Welp, see ya later medical school

[DermViser]

It's that simple. JUST MAKE MORE MONEY

Oh, and be a good resident and hospitals will make it rain on you.

Yup, they'll piss on you. Won't pay you any more dough, though.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[DermViser]

then why don't you just do that for a while if it's a better option?
What's the point of making a thread about it unless you want people to talk you out of it?

Bad of him to break your impenetrable bubble. Let's all pray to to sun god, Ra, and sacrifice at the altar of Medicine.

Did you ever think that maybe, just maybe, he just wants to make sure he's going in with a proper mindset and make sure he's thought thru everything?

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

Confirmed Tufts adcom

Note: Do not ever try to call out LizzyM. GynGyn.

RIP @DiffusionJones

 

[coldpheet]

then why don't you just do that for a while if it's a better option?
What's the point of making a thread about it unless you want people to talk you out of it?

I want to have an objective dialogue about how med students are handling huge sums of debt. My COA is pretty scary, and I want to see if others feel the same way and what their game plan is.

I don't want people to talk me out of it. I want people to say that I'll be able to pay off my debt and live comfortably and I can go ahead with my goals and get rid of this nagging doubt. Instead, the only people who are talking me out of it are people who have actually gone though it.

 

[DermViser]

Question, would it be safe to say if you do Family Medicine or Internal Medicine, that you have at least the solace that your income will increase over time since it seems like the ACA is geared to favor primary care? As in can people in OP's shoes pay off the ~350k+ loan and live a comfortable life within those fields? I'm just curious because I would be glad to fill those roles; however, its the repayment that always irks me and the "never assume IBR/PAYE" mentality has me worried like OP since declining salaries may make it hard to pay back the loans and decrease quality of life.

401k matching, 8-5 daily, and 60k starting? Man, that is a seriously sweet gig.

The ACA may be geared to favor primary care, but as with all implementation of laws the devil is in the details and past precedence in which it doesn't happen or there are unintended consequences. Not to mention, the American public loves it's specialists and for good reason. They don't like Primary Care physicians who serve as gatekeepers. Exhibit A: the 1990s and HMOs.

1) There was supposed to be hike in Medicaid rates to Medicare levels so PCPs start seeing those patients - guess what? It was delayed and didn't happen.

2) As much as the ACA is geared to favor primary care, Obamacare has been seen to push NPs and PAs to the forefront of primary care to reach out to more people. Even Ezekiel Emanuel, the architect of the law, has said that "You don't need to see a doctor for all your healthcare needs". That should tell you something.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

2) As much as the ACA is geared to favor primary care, Obamacare has been seen to push NPs and PAs to the forefront of primary care to reach out to more people. Even Ezekiel Emanuel, the architect of the law, has said that "You don't need to see a doctor for all your healthcare needs". That should tell you something.

Aka, we don't want to pay for a Physician in that role (NPs and PAs are cheaper! (not really)), much less see them get a raise.

 

[DermViser]

Note: Do not ever try to call out LizzyM. RIP @DiffusionJones

You mean trying to call out gyngyn.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

You mean trying to call out gyngyn.

Dammit, first (5th) mistake of the day.
Indeed. GynGyn is not to be messed with, nor geographically placed.

 

[DermViser]

Aka, we don't want to pay for a Physician in that role (NPs and PAs are cheaper! (not really)), much less see them get a raise.

Pretty much. It's a way to cut costs. I'm sure all those primary care doctors would love to be relegated to being administrators of the PCMH (Primary Care Medical Home) rather than actually seeing patients, anyways.

 

[darklabel]

I want to have an objective dialogue about how med students are handling huge sums of debt. My COA is pretty scary, and I want to see if others feel the same way and what their game plan is.

I don't want people to talk me out of it. I want people to say that I'll be able to pay off my debt and live comfortably and I can go ahead with my goals and get rid of this nagging doubt. Instead, the only people who are talking me out of it are people who have actually gone though it.

That's pretty shocking that no one that has gone through with it has been supportive. Do you personally know a lot of MD's and medical students that can help you decide personally if its worth it and can be more supportive? Granted, I, like you, wish I had the luxury of going to a state school to lessen the load, but I still at least hear some encouragement from people I know in the medical field. Though truth be told, it'd be hard to pass up the offer you had. Maybe the best advice is to delay it a year and work your job for a year and see if its worth it? It that an option?

 

[TheWeeIceMan]

I want to have an objective dialogue about how med students are handling huge sums of debt. My COA is pretty scary, and I want to see if others feel the same way and what their game plan is.

I don't want people to talk me out of it. I want people to say that I'll be able to pay off my debt and live comfortably and I can go ahead with my goals and get rid of this nagging doubt. Instead, the only people who are talking me out of it are people who have actually gone though it.

That COA is crazy high and it will be a big burden. With that said, you can pay it off and "live comfortably," assuming you are smart and have a reasonable idea of what "comfortable" should mean. How "comfortable" you will be will depend on a few factors, some of which are out of your control (like reimbursement).

I applaud your desire to make sure that you are making the right career decision and I know it's a tough one. There are plenty of reason to not go into medicine, but as long as you have realistic expectations of your financial situation, I think you can make it work.

Like others have said, maybe you can convince your school to allow a deferral (this may be tricky), and see how you feel after working another year.

 

[DermViser]

I want to have an objective dialogue about how med students are handling huge sums of debt. My COA is pretty scary, and I want to see if others feel the same way and what their game plan is.

I don't want people to talk me out of it. I want people to say that I'll be able to pay off my debt and live comfortably and I can go ahead with my goals and get rid of this nagging doubt. Instead, the only people who are talking me out of it are people who have actually gone though it.

You came to the wrong place if you want objective dialogue on medical student debt from SDN. As far as they're concerned, Medicine is worth it at any price, even with sacrifice of your first born. Mind you these people have never held a REAL job in their life before, so economics isn't really their strong point. In their heads, any level of debt is worth it. Why do you think the Carribean continues to make so much money? I really would sit down with someone in Finance to calculate scenarios to see what exactly you're giving up financially.

That being said NP and PA have become more popular due to the higher ROI and no residency or fellowship required, and they're not just in primary care.

 

[coldpheet]

That's pretty shocking that no one that has gone through with it has been supportive. Do you personally know a lot of MD's and medical students that can help you decide personally if its worth it and can be more supportive? Granted, I, like you, wish I had the luxury of going to a state school to lessen the load, but I still at least hear some encouragement from people I know in the medical field. Though truth be told, it'd be hard to pass up the offer you had. Maybe the best advice is to delay it a year and work your job for a year and see if its worth it? It that an option?

This is an unprecedented cost of education. Most MDs I know are in the middle to twilight of their career and the percentage of their debt to income was much lower than that of newly minted MDs. So our situations aren't too comparable. I think you are right that I need to find some younger docs and med students and talk to them.

Not a bad idea to look into deferring.

 

[DermViser]

This is an unprecedented cost of education. Most MDs I know are in the middle to twilight of their career and the percentage of their debt to income was much lower than that of newly minted MDs. So our situations aren't too comparable. I think you are right that I need to find some younger docs and med students and talk to them.

Not a bad idea to look into deferring.

You truly are wise beyond your years.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

This is an unprecedented cost of education. Most MDs I know are in the middle to twilight of their career and the percentage of their debt to income was much lower than that of newly minted MDs. So our situations aren't too comparable.

This guy is winning SDN tonight.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

You truly are wise beyond your years.

This guy is winning SDN tonight.

Well...that was creepy convergence.

 

[Druggernaut]

I want to have an objective dialogue about how med students are handling huge sums of debt. My COA is pretty scary, and I want to see if others feel the same way and what their game plan is.

I don't want people to talk me out of it. I want people to say that I'll be able to pay off my debt and live comfortably and I can go ahead with my goals and get rid of this nagging doubt. Instead, the only people who are talking me out of it are people who have actually gone though it.

What would you be earning as an engineer? If you want to be objective, you'll have to have numbers on each side.

 

[Mad Jack]

Sorry to hear, I agree the way financial aid works really sucks for some due to a belief that their family SHOULD be willing to help foot the bill. It really makes it hard to choose to become a physician, and pretty much all but makes it impossible to do anything non-specialist due to loans.

Not to add to the top of your this sucks cake, but the loan rates are supposed to be going up to 6.1%/7.1% or something close to that I believe.

Lol, some believe their family should help... I mean, I guess that's cool for families with means, but if my family decided to help me they'd probably be going to bed hungry. I'd sleep better just taking out the loans.

 

[terp720]

I want to have an objective dialogue about how med students are handling huge sums of debt. My COA is pretty scary, and I want to see if others feel the same way and what their game plan is.

I don't want people to talk me out of it. I want people to say that I'll be able to pay off my debt and live comfortably and I can go ahead with my goals and get rid of this nagging doubt. Instead, the only people who are talking me out of it are people who have actually gone though it.

You don't want be to talk you out of it... you just want them to tell you it will all be alright so you can do what you actually want to do?
And the difference is...?
Turns out people are actually siding with you. If that's not what you wanted, then it sounds like you might end up regretting letting go of your spot.

 

[Fabio Lanzoni]

I want to have an objective dialogue about how med students are handling huge sums of debt. My COA is pretty scary, and I want to see if others feel the same way and what their game plan is.

I don't want people to talk me out of it. I want people to say that I'll be able to pay off my debt and live comfortably and I can go ahead with my goals and get rid of this nagging doubt. Instead, the only people who are talking me out of it are people who have actually gone though it.

That is the only real factor here. Of course you can pay off debt from med school. We're not talking millions. How you define "live comfortably" is what will determine if this is worth it for you.

 

[StBernardsRule]

I want to have an objective dialogue about how med students are handling huge sums of debt. My COA is pretty scary, and I want to see if others feel the same way and what their game plan is.

I don't want people to talk me out of it. I want people to say that I'll be able to pay off my debt and live comfortably and I can go ahead with my goals and get rid of this nagging doubt. Instead, the only people who are talking me out of it are people who have actually gone though it.

There are too many variables to say for sure and in general people tend not think about concepts that make them uncomfortable and uncertain. That's why the debt issue is so rarely discussed in forums or in school. It's just uncomfortable to think about, not to mention pre-meds rarely know what they're talking about and attendings have no experience with this kind of debt load or how difficult it is to get into a state school if you're from Cali. So many variables are at play here (if you get a competitive residency, where you'll live, what salaries to expect in different fields in 7+ years when healthcare is changing so much...).

I will say this though. Right now we're undoubtedly on a higher education bubble and it's very likely the cost of attending some medical schools soon won't actually justify the salaries that the jobs provide. This has already very clearly happened in other fields such as veterinary medicine as well as law (unless you make big law and the vast majority don't). Schools will continue to charge more and more until students force them to charge less and students likely won't force them to charge less until the costs of school have already greatly exceeded the (at least financial) benefits. That's what brainwashing kids and telling them "follow your dreams, you can do whatever you want!" and "education is always a good investment as you're investing in yourself!" will do to you.

As I said before, as a Cali resident I was in a similar situation to yours (with lower numbers, but not by much) and decided I would not do private MD schools. When I made this decision I had no idea if this was the right decision for me just like regardless of what you decide you won't know with certainty if it is the right decision for you. No one does.

 

[masaraksh]

I will say this though. Right now we're undoubtedly on a higher education bubble and it's very likely the cost of attending some medical schools soon won't actually justify the salaries that the jobs provide. This has already very clearly happened in other fields such as veterinary medicine as well as law (unless you make big law and the vast majority don't). Schools will continue to charge more and more until students force them to charge less and students likely won't force them to charge less until the costs of school have already greatly exceeded the (at least financial) benefits. That's what brainwashing kids and telling them "follow your dreams, you can do whatever you want!" and "education is always a good investment as you're investing in yourself!" will do to you.

Very true. I mean, look at how financially 'worthless' MAs and MSs have become.


IMPORTANT NOTE: If you withdraw your offer, you are essentially closing the door to medicine. If you were to reapply, adcoms may trash the app on that basis alone. Thats why this is a VERY big decision.

 

[StBernardsRule]

Very true. I mean, look at how financially 'worthless' MAs and MSs have become.


IMPORTANT NOTE: If you withdraw your offer, you are essentially closing the door to medicine. If you were to reapply, adcoms may trash the app on that basis alone. Thats why this is a VERY big decision.

Can an adcom confirm this? Can adcoms tell if a student has received an offer before even if they decline?

 

[PL198]

OP is just graduating undergrad and thinking about company matching 401(k), dude you're my boy.

 

[lmn]

OP is just graduating undergrad and thinking about company matching 401(k), dude you're my boy.

Only the naive go into work or med school/other grad schools without an understanding of their possibilities and at least a basic financial plan...

 

[PL198]

Only the naive go into work or med school/other grad schools without an understanding of their possibilities and at least a basic financial plan...

I guess 99.9% of people are naive then. Avg 22 yr old doesn't think of these things.

 

[coldpheet]

IMPORTANT NOTE: If you withdraw your offer, you are essentially closing the door to medicine. If you were to reapply, adcoms may trash the app on that basis alone. Thats why this is a VERY big decision.

I know it

 

[lmn]

I guess 99.9% of people are naive then. Avg 22 yr old doesn't think of these things.

Very true, just like in every other aspect of living a responsible life, the average person doesn't really give a crap until it is actively negatively affecting them.

 

[Fabio Lanzoni]

the average person doesn't really give a crap until it is actively negatively affecting them.

Global warming *Cough*

 

[coldpheet]

How you define "live comfortably" is what will determine if this is worth it for you.

Yup, not just income vs debt. That's only part of the whole package. Certainly will ponder it some more and do some financials. Thanks to all for your comments.

 

[LiamNeesons]

30k net worth? You will need a career. Don't think about the debt. Think about what you'll have to wake up and do every day for the rest of your life. Do you want to give orders or take orders, etc. There's more to life than money.

 

[HinduHammer]

I was accepted this cycle c/o 2018. 3.6 gpa, 37 MCAT, BS (biomed E) from Ivy league school. California resident. Accepted at a private school in Boston (only school I got into).

This school is about $85k/yr and I did not receive any financial aid. No aid from family or friends either. With unsubsidized loans at 5.4% and 6.4% interest, I'm looking at $450k in debt by the time I finish a residency (4 yrs).

At a 10 yr repayment period, I would pay 40% of my month salary (assuming $250k/yr salary...probably a generous estimate ) in loan repayment with a total repayment of $560k. I could pay back on an IBR plan and only pay about 15% of my salary, but I would likely pay this off for the rest of my career and total repayment would be $750k.

This just doesn't make sense financially. Being a physician is really the only thing I would like to do, but I don't want to be an indentured servant to do it. Even the best career would turn sour if I feel like I am forced to do it because of suffocating debt.

I'm going to drop my offer. Good luck to whoever is on the waiting list licking their chops. I figure with my degree and undergrad school I can get an interesting job and make a decent salary and not kill myself in the process. I really admire you SDNers who have the guts to follow your dreams, debt and all.

So, I (unfortunately) just read this whole thread.

Umm... is anyone else still reeling from the fact that OP had a 3.6 in BME from an Ivy and a 37 MCAT and only got into one school? Yikes.

As an economist by training (and pre-med career changer), it is interesting to note that the market still deems the medical field to be very good. Otherwise, people with Ivy BME degrees and 37 MCATs would be admitted to many more schools, in their home states, with scholarships in hand. Logically speaking, OP, if you trust the wisdom of the market, the market has decided that medical education is worth the investment otherwise people like you would never find themselves in this scenario. The supply is far more constrained than the demand, despite the high price tag. That's my $.02 anyway.

But seriously, 37 MCAT 3.6 Ivy engineer and one acceptance?? *Sigh* back to MCAT studying...

 

[DermViser]

Yep, looks like I made some mistakes on loan repayment options I have no plans on using but was tossing in since they'd seem to soften the blow for the OP a bit. And I was referring to qualified public service organizations when I said 10 years. Thanks for reiterating that.

If you can't see that $150k after making your yearly loan payments and doing what you love is better than $60k in a field you settled for, I don't know what to tell you. Seems like a pretty clear benefit to me.

You realize that he wouldn't be making 60 K every year. You know that salaries don't stay static, right?

 

[DermViser]

So, I (unfortunately) just read this whole thread.

Umm... is anyone else still reeling from the fact that OP had a 3.6 in BME from an Ivy and a 37 MCAT and only got into one school? Yikes.

As an economist by training (and pre-med career changer), it is interesting to note that the market still deems the medical field to be very good. Otherwise, people with Ivy BME degrees and 37 MCATs would be admitted to many more schools, in their home states, with scholarships in hand. Logically speaking, OP, if you trust the wisdom of the market, the market has decided that medical education is worth the investment otherwise people like you would never find themselves in this scenario. The supply is far more constrained than the demand, despite the high price tag. That's my $.02 anyway.

But seriously, 37 MCAT 3.6 Ivy engineer and one acceptance?? *Sigh* back to MCAT studying...

He was also a California resident. I guarantee you if he was in a different state, he would have gotten into more. Easily.

 

[StBernardsRule]

As an economist by training (and pre-med career changer), it is interesting to note that the market still deems the medical field to be very good. Otherwise, people with Ivy BME degrees and 37 MCATs would be admitted to many more schools, in their home states, with scholarships in hand.

Logically speaking, OP, if you trust the wisdom of the market, the market has decided that medical education is worth the investment otherwise people like you would never find themselves in this scenario. The supply is far more constrained than the demand, despite the high price tag. That's my $.02 anyway.

As already explained, this just isn't true. We're not dealing with consumers and sellers with complete information and as any econ major should know "perfect information" is the name of the game to making a market run smoothly. Yet we don't even know what a typical doctor salary will be in 10 years. We're very, very far away from perfect information.

Also, let's not lose sight of the fact that kids barely old enough to drink and not old enough to rent a car are somehow supposed to be trusted with the ability to do a cost-benefit analysis of whether or not an MD justifies 300k+ of non-dischargeable debt. No one really knows the answer to this, much less your typical 23 year.

Do yourself a favor and google how hard it is to get into veterinary school, how much it cost, and what average salaries for vets are. You'll see extremely quickly this is a horrible investment for many (probably most) students, and you'll also likely be shocked to see that despite this likely being a bad career choice there is an incredible oversupply of overqualified vet school applicants hoping desperately to get in.

But seriously, 37 MCAT 3.6 Ivy engineer and one acceptance?? *Sigh* back to MCAT studying...

This can't be nearly as rare as some people in SDN make it out to be, especially if you are an Asian California resident (oh snap race bomb). And even if it was that unlikely, if OP had 3 options of schools which all charge around 55k/year in tuition alone, it wouldn't change his situation in a relevant way.

 

[DermViser]

As already explained, this just isn't true. We're not dealing with consumers and sellers with complete information and as any econ major should know "perfect information" is the name of the game to making a market run smoothly. Yet we don't even know what a typical doctor salary will be in 10 years. We're very, very far away from perfect information.

Also, let's not lose sight of the fact that kids barely old enough to drink and not old enough to rent a car are somehow supposed to be trusted with the ability to do a cost-benefit analysis of whether or not an MD justifies 300k+ of non-dischargeable debt. No one really knows the answer to this.

Do yourself a favor and google how hard it is to get into veterinary school, how much it cost, and what average salaries for vets are. You'll see extremely quickly this is a horrible investment for many (probably most) students, and you'll also likely be shocked to see that despite this likely being a bad career choice there is an incredibly oversupply of overqualified vet school applicants hoping desperately to get in.

This can't be nearly as rare as some people in SDN make it out to be, especially if you are an Asian California resident (oh snap race bomb). And even if it was, if OP had 3 options of schools which all charge around 55k/year in tuition alone, it wouldn't change his situation in a relevant way.

Your SDN premed may be great at basic science, but I have yet to meet one who is economically intelligent with respect to knowing exactly how much they will be shelling out in loan payments and budgeting (assuming their parents aren't shelling out money for their education and for many premeds this is very much a reality, esp. those with doctor parents). As far as they're concerned, promissory notes are Valentine's Day cards.

 

[Zelda840]

OP this is what you do...

You're obviously very smart, so I'm assuming you can kill your boards and land a high-paying specialty. Land said specialty, pull in 350k+ a year. Say F the student loans and simply don't repay them. Yes, your credit will be shot, but they can only garnish 15% of DISPOSABLE income for student loan repayment. Get a good accountant who will turn this into nothing. Since you're making major bucks, you pay for everything in cash money. Free medical education, high salary, no debt. Problem solved.

I know this isn't the point of this thread, but I just can't let this go. This is not the way garnishments on student loans work. It's 15% after REQUIRED deductions....as in taxes. You can't reroute your money into voluntary deductions in order to have a lower disposable income. That's why voluntary and involuntary deductions are coded differently in payroll software.

 

[coldpheet]

As already explained, this just isn't true. We're not dealing with consumers and sellers with complete information and as any econ major should know "perfect information" is the name of the game to making a market run smoothly. Yet we don't even know what a typical doctor salary will be in 10 years. We're very, very far away from perfect information.

Also, let's not lose sight of the fact that kids barely old enough to drink and not old enough to rent a car are somehow supposed to be trusted with the ability to do a cost-benefit analysis of whether or not an MD justifies 300k+ of non-dischargeable debt. No one really knows the answer to this, much less your typical 23 year.

Do yourself a favor and google how hard it is to get into veterinary school, how much it cost, and what average salaries for vets are. You'll see extremely quickly this is a horrible investment for many (probably most) students, and you'll also likely be shocked to see that despite this likely being a bad career choice there is an incredible oversupply of overqualified vet school applicants hoping desperately to get in.



This can't be nearly as rare as some people in SDN make it out to be, especially if you are an Asian California resident (oh snap race bomb). And even if it was that unlikely, if OP had 3 options of schools which all charge around 55k/year in tuition alone, it wouldn't change his situation in a relevant way.

great argument.

nope, I am an URM. Just kidding, caucasian. Tough go for all you californians.

 

[DermViser]

Only the naive go into work or med school/other grad schools without an understanding of their possibilities and at least a basic financial plan...

You apparently haven't met your typical premed.

 

[PL198]

Medicine is heavily intervened by the government, so economic analysis of it is uber complex. If we want to really get radical and throw in some calc, I'd say the first derivative on medicine as a whole is negative and the second derivative on that **** is like -10000000.

 

[coldpheet]

30k net worth? You will need a career. Don't think about the debt. Think about what you'll have to wake up and do every day for the rest of your life. Do you want to give orders or take orders, etc. There's more to life than money.

what? Didn't I just spend 2o posts trying to dispel this kind of attitude? You are a fool not to think about the debt.

I want to wake up and have a productive career too. What happens when treating the parade of t2dm, cvd, copd, and drug abusers isn't everything that thought it would be when you started out on this path? There may be more to life, but you won't be able to see it under that pile of debt. Don't go invoking burnett's law on me or whatever it's called...

 

[HinduHammer]

As already explained, this just isn't true. We're not dealing with consumers and sellers with complete information and as any econ major should know "perfect information" is the name of the game to making a market run smoothly. Yet we don't even know what a typical doctor salary will be in 10 years. We're very, very far away from perfect information.

Also, let's not lose sight of the fact that kids barely old enough to drink and not old enough to rent a car are somehow supposed to be trusted with the ability to do a cost-benefit analysis of whether or not an MD justifies 300k+ of non-dischargeable debt. No one really knows the answer to this, much less your typical 23 year.

Do yourself a favor and google how hard it is to get into veterinary school, how much it cost, and what average salaries for vets are. You'll see extremely quickly this is a horrible investment for many (probably most) students, and you'll also likely be shocked to see that despite this likely being a bad career choice there is an incredible oversupply of overqualified vet school applicants hoping desperately to get in.



This can't be nearly as rare as some people in SDN make it out to be, especially if you are an Asian California resident (oh snap race bomb). And even if it was that unlikely, if OP had 3 options of schools which all charge around 55k/year in tuition alone, it wouldn't change his situation in a relevant way.

Well, I'm not going to get into an internet war about whose right and you seem very confident of your facts. I will however note that one can find enough facts to support whatever position they fundamentally believe in. Which leads to my next point - the market is usually right. You say "any econ major should not perfect information is the name of the game." Not true. There is no such real-life things as perfect information. The US stock markets for example, are about as close to being 'perfect' as you can get in the real world and they are deemed efficient. That is, players in the market have enough information to make informed decisions.

The same is true in the pre-med market, by and large. As many have stated, many pre-meds come from MD parents - who are in a position to be educated about choices and inform their kids to go into medicine.

Others are like me who attend cost-of-attendance presentations at their state medical schools administered by the director of financial aid and learn that even in the worst financial situation of complete reliance on loans, the average physician still takes home quite a bit of compensation, like top 10% of wage earners compensation.

Further, you are also not taking into account the UTILITY of being a physician. One gets utility from money but also from leisure and satisfaction. One would assume that if you take the sunk cost of med school applications, not to mention the time investment of pre-reqs and mcat studying, you have done enough research/shadowing/whatever to determine you will get a high utility from being a physician.

Lastly, please stop with the sky-is-falling no one knows what the physician salaries are going to be in ten years. Can you tell me how much a construction engineer will make in ten years? How about a CPA? What about a trial lawyer? Concert pianist? Unless you work for the government and have a schedule of what your salary projections are going to be for your grade and step or are in a union with a long-term contract, or are at the bottom run of wage earners living close to the minimum wage (and even then who knows what the min wage will be in ten years), NO ONE KNOWS WHAT THE TYPICAL SALARY WILL BE IN TEN YEARS.

Having discussed my ample problems with your "informed" post, do yourself a favor and look into an educational resource besides googling veterinary schools.
Oops, it looks like I ended up in an internet argument after all! Oh well.

Edit: you may want to google efficient markets hypothesis

 

[StBernardsRule]

what? Didn't I just spend 2o posts trying to dispel this kind of attitude? You are a fool not to think about the debt.

I want to wake up and have a productive career too. What happens when treating the parade of t2dm, cvd, copd, and drug abusers isn't everything that thought it would be when you started out on this path? There may be more to life, but you won't be able to see it under that pile of debt. Don't go invoking burnett's law on me or whatever it's called...

Do some research on what % of medical students are depressed (just google it and read some studies). Also look at surveys that show what % of doctors are satisfied with their career choice and compare that base rate to other careers.

If you've never done this before, what you'll find is pretty scary and something you probably want to keep in mind. A large % of medical students who are depressed and the doctors who think they made a bad career choice all probably thought "I know I'll love medicine and will always be excited to wake up and do this for the rest of my life." Well, they were wrong. And it's tough cookies for you if you realize this half-way through 3rd year with $150k+ debt, you're stuck.

It is FOOLISH to think you know with absolute certainty what you want to do and equally foolish to not do the basic number crunching OP is doing when making his decision.

EDIT: To be clear OP I'm with the others and think you are being very smart about this to make the most informed decision possible. Best of luck on whatever you decide.

 

[StBernardsRule]

Well, I'm not going to get into an internet war about whose right and you seem very confident of your facts. I will however note that one can find enough facts to support whatever position they fundamentally believe in. Which leads to my next point - the market is usually right. You say "any econ major should not perfect information is the name of the game." Not true. There is no such real-life things as perfect information. The US stock markets for example, are about as close to being 'perfect' as you can get in the real world and they are deemed efficient. That is, players in the market have enough information to make informed decisions.

The same is true in the pre-med market, by and large. As many have stated, many pre-meds come from MD parents - who are in a position to be educated about choices and inform their kids to go into medicine.

Others are like me who attend cost-of-attendance presentations at their state medical schools administered by the director of financial aid and learn that even in the worst financial situation of complete reliance on loans, the average physician still takes home quite a bit of compensation, like top 10% of wage earners compensation.

Further, you are also not taking into account the UTILITY of being a physician. One gets utility from money but also from leisure and satisfaction. One would assume that if you take the sunk cost of med school applications, not to mention the time investment of pre-reqs and mcat studying, you have done enough research/shadowing/whatever to determine you will get a high utility from being a physician.

Lastly, please stop with the sky-is-falling no one knows what the physician salaries are going to be in ten years. Can you tell me how much a construction engineer will make in ten years? How about a CPA? What about a trial lawyer? Concert pianist? Unless you work for the government and have a schedule of what your salary projections are going to be for your grade and step or are in a union with a long-term contract, or are at the bottom run of wage earners living close to the minimum wage (and even then who knows what the min wage will be in ten years), NO ONE KNOWS WHAT THE TYPICAL SALARY WILL BE IN TEN YEARS.

Having discussed my ample problems with your "informed" post, do yourself a favor and look into an educational resource besides googling veterinary schools.
Oops, it looks like I ended up in an internet argument after all! Oh well.

Edit: you may want to google efficient markets hypothesis

You keep saying my "informed" post like I took some tone with you or gave a bunch of my own opinions, when all I'm trying to do is help the OP (and others who may read this thread) make a more informed decision. I only really pointed out:

#1) Just because it's difficult to get into a school does not mean it's a sound financial investment.
#2) I gave you some examples of schools that are very hard to get into (veterinary schools) that are not sound financial investments.

That's it. I wasn't challenging you to a "let's see who knows economics better!" battle or anything.

 

[lobo.solo]

This is a refreshing thread OP, good job. What I would do is to try to defer the acceptance and apply more broadly this cycle. Benefits from this would be that you get to save some money and you have the possibility to get into a cheaper school. I also wonder what was your school list this past year... Maybe you can get some feedback here in case you want to reapply.

 

[solitarius]

He was also a California resident. I guarantee you if he was in a different state, he would have gotten into more. Easily.

This thread would be non-existent if he were going to UT or UMass.

 

[EMDO2018]

Just looked at Tufts COA ~90k a year. That is f'ing ridiculous and should be criminal.

 

[TheWeeIceMan]

30k net worth? You will need a career. Don't think about the debt. Think about what you'll have to wake up and do every day for the rest of your life. Do you want to give orders or take orders, etc. There's more to life than money.

I'm assuming you just mean this statement in general, because I certainly wouldn't boil medicine vs. engineering down to that choice.

 

[masaraksh]

Global warming *Cough*

Bad example. That's just.a theory

 

[masaraksh]

I'm assuming you just mean this statement in general, because I certainly wouldn't boil medicine vs. engineering down to that choice.

Agree. It is completely childish and typical of a ugrad pre-med to dismiss a different career path with the 'do you want to give orders or get orders' type statement.