Wayne State vs Rosalind Franklin

[CdnHopeful]

I realize there was an older one, but that was from 2006.

I just want to see what people think is a better school. I know Wayne is in Detroit (might be shady), but Rosalind isn't exactly in the middle of Chicago (but rather 30 min outside).

I know cost would be a big factor (but let's not pay attention to that right now)

I'm trying to decide based on match lists, reputation, research experience etc.

Most importantly, where would you go if you were accepted in to both??

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[Howisbabbyformd]

I realize there was an older one, but that was from 2006.

I just want to see what people think is a better school. I know Wayne is in Detroit (might be shady), but Rosalind isn't exactly in the middle of Chicago (but rather 30 min outside).

I know cost would be a big factor (but let's not pay attention to that right now)

I'm trying to decide based on match lists, reputation, research experience etc.

Most importantly, where would you go if you were accepted in to both??

I think Wayne State is better in terms of everything you've listed. I will qualify my response by saying that I am a Michigan resident and am extremely biased, but I would definitely pick Wayne State over Rosalind Franklin.

 

[ruiner]

I would pick Wayne in an instant. Again a MI resident here, but I really wanted to go to school in Chicago. Before a RF superfan jumps in and gets offended, I will admit that maybe this was a bad reason, but I didn't even apply to RF because of the opinions of the school/students given to me by some of the doctors I had shadowed. Wayne has 100+ years experience and really location is not that bad....there are much worse parts of Detroit.

 

[KeyzerSoze]

I would pick Wayne in an instant. Again a MI resident here, but I really wanted to go to school in Chicago. Before a RF superfan jumps in and gets offended, I will admit that maybe this was a bad reason, but I didn't even apply to RF because of the opinions of the school/students given to me by some of the doctors I had shadowed. Wayne has 100+ years experience and really location is not that bad....there are much worse parts of Detroit.

Hey, CMS superfan here. Our school is also 100 years old.

OP, there's probably not much of a difference between the schools, except the extra 16K/year you'd be paying as an out of state student at Wayne State. ruiner, why the heck would you have considered going to CMS when our tuition is 14K more than the WS in-state tuition?

CMS: 43K
WS OOS: 59K
WS IS: 29K

 

[JJMrK]

Hey, CMS superfan here. Our school is also 100 years old.

OP, there's probably not much of a difference between the schools, except the extra 16K/year you'd be paying as an out of state student at Wayne State. ruiner, why the heck would you have considered going to CMS when our tuition is 14K more than the WS in-state tuition?

CMS: 43K
WS OOS: 59K
WS IS: 29K

I wouldn't even consider paying that much in tuition. IMO: If you're OOS at both, go to Rosalind. If you qualify for IS tuition at Wayne, go there.

 

[KeyzerSoze]

I wouldn't even consider paying that much in tuition. IMO: If you're OOS at both, go to Rosalind. If you qualify for IS tuition at Wayne, go there.

BTW, after I posted that I noticed that the OP didn't want to discuss cost, so I dunno. I find it a bit amusing that people here would pick Wayne State "in an instant", "definitely". It's Wayne State, not Harvard. You would probably be hard-pressed to find any metric in which it was significantly better or worse than CMS. For most people, money would be the deciding factor, and if you ignore that, most likely it would be something idiosyncratic to a specific applicant which would be quite hard for people here to evaluate.

 

[ruiner]

Look dude you're exactly the person I was talking about because you did the same thing last time this came up. To answer your question, I would consider a more expensive school if it were in a location I really wanted to live/learn in, i.e. Chicagoland like I said, especially considering I am attending med school on HPSP. Beyond that I said explicitly why I would pick Wayne in an instant but if you want it spelled out more clearly.... RF has a bad reputation up here and I'm sure this is not the only area. Wayne, while I agree is not Harvard, still is a very well regarded research university with an endowment approaching 900 million. Considering the OP did mention research I would say that is a significant advantage....

And not that this should effect anyones opinion of either school, but because you tried making a point of it, CMS actually isn't 100 years old yet.

 

[KeyzerSoze]

And not that this should effect anyones opinion of either school, but because you tried making a point of it, CMS actually isn't 100 years old yet.

Ok, 98.

 

[KeyzerSoze]

RF has a bad reputation up here and I'm sure this is not the only area.

Yes, based on your vast experience.

 

[ruiner]

Yes, based on your vast experience.

 

[DrBB]

You premeds think you know everything. Wayne State is not an amazing school. Neither is RFUMS. Medical School is what you make of it - the residency/field you go into will be determined by mostly your board scores, 3rd year grades, and recommendations.

If you are out of state at both, I would absolutely choose RFUMS. You will be going to a good school, saving money, and will get great experience while rotating throughout various hospitals throughout Chicago. Not to mention that Chicago is a much nicer city than Detroit. Sorry but there's no argument there.

 

[msk86]

I'm an IL resident but I got accepted to both Wayne and CMS (in different years...not sure if that makes a difference. Ended up going to CMS). If we're not talking financials, there's really not that much separating them. Wayne state definitely had a lot more research opportunities, but unless you're dead set on a specialty that requires it that's not going to make or break your med school experience. Both schools aren't exactly the top of the totem poll, but you're going to get whatever you put into it. I can't say the same for Wayne, but I know plenty of M4s that got their top choice for residency.

 

[ay8205]

I am a michigan resident and went to Wayne for my undergrad. I was not accepted into medschool last year so I am currently doing the BMS program at Rosalind so I know a lot about both schools and the area where they are located here are the facts.

Safety
Detroit has a bad reputation but I went to school there for 3 years and never had a problem. I feel that Wayne's campus is very safe, granted things still happen. Rosalind on the other hand is a lot safer but I would not rule out Wayne on that account.

Research
Both schools have active research programs and if you want a research opportunity you will be able to get it at each institution. Wayne however does have more funding and is a research institute.

Cost
If you live in Michigan Wayne is going to be way cheaper. The cost of living in Detroit is a lot less then in Chicago (or North Chicago). Out of staters will pay more to attend Wayne.

Environment
Wayne seems to be a more competitive atmosphere if you do not like that type of enviroment Wayne is not the place for you. At Rosalind you get what you earn grade wise. It is my understanding (correct me if I am wrong) this is not the case at Wayne where the grades are more based off a bell curve. Wayne does have more going on. There is more to do in the city and the cities around Detroit than there is to do around North Chicago (your first two years at Rosalind are not in the city they are about 30 miles out of the city).

Residency and Board Scores
From what I know about 50% of students at Wayne get their top choice for residency and almost everyone gets their 2nd choice. At RFU I believe more people get their 1st choice and match at pretty decent programs. I do not have any idea how Wayne students do on the boards but I know the last class at RFU to take the boards placed in the top 20th %.

Overall the two schools are almost equal and you will get a great education at either school. What you have to decide is what type of environment is for you.

 

[Eurekaa]

It may be important to consider the style of teaching. RFU seems to follow a more standard lecture style, while at WSU there's a lot of prerecorded lectures. Students apparently don't even go to class, since they can watch lectures from home. That is not a style I would enjoy at all, so I would prefer RFU on that note.

Can anyone comment on the clinical rotations for the schools? Judging by demographics, in Detroit you will be exposed primarily to a poor black patient population, while in Chicago the diversity increases greatly.

 

[JoeCool]

It may be important to consider the style of teaching. RFU seems to follow a more standard lecture style, while at WSU there's a lot of prerecorded lectures.

MS2 at Wayne here.

Not sure what you mean by "prerecorded" but ALL of our lectures are given live. They're accessible online almost as soon as the lecture is over, in video and mp3 formats. Many people do attend class, if that's your thing, and there are plenty of required small group and clinical sessions so you don't end up a recluse.

Can anyone comment on the clinical rotations for the schools?

3rd year we can do our rotations at Detroit Receiving, Henry Ford, the VA, Harper, Beaumont in Royal Oak, St John near Grosse Pointe, St Joseph in Ann arbor, Oakwood in Dearborn (i think?), Sinai, Providence... there might be more I'm forgetting. It's not just the "poor black patient population."

Plus there are tons of opportunities from the get-go of MS1; I've been volunteering at a clinic with a large Hispanic population over in SW Detroit since I got here, where they taught me to do blood draws, vitals, really whatever I was willing to learn. Excellent clinical opportunities here at Wayne.

Oh and the brand new library and medical commons are very nice.

 

[msk86]

It's the same at RFU. The lectures are given live and recorded so you can go back and watch them later. I think that's pretty standard.

 

[msk86]

MS2 at Wayne here.

Oh and the brand new library and medical commons are very nice.

Very true. If you guys haven't been to RFU, you're not likely to see pictures of the inside because the library is crap and there's really not much going on at the school. It's probably the least aesthetically pleasing med school I've ever seen.

 

[musafirah]

i just want to say that i love it when people point out "recorded lectures" as a BAD THING when it comes to wayne state. LOL. i mean you can still go to the lectures if you want.. and if you don't feel like getting up at 7AM, no problem there either. how is that a negative thing?? clearly there's sooooo much interaction going on during a lecture that would be missed out on if you choose wayne state.

 

[KeyzerSoze]

Very true. If you guys haven't been to RFU, you're not likely to see pictures of the inside because the library is crap and there's really not much going on at the school. It's probably the least aesthetically pleasing med school I've ever seen.

Ha, it is pretty bad, but obviously you didn't interview at UIC Peoria.

The newer part of the RFU building isn't awful, but the old part is kind of 1980's office building utilitarian.

 

[DrBB]

Very true. If you guys haven't been to RFU, you're not likely to see pictures of the inside because the library is crap and there's really not much going on at the school. It's probably the least aesthetically pleasing med school I've ever seen.

I personally thought RFU was one of the nicest med schools I saw when I was on the interview circuit (I interviewed at 6 schools). The student union is pretty sweet, has a brand new flat screen TV there to watch on your breaks (I personally havent had much time to watch it, but its there.)

The anatomy labs are definitely the best that I saw on my interview circuit - each cadaver has a computer hanging above it where you can watch dissection videos and read about what you need to be doing.

What else...oh, the cafeteria is pretty decent. Idk, I definitely don't think it was one of the the least aesthetically pleasing med schools I saw. In fact, the facilities was one of the reasons I chose RFUMS over the other school that accepted me.

 

[womp]

For the love of god, RFU is not in Chicago, and it's not a short drive (30 min) away from Chicago. RFU is 10 miles from the Wisconsin border, which is halfway to Milwaukee. The route from North Chicago to Chicago is congested and slow as hell so you should expect to double the travel time that Google Maps gives you. From RFU, you'll get to Milwaukee faster than getting to Lincoln Park in Chicago.

 

[4goneconclusion]

Hey, great idea for the thread as these are the two schools that seem to be accepting the greatest number of Canadians.

Wrt Wayne State, when you do factor in an extra 20k per year, that's an extra 80k of debt. Is there ANYTHING that can warrant such a difference?

I go off for my Wayne State interview soon and have an RFUMS acceptance. I'm just wondering if anyone can shed any more light on the issue.

I realize that these are both not top-tier schools. But are they really that bad? Is there a drastic difference in the quality of education between Wayne State and Georgetown? Since we have so few schools in Canada, they're all on a pretty even playing field.

For Canadians, there's probably only about 20 schools that we have a decent shot at and these two schools seem to be the frendliest. I know Canadians with a 3.9/35 who have been rejected from the first few Canadian interviews that have been handed out and have no American invites either. It's tough.

 

[Howisbabbyformd]

I realize that these are both not top-tier schools. But are they really that bad? Is there a drastic difference in the quality of education between Wayne State and Georgetown? Since we have so few schools in Canada, they're all on a pretty even playing field.

No, they're not bad at all. I would think the quality of the education you'll get at any of the MD schools is going to be pretty much the same whether it's Harvard, RFUMS, or Wayne State. All schools produce excellent physicians and the name recognition you get from Harvard vs. RFUMS/Wayne State is something like the 7th most important factor in your residency placement. As previous posters have said, you get out of medical school what you put into it no matter where you go. You're not automatically going to be a better physician just because you went to a medical school that is "top tier."

 

[Eurekaa]

Hmmm ok, so would student life be generally more interesting at WSU? I'm holding an acceptance at both schools, and my impression at RFU was that it's a humble place with a small community feel. WSU is of course much bigger, but being in Detroit kinda intimidates me. I saw so many abandoned apartments, grafitti/garbage littered streets around the university, so I'm not sure if that's for me.

 

[msk86]

Hmmm ok, so would student life be generally more interesting at WSU? I'm holding an acceptance at both schools, and my impression at RFU was that it's a humble place with a small community feel. WSU is of course much bigger, but being in Detroit kinda intimidates me. I saw so many abandoned apartments, grafitti/garbage littered streets around the university, so I'm not sure if that's for me.

I was born and raised in Chicago, so I'm kind of biased when I say that Detroit is a dump. However, you have to realize that there's no hospital attached to RFU. When you're doing rotations, you're going to be doing them in Chicago hospitals....and we're not talking U of C and Northwestern. I mean Cook County. There are some nicer hospitals that participate in rotations like Lutheran General, but for the most part I'd say the whole urban filth thing applies to RFU as well (just not in your first two years).

 

[herewego]

I was born and raised in Chicago, so I'm kind of biased when I say that Detroit is a dump. However, you have to realize that there's no hospital attached to RFU. When you're doing rotations, you're going to be doing them in Chicago hospitals....and we're not talking U of C and Northwestern. I mean Cook County. There are some nicer hospitals that participate in rotations like Lutheran General, but for the most part I'd say the whole urban filth thing applies to RFU as well (just not in your first two years).

I'm from Chicago and I have the opposite opinion... I wouldn't want to do rotations at U of C or Northwestern...and Cook would be my first choice.

Anyone can do well at a hospital like NW...At places like Cook, you'll see many more serious cases, and it'll prepare you much better to deal with the problems in urban areas.

 

[JJMrK]

I'm from Chicago and I have the opposite opinion... I wouldn't want to do rotations at U of C or Northwestern...and Cook would be my first choice.

Anyone can do well at a hospital like NW...At places like Cook, you'll see many more serious cases, and it'll prepare you much better to deal with the problems in urban areas.

TBH, you could probably argue this the other way too: "Since NW and UoC are big names, they get complex, serious cases."

 

[msk86]

I'm from Chicago and I have the opposite opinion... I wouldn't want to do rotations at U of C or Northwestern...and Cook would be my first choice.

Anyone can do well at a hospital like NW...At places like Cook, you'll see many more serious cases, and it'll prepare you much better to deal with the problems in urban areas.

Unless you're planning on doing something like EM for an urban hospital, nobody really looks forward to these places. I agree that it's easy to become complacent at some of the top hospitals (and from the docs I've talked to so far they say that the worst residents they've ever had have come from said hospitals for that very reason), they are very nice hospitals.

 

[4goneconclusion]

Does anyone else have any points for deciding between the two?

 

[babi]

I am an MSIII at cms at the moment. I do not know much about Wayne state but I can comment on our school. You will get anything you need to become an excellent physician, the rest is up to you. The school has a reputation for doing well on boards and matching is impressive. Our class have rocked step 1 (and I mean Rocked it big time) and our graduates of recent years have matched into excellent programs in all specialties. On third year, we rotate in hospitals across chicago and get to see and do almost anything you can possibly imagine. Cook county hospital, for example, has pathologies you do not see in any other hospital in the city. In fact NU residents and OofC residents do many of their rotations in hospitals like cook and sinai for that reason precisely. You will learn tons as long as you stay proactive in your learning and this holds for any med school you are going to attend. Most of our students live on campus during first and second year and then move to the city for the clinical years. Many will tell you that being in North chicago for the first two years has benefited them as they could focus on studying without too many distractions. You have much more time to enjoy life during clinical years, so most of my classmates are now having a blast living downtown. I hope this helps a little and good luck. Do not forget to enjoy it, because it is pretty AWESOME!

 

[4goneconclusion]

Thanks so much babi.

I've debated the pros and cons and have it boiled down to:

Wayne State
Pros
-awesome hospital, the DMC, they actually talked about it in one of the Canadian schools that I interviewed at
-close to home

Cons
-cost of tuition
-crappy city for all 4 years

RFUMS
Pros
-price, match list is comparable to Wayne State so I don't see justification for 15k more tuition
-living in an amazing city for the last 2 years of med school
-class size, atmosphere seemed a bit more welcoming

Cons
-saying that I go to school in Chicago and having to say no to the obvious first questions "UofC? Northwestern?". Almost feels like I have to prove myself more because of all the other "better" schools in the area.
-living in North Chicago for the first 2 years isn't really like living in Chicago
-no specific teaching hospital that belongs to RFUMS
-debate about the BMS dynamic within the class

Am I missing anything guys? If anything offends you in my list, please disregard it, I'm trying to be brutally honest. The first con for RFUMS is largely a result of perception and I know that shouldn't matter, but I'm worried that if I apply for residency in Canada instead of America, perception may matter? Is that misguided?

Based on that list of pros/cons, I think I'm leaning towards RFUMS. I was really impressed by the students, the doctor that I interviewed with, and Chicago really won me over.

 

[MiniMoo]

Cons
-saying that I go to school in Chicago and having to say no to the obvious first questions "UofC? Northwestern?". Almost feels like I have to prove myself more because of all the other "better" schools in the area.

If you list this as a con for RFU, I think it would be a con for Wayne as well? I don't know if it's just because I live on the west coast, but I had never even heard of Wayne State before applying to medical schools. I didn't even know there was a school in Detroit.

 

[4goneconclusion]

If you list this as a con for RFU, I think it would be a con for Wayne as well? I don't know if it's just because I live on the west coast, but I had never even heard of Wayne State before applying to medical schools. I didn't even know there was a school in Detroit.

Hm. I suppose Wayne State is more known in Ontario. With that said, there's only one med school in Detroit and it's a big one. In Chicago and its immediate area, it feels like there are so many more!

 

[canada1311]

Hm. I suppose Wayne State is more known in Ontario. With that said, there's only one med school in Detroit and it's a big one. In Chicago and its immediate area, it feels like there are so many more!

Hey 4goneconclusion, I thought as a fellow Canadian I could help shine some light on the situation. I haven't applied to CMS but do hold an acceptance at Wayne State (I don't plan on going b/c of other acceptances, but that's kind of besides the point).

I'm currently conducting clinical research as part of my Master's at Western (a large and well-regarded school in Canada that's about 2 hrs from Detroit, for all you puzzled Americans). Here at Western, Wayne State is both known and well-regarded among the physicians I've interacted with...I've even heard many stories from physicians of friends and relatives attending Wayne State and living in Windsor (gotta get the Nexus pass). I would say RFUMS/CMS does not have quite the same recognition as Wayne State at my school, but I would be surprised if attending CMS would detract from a residency application; I doubt residency directors would make such large decisions on such meaningless criteria. I also am unsure of whether Wayne State is as well known in cities in Ontario that aren't as close to Detroit as London.

In terms of your other points of assessment of Wayne State, the clinical facilities available do seem to be superb; I have a good friend who recently graduated from Wayne, and had only good things to say about the hospitals and clinical experience. Wayne has two big drawbacks in my mind, echoing some that you mentioned: cost ($59K/yr is ridiculousy expensive), and Detroit itself. I've been reassured that the campus itself is safe, but the area surrounding it would be intimidating to any Canadian. Whether or not Wayne State is in the "bad area" of Detroit, the poverty and abandonment that I've witnessed close to campus is staggering. However, Windsor is a short drive, and while not great by Canadian standards, looks like Shangri La when driving over from Detroit. Also, I've heard Royal Oak, where most of the Wayne students live, is quite nice and has a great night life.

Good luck on your decision.

 

[4goneconclusion]

I've weighed all the options and I really feel like Rosalind Franklin is the place for me. Chicago really won me over. Detroit, on the other hand, did not.