Welp, see ya later medical school

[bustabusta]

I know this isn't the point of this thread, but I just can't let this go. This is not the way garnishments on student loans work. It's 15% after REQUIRED deductions....as in taxes. You can't reroute your money into voluntary deductions in order to have a lower disposable income. That's why voluntary and involuntary deductions are coded differently in payroll software.

offshore. bank accounts.

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[WhippleWhileWeWork]

30k net worth? You will need a career. Don't think about the debt. Think about what you'll have to wake up and do every day for the rest of your life. Do you want to give orders or take orders, etc. There's more to life than money.

That's a bit of a false choice. You think Physicians aren't taking orders? Almost everyone has a boss, to some degree.

 

[DokterMom]

I didn't mean to belittle. I tried to make the argument (albeit poorly worded) that not being able to fathom other careers is a silly requirement for whether or not one should go to medical school and become a physician. As someone said in another thread... if you can't find something you would also like to do, look harder.

I can fathom working in other careers (medical device development, protein engineering, personalized medicine/genomic medicine), but I have chosen medicine because it seems to fit my personal and professional goals and desires more than other careers I've though about/had experience in.

Maybe being content in these other careers is a signal that I really shouldn't go to medical school, even if I think I would be more fulfilled being a physician (cost aside).

Haven't made it all the way through this thread, but wanted to reply --

All of these other careers you mention do sound interesting and rewarding. But how many of them are available to even the brightest BME student with only a BS? Wouldn't you need to go back to school for at least a masters to do any type of meaningful, well-payed work in BME or the bio-medical sciences? And you did say Bay Area. Do you mean SF Bay Area? If so, I assume you were living with parents if you were at all comfortable on $60K per year. Or living with multiple roommates / like a college student, etc. That kind of paycheck doesn't bring you a comfortable life in that kind of location...

From your posts, you sound cautious, analytical and risk-averse. Not bad qualities at all. But do fully consider both the upside and downside of all your options.

Acknowledge that as a physician, even your downside income is protected. Unless you make some highly unusual and deliberate choices, your income simply won't be below an upper-middle class level. Your choice of specialty can assure a much higher income, or even a much, much higher income. Even 'below average' doctors do quite well. In other words, the 'floor' is quite good; the ceiling is very high. And the employment security is second to none. The loans, you know. Though they can be refinanced after residency at much lower rates and/or may be bought-out as part of a signing bonus -- so perhaps, not nearly as bad as you think. But assume the worst. No - on second thought, don't. Investigate the refinance and buyout options on the residency and attending forums here. They'll still exist when you graduate. There will not be a glut of physicians in the US any time soon.

As a BS-level BME, your income and job prospects are much less secure. True, you will be able to buy a house sooner, but what kind of house? Where? (Tracy, anyone?) How far from work? What does the career trajectory look like for the average person with your credentials? What about the slightly-below and slightly-above average person? What's the top side of normal? And if the company you work for now went under (it happens), what are your short-term job prospects for replacing your job at comparable pay? Run those numbers...

People also talk about the incredible amount of work the next eight years will entail on a medical path. Very true. But what do you think the next eight years really look like on an alternate path? A young professional who is on the road to success in any field needs to put in long hours at peak effort. Half-assed efforts in any field lead to mediocre results and career plateaus at the mid-manager level. Compare the first decade hours in investment banking, tech, law, consulting, BME -- compare those to medical school and residency, and the difference isn't nearly as big as it sounds. 80 hour work weeks are a standard feature of the first decade (often more) in many (most?) high-paying careers. And there are 'poop hot dogs' to eat there too. And worst of all, your success is much less within your own control than it is in medicine. In short, that grass isn't all that green...

I'd hate to see you give up your dream for financial reasons only. If your reasons are broader, then yeah --

 

[lmn]

MD also opens a ton of other opportunities, since you worked in biotech I'm sure you've seen that large number of startup biotech CEO's are MD's, you can also get heavily involved in bench research or clinical trials, consulting, banking, and a number of other things that are hardly the standard patient seeing or drug pushing side of being a physician. It isn't like you are completely locked into just seeing patients in a clinic for your entire life if you are competent in other ways as well and interested in doing something else.

 

[LiamNeesons]

That's a bit of a false choice. You think Physicians aren't taking orders? Almost everyone has a boss, to some degree.

"But did you know that he'll have to make 300k minus 100k for TEN years!!!?!? He should have been an accountant and won at life."

"Yea but he'll still have to answer to the president of the United States!"

Etc.

There are other things in life that are worth considering. That's all I'm saying.

 

[Druggernaut]

You realize that he wouldn't be making 60 K every year. You know that salaries don't stay static, right?

Yep, but that's the only number he threw out in this thread, despite being asked what he'd expect to make as an engineer. I'm beginning to go back to my initial suspicion that he has an ulterior motive here, but I'll play along a little more.

So, BLS.gov says BME has a median income of about $87k. So let's assume he begins making that immediately. The 2013 Medscape salary survey for family medicine (a worst case financial scenario in medicine) says the average pay for a male is $184k. But we'll make it even worse-case and go with the average for all full time FM physicians and go with $175k. We'll also ignore the debt repayment options that you can find in primary care and assume the OP would pay back the whole thing himself. But academic FM jobs, which as I understand would for the most part qualify you for IBR and forgiveness after ten years, have a mean pay of $154k.

Let's also stack the deck against medicine and take out 30% for federal taxes (a higher rate than you'd actually be taxed for this income) and not take any taxes out of BME's $87k. So now you're at $122.5k versus 87k. That leaves $35.5k per year to pay down loans to bring him to the pre-tax level for BME. Not quite enough to pay down the $560k over 10 years he said in his initial post, but even if they total repayment climbed to the astronomical $750k, he could do that in about 21 years without ever having less than the pre-tax income for BME to play with. Sure, there's 7 years of lost BME opportunity cost in medical school and family medicine residency, but he'd still have a number of years as a debt-free attending to make it up even if he took that full 21 years.

And that's assuming he took the average pay for all FM doctors, less than his gender's average. And assuming he'd go into one of the worst paying specialties. And assuming his BME income would somehow magically not be taxed. And that he was taxed far more as a FM physician that he would actually be. And that he was foolish and decided not to take advantage of any loan repayment options. Even with all these handicaps to medicine, it comes out pretty even, and he gets to do "the only thing he would like to do."

Why has this discussion gone for this many pages?

 

[ToldYouSo]

Bad example. That's just.a theory

So is gravity

 

[PL198]

Yep, but that's the only number he threw out in this thread, despite being asked what he'd expect to make as an engineer. I'm beginning to go back to my initial suspicion that he has an ulterior motive here, but I'll play along a little more.

So, BLS.gov says BME has a median income of about $87k. So let's assume he begins making that immediately. The 2013 Medscape salary survey for family medicine (a worst case financial scenario in medicine) says the average pay for a male is $184k. But we'll make it even worse-case and go with the average for all full time FM physicians and go with $175k. We'll also ignore the debt repayment options that you can find in primary care and assume the OP would pay back the whole thing himself. But academic FM jobs, which as I understand would for the most part qualify you for IBR and forgiveness after ten years, have a mean pay of $154k.

Let's also stack the deck against medicine and take out 30% for federal taxes (a higher rate than you'd actually be taxed for this income) and not take any taxes out of BME's $87k. So now you're at $122.5k versus 87k. That leaves $35.5k per year to pay down loans to bring him to the pre-tax level for BME. Not quite enough to pay down the $560k over 10 years he said in his initial post, but even if they total repayment climbed to the astronomical $750k, he could do that in about 21 years without ever having less than the pre-tax income for BME to play with. Sure, there's 7 years of lost BME opportunity cost in medical school and family medicine residency, but he'd still have a number of years as a debt-free attending to make it up even if he took that full 21 years.

And that's assuming he took the average pay for all FM doctors, less than his gender's average. And assuming he'd go into one of the worst paying specialties. And assuming his BME income would somehow magically not be taxed. And that he was taxed far more as a FM physician that he would actually be. And that he was foolish and decided not to take advantage of any loan repayment options. Even with all these handicaps to medicine, it comes out pretty even, and he gets to do "the only thing he would like to do."

Why has this discussion gone for this many pages?

The bolded makes a much bigger difference than you make it out to be. That's 7 years of 87k if we are doing your scenario. 3 of which the differential is only 37k if we're assuming a family med resident makes 50k, however a present value ~ 300-350k is a TON of money at the start of his career, that will end up being a very large future value. Not to mention the fact that all salaries you suggest are still considerably less actual take home pay than what you are saying with all factors considered, which only sway it more towards BME.

 

[StBernardsRule]

Yep, but that's the only number he threw out in this thread, despite being asked what he'd expect to make as an engineer. I'm beginning to go back to my initial suspicion that he has an ulterior motive here, but I'll play along a little more.

So, BLS.gov says BME has a median income of about $87k. So let's assume he begins making that immediately. The 2013 Medscape salary survey for family medicine (a worst case financial scenario in medicine) says the average pay for a male is $184k. But we'll make it even worse-case and go with the average for all full time FM physicians and go with $175k. We'll also ignore the debt repayment options that you can find in primary care and assume the OP would pay back the whole thing himself. But academic FM jobs, which as I understand would for the most part qualify you for IBR and forgiveness after ten years, have a mean pay of $154k.

Let's also stack the deck against medicine and take out 30% for federal taxes (a higher rate than you'd actually be taxed for this income) and not take any taxes out of BME's $87k. So now you're at $122.5k versus 87k. That leaves $35.5k per year to pay down loans to bring him to the pre-tax level for BME. Not quite enough to pay down the $560k over 10 years he said in his initial post, but even if they total repayment climbed to the astronomical $750k, he could do that in about 21 years without ever having less than the pre-tax income for BME to play with. Sure, there's 7 years of lost BME opportunity cost in medical school and family medicine residency, but he'd still have a number of years as a debt-free attending to make it up even if he took that full 21 years.

And that's assuming he took the average pay for all FM doctors, less than his gender's average. And assuming he'd go into one of the worst paying specialties. And assuming his BME income would somehow magically not be taxed. And that he was taxed far more as a FM physician that he would actually be. And that he was foolish and decided not to take advantage of any loan repayment options. Even with all these handicaps to medicine, it comes out pretty even, and he gets to do "the only thing he would like to do."

Why has this discussion gone for this many pages?

You're not taking into account the hours worked on average for a doctor (In med school, residency, and as an attending), which are probably many more hours than his current 9-5 type job. I think leaving that out leads to pretty misleading results, because it's not fair to compare someone who will work on average 45 hours a week (with a normal schedule) to someone who will work 70+ hours per week on a hectic schedule over the next 15 years.

 

[Druggernaut]

The bolded makes a much bigger difference than you make it out to be. That's 7 years of 87k if we are doing your scenario. 3 of which the differential is only 37k if we're assuming a family med resident makes 50k, however a present value ~ 300-350k is a TON of money at the start of his career, that will end up being a very large future value. Not to mention the fact that all salaries you suggest are still considerably less actual take home pay than what you are saying with all factors considered, which only sway it more towards BME.

Yeah, but you're not going to be making $87k right off the bat either. You're doing $60k right now. And those numbers were untaxed in the example, while the FM numbers were overtaxed around $13k+ now that I plugged them into a tax calculator ($87k drops to $72k post tax, by the way). So that's about an extra $28k you coul be putting into loans, which changes the scenario to you making enough to pay it off within ten years, then having $60k+ of income the rest of your career to blow BME out of the water. So no, it doesn't sway it more towards BME.

Worst case scenario, you're still coming out ahead. And numbers don't even come close if you try for something that reimburses more, which could be something as easy to match into as internal medicine and working as a hospitalist.

You're not taking into account the hours worked on average for a doctor (In med school, residency, and as an attending), which are probably many more hours than his current 9-5 type job. I think leaving that out leads to pretty misleading results, because it's not fair to compare someone who will work on average 45 hours a week (with a normal schedule) to someone who will work 70+ hours per week on a hectic schedule over the next 15 years.

Those hospitalists are doing 14 12 hours shifts, as I said earlier. Most family medicine doctors do 30-40 hours a week with patients. Tack on another 10-20 hours for paperwork. So 40-60 hours, while the OP is making $60k doing 45 hours a week currently. I'd imagine the BME guys earning $87k aren't punching the clock for 40 hours a week, but I could be wrong.

 

[persumas]

You make very valid points, that I actually very much agree with very similar numbers in previous posts.

But I think OP and most people (sorry for the huge generalization!) who are concerned about the financials aren't worried about "whether it will be worth it in the end," but rather "when does it begin to be a more financially viable option" sort of thing. I think the most of us agree that it does pay off... at some point. But "at what cost" is that it takes at least 20 years from the start of medical school for the "investment" to yield better returns than the alternative... when we consider it purely from a current net worth perspective.

I think it is a very valid concern to raise when you're considering attending a school with a COA nearly double what most schools may be, since that directly affects the time it will take for you to reap the benefits of your "investement". But I also think this is something to be determined on an individual basis. For some people, the utility they lose from other the opportunities that offer a more stable financial situation throughout their entire life, is not worth the utility they gain from becoming a doctor and having the loan burden until they are 40 (if we're lucky).

I'm not arguing that becoming a doctor isn't a financially viable or smart option, I'm going this route, so I certainly have figured out personally, even the "worst case" scenario as a physician is worth it. But I will say, becoming a physician is something that requires almost an inordinate appreciation for delayed gratification. Both professionally and financially. At some point for each of us, this delay makes it not worthwhile. We all have different thresholds for that is all

Yep, but that's the only number he threw out in this thread, despite being asked what he'd expect to make as an engineer. I'm beginning to go back to my initial suspicion that he has an ulterior motive here, but I'll play along a little more.

So, BLS.gov says BME has a median income of about $87k. So let's assume he begins making that immediately. The 2013 Medscape salary survey for family medicine (a worst case financial scenario in medicine) says the average pay for a male is $184k. But we'll make it even worse-case and go with the average for all full time FM physicians and go with $175k. We'll also ignore the debt repayment options that you can find in primary care and assume the OP would pay back the whole thing himself. But academic FM jobs, which as I understand would for the most part qualify you for IBR and forgiveness after ten years, have a mean pay of $154k.

Let's also stack the deck against medicine and take out 30% for federal taxes (a higher rate than you'd actually be taxed for this income) and not take any taxes out of BME's $87k. So now you're at $122.5k versus 87k. That leaves $35.5k per year to pay down loans to bring him to the pre-tax level for BME. Not quite enough to pay down the $560k over 10 years he said in his initial post, but even if they total repayment climbed to the astronomical $750k, he could do that in about 21 years without ever having less than the pre-tax income for BME to play with. Sure, there's 7 years of lost BME opportunity cost in medical school and family medicine residency, but he'd still have a number of years as a debt-free attending to make it up even if he took that full 21 years.

And that's assuming he took the average pay for all FM doctors, less than his gender's average. And assuming he'd go into one of the worst paying specialties. And assuming his BME income would somehow magically not be taxed. And that he was taxed far more as a FM physician that he would actually be. And that he was foolish and decided not to take advantage of any loan repayment options. Even with all these handicaps to medicine, it comes out pretty even, and he gets to do "the only thing he would like to do."

Why has this discussion gone for this many pages?

 

[Druggernaut]

I think it is a very valid concern to raise when you're considering attending a school with a COA nearly double what most schools may be, since that directly affects the time it will take for you to reap the benefits of your "investement". But I also think this is something to be determined on an individual basis. For some people, the utility they lose from other the opportunities that offer a more stable financial situation throughout their entire life, is not worth the utility they gain from becoming a doctor and having the loan burden until they are 40 (if we're lucky).

I'd completely agree if this is the OP's real dilemma. I'm in my late 20's, highly educated, and still have to put in a lot of time in the hospital and in the library every week. I live reasonably comfortably, but it's all loans rather than income, I don't get to take vacations or weekends off, and don't get to enjoy a laundry list of other things my less hard-working college dropout friends do. There's a lot about this that sucks, and that first attending payday is still way off in my early thirties. But I like medicine, I get to enjoy satisfaction and challenges from my work that none of my other friends do, and the financial payoff for me is huge (I wouldn't even consider jobs offering under $300k as an attending in the specialty I'm applying to, and that's working forty hours or less). If it wasn't medicine, I'd probably either have found a job paying $50k to maybe $110k that would've required anywhere from a BA to a PhD.

So, while there's a lot about being a medical student that I like, I'm looking forward to the next step as a resident, and life as an attending seems great, living like a student into your thirties also blows. It's still the best option for me, and I have little doubt the long-term financials would still work out in the OP's favor, you're right that the delayed gratification isn't worth it for everyone.

 

[persumas]

I'd completely agree if this is the OP's real dilemma. I'm in my late 20's, highly educated, and still have to put in a lot of time in the hospital and in the library every week. I live reasonably comfortably, but it's all loans rather than income, I don't get to take vacations or weekends off, and don't get to enjoy a laundry list of other things my less hard-working college dropout friends do. There's a lot about this that sucks, and that first attending payday is still way off in my early thirties. But I like medicine, I get to enjoy satisfaction and challenges from my work that none of my other friends do, and the financial payoff for me is huge (I wouldn't even consider jobs offering under $300k as an attending in the specialty I'm applying to, and that's working forty hours or less). If it wasn't medicine, I'd probably either have found a job paying $50k to maybe $110k that would've required anywhere from a BA to a PhD.

So, while there's a lot about being a medical student that I like, I'm looking forward to the next step as a resident, and life as an attending seems great, living like a student into your thirties also blows. It's still the best option for me, and I have little doubt the long-term financials would still work out in the OP's favor, you're right that the delayed gratification isn't worth it for everyone.

+1000. Honestly the most insightful post I have read on this thread. Thanks for sharing! It's always great to hear from those "in the trenches" so to speak.

 

[TheWeeIceMan]

Why has this discussion gone for this many pages?

Pre-allo doesn't take kindly to the implication that medicine may not be the bestest career evah.

 

[HopesandDreams]

There are quite a few people in this thread arguing that in OP's scenario medical school would be a sound financial investment due to the expected salary down the line. However, this may be mistaken for a number of factors, assuming OP already has an engineering job as stated.
1) Money put into savings early on has more time to compound and thus the loss of income during medical training makes a substantial difference http://whitecoatinvestor.com/personal-finance/why-arent-doctors-rich/
2) student loan burden especially with such high CoA
3) Hours worked. - At 60k per 2000 hour year currently, he is actually making only slightly less per hour than what the average internal medicine physician would make taking into account their lifetime salary/life time hours worked. ($30.00/hr vs $34.63/hr ) http://benbrownmd.wordpress.com/

As OP correctly noted in one of his followup posts, the current CoA, interest rates, and lowering reimbursement are an unprecedented situation that the previous generation of physicians did not face. IMO, it would be unwise of him not to take into account finances when making this decision.

That said, I do not believe this decision should be made on pure dollar values but also needs to take into consideration the value of a medical education, which could ultimately lead to other prospects down the line (eg. becoming involved in research that results in the creation of an extremely successful therapeutic, starting a new medical practice and employing other physicians etc.) However, it is very possible that it could not. Furthermore I believe you should also take into account which career would ultimately make you happiest as life is not only about money. Of course, it's understandable that based on your family's finances some people may not have the luxury of choosing less financially viable options, but I believe its also fair to say that either career would at a minimum provide for a decent if not necessarily wealthy lifestyle. I believe the earlier comment from the poster who was told at BU "Have you ever seen a physician on food stamps? " is not too far off target in that respect.

 

[snowman.33]

tufts it is

hold on Tufts is 85K? Let me call AMCAS real quick and drop that from my list before 6/27

 

[DokterMom]

hold on Tufts is 85K? Let me call AMCAS real quick and drop that from my list before 6/27

Wise move @snowman.33
Hope others will carefully consider doing the same. IMO, it's unconscionable.

If OP had not been accepted anywhere, he'd be in a better position than he's in now because he'd be free to apply anywhere next year, free from the stigma of having turned down an acceptance.

 

[snowman.33]

Wise move @snowman.33
Hope others will carefully consider doing the same. IMO, it's unconscionable.

If OP had not been accepted anywhere, he'd be in a better position than he's in now because he'd be free to apply anywhere next year, free from the stigma of having turned down an acceptance.

I was actually kidding when I wrote that post but now I am really considering ringing them up.

 

[coldpheet]

If OP had not been accepted anywhere, he'd be in a better position than he's in now because he'd be free to apply anywhere next year, free from the stigma of having turned down an acceptance.

4 years tuition at Windor SOM in Carib is $50,000 total! Pretty sure they don't care what I've done in my past life. Time to go track down that sunscreen...

 

[Psai]

hold on Tufts is 85K? Let me call AMCAS real quick and drop that from my list before 6/27

That's 340k before interest. It would be wise to think hard before you take out that much.

 

[hmockingbird]

I can't remember the name of the program but my state has something where if you work for a certain number of years in a primary care field in an underserved area (could be inner city or rural), you get help with loan repayment. I believe the amount depends on the number of years you put in. I've heard of this in other states so that might be worth thinking about. (I have thought about doing that myself, but I think I want to do a fellowship and probably wouldn't want to go back to that after working a few years...)

 

[OneTwoThreeFour]

I want to have an objective dialogue about how med students are handling huge sums of debt. My COA is pretty scary, and I want to see if others feel the same way and what their game plan is.

I don't want people to talk me out of it. I want people to say that I'll be able to pay off my debt and live comfortably and I can go ahead with my goals and get rid of this nagging doubt. Instead, the only people who are talking me out of it are people who have actually gone though it.

Listen, I'm in a similar situation as far as absolute total debt. I plugged everything into the AAMC calculator, and it spat out something like 6k a month with a 10 year plan with residency deferral. That's a lot of money to me now, but I am also only making 4k/month pre-taxes and living pretty comfortably in Boston. Given the difference between current and post-residency salary, I am fairly confident I'll be able to figure things out (and, again, this is with an aggressive repayment plan. I have no problem dealing with debt for 15-25 years if need be).
And yes, starting a family, buying a home, and other expenses like that are foreign to me. But what other choice do I have? I know I want to work with people and work in healthcare. I could go after a MSW I guess, or PA school, but the former has even worse financials and the latter is more mid-level than I think I'd feel comfortable with.
So, if you think you'll be happy and fulfilled with your BME job for the next 30/35 years, then go for it. It isn't my job to convince you to become a physician. But--again as someone in a similar spot as far as debt--I don't feel that money isn't standing in my way.
(Also, who cares if you're making 50-100k over the next 35 years? There are so many more important things to care about when making life decisions)

 

[mrh125]

Physicians as a whole have no real issues paying off their loans. However it sounds like you have many more concerns besides just the financial aspect, which is fair. Medicine is not something you should pursue if you have any significant hesitancy. It is a long and hard road, and if you are not passionate about it, you can get burned out like those residents and attendings that tell you to run for the hills.

Wait what?! then how come i know so many physicians are in at least 200k debt from their med school education? saying they have no real issues paying off their loans is ignoring a huge issue physicians face.

 

[Low Flow]

hold on Tufts is 85K? Let me call AMCAS real quick and drop that from my list before 6/27

Look at the cost for any out-of-state private school. With living and everything included, nearly all are around 80k/year, assuming zero financial aid, as in OP's case.

 

[circulus vitios]

I was accepted this cycle c/o 2018. 3.6 gpa, 37 MCAT, BS (biomed E) from Ivy league school. California resident. Accepted at a private school in Boston (only school I got into).

This school is about $85k/yr and I did not receive any financial aid. No aid from family or friends either. With unsubsidized loans at 5.4% and 6.4% interest, I'm looking at $450k in debt by the time I finish a residency (4 yrs).

At a 10 yr repayment period, I would pay 40% of my month salary (assuming $250k/yr salary...probably a generous estimate ) in loan repayment with a total repayment of $560k. I could pay back on an IBR plan and only pay about 15% of my salary, but I would likely pay this off for the rest of my career and total repayment would be $750k.

This just doesn't make sense financially. Being a physician is really the only thing I would like to do, but I don't want to be an indentured servant to do it. Even the best career would turn sour if I feel like I am forced to do it because of suffocating debt.

I'm going to drop my offer. Good luck to whoever is on the waiting list licking their chops. I figure with my degree and undergrad school I can get an interesting job and make a decent salary and not kill myself in the process. I really admire you SDNers who have the guts to follow your dreams, debt and all.

$85k/yr @ average 5.9% interest = $470k at the end of a 4 year residency. Let's assume you'll make a lifetime average of $250k/yr as an attending. That's $174k/yr after federal income taxes, social security, and medicare taxes. If you want to live in California then that's another $20k/yr in taxes, for a take-home of $154k/yr.

Current PAYE: $22.6k/yr for 16 years with a $162k tax bomb ($490k forgiveness taxed at 33%.)
Possible 2015 proposal PAYE: $22.6k/yr for 21 years with no tax bomb.

I have undergrad debt so my total debt load by the end of a 4 year residency will be ~$445k. It ****ing blows a fat one but it's not as bad as you think it will be.

 

[lmn]

Look at the cost for any out-of-state private school. With living and everything included, nearly all are around 80k/year, assuming zero financial aid, as in OP's case.

Very true, but many schools will give most applicants some sort of scholarship/aid. I don't know how much Tufts gives on average, or to what % of its class, but I haven't heard of Tufts being very generous, nor it being very affordable.

 

[Low Flow]

Very true, but many schools will give most applicants some sort of scholarship/aid. I don't know how much Tufts gives on average, or to what % of its class, but I haven't heard of Tufts being very generous, nor it being very affordable.

Yeah from the MSAR it looks as if their % receiving aid is much lower than other schools I'm looking at. Although their average graduating debt doesn't seem much higher than others.

 

[DermViser]

hold on Tufts is 85K? Let me call AMCAS real quick and drop that from my list before 6/27

Both BU and Tufts are greatly overpriced for their medical education.

 

[Low Flow]

Top choice right now for me is the University of Washington. From MSAR, UW's % receiving aid is 91% (Tufts's is 74%) and the average indebtedness is 151k (Tufts's is 191k). Tufts seems far from ideal. Although I'm sure it's a comparable difference between any private/public institution since most attendees at publics are receiving in-state tuition.

 

[sazerac]

Just looked at Tufts COA ~90k a year. That is f'ing ridiculous and should be criminal.

Tufts realizes the only way to pay that off would be to get an MBA as well, and go into hospital administration. To meet this need, Tufts has created the 4 year combined MD MBA degree. Behold, the most expensive degree in America: http://md.tufts.edu/Admissions/Financing-Your-Education/MD-Costs/Cost-of-Attendance-MD-MBA-2014-15

With a COA of $115,000 on the second year alone, I say go big or go home.

Hey, you can save $2,000 if you live in the dorm. That's about 3 weeks of interest when you graduate, lol.

 

[circulus vitios]

Tufts realizes the only way to pay that off would be to get an MBA as well, and go into hospital administration. To meet this need, Tufts has created the 4 year combined MD MBA degree. Behold, the most expensive degree in America: http://md.tufts.edu/Admissions/Financing-Your-Education/MD-Costs/Cost-of-Attendance-MD-MBA-2014-15

With a COA of $115,000 on the second year alone, I say go big or go home.

Hey, you can save $2,000 if you live in the dorm. That's about 3 weeks of interest when you graduate, lol.

I want to start a hospital administrator residency and my own accrediting body to accredit it.

 

[Sea Otter]

Loan forgiveness bro. All the cool kids are doing it.

 

[TheWeeIceMan]

Loan forgiveness bro. All the cool kids are doing it.

None of the cool kids are doing it. No one is doing it or has ever done it.

 

[TheBatman]

Wait Someone worked extremely hard for 4 years, stressed about finals and ultimately the MCAT just to give it all up? I have respect for you. Good Luck with your future goals.

 

[coldpheet]

Wait Someone worked extremely hard for 4 years, stressed about finals and ultimately the MCAT just to give it all up? I have respect for you. Good Luck with your future goals.

what's with these comments? 'What a waste of four years', 'stressed about finals'. Is stressing about finals unique only to premeds? Is a bachelors degree worthless if you don't parlay it into a medical school admissions offer?

I still have a BS with a good GPA in a sought after field from a HYP school. Yikes

 

[TheBatman]

what's with these comments? 'What a waste of four years', 'stressed about finals'. Is stressing about finals unique only to premeds? Is a bachelors degree worthless if you don't parlay it into a medical school admissions offer?

I still have a BS with a good GPA in a sought after field from a HYP school. Yikes

I'm going devote four years of my life to be a NAVY Seal. I'll train EVERY single day, have a clean strict diet and kiss some ass on the way. I get through hell week and i'm invited to train to be a NAVY seal. I decide it's not something I want to do because i'll spend too much time away from my family. I mean it wasn't a waste of four years because there are other people in the military that have to work out and spend time away from their family. So why are people telling me I wasted four years? I've attained a lot of knowledge these past four years. Hey you know what with my current shape i'll just become an Army Ranger because I have plenty of sought after skills.

 

[StBernardsRule]

wat

 

[coldpheet]

I'm going devote four years of my life to be a NAVY Seal. I'll train EVERY single day, have a clean strict diet and kiss some ass on the way. I get through hell week and i'm invited to train to be a NAVY seal. I decide it's not something I want to do because i'll spend too much time away from my family. I mean it wasn't a waste of four years because there are other people in the military that have to work out and spend time away from their family. So why are people telling me I wasted four years I've attained a lot of knowledge on the way. Hey you know what with my current shape i'll just become an Army Ranger because I have plenty of sought after skills.

Your analogy would work better if I went through medical school (much more specialized than undergrad) and decided I didn't want to be a doctor.

I enjoyed undergrad and explored a lot of departments and careers. I didn't choose to 'become a premed' until senior year. Hence the two gap years. I didn't have a clean strict diet or kiss ass along the way

 

[mehc012]

Do you mean SF Bay Area? If so, I assume you were living with parents if you were at all comfortable on $60K per year. Or living with multiple roommates / like a college student, etc. That kind of paycheck doesn't bring you a comfortable life in that kind of location...

This is so incredibly exaggerated that it makes my skin crawl. $60k is plenty to be comfortable anywhere...and the Bay is diverse/well connected enough that there are cheap-nice, cheap-scary, expensive-nice, expensive-closet, etc., all within public transit of where you need to be.

 

[DokterMom]

This is so incredibly exaggerated that it makes my skin crawl. $60k is plenty to be comfortable anywhere...and the Bay is diverse/well connected enough that there are cheap-nice, cheap-scary, expensive-nice, expensive-closet, etc., all within public transit of where you need to be.

I'm very curious to know -- Where's the cheap-nice within public transit and reasonable commute-time?

 

[TheWeeIceMan]

I'm going devote four years of my life to be a NAVY Seal. I'll train EVERY single day, have a clean strict diet and kiss some ass on the way. I get through hell week and i'm invited to train to be a NAVY seal. I decide it's not something I want to do because i'll spend too much time away from my family. I mean it wasn't a waste of four years because there are other people in the military that have to work out and spend time away from their family. So why are people telling me I wasted four years? I've attained a lot of knowledge these past four years. Hey you know what with my current shape i'll just become an Army Ranger because I have plenty of sought after skills.

What a hilariously bad analogy. C'mon man.

 

[PL198]

Lol, someone with a bachelor's in biomed E is useless? I'm not sure what you all think the average person that doesn't go to medical school goes to college for..... It's not like OP majored in pottery or basket-weaving... Clearly the rain of illogical pre-med replies has begun. I'd say biomed E is easily one of the top things a pre-med can major in, because if you don't get into med school or choose not to go to med school, you still have a promising career....

Seriously, if you guys would think about the practicality of what you are saying before you say it, you'd save yourself and others a lot of BS. Brb not going to college unless going to med school.

Also Triple lolz at the dude saying " I'll just become an Army Ranger." You clearly have 0 idea how the special forces work. " Oh I can't be Lebron James, I'm just going to be Kevin Durant instead." yeah ok buddy. I suppose you'll just end up settling for neurosurgery too? -checks status- pre-med. How surprising.

Also: OP you da man

 

[mehc012]

I'm very curious to know -- Where's the cheap-nice within public transit and reasonable commute-time?

Depends on where you're commuting to...
But seriously, not even being snarky, there are a lot of jobs not-in-SF. Stanford and the hospital, silicon valley for tech, Fremont for biomed, etc. It's not like NYC where the jobs are all in the city, and the outlying cities/towns/burbs exist mainly just for people to live in.
Besides, the whole point of 'you can live on less than you think' is that you suck it up and realize that most of your expenses could be cut lower...the more corrolaries you add, the less likely you are going to be able to also find cheap...nice AND in the city AND close to your job AND cheap is going to be far harder to find than cheap and nice, or close to your job and cheap, or close to your job and nice.

 

[sazerac]

None of the cool kids are doing it. No one is doing it or has ever done it.

Actually that isn't true. In the event if permanent disability, the government does forgive student loans instantly, and then you get hit with the tax bomb on the phantom income.

There have been a few sad stories of real people who have already been hit with the double-whammy of disability and a loan forgiveness tax bill (and no ability to work and pay it off).

The road to hell is paved with government's good intentions, I guess.

 

[correctlywrong]

Actually that isn't true. In the event if permanent disability, the government does forgive student loans instantly, and then you get hit with the tax bomb on the phantom income.

There have been a few sad stories of real people who have already been hit with the double-whammy of disability and a loan forgiveness tax bill (and no ability to work and pay it off).

The road to hell is paved with government's good intentions, I guess.

That tax bomb... you gotta read the fine print. It only hurts if you have assets. If you have no assets, and you get a loan forgiveness, you don't have to pay taxes on the phantom income. My brother had a $50,000 student loan debt forgiven due to permanent disability. They came at him for the taxes on it as income. He pointed out the section in the 1040 instruction book that explains that you only have to report it as income if your assets are greater than your liabilities. If you are insolvent, as he was, it doesn't apply. He didn't have to pay $10,000 in taxes, and it stood up to an audit.

Of course, the insolvency that saved him that bill also had him living in my guest room for two years, so there is that.

 

[TheBatman]

What a hilariously bad analogy. C'mon man.

green with envy eh?

 

[atomi]

If you can be happy doing something else, do something else. Medicine is "worth it" only if you can't fathom doing anything else.

I could not agree more. While I did not have to take loans and went to a relatively "affordable" school, it still cost me $200k out of pocket and I'm nearly broke now. If I had not gone I would own my house and have 100k+ in the bank. Going one half million dollars into debt to do this is madness. What if you don't like it? Bye Bye life.

OP you made the right choice. Med school is unfortunately not affordable for everybody. People who think it is are kidding themselves. It's, with a few exceptions, a game for the children of the rich.

 

[UCSD1984]

I was accepted this cycle c/o 2018. 3.6 gpa, 37 MCAT, BS (biomed E) from Ivy league school. California resident. Accepted at a private school in Boston (only school I got into).

This school is about $85k/yr and I did not receive any financial aid. No aid from family or friends either. With unsubsidized loans at 5.4% and 6.4% interest, I'm looking at $450k in debt by the time I finish a residency (4 yrs).

At a 10 yr repayment period, I would pay 40% of my month salary (assuming $250k/yr salary...probably a generous estimate ) in loan repayment with a total repayment of $560k. I could pay back on an IBR plan and only pay about 15% of my salary, but I would likely pay this off for the rest of my career and total repayment would be $750k.

This just doesn't make sense financially. Being a physician is really the only thing I would like to do, but I don't want to be an indentured servant to do it. Even the best career would turn sour if I feel like I am forced to do it because of suffocating debt.

I'm going to drop my offer. Good luck to whoever is on the waiting list licking their chops. I figure with my degree and undergrad school I can get an interesting job and make a decent salary and not kill myself in the process. I really admire you SDNers who have the guts to follow your dreams, debt and all.

My friend, I'm starting dental school at a private institution beginning in August (class of 2018). I know this is the MD thread, but please continue reading.

I just signed my promissory note for year 1. Grand total equals to $110,000. By the end of my 4th year, I'll be in debt roughly $400-450,000. Is that a lot? Abso-freaking-lutely. I went from floating on cloud 9 (after receiving my acceptance) to pondering the lifestyle of my future. Mind you, I'm going to be 30 years old when I start my first year this coming August.

Am I going to withdraw my offer? HELL NO. Because what else can I possibly do with my life besides that in which I am insanely passionate about? I love dentistry, and I always will. 500,000, ten million, it matters not.

Please ask yourself; "Can I see myself doing something else?" Being a doctor is a phenomenal responsibility and career. You strived for the best and you obtained it. What else would you do? Research? Pharmacy? PA? I'm willing to bet that nothing else on this entire PLANET will fulfill you more than what you've been striving for your entire life.

Don't get me wrong; 400+k is a tremendous debt. Will it end your dreams of living comfortably? No. Will it kill you? Not even close. It'll merely take a bit longer to get rid of.

Take some time to meditate on your decision before you make it. You may be the one responsible for saving many lives in your career. Money comes and goes, my friend. You WILL live comfortable and maybe even lavishly, it simply won't be right after graduation.

I wish you nothing but the best.

 

[mvenus929]

My friend, I'm starting dental school at a private institution beginning in August (class of 2018). I know this is the MD thread, but please continue reading..

No offense, but since dental practices are generally cash-based, you don't have to worry as much about your reimbursements going down. Physicians do, especially with the war on physicians brewing as it is now. You also start making money as soon as you graduate dental school, while we get to watch our loans continue to grow for another 3-7 years before we can really start paying them off.

There is absolutely reason to question going into this field questioning money. Most of us don't because we can't imagine doing anything else, or being happy doing anything else, and we recognize the sacrifices required to pursue medicine. But, it's not right for all, and the sticker shock may just force some of those others to evaluate their life plan.

 

[circulus vitios]

Please ask yourself; "Can I see myself doing something else?" Being a doctor is a phenomenal responsibility and career. You strived for the best and you obtained it. What else would you do? Research? Pharmacy? PA? I'm willing to bet that nothing else on this entire PLANET will fulfill you more than what you've been striving for your entire life.

That's not a good way to look at it. Eventually you'll grow tired and bored of medicine or dentistry. You should be asking yourself if you can put up with the lifestyle, because that's all you will have when you're bored.