tit for tat.

 

[pitman]

Look at these numbers... Queensland alone.

http://imgur.com/aaIDhcd,ZpzIwvj

Yes, by all means, look at that table of numbers. Exhibit A for all to see. It appears to be illustrating the recent flattening of the tsunami, reporting no increase in demand for internship, JHO, SHO, PHO, and registrar positions in Queensland from 2014 to 2015. It also reports far more positions available than demanded for 2014 (1355 positions made available for 874 JHOs and SHOs, and 2846 PHO and registrar positions for 1596 aspiring PHOs and registrars).

So...yeah. I have no reason to question your data, but you think it supports your argument that...what, exactly? Meanwhile, it's not inconsistent with anything's I've ever said. On the other hand, I've never argued that the growth in grad numbers over the past decade has been a wholly *good* thing, or that there aren't problems with training all the recent grads (many of which I've discussed). I was after all in the first cohort that referred to the "tsunami" in the first place, where it began, in Queensland, and lobbied for action to address the issues when most medical bodies (including AMSA) were still in denial. Are you really going to project some position of mine?

Yet I am here rebutting scaremongering alarmists posting pure nonsense that's unsupported by the data or history. Fancy that.

Go ahead, make up more. I'll keep responding.

 

[Transition]

Yes, by all means, look at that table of numbers. Exhibit A for all to see. It appears to be illustrating the recent flattening of the tsunami, reporting no increase in demand for internship, JHO, SHO, PHO, and registrar positions in Queensland from 2014 to 2015. It also reports far more positions available than demanded for 2014 (1355 positions made available for 874 JHOs and SHOs, and 2846 PHO and registrar positions for 1596 aspiring PHOs and registrars).

So...yeah. I have no reason to question your data, but you think it supports your argument that...what, exactly? Meanwhile, it's not inconsistent with anything's I've ever said. On the other hand, I've never argued that the growth in grad numbers over the past decade has been a wholly *good* thing, or that there aren't problems with training all the recent grads (many of which I've discussed). I was after all in the first cohort that referred to the "tsunami" in the first place, where it began, in Queensland, and lobbied for action to address the issues when most medical bodies (including AMSA) were still in denial. Are you really going to project some position of mine?

Yet I am here rebutting scaremongering alarmists posting pure nonsense that's unsupported by the data or history. Fancy that.

Go ahead, make up more. I'll keep responding.

2014: 705 positions, 690 P1 grads, 133 P4; total: 823
2015: 705 positions, 704 P1, 161 P4; total: 865
2016: TBD positions, 723 P1, 138 P4, total: 861
2017: TBD positions, 724 P1, 152 P4, total: 876

Doesn't look like the numbers are even to me. Even adding 1 more applicant to an already bloated/at capacity system makes for a precarious situation.

I will continue to preach extreme caution, as the people on paging dr do, as well as the majority of the medicos here, and you can continue on your trollish tirades with whatever pseudo-agenda you seem to have driving you.

As for your posts on paging dr, it seems you are much more cautious with your words there as you are here. Possibly due to better admin enforcement, but also likely because your opinion is a largely muted minority. You seem to have missed the point of that paging dr thread which, as I stated previously, was not about judging AMSA, but rather being critical of bodies which support increasing intern spots without increasing JHO/training spots as the bottleneck is simply climbing the chains in the system.

But then, I would expect nothing less from you but to skew and see things as only you would prefer. As usual, I will not reply further to you as you continue to behave in a manner which does not promote healthy debate, but rather pitiful arguing.

Some reading for those that want to perform due diligence on the ~$300K investment you may be making in your medical degree by coming here: http://pagingdr.net/forum/index.php?topic=5568.0

 

[pitman]

2014: 705 positions, 690 P1 grads, 133 P4; total: 823
2015: 705 positions, 704 P1, 161 P4; total: 865
2016: TBD positions, 723 P1, 138 P4, total: 861
2017: TBD positions, 724 P1, 152 P4, total: 876

Doesn't look like the numbers are even to me...

Um. The table I just referenced was YOUR reference. I don't respond to arguments not made.
Here is your OWN reference, the one that you claimed says something and which I responded to:
http://imgur.com/aaIDhcd,ZpzIwvj
Again, how does that reference support anything you're arguing, and refute anything I've argued? Hm? It actually contradicts your numbers above -- which of your "references" do want us to believe?

 

[pitman]

Even adding 1 more applicant to an already bloated/at capacity system makes for a precarious situation.

I will continue to preach extreme caution, as the people on paging dr do, as well as the majority of the medicos here, and you can continue on your trollish tirades with whatever pseudo-agenda you seem to have driving you.

I'm the one on tirades? You spew nonsense, and I go back to the data to show how you're out of line. Period.

The number of spots will plateau in 2016 according to the MTRP data (2012, 2013, or 2014, take your pick -- do you want to argue with them?). They also include all the Ochsner students from 2009, who obviously shouldn't be counted in any tally of grads vs. Australian internship spots (though they certainly are by lobbyists).

The AMA, in its campaign to increase training spots, also agrees (with the MTRP):
"We know how many medical graduates are coming through. We know that this number is set to plateau after 2016. We know that it will likely stay that way unless the government lifts the cap on medical student numbers, or approves new medical schools, after this date."
(Editorial, 'Australian Medicine', 14 Oct 2014)

What I've said on the matter is that the numbers are plateauing, with the large increases seen up to 2012 (500 or more a year, year on year) to be seen again only after a total of 4-5 years. I've posted the MTRP charts multiple times, and anyone following this issue can easily look them up.

And I've argued (correctly) that the creation of spots since 2012 demonstrates that there will be enough internship spots for all domestic students (to the plateau), and that there isn't reason to assert that there won't be enough spots for a large number of int'l students -- having explicitly said that the percentage will be determined by the political will to continue the CMI initiative. In fact, I've argued that we shouldn't expect all int'ls to get a spot.

The fact remains that so far, there have been more spots than those wanting to stay, as evidenced by the empty spots each year to date. And as I even said a page or so ago on this very thread, that may not be the case this year.

Are you arguing with any of that? Or still projecting?

As for your posts on paging dr, it seems you are much more cautious with your words there as you are here. Possibly due to better admin enforcement, but also likely because your opinion is a largely muted minority. You seem to have missed the point of that paging dr thread which, as I stated previously, was not about judging AMSA, but rather being critical of bodies which support increasing intern spots without increasing JHO/training spots as the bottleneck is simply climbing the chains in the system.

Your continued projection and strawman argumentation are pitiful. Go ahead and be cautious, and advise caution. As do I. I simply don't preach to people like you do, and I back up what I say with the data and known history.

As to pagingdr, yes, maybe I am more moderate there because they moderate out the trolls that I tend to clash with. The problem you have here is that you somehow think I disagree with the notion that bodies shouldn't be promoting grad number increases without addressing the very real problems of how to train the JHOs/RMOs/registrars. Um. I agree with that sentiment, as I've discussed. That was not what you were claiming above (you projected something about something), and not what I responded to (your further projection). I responded to misinformation and explained how it is misinformation. You just didn't get it.

Doh.

 

[Transition]

Um. The table I just referenced was YOUR reference. I don't respond to arguments not made.
Here is your OWN reference, the one that you claimed says something and which I responded to:
http://imgur.com/aaIDhcd,ZpzIwvj
Again, how does that reference support anything you're arguing, and refute anything I've argued? Hm?

Click on the 2nd image. That will reveal an image tallying total internship spots.

As to your other rant... I don't care what you have to say about me. I just hope the stance I am taking helps some people/scares them into properly following up on the due diligence necessary of the investment they are about to make.

As to pagingdr, yes, maybe I am more moderate there because they moderate out the trolls. The problem you have here is that you somehow think I disagree with the notion that bodies shouldn't be promoting increases without addressing the very real problems of how to train the JHOs/RMOs/registrars. Um. I agree with that sentiment, as I've discussed. That was not what you were claiming above (you projected something about it), and not what I responded to (your further projection). I responded to misinformation and explained how it is misinformation.

Doh.

So... you admit you're a troll? Hahahaha... d'oh indeed.

Edit: last year's tsunami thread preaching just as much caution as I have been - http://pagingdr.net/forum/index.php?topic=5568.0

Highly recommended reading for those considering coming here.

 

[pitman]

I don't care what you have to say about me

Hey bud, you are the one who came out personalizing.

I too hope that people here do their 'due diligence', based off of facts, not misinformation (like your "186 to be exact" grads without jobs) that implies an agenda.

If you take issue with anything specific I've actually said, then try a line-by-line. Otherwise, please read more carefully and stop the projecting.

 

[qldking]

bashwell--

1. You are not guaranteed a job next year and could easily miss out on internship (it's already established that domestics won't be guaranteed spots starting in 2016).

2. By all indications, CMI positions have provided and proven to be equal to or better than state health positions. The issue is that CMI spots have arisen solely due to the gluttony of the med schools like UQ. CMI spots are a purely good faith effort by the govt and private system.

 

[pitman]

1) I haven't heard this, it must be quite new if the states' agreement to guarantee them spots has been rescinded -- from the current COAG? Which states? Do you have a reference? Or are you referring to the non-CSP (full-fee) domestic students who haven't had any such guarantee?...because it would be a strange thing indeed to guarantee spots up until the numbers plateaued in 2016, but then not to once all the spots needed already existed!

2) It's the states (and originally, the Commonwealth) that allow med schools -- USyd, UQ, UNSW, Monash, etc. -- to massively increase their int'ls spots, for all the reasons that they do (going back to Flinders in 1995, which started the trend so as not to go broke). In fact, there wouldn't be grad programs were it not for the influx of int'ls. UQ at least now sends 100 per year out of Australia, to Ochsner, before the clinical years, leaving fewer int'ls in Qld than in NSW (MTRP 2014, Table D4).

The CMI spots were created at the federal level to help guarantee that some reasonable percentage of int'ls can stay, since the issue is multi-state, and the Commonwealth has a vested interest. Maintaining a reasonable probability of staying after graduating, independent of state, is prob the most efficient way to save the int'l student market that the states have relied on to keep many of the med schools from going broke (the barrier to the CMI initiative was not really its funding -- it is is costing a mere $10mill a year, while it helps maintain $200mill+ a year in tuition and living expense (state and local) financing [not counting all the benefits of keeping locally-trained doctors] -- conversely, if it were simply about this modest funding, the Commonwealth could easily have stipulated as a condition that states must reduce their student numbers, and states could in the end weigh up the relative benefits of going it alone).

But...that has simply been the immediate impetus for the CMI spots -- the fundamental motivation (or convenient pairing, if you will) was to create a carrot for the states to start training in private hospitals, something that has been discussed as a necessary solution to the (originally, domestic) student tsunami starting a decade ago but which went nowhere (due chiefly to stigma and resistance from domestic docs in the respective states)...until now, with int'ls the ones breaking the waters.

As the number of grads plateaus (in 2016), there won't be the need to continue increasing spots, and the private hospitals will increasingly be training more advanced trainees -- including domestic students, as reservations are subdued -- usu in concert with public hospital partners. The CMI initiative is a well-thought out idea that has only come to fruition because of multiple interests merging -- a rare example of smart federal-state collaboration IMO.

Of course, all this is independent of the ongoing debate about whether there are too many grads being pumped out, weighed against financial constraints, the need for rural doctors, etc. As if not obvious, my points here are simply what I've said above, and one should infer nothing else from them.

 

[pitman]

You are not guaranteed a job next year and could easily miss out on internship (it's already established that domestics won't be guaranteed spots starting in 2016).

I'd still like to see qldking clarify his assertion and back it up with a reference. On the face of it, it doesn't ring true.

 

[pitman]

I'd still like to see qldking clarify his assertion and back it up with a reference. On the face of it, it doesn't ring true.

Still waiting...


Or are you simply making **** up again?
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/uq-ochsner-2014.1019329/page-7#post-15403396

 

[IsabelDaza]

bashwell--

1. You are not guaranteed a job next year and could easily miss out on internship (it's already established that domestics won't be guaranteed spots starting in 2016).

This is complete nonsense. I am a domestic student graduating in 2017 and I am absolutely guaranteed an internship position.

 

[Phloston]

Agree that references should be supplied for significant overarching statements.

 

[singmed15]

Thanks qldking. I don't know anything about the CMI spots so I'll defer to you, pitman and others. Thanks for the additional remarks and clarifications.

I'll just make a quick point about #1 though. The website could be wrong, but I'm only going off of what's on the NSW priority list here where it currently states: "Medical graduates of NSW universities who are Australian/New Zealand citizens or Australian permanent residents (Commonwealth Supported Place and Domestic Full Fee paying. This priority category is guaranteed an intern position in NSW."

Hey Bashwell, I'm an incoming med student to Qld for 2015, and from the QHealth website, it seems that Qld's method of allocation is similar (at least in principle) to that of NSW.

However, if that's the case, and intern allocation is a lottery, how does that system work? Does that mean that merit or any other exam/factor not play a role in what position you are given?

I should also add that I'm a CSP student as well.

 

[bashwell]

Hey Bashwell, I'm an incoming med student to Qld for 2015, and from the QHealth website, it seems that Qld's method of allocation is similar (at least in principle) to that of NSW.

However, if that's the case, and intern allocation is a lottery, how does that system work? Does that mean that merit or any other exam/factor not play a role in what position you are given?

I should also add that I'm a CSP student as well.

Hey singmed15, sorry, I don't know QLD as well as others here (e.g. pitman), but if you're CSP (and thus PR/citizen) at UQ you shouldn't have a problem getting an internship in QLD, I don't think. Things might change when you graduate (2019). It could get better or it could get worse, hard to say. But as a CSP, you'd be with everyone else (local/domestic) so you'd have as good a chance as anyone else I imagine. But maybe others like pitman can better guide you?

 

[pitman]

CSP students are guaranteed an internship spot in Qld. There is no reason to believe that this will change, in part because after 2015 there will be no further increases in grad numbers.

CSP students are Priority 1 (P1) for the internship Ballot. This means that after ranking all training hospitals in Qld, you will be assigned to one of them based on a lottery system, in which you get your 1st preference if that hospital is not over-subscribed, otherwise you may get bumped (randomly) down your preferences. The process is described here:
http://www.health.qld.gov.au/medical/intern/selection.asp

 

[REDHAWK2]

hello,

ill be applying for the 2016 intake, ive following this topic for several months now, i've had trouble finding recent updates does anyone know whats happening with the international graduates from this year. i.e have any seeking to stay in Australia missed out.

 

[pitman]

hello,

ill be applying for the 2016 intake, ive following this topic for several months now, i've had trouble finding recent updates does anyone know whats happening with the international graduates from this year. i.e have any seeking to stay in Australia missed out.

Almost certainly. But numbers won't be known until next year, after surveys are done to try to separate those who intended to leave from those who wanted to stay.

 

[singmed15]

CSP students are guaranteed an internship spot in Qld. There is no reason to believe that this will change, in part because after 2015 there will be no further increases in grad numbers.

CSP students are Priority 1 (P1) for the internship Ballot. This means that after ranking all training hospitals in Qld, you will be assigned to one of them based on a lottery system, in which you get your 1st preference if that hospital is not over-subscribed, otherwise you may get bumped (randomly) down your preferences. The process is described here:
http://www.health.qld.gov.au/medical/intern/selection.asp

Thanks for answering Pitman, I appreciate it.

Having looked over the selection process, it does seem a bit strange. Does that mean that no matter what your scores/refs./ECs/etc. are in med school, they have no bearing (or not much) on where you get placed?

 

[pitman]

Thanks for answering Pitman, I appreciate it.

Having looked over the selection process, it does seem a bit strange. Does that mean that no matter what your scores/refs./ECs/etc. are in med school, they have no bearing (or not much) on where you get placed?

As a domestic student applying in Qld, that is correct -- no bearing whatsoever.

 

[LAtoDavis]

I'm a US citizen (by birth and residence), but I'm considering attending medical school at the University of Melbourne. Since Melbourne is in Victoria, do you guys think that securing an internship in Victoria for someone such as myself would be easier than in Queensland or New South Wales? I will not be applying to any other Australian university. Thanks

 

[pitman]

I don't think anyone knows the answer to that question, because state and Commonwealth policies and initiatives change all the time. On the face of it, maybe, because Victoria will be increasing its grad numbers (at least from 2012 to 2018) the least:

VIC
2012: 795
2018: 876

QLD
2012: 752
2018: 918

NSW
2012: 971
2018: 1112

Vic also puts its int'ls higher up in priority for its Ballot than do NSW and QLD (though there's a fairly good chance that at least Qld will increase the priority similarly for its int'l students). On the other hand, Vic had the largest deficit of spots for the 2013 internship intake, and it can't be assumed that Vic will as easily ramp up its internship spots over these years as NSW or Qld. So, I think there are too many caveats to predict the relative chances with any degree of confidence.

For a little more analysis of the graduate data, see:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/applying-to-australia-for-2016.1109469/#post-15929191

 

[LAtoDavis]

I don't think anyone knows the answer to that question, because state and Commonwealth policies and initiatives change all the time. On the face of it, maybe, because Victoria will be increasing its grad numbers (at least from 2012 to 2018) the least:

VIC
2012: 795
2018: 876

QLD
2012: 752
2018: 918

NSW
2012: 971
2018: 1112

Vic also puts its int'ls higher up in priority for its Ballot than do NSW and QLD (though there's a fairly good chance that at least Qld will increase the priority similarly for its int'l students). On the other hand, Vic had the largest deficit of spots for the 2013 internship intake, and it can't be assumed that Vic will as easily ramp up its internship spots over these years as NSW or Qld. So, I think there are too many caveats to predict the relative chances with any degree of confidence.

For a little more analysis of the graduate data, see:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/applying-to-australia-for-2016.1109469/#post-15929191

Thanks for the response. I'm fairly new to the Australian/Oceania forum, but I'm reading and learning a lot.

Anyhow, if you're curious, it seems like Australian universities are decreasing US student admissions, too; the University of Sydney doesn't accept US-originated federal loans, and the University of Melbourne ceased its contract with the application service it previously used for US students. This is apparently recent news according to an admissions rep I talked to, today. And whether UMel and USyd did this to help the internship shortage or make room for other international students, I don't know.

What do you think about the University of Western Australia in regard to internship availability? They grant an MD and seem to be a decent, established school.

 

[pitman]

Thanks for the response. I'm fairly new to the Australian/Oceania forum, but I'm reading and learning a lot.

Anyhow, if you're curious, it seems like Australian universities are decreasing US student admissions, too; the University of Sydney doesn't accept US-originated federal loans, and the University of Melbourne ceased its contract with the application service it previously used for US students. This is apparently recent news according to an admissions rep I talked to, today. And whether UMel and USyd did this to help the internship shortage or make room for other international students, I don't know.

What do you think about the University of Western Australia in regard to internship availability? They grant an MD and seem to be a decent, established school.

From what I understand, USyd lost the ability to accept Stafford loans because it did not meet the rather onerous critieria by the US federal govt for accepting them (specifically, the stipulation that a certain percentage of ALL its takers pass the USMLE Step 1, rather than simply its int'l students, or American students -- there's a discussion of this in this thread: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/university-of-sydney-no-longer-accepts-us-finaid.1076515/). Then again, someone posted here or on pagingdr not long ago that it has regained that ability, but if not, then I'm not sure if what's going on there is a result of any administrative "choice". At any rate, there have never been a lot of American students here, at least compared to the Asians and Canadians (e.g., only 85, less than 1 in 7, of the int'ls commencing in 2012 were American, and a large chunk of that would be at UQ -- maybe some schools have decided that UQ has 'cornered' the market with Ochsner and don't want the headache of ensuring suitably high USMLE pass rates, who knows).

My reasoning on UWA/WA internship would be similar to how I broke down the numbers on the east coast -- from the MTRP. The state used to promise all its grads an internship, but I don't now if that's still in play (it certainly promises its domestic students internship, as all states do).

 

[bashwell]

Just a quick update. Anecdotally I know a lot of international students in NSW. All who wanted an internship in Australia got one. Some had to wait as late as this Nov/Dec. A lot of them got internships via CMI. A lot of them had to move to places outside the big cities like Sydney (e.g. Coffs Harbour which I actually quite like). But in the end every international student that I know or know of got an internship somewhere in Australia.