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I'm trying to decide between WSU and MSU's CHM. I have NO IDEA which one to choose. I'd appreciate any and all ideas.
Thanks!
Thanks!
I listened to an M.D. from MSUCHM speak a year ago. He made a lot of humorous comments about Michigan schools, basically played on getting really intense clinical/procedural training at Wayne being in Detroit, and MSU not measuring up to that or the academics of U Mich. Keep in mind, his style was self-deprecating.euphony00 said:I'm trying to decide between WSU and MSU's CHM. I have NO IDEA which one to choose. I'd appreciate any and all ideas.
Thanks!
AStudent said:I've also been to accepted to Wayne State and I cancelled my MSU interview after finding out. I go to MSU undergrad currently and there's no question that I would go to Wayne in a heartbeat over MSU.
Reasons:
1) MSU is packing up shop and moving to Grand Rapids in 2 years
2) MSU does rotations all over the state, even the UP
3) CAPA........trust me, you don't want to know what it is.
lon-capa.msu.edu
~cringes~
medic170 said:I chose MSU hands down. Great reputation, great rotations, early clinical experience, non-competitive environment with P/F grading, not living in the middle of a big city (I love East Lansing), and PBL second year are some of the reasons.
Also:
1) The Grand Rapids expansion will not affect the class of 2009 in ANY way
2) You only do UP rotations if you do the rural physician program, otherwise, you can choose between Lansing, Kalamazoo, Grand Rapids, Flint, or Saginaw.
3) Yes, CAPA sucks big time-I didn't know med students used it-that sucks
Bottom line though, they are both great schools, and I do not think one is really "better" than the other, it is more of which is more comfortable for YOU.
ddmoore54 said:Basically, the first 2 years you are going to learn pretty much the same stuff no matter where you are. Everyone studies from the same books, etc. The real difference comes in the clinical years. Just look at the difference in the hospitals the schools do rotations in. Where would you go for tertiary care? Certainly not Bronson, Borgess, Genesis, or any of the other MSU related programs; and those are by far the best ones they have. Outside of the UofM Hospital, Wayne students rotate through the biggest and best hospitals in the state, and some of the best in the country.
Henry Ford, Beaumont, Harper University, Detroit Receiving, Children's, VA, St. John's, Oakwood, Sinai-Grace, Hutzel Womens, and the list goes on and on....
MSU definitely gets recongition among the public because of its sports, but so does Princeton Med School (it doesnt exist). Within the medical community MSU is hardly a blip on the map, if anything someone may ask you if you are Osteopathic. With the Osteo school expanding its enrollment, that confusion is just going to get worse. Do you want your program to be the one in the shadow??? Every doctor knows about Wayne and the clinical experience of its graduates. The Med school is especially known for trauma and womens health, in fact it is ranked #1 in NIH funding for Ob/Gyn, and we recently had a JAMA article from that department.
Now, I am not one of those people who thinks their school is the best in the country, because that is certainly not the case. But, I can tell you with much confidence that it will be easier to go farther in medicine (except primary care...maybe) if you are a Wayne grad... rather than CHM.
medic170 said:OUCH!!!!!!
medic170 said:Wow, good thing I did not decide on the DO school here, then I would really be screwed, eh?
Soleil9 said:Don't worry Medic, CHM's a great school, and you'll get a great education there. PBL and a small class size are some of its strengths that it sounds like you are excited to take advantage of! Another pro for CHM is that they have a mentor program, where 5 or 6 students are paired with a Doctor. They shadow that doctor, use them as an advisor/mentor and have small group classes with them. I've heard that mentees have been invited over for dinner at their mentor's houses. I know personally a doc who is a mentor and she's a lovely person and I would LOVE to have her as a mentor! This is something that I doubt Wayne could provide, with such a large class and all.
So, yes. CHM is a great school.... but so is Wayne. They each have their pros and cons.
medic170 said:OUCH!!!!!!
Oh, BTW, Sparrow is a level 1 trauma center that is rated among the nations top 100 hospitals, but whose counting.
I am very depressed that my career is going to be held back by the fact that I chose MSU-CHM. Wow, good thing I did not decide on the DO school here, then I would really be screwed, eh? Do you really think MSU is THAT crappy as to say it is in the shadows of most other medical schools, hardly a blip on the map .
Soleil9 said:Sorry, Medic, I also have to mention, COM is ranked higher than CHM in primary care, the specialty both schools are geared towards. So, no, you wouldn't be "screwed" by going to COM. When CHM moves to Grand Rapids all this confusion/rivalry will be resolved. It's such a weird environment, having 2 schools that teach the same discipline on one campus. It breeds rivalry, misunderstandings and prejudice, such as your comment above. I just wanted to clear this up for those who are interested.
ddmoore54 said:In regards to Sparrow being a Level 1, big deal, so are most of the hospitals I listed. Level 1 pertains to trauma, and I really don't think Sparrow can hold a candle to Receiving, Grace, or Beaumont in that catagory.
.
automaton said:ummm if you guys want to crap on each others schools please leave out embarrassing things like having three digits after the word "top" or mentioning one jama publication as if it's a nobel prize.
AStudent said:-Both schools are in the State of Michigan
-Both schools have large enrollments
-Both schools colors are green and white
-Both are public, "state" schools
-Both have human mascots of the same type (Warrior, Spartan).
-Both have ugly buildings that need renovation
-Parking is expensive and the parking nazis are bad in both cities
-Both have access to Level 1 trauma centers
-Both schools are just as much alike as not....
-Except for CAPA
fun8stuff said:Is there any MSUCHM'ers on here that would like to comment on these comments? I have a hard time with this because the people that I know at Wayne all tell me not to go there, while the people at MSUCHM say they like it and to go where I think I will fit in best. Although, I only know a handful of people at both schools.
Does anyone know the board schools for each school?
Flobber said:Other than that, all you have to ask yourself is: do you really want to cheer for a team who's mascot is named Sparty?
Soleil9 said:Good job AStudent!
Ok, so now to list some things that are different:
Wayne: Dissection CHM: Prosection
Wayne: 250 ppl. per class CHM: most 1st year classes: 300+ (includes COM students) although second year (without COM students) it'll be about 100.
Wayne: Lecture based 2nd year CHM: PBL second year
Wayne: classes all in one building (Scott Hall) or in hospitals directly adjacent to Scott Hall. Parking also adjacent to classes CHM: parking is 10-15 minute walk to Conrad Hall, where most first year classes will be held. You have to cross an open field, parking lot and train tracks (no protection from wind in the winter, VERY cold). After class, its back over to Radiology building (where most CHM resources: lounge, study areas, etc. reside.) Anatomy lab is also a 10-15 minute walk from parking lot/Radiology. My point is that resources are not conveniently located at MSU.
Wayne Library directly adjacent to Scott Hall CHM Umm... There isn't a medical library...
Wayne: complete cafeteria in Scott Hall, plus many food choices in adjacent hospitals. CHM: Best you get is a glorified snack shop.
These are some of the factors that I considered when choosing a school. I know some of them seem superficial, like the walking to class thing. But really, what it comes down to is that Wayne just seems more organized with its student resources. A complete library, anatomy lab, food resources, study areas, lecture halls, huge hospitals, all on one block? Yeah, I think Wayne wins there! A much better atmosphere for me to learn, IMHO.
I may add more to this post later, as I had to make the same descision that the OP did, not more than a month ago. So I know how difficult it can be. Good luck to you.
Soleil
Soleil9 said:Good job AStudent!
Ok, so now to list some things that are different:
Wayne: Dissection CHM: Prosection
Wayne: 250 ppl. per class CHM: most 1st year classes: 300+ (includes COM students) although second year (without COM students) it'll be about 100.
Wayne: Lecture based 2nd year CHM: PBL second year
Wayne: classes all in one building (Scott Hall) or in hospitals directly adjacent to Scott Hall. Parking also adjacent to classes CHM: parking is 10-15 minute walk to Conrad Hall, where most first year classes will be held. You have to cross an open field, parking lot and train tracks (no protection from wind in the winter, VERY cold). After class, its back over to Radiology building (where most CHM resources: lounge, study areas, etc. reside.) Anatomy lab is also a 10-15 minute walk from parking lot/Radiology. My point is that resources are not conveniently located at MSU.
Wayne Library directly adjacent to Scott Hall CHM Umm... There isn't a medical library...
Wayne: complete cafeteria in Scott Hall, plus many food choices in adjacent hospitals. CHM: Best you get is a glorified snack shop.
These are some of the factors that I considered when choosing a school. I know some of them seem superficial, like the walking to class thing. But really, what it comes down to is that Wayne just seems more organized with its student resources. A complete library, anatomy lab, food resources, study areas, lecture halls, huge hospitals, all on one block? Yeah, I think Wayne wins there! A much better atmosphere for me to learn, IMHO.
I may add more to this post later, as I had to make the same descision that the OP did, not more than a month ago. So I know how difficult it can be. Good luck to you.
Soleil
4ruralhealth said:First, I would like to say that regardless of the reputation or clinical focus of any school the single greatest variable in determining the quality of your medical education is YOU. I am a first year medical student that was fortunate enough to be able to choose between several great schools. I am very pleased with my choice to attend MSU CHM. There are many similarities between Wayne State and CHM but there are clearly large differences (as you have read on this thread).
Choosing a medical school depends partially upon what your long term goals and interests are and finding a program that best fits, but not entirely. Please do not choose a school based on the quality of the cafeteria food or the layout of the buildings as I really dont see how they will have a direct or lasting affect on your ability to learn. There are definite advantages and disadvantages of prosection vs dissection. In my opinion there is not a strong dependence or need for a huge medical library at the early part of your medical career as much of the learning is focused on basic concepts you can receive from the required text (extensive research is an exception).
I choose CHM because of its outstanding reputation and dedication to training competent and compassionate primary care physicians. Certainly, you dont have to limit yourself to primary care but that is the strength of CHM. The curriculum is progressive, combining a variety of learning techniques in an environment that is friendly and positive. The faculty is for the most part, excellent. Are there a few minor things I would change? Sure, but good luck finding a perfect program. Bottom line is CHM provides for me absolutely everything I need to become the best physician I can be (Wayne State would do the same for others I am sure).
Write down all the pros and cons of each program and ask yourself where would I most likely flourish and be provided with the most opportunity based on my interests. Dont convince yourself that you have to be in a larger clinical setting to learn the basic clinical concepts that medical students learn! Your residency is obviously different but you wont be doing heart transplants in your third and fourth years! Often times the personal attention and personal contacts you will receive in smaller clinical settings is much greater and you can always rotate elsewhere if your training site doesnt provide you enough exposure in a certain area of interest.
With that said, I believe the majority of your success as a student will be based on your ability to apply yourself, regardless of the academic/clinical setting. CAPA and other small details will not be the reason you do or do not land a top notch residency, believe me. I find it very unfortunate that some students from Wayne State have chosen to not focus on the attributes of their school, but rather the perceived or actual shortfalls of CHM. Be weary of programs or students that find fault in others, as it is often indicates their own dissatisfactions. Good Luck!
lotanna said:@Soleil, get ur facts right, Conrad Hall? huh?
Soleil9 said:Thank you for sharing your insights into CHM.
I have been informed by MSU-COM that due to the increased class size and scheduling conflicts, they will be using Conrad Hall for first year classes. I assume that they will still be combining the Biochem/ PSL classes, and thus the CHM students will be using Conrad for those classes. If you have heard anything different in this area, I stand corrected, as I have only heard this from the COM side of things.
Soleil9 said:Sorry, Medic, I also have to mention, COM is ranked higher than CHM in primary care, the specialty both schools are geared towards. So, no, you wouldn't be "screwed" by going to COM. When CHM moves to Grand Rapids all this confusion/rivalry will be resolved. It's such a weird environment, having 2 schools that teach the same discipline on one campus. It breeds rivalry, misunderstandings and prejudice, such as your comment above. I just wanted to clear this up for those who are interested.
Hosehead said:CHM is not moving to Grand Rapids....
And to the original poster, I urge you to not use SDN in your decision on which medical school you go to. Many of the posts I have read are biased, inaccurate and/or written in an inflammatory method. Good luck deciding!
Sancho said:Just to give you a slightly different perspective about MSU -I'm a 1st yr, and hate primary care, lon-capa, and sparrow's not really getting my nuts off either...
but you know what? I couldn't give a nun's a$$ about these issues because they have no bearing on my day to day reality-what actually influences the quality of a med student's life? the curriculum, or...., e.g. the proximity of decent bars and females? (including the oh so hot Jenny Granholm) As far as the future goes, yeah, if you want to cruise through here, you're not getting derm at mgh based on the school's prestige factor-here and 80 other schools-but you can definitely make a name for yourself if that's your thing - and completely chart your own path. It can be done- hey I'm getting a 1st author MRI study on the ol' CV next month, and I'm a slacker jackass- and almost everyone I know has taken advantage of the cornucopia of clinical volunteer ops in lansing and overseas. Last night I was putting some back with the newly matched 4th years, some had 250-260 boards and were going into competitive specialties at high falootin hospitals-but whatever.
Bottom line is, state is a fun place with a close knit class of really cool, interesting, Diverse, laid back people
I chose it over Georgetown and totally do not regret it, and not just because of the money-seriously, I spent a year out there and I won't knock it, but state is just like a good home cooked meal with all the fixin's-lots of gravy baby.
Soleil9 said:Thank you for sharing your insights into CHM.
I have been informed by MSU-COM that due to the increased class size and scheduling conflicts, they will be using Conrad Hall for first year classes. I assume that they will still be combining the Biochem/ PSL classes, and thus the CHM students will be using Conrad for those classes. If you have heard anything different in this area, I stand corrected, as I have only heard this from the COM side of things.
medic170 said:Soleil. I owe you an apology. I was on the MSU registration web site looking at the times that we will be in class this fall, and I'll be damned if some of those classes were not indeed in Conrad. You were right, and this sucks!!!!
BMB 514 Medical Biochemistry Pass-No Grade (P-N) System
001 3 MTuWThF 9:00a 9:50a 102 Conrad Hall - 0 275 439
medic170 said:Soleil. I owe you an apology. I was on the MSU registration web site looking at the times that we will be in class this fall, and I'll be damned if some of those classes were not indeed in Conrad. You were right, and this sucks!!!!