WashU vs. Minnesota

[sg3333]

I'm IS at minnesota and liked both of them at the interview. Usually people say take the cheaper option but is the prestige difference here worth it to go to WashU? Any personal opinions? I don't know what I want to go into but want to keep my options open. Minnesota is 38k tuition while washu is 50k.

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[flatearth22]

Unless you know for a fact that you want to go into primary care and/or have a very compelling reason to stay in MN (family, kids, etc.) go with WashU.

 

[mtwop]

Wash U if looking into anything competetive

 

[sg3333]

Damn pretty surprised by the answers. I'm leaning toward MN as it is a top 40 school and definitely won't hold me back from a competitive specialty itself. Plus, WashU is ranked high but I don't think it has the 'name-power' of Harvard, mayo, stanford, etc. Also, it turns out tuition at MN is actually 33k averaged over 4 years which is a lot less than 50k.

I don't know what I want to do so why would I want to close doors to primary care just by school choice (at washu a student told me that not a single person in his class was going into primary care). Here is the match list for Minnesota:
http://www.meded.umn.edu/residency/match/documents/2011MatchList_000.pdf

Seems like a good mix of specialties. Is this a good match list?

 

[flatearth22]

Damn pretty surprised by the answers. I'm leaning toward MN as it is a top 40 school and definitely won't hold me back from a competitive specialty itself. Plus, WashU is ranked high but I don't think it has the 'name-power' of Harvard, mayo, stanford, etc. Also, it turns out tuition at MN is actually 33k averaged over 4 years which is a lot less than 50k.

I don't know what I want to do so why would I want to close doors to primary care just by school choice (at washu a student told me that not a single person in his class was going into primary care). Here is the match list for Minnesota:
http://www.meded.umn.edu/residency/match/documents/2011MatchList_000.pdf

Seems like a good mix of specialties. Is this a good match list?

WashU has the 'name-power' with people that matter (ie - program directors of elite, competitive residency programs). MN is a good med school but not a top level public school like UMich, UCSF, U-Dub, etc. If it was between one of those and WashU then it would be a different story.

Plus WashU is a research powerhouse that will give you tons of resources to do high quality research which is more and more important these days for getting into top level residencies. Also you will not be closed off from primary care by going to WashU....the fact that few people choose to go into primary care from there is because of self-selection, not because they couldn't do it laugh: at the idea that a student from a top 10 school couldn't get into primary care if they wanted it).

You also don't know what kind of aid you'll get from WashU and/or FAFSA....so definately hold on to the acceptance till May because they might make it more affordable for you. You might even be able to use your MN acceptance (and other acceptances) as a bargaining chip....who knows.

 

[FearlessHyena]

Damn pretty surprised by the answers. I'm leaning toward MN as it is a top 40 school and definitely won't hold me back from a competitive specialty itself. Plus, WashU is ranked high but I don't think it has the 'name-power' of Harvard, mayo, stanford, etc. Also, it turns out tuition at MN is actually 33k averaged over 4 years which is a lot less than 50k.

I don't know what I want to do so why would I want to close doors to primary care just by school choice (at washu a student told me that not a single person in his class was going into primary care). Here is the match list for Minnesota:
http://www.meded.umn.edu/residency/match/documents/2011MatchList_000.pdf

Seems like a good mix of specialties. Is this a good match list?

From what you wrote, I feel you would be happier at the u. One thing to consider is that Wash U is pretty good with aid. So, the price difference might not be so great. I have a couple friends at Wash U. It is a competitive school. St. Louis is not the best city and Minneapolis rocks. If you are single then there is no contest in that department. Wash U is the superior school in every sense of the word. But if you were smart enough to get in then I have no doubt that you will thrive at the U and be able to match into competitive specialties. I have a lot of friends who live in Minneapolis and every time we go out I ask myself why I never completed my secondary.

 

[nadaba]

From what you wrote, I feel you would be happier at the u. One thing to consider is that Wash U is pretty good with aid. So, the price difference might not be so great. I have a couple friends at Wash U. It is a competitive school. St. Louis is not the best city and Minneapolis rocks. If you are single then there is no contest in that department. Wash U is the superior school in every sense of the word. But if you were smart enough to get in then I have no doubt that you will thrive at the U and be able to match into competitive specialties. I have a lot of friends who live in Minneapolis and every time we go out I ask myself why I never completed my secondary.

Frozen tundra or sizzling steamy humid hell. Tough decisions...

I didn't mind St. Louis when I was there. I actually thought it was pleasant.

 

[MIAYO]

WashU

 

[todds]

IS tuition at UMinn is 38K? Are you sure thats not at typo? if so thats ridiculous. Staying close to family is very nice bonus especially if you can save some money staying at home.

Don't listen to premeds about this. Going to UMinn won't hold you back so to speak from competitive specialties. WashU doesn't have the pull that premeds think. It opens some more doors in terms of relocation for residency, but thats about it. If you wanna stay in the midwest, at Minnesota you'll be on equal footing. Oh yea, Minneapolis >> St Louis in terms of living despite the weather.

With that said, it depends on what you want and how much money you save. If it saves you > $100K to go Minnesota and you think youd stay in the midwest region long term, then go there. If the savings is not that big >50K, and you have your eyes set on going to the west coast or east coast, go to WashU.

 

[littlefaster]

In my opinion, your happiness is the most important thing to consider. You only live life once so you might as well enjoy the ride. Personally, I'd be happier at the U.

 

[Docbeme]

Money vs name has been a frequent topic of conversation here. I'm at Vanderbilt and I chose Vandy over other schools with scholarship money for many reasons. I believe many people who say "take the money and run" often have an agenda or don't have good options. Consider some of the following.

1. Reputation of the school - our graduates get top notch residencies even if you are not at the top of your class. Check and see the quality of the programs where most people match. Don't assume the specialty you are thinking about now will be the specialty you ultimately decide upon. Most people change their minds at least once and don't assume you will be No. 1 in your class or will be AOA.

Here are the match lists for Minnesota and Wash U. The differences are significant.

http://mstp.wustl.edu/Lists/Residency%20Match%20List/AllItems.aspx?&&View={C8B8D27E-B6DE-4748-9AD9-48990F1D67AB}

http://www.meded.umn.edu/residency/match/

Here is the match list from last year for Vanderbilt:
https://medschool.vanderbilt.edu/events/match-day/wheretheymatched2011


2. Don't assume that because we all study the same subjects, each school has identical presentations of the subject matter because that is not the case. Our most recent graduating class averaged 245 on their Step I scores. I think the way we are taught has something to do with our success on Step I year after year.

3. Make sure you and the school will be a good fit. At Vandy, for instance, the well being of medical students is a big deal, and while long hours are a given, we feel that the faculty goes out of their way to make life as tolerable as it can be.

4. Where is the school located and what is the community like? You will have a life outside of med school. Nashville is a great town - lots of good restaurants, great music of course, and a climate with cool but not bitter winters. A 20 minute ride to the airport. People are incredibly friendly.

Four years is a long time to be in one place. Good luck with whatever you decide.

 

[FearlessHyena]

Money vs name has been a frequent topic of conversation here. I'm at Vanderbilt and I chose Vandy over other schools with scholarship money for many reasons. I believe many people who say "take the money and run" often have an agenda or don't have good options. Consider some of the following.

1. Reputation of the school - our graduates get top notch residencies even if you are not at the top of your class. Check and see the quality of the programs where most people match. Don't assume the specialty you are thinking about now will be the specialty you ultimately decide upon. Most people change their minds at least once and don't assume you will be No. 1 in your class or will be AOA.

Here are the match lists for Minnesota and Wash U. The differences are significant.

http://mstp.wustl.edu/Lists/Residency%20Match%20List/AllItems.aspx?&&View={C8B8D27E-B6DE-4748-9AD9-48990F1D67AB}

http://www.meded.umn.edu/residency/match/

Here is the match list from last year for Vanderbilt:
https://medschool.vanderbilt.edu/events/match-day/wheretheymatched2011


2. Don't assume that because we all study the same subjects, each school has identical presentations of the subject matter because that is not the case. Our most recent graduating class averaged 245 on their Step I scores. I think the way we are taught has something to do with our success on Step I year after year.

3. Make sure you and the school will be a good fit. At Vandy, for instance, the well being of medical students is a big deal, and while long hours are a given, we feel that the faculty goes out of their way to make life as tolerable as it can be.

4. Where is the school located and what is the community like? You will have a life outside of med school. Nashville is a great town - lots of good restaurants, great music of course, and a climate with cool but not bitter winters. A 20 minute ride to the airport. People are incredibly friendly.

Four years is a long time to be in one place. Good luck with whatever you decide.

excellent post. I totally agree. The environment is huge and I can tell you that you will be less stre@sed at the U. But make no bones about it, Wash u is the superior school, albeit also a more stressful and competitive no matter what people on and say. Choose based on your environment and happiness vs prestige/reputation.

 

[nadaba]

2. Don't assume that because we all study the same subjects, each school has identical presentations of the subject matter because that is not the case. Our most recent graduating class averaged 245 on their Step I scores. I think the way we are taught has something to do with our success on Step I year after year.

So your class averaged higher on Step 1 than the average score for successful applicants for derm residencies?

 

[Docbeme]

So your class averaged higher on Step 1 than the average score for successful applicants for derm residencies?

Not my class, because I am an M1, but the class that graduated in 2011 had an AVERAGE score of 243 - made a slight mistake. That was told to us at second look weekend.

 

[flatearth22]

2. Don't assume that because we all study the same subjects, each school has identical presentations of the subject matter because that is not the case. Our most recent graduating class averaged 245 on their Step I scores. I think the way we are taught has something to do with our success on Step I year after year.

I'm surprised a Vandy med student would have such poor logical reasoning skills. Of course students at elite med schools have higher board scores but it has nothing to do with the teaching. Students there are, on average, smarter, harder working, and better at taking tests than students at mid-low tier ranked med schools. Premed students at Harvard, Stanford, MIT, etc. have higher MCAT scores than those at StateU. But it's not because they were taught some inside information in an innovative way...it's because premed students there were largely at the top of their class in HS and scored 2300+ on their SAT while those at StateU were largely not of that caliber.

Bottom line - don't pick a school because of their average board scores. Pretty much every med student and resident has said that your board scores are reflective of your own intelligence and hard work and not your school (just like the MCAT). Also, the teaching in preclinical years is pointless because none of the material is challenging....there's just a lot of it. You end up teaching yourself in the end.

Your other 3 points are valid though.

 

[Docbeme]

I'm surprised a Vandy med student would have such poor logical reasoning skills. Of course students at elite med schools have higher board scores but it has nothing to do with the teaching. Students there are, on average, smarter, harder working, and better at taking tests than students at mid-low tier ranked med schools. Premed students at Harvard, Stanford, MIT, etc. have higher MCAT scores than those at StateU. But it's not because they were taught some inside information in an innovative way...it's because premed students there were largely at the top of their class in HS and scored 2300+ on their SAT while those at StateU were largely not of that caliber.

Bottom line - don't pick a school because of their average board scores. Pretty much every med student and resident has said that your board scores are reflective of your own intelligence and hard work and not your school (just like the MCAT). Also, the teaching in preclinical years is pointless because none of the material is challenging....there's just a lot of it. You end up teaching yourself in the end.

Your other 3 points are valid though.

My logic is fine, thank you, but you are making a jump that is invalid.

Your point about better students from better universities attending highly ranked med schools is totally correct, not only with respect to MCAT's but also GPA's. It is sometimes difficult to obtain Step I info for many schools, but when it has been available from certain "elite" med schools, they are not always at the top of the pile. Vandy has had a reputation that goes back many years for typically being near the top for Step I scores, although I have no empirical data proving that point. Perhaps their teaching style yields good results.

Since it is MLK day and there is no class, I will do some research and see if find some good info, and if so I will post a link.
/edit
Here is the best I could do:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=11943608&postcount=343

 

[FearlessHyena]

My logic is fine, thank you, but you are making a jump that is invalid.

Your point about better students from better universities attending highly ranked med schools is totally correct, not only with respect to MCAT's but also GPA's. It is sometimes difficult to obtain Step I info for many schools, but when it has been available from certain "elite" med schools, they are not always at the top of the pile. Vandy has had a reputation that goes back many years for typically being near the top for Step I scores, although I have no empirical data proving that point. Perhaps their teaching style yields good results.

Since it is MLK day and there is no class, I will do some research and see if find some good info, and if so I will post a link.
/edit
Here is the best I could do:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=11943608&postcount=343

First of all, ignore FlatEarth22. He's a semi-troll. It's unbelievable to me that students don't realize that certain schools like Baylor, Northwestern, Vandy, etc have board scores close to 240 because they teach to the boards. Yes, they have intelligent student bodies, but they also have curriculum's which foster a better learning environment for boards. Wash U, for instance, does not teach to the boards and only gives students 4 weeks. Whereas, Vandy gives 7 weeks, UVA 9 weeks, and USC (keck) 10 weeks. I'm non-traditional and have two high school buddies who were part of the 2011 vandy graduating class. One got a 33 MCAT and the other a 34, and both got greater than 260. They harped on Vandy's amazing approach. Whereas, my buddy, who is a 4th year at Wash U, only got a 239 despite earning a 39 on the MCAT. The Wash U student is MUCH more intelligent than the aforementioned two.

Now, you'll say this is anecdotal and it is, but to only attribute high board scores to smart students is equally erroneous as not considering the school's didactics. Finally, look up the poster Jalby who has repeatedly argued that USC is a school that consistently produces some of the highest step one averages even though it is barely a top 40 school. Now, why could that be? maybe because SC teaches to the boards and not mindless detail and gives students 10 weeks to study. So, where you go to medical school has the potential to influence your score.

In closing, let's take NU and Chicago. UC is the higher ranked school and has the better match list and much fewer students. However, their board scores are mediocre. Whereas, NU, which teaches to the boards, hovers around 240 with twice as many students! How could this be? Aren't they equally talented? Well, one school is traditional and doesn't teach to the boards whereas the other is systems based and has exams and assignments modeled after the board. So, students should consider the curriculum.

Now, I agree that the biggest control is the talent of the student. However, I know for a fact that I wouldn't learn as well at a school like UChicago or Wash U compared to a systems based school. So, one should consider environment, cost, didactics, just like any other consideration. Finally, FlatEarth, your post was hilarious because the Vandy student's post was comparing it to upper-echelon schools, and not mediocre state school. As an aside, Harvard doesn't usually lead the country in board scores? Why? They attract top-notch students. They don't teach to the boards. Study time for the boards and didactics helps because it determines whether you have to spend your time memorizing worthless detail or learning the key concepts and how to integrate like you will have to do on test day. Don't be so quick to blow something off without first giving it some consideration. My long 2 cents.

 

[nadaba]

First of all, ignore FlatEarth22. He's a semi-troll. It's unbelievable to me that students don't realize that certain schools like Baylor, Northwestern, Vandy, etc have board scores close to 240 because they teach to the boards. Yes, they have intelligent student bodies, but they also have curriculum's which foster a better learning environment for boards. Wash U, for instance, does not teach to the boards and only gives students 4 weeks. Whereas, Vandy gives 7 weeks, UVA 9 weeks, and USC (keck) 10 weeks. I'm non-traditional and have two high school buddies who were part of the 2011 vandy graduating class. One got a 33 MCAT and the other a 34, and both got greater than 260. They harped on Vandy's amazing approach. Whereas, my buddy, who is a 4th year at Wash U, only got a 239 despite earning a 39 on the MCAT. The Wash U student is MUCH more intelligent than the aforementioned two.

Now, you'll say this is anecdotal and it is, but to only attribute high board scores to smart students is equally erroneous as not considering the school's didactics. Finally, look up the poster Jalby who has repeatedly argued that USC is a school that consistently produces some of the highest step one averages even though it is barely a top 40 school. Now, why could that be? maybe because SC teaches to the boards and not mindless detail and gives students 10 weeks to study. So, where you go to medical school has the potential to influence your score.

In closing, let's take NU and Chicago. UC is the higher ranked school and has the better match list and much fewer students. However, their board scores are mediocre. Whereas, NU, which teaches to the boards hovers around 240, with twice as many students! How could this be? Aren't they equally talented? Well, one school is traditional and doesn't teach to the boards whereas the other is systems based and has exams and assignments modeled after the board. So, students should consider the curriculum.

Now, I agree that the biggest control is the talent of the student. However, I know for a fact that I wouldn't learn as well at a school like UChicago or Wash U compared to a systems based school. So, one should consider environment, cost, didactics, just like any other consideration. Finally, FlatEarth, your post was hilarious because the Vandy student's post was comparing it to upper-echelon schools, and not mediocre state school. As an aside, Harvard doesn't usually leave the country in board scores? Why? They attract top-notch students. They don't teach to the boards. Study time for the boards and didactics helps because it determines whether you have to spend your time memorizing worthless detail or learning the key concepts and how to integrate like you will have to do on test day. Don't be so quick to blow something off without first giving it some consideration. My long 2 cents.

Still, I would be willing to put up my dog in a bet that Vandy didn't have a 243 average score. And she's a pretty cute yellow lab who likes to play fetch and cuddle.

 

[FearlessHyena]

Still, I would be willing to put up my dog in a bet that Vandy didn't have a 243 average score. And she's a pretty cute yellow lab who likes to play fetch and cuddle.

Nadaba, They did. I have two buddies who confirmed this. When this was posted last year on SDN, it caused a lot of dissension. Vandy, and a few other schools, give 7+ weeks for board time in addition to teaching the the boards. Northwestern hit 240 for the class of 2012. So, why is it unreasonable that Vandy hit 243. What the step One thread shows is that certain schools make it easier to obtain top-notch scores, compared to their peer institutions. It's a good thing you don't gamble.

 

[nadaba]

Nadaba, They did. I have two buddies who confirmed this. When this was posted last year on SDN, it caused a lot of dissension. Vandy, and a few other schools, give 7+ weeks for board time in addition to teaching the the boards. Northwestern hit 240 for the class of 2012. So, why is it unreasonable that Vandy hit 243. What the step One thread shows is that certain schools make it easier to obtain top-notch scores, compared to their peer institutions. It's a good thing you don't gamble.

Wouldn't they be super proud of the fact? Wouldn't they release an official score report? Has NW made it official and published the data on their website?

 

[FearlessHyena]

Wouldn't they be super proud of the fact? Wouldn't they release an official score report? Has NW made it official and published the data on their website?

That's a good point. I'm not sure how school's go about publishing such data. It is usually passed around via word of mouth at interviews. According to the step one compilation thread of various schools, Baylor hit 244 for the graduating class of 2011.

One last thing to consider, Nadaba, is all the test prep available. There is now UW, which is amazing for prep whereas before you only had Kaplan Q-bank. So, perhaps the test prep availability should be considered as well?

 

[nadaba]

That's a good point. I'm not sure how school's go about publishing such data. It is usually passed around via word of mouth at interviews. According to the step one compilation thread of various schools, Baylor hit 244 for the graduating class of 2011.

One last thing to consider, Nadaba, is all the test prep available. There is now UW, which is amazing for prep whereas before you only had Kaplan Q-bank. So, perhaps the test prep availability should be considered as well?

That's true. I guess my momma just taught me to be skeptical. It's pointless arguing about these scores when they are almost never confirmed by the schools themselves.

 

[Docbeme]

Still, I would be willing to put up my dog in a bet that Vandy didn't have a 243 average score. And she's a pretty cute yellow lab who likes to play fetch and cuddle.

The dog is gone, and I believe, but can't remember with certainty, that one of the dean's made the claim which was consistent with Vandy's history of excellent Step 1 scores. The information is more available than you suggest - did you look at my link in the prior post or are you just spouting off?

 

[nadaba]

The dog is gone, and I believe, but can't remember with certainty, that one of the dean's made the claim which was consistent with Vandy's history of excellent Step 1 scores. The information is more available than you suggest - did you look at my link in the prior post or are you just spouting off?

Uh, how do you think that an SDN post proves your point? I could go edit those numbers right now if I wanted to. Something you thought you might have heard a dean say once doesn't count either.

Edit: although looking at the SDN reported numbers for all schools, it does look like there has been a steady rise recently. So maybe a 243 average might not be completely out of the question. I'm still inclined not to believe it unless the school officially says so.

 

[Docbeme]

Uh, how do you think that an SDN post proves your point? I could go edit those numbers right now if I wanted to. Something you thought you might have heard a dean say once doesn't count either.

Edit: although looking at the SDN reported numbers for all schools, it does look like there has been a steady rise recently. So maybe a 243 average might not be completely out of the question. I'm still inclined not to believe it unless the school officially says so.

I was there at second look weekend with probably another hundred people holding Vanderbilt acceptances when the dean told us the scores. Do you think he would lie? Someone else heard a recitation of similar scores during his interview. A friend of mine, a couple of years ahead of me had a complete breakdown of his school's scores posted on the med school's website. I don't give a crap what you believe. Because you don't think something is true, doesn't make it fact.

 

[indonacious]

From what I have read, sometimes schools have been known to manipulate the means through which they collect and report such data. Matched graduates only, self-report, etc.

 

[theWUbear]

I found this conversation on STEP score averages fascinating

 

[Bro Dude]

This is a textbook example of thread derailment. Nicely done, folks.

 

[TheMightySmiter]

I was there at second look weekend with probably another hundred people holding Vanderbilt acceptances when the dean told us the scores. Do you think he would lie? Someone else heard a recitation of similar scores during his interview. A friend of mine, a couple of years ahead of me had a complete breakdown of his school's scores posted on the med school's website. I don't give a crap what you believe. Because you don't think something is true, doesn't make it fact.

To the bolded? Um, yes. Definitely. As if the dean were some god of ethics who would never stretch the truth so that people would like his med school better.

I'm aware this thread is five months old.

 

[Nymphicus]

Not to derail or take sides but I was also present when the Dean spoke about Vanderbilt's >240 average for the previous class.

 

[Nymphicus]

I'm aware this thread is five months old.

And somehow we both posted at the same time!

(STALKER)

 

[theWUbear]

Uh, how do you think that an SDN post proves your point? I could go edit those numbers right now if I wanted to. Something you thought you might have heard a dean say once doesn't count either.

Edit: although looking at the SDN reported numbers for all schools, it does look like there has been a steady rise recently. So maybe a 243 average might not be completely out of the question. I'm still inclined not to believe it unless the school officially says so.

I was there at second look weekend with probably another hundred people holding Vanderbilt acceptances when the dean told us the scores. Do you think he would lie? Someone else heard a recitation of similar scores during his interview. A friend of mine, a couple of years ahead of me had a complete breakdown of his school's scores posted on the med school's website. I don't give a crap what you believe. Because you don't think something is true, doesn't make it fact.

To the bolded? Um, yes. Definitely. As if the dean were some god of ethics who would never stretch the truth so that people would like his med school better.

I'm aware this thread is five months old.

I think you all would agree with each other if everyone got on the same page semantically:

• No, a well-reputed physician and medical school faculty member would not outright "lie about" (i.e. make up) a STEP 1 score
• A leader of admissions for a school could possibly analyze the numbers in a mannar beneficial to his/her school. One would hope that is not the case, and it is nice to give them the benefit of the doubt, but:
• Without any transparency (i.e. publication), one can take that statistic with a grain of salt

 

[drizzt3117]

USC publishes their step 1 scores in their "hsc weekly" publication; I think their last class was in the mid 230s.