What Are Carib Schools Going To Do??

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SyrianHero

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There has been a lot of talk about how most IMGs from Caribbean medical schools won't be able to get residency spots in the US after 2017 because of the residency crunch, but what do you think these Caribbean schools are going to do in response to this? I can't imagine a multi-million dollar industry just giving up and shutting down (which is what they'll have to do if the US doesn't have residency spots for their graduates).

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There has been a lot of talk about how most IMGs from Caribbean medical schools won't be able to get residency spots in the US after 2017 because of the residency crunch, but what do you think these Caribbean schools are going to do in response to this? I can't imagine a multi-million dollar industry just giving up and shutting down (which is what they'll have to do if the US doesn't have residency spots for their graduates).

Easy. Build residencies in the Caribbean.
 
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If I was in charge of a place like Ross or SGU, I would start failing a lot more of my students than usual to preserve my yield.

I would also pay IMG program directors in the US to take IMGs, much like they pay hospital administrators today to take 3rd year IMG students on rotations (mostly in New York City). Or simply purchase a hospital and compel the program directors to rank only IMGs from my own school.
 
There has been a lot of talk about how most IMGs from Caribbean medical schools won't be able to get residency spots in the US after 2017 because of the residency crunch, but what do you think these Caribbean schools are going to do in response to this? I can't imagine a multi-million dollar industry just giving up and shutting down (which is what they'll have to do if the US doesn't have residency spots for their graduates).

I think IMG's will be fine. There are a lot of PC residencies in rural and unpopular areas that they can fill. SGU's match list is pretty decent, and it is a good LAST case scenario. There will always be people who want to be physicians but can't get into US schools. I have numerous friends that went to the Caribb and are currently successful physicians in top hospitals.
 
Idk would they really close down though? The U.S. is just one country, I know that a lot of their students are from the U.S. but wouldn't a lot of them also be from other countries as well, heck, maybe even students from their own country lol they may lose some customers but I'm sure theirs still people who will be attending.

And what if they actually did the opposite of what sazerac said and they just accepted everybody and their mother no matter how bad of an applicant they are in order to keep the money rolling in.
 
So this week we had the URM quota completed and now we have the IMG quota for the week. Bravo pre-allo! Bravo!
 
I think IMG's will be fine. There are a lot of PC residencies in rural and unpopular areas that they can fill. SGU's match list is pretty decent, and it is a good LAST case scenario. There will always be people who want to be physicians but can't get into US schools. I have numerous friends that went to the Caribb and are currently successful physicians in top hospitals.

I like your signature! Totally gonna steal it when I'm a medical student :cool:


So this week we had the URM quota completed and now we have the IMG quota for the week. Bravo pre-allo! Bravo!

:rofl: all we need is MD vs DO and we're set!
 
There's this person I know and I think he's pretty smart... Thing I don't understand is why he chose to go to a Caribbean school...
 
I like your signature! Totally gonna steal it when I'm a medical student :cool:




:rofl: all we need is MD vs DO and we're set!

I am still pre-med, not a med student until matriculation. Otherwise, its a faux paus, hate when people change their SDN to medical student before starting.
 
If I was in charge of a place like Ross or SGU, I would start failing a lot more of my students than usual to preserve my yield.

I would also pay IMG program directors in the US to take IMGs, much like they pay hospital administrators today to take 3rd year IMG students on rotations (mostly in New York City). Or simply purchase a hospital and compel the program directors to rank only IMGs from my own school.

Already done... There are still hospitals that don't participate in the match at all and only take IMGs because of relationships with the big carib schools. Even if, by the increase in AMGs, IMGs are forced out of the match, small hospitals that reap the profits of caribbean students rotating, will still be compelled to accept them outside the match system to keep those profits alive.
 
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I think IMG's will be fine. There are a lot of PC residencies in rural and unpopular areas that they can fill. SGU's match list is pretty decent, and it is a good LAST case scenario. There will always be people who want to be physicians but can't get into US schools. I have numerous friends that went to the Caribb and are currently successful physicians in top hospitals.

Do you have a source for that? The whole point of this discussion is that there aren't really any residencies left that anybody can fill after the match and then the SOAP. I don't think even family medicine lasted through wednesday this year.

The only places left are going to be from those AMGs who would rather not have a residency at all than have an undesirable residency. Which, when you are staring down $300,000 in debt, is a questionable career move.

Sure in the past there were enough residencies to go around. But follow the numbers. There simply aren't enough job slots left for Americans educated in America to all get residencies in 2017, and that's not even taking the IMGs into account AT ALL.
 
Do you have a source for that? The whole point of this discussion is that there aren't really any residencies left that anybody can fill after the match and then the SOAP. I don't think even family medicine lasted through wednesday this year.

The only places left are going to be from those AMGs who would rather not have a residency at all than have an undesirable residency. Which, when you are staring down $300,000 in debt, is a questionable career move.

Sure in the past there were enough residencies to go around. But follow the numbers. There simply aren't enough job slots left for Americans educated in America to all get residencies in 2017, and that's not even taking the IMGs into account AT ALL.

With the bill (https://www.aamc.org/newsroom/newsreleases/330948/031413.html) and the ACA there will be a spike in PC residencies. Most will be in underserved populations. I think IMG's with good scores won't have too much problems, IMO.

http://www.arkansasmedicalnews.com/...-increase-in-primary-care-physicians-cms-1133
 
The hospitals that only take IMGs aren't necessarily good places to actually train :/
 
There's this person I know and I think he's pretty smart... Thing I don't understand is why he chose to go to a Caribbean school...

Well tuition is much lower for one thing, and also since people who matriculate there generally didn't get into a US mainland medical school, is it fair to say the competition is less?

I mean of course they're be harder working, since everybody wants to land an internship/residency in the states, but their grades will probably be lower as well. By no means do I say that good grades means a better doctor, but since people score lower there, shouldn't it be easier to "stand out" -- which definitely helps when applying to programs.

Or is my reasoning flawed? Just trying to understand this guy's decision.
 
Carib schools are going to keep taking $ from naive pre-meds (those who aren't even thinking about residency spots, etc.), IMO.
 
With the bill (https://www.aamc.org/newsroom/newsreleases/330948/031413.html) and the ACA there will be a spike in PC residencies. Most will be in underserved populations. I think IMG's with good scores won't have too much problems, IMO.

http://www.arkansasmedicalnews.com/...-increase-in-primary-care-physicians-cms-1133

So, with the increased residency positions, is it going to be harder or easier for IMGs from the Carib schools to get US residency spots in the future (2017 and after)?
 
So, with the increased residency positions, is it going to be harder or easier for IMGs from the Carib schools to get US residency spots in the future (2017 and after)?

More residencies in undesired locations will allow IMG's more opportunities to match. But this is just my guess, I am just a pre-med, what do I know? :)
 
Well tuition is much lower for one thing, and also since people who matriculate there generally didn't get into a US mainland medical school, is it fair to say the competition is less?

I mean of course they're be harder working, since everybody wants to land an internship/residency in the states, but their grades will probably be lower as well. By no means do I say that good grades means a better doctor, but since people score lower there, shouldn't it be easier to "stand out" -- which definitely helps when applying to programs.

Or is my reasoning flawed? Just trying to understand this guy's decision.

I mean I knew him for a few years and I think he performed well on his undergraduate exams and everything. Is the only reason he's going to a Caribbean school due to his low exam scores? Or does someone "choose" to go there sometimes..?
 
Maybe the Caribbean governments will pump money into some in-country residency programs, but then they would probably start giving preference to natives. Who knows?

The question is... would American employers hire people from these residencies?
 
You need a residency in the US in order to be licensed in the US. So residencies abroad would not be enough... this is a common problem for immigrant physicians to the US who either cannot practice in the US or toil for years to get a US residency so that they can be licensed here.

The other problem with off-shore residencies would be the dearth of patients in those places, unless medical tourism takes hold and people go off shore to be treated by "American doctors" for elective procedures such as cosmetic surgery and joint replacement.
 
You need a residency in the US in order to be licensed in the US.

Well, if you consider Canada to be the US, this is true.:p

Actually it isn't, even excluding the Canada thing. It's an SDN truth, not a real truth. Licensing is by state, not federal, and states can and do set up special pathways for a small number of physicians to be licensed after foreign training. These are usually, but not always, senior professor-types. I know several of them. Also, not to quibble about wording, but even excluding all of this, the usual rules relate to post-graduate training, not "residency." It is quite possible to do a residency outside the US, a fellowship in the US (or Canada...) and be licensed to practice medicine in the US. All of this is handled state by state. I know more than a few neonatologists and other pedi specialists who are licensed but never did a US residency
 
Maybe the Caribbean governments will pump money into some in-country residency programs, but then they would probably start giving preference to natives. Who knows?

The question is... would American employers hire people from these residencies?

No and no. Furthermore with completing an AOA or ACGME ( they're combining) residency then you cannot practice in the states.
 
Personally I think Carib institutes will continue to just do fine. Plenty of people apply to schools not even in the top 4 without any attempt to research post-graduate expectations. This not to mention plenty of Canadians can still attend and inflate the average stats of these schools to make them seem hard to get into.
 
Exclusive spots available in the People's Republic of Cuba.
 
The big Caribbean schools will do what the small Caribbean schools have been doing. The small Caribbean schools might die off.
 
Even if it becomes impossible to get a residency as a graduate from a Caribbean school I don't see much happening to those schools. The students who go there do so out of desperation or because they're really, really clueless about medical education ("OMG if I apply only to this school I don't need to take the MCAT! And it's stats are so low I'll get in for sure! And it's on a TROPICAL ISLAND! I don't know why more people don't apply here!") I actually know more people who went to Caribbean schools than US schools. Many of those people didn't even bother to look at DO options. I know one guy who's applying right now and is deadset on going to Ross and isn't even considering DO schools. I feel like I should warn him what he's getting into, but it's pretty obvious he doesn't want to know.

Anyway, my point is that the people who go to Caribbean schools usually aren't the type of people who carefully research their options or are willing to give serious weight to undesirable facts about a school. Also, it's not like it will become totally impossible for Caribbean grads to get into US residencies. It may become realistically impossible, but I'm sure there will be at least 1-2 students per year who manage to pull it off and that'll be enough for schools to make most of the same boasts as before, and will also ensure that many kids still enroll totally confident in the idea that they'll be the ones who beat the trend.
 
Easy: continue to take the money of gullible and/or naive Americans with sub-par stats, while providing little to nothing in return.
 
Do you have a source for that? The whole point of this discussion is that there aren't really any residencies left that anybody can fill after the match and then the SOAP. I don't think even family medicine lasted through wednesday this year.

The only places left are going to be from those AMGs who would rather not have a residency at all than have an undesirable residency. Which, when you are staring down $300,000 in debt, is a questionable career move.

Sure in the past there were enough residencies to go around. But follow the numbers. There simply aren't enough job slots left for Americans educated in America to all get residencies in 2017, and that's not even taking the IMGs into account AT ALL.

My brother's residency at PSU intentionally saved a few spots for IMG students; in fact, his chief resident was a Caribbean grad. I would imagine they're not alone in saving a few spots for IMGs.
 
No and no. Furthermore with completing an AOA or ACGME ( they're combining) residency then you cannot practice in the states.

You need a residency in the US in order to be licensed in the US. So residencies abroad would not be enough... this is a common problem for immigrant physicians to the US who either cannot practice in the US or toil for years to get a US residency so that they can be licensed here.

The other problem with off-shore residencies would be the dearth of patients in those places, unless medical tourism takes hold and people go off shore to be treated by "American doctors" for elective procedures such as cosmetic surgery and joint replacement.

Does Puerto Rico count as "US" or "Foreign"?
 
There's been talk of allowing LCME to accredit for profit schools in the states. I wonder if that is just a first slow step to accreditation of Caribbean schools. 1st to for-profits, then to schools in foreign locations with ownership and/or sister schools in the US or something. Wouldn't be surprised.
 
Well you've gone through the application cycle? That counts as hell to me lol

No. The problem is if you list yourself as a med student people reading the post may assume you know something about being in med school, give you more credibility on that topic. And these designations are really to allow other people to gauge where you are in the process when taking your advice, not for your own status.
 
...
And what if they actually did the opposite of what sazerac said and they just accepted everybody and their mother no matter how bad of an applicant they are in order to keep the money rolling in.

this is what I expect to happen over the next couple of years. Get every last drop of milk out of that cow before it dies.
 
With the bill (https://www.aamc.org/newsroom/newsreleases/330948/031413.html) and the ACA there will be a spike in PC residencies. Most will be in underserved populations. I think IMG's with good scores won't have too much problems, IMO.

http://www.arkansasmedicalnews.com/...-increase-in-primary-care-physicians-cms-1133

Bills are meaningless until they pass. Most won't. Increasing residency slots significantly is expensive and thus not popular with taxpayers. And though the AAMC talks a big game, they were the ones pushing for US med school grad numbers to grow to fill all the existing residency slots in the first place, so I wouldn't bank on this. There's far more credible discussion going on regarding slashing GME funding, not spending more.
 
There has been a lot of talk about how most IMGs from Caribbean medical schools won't be able to get residency spots in the US after 2017 because of the residency crunch, but what do you think these Caribbean schools are going to do in response to this? I can't imagine a multi-million dollar industry just giving up and shutting down (which is what they'll have to do if the US doesn't have residency spots for their graduates).

What makes you think they'll do anything? It's not like their current business model is founded on the idea that their students will actually get into residency and become physicians. (It's not.) All they need is for at least ONE person to get in most years -- enough that they can claim to get people into residency here most years. They then make sure to eliminate the VAST majority of their class prior to graduation and...PROFIT! Business as usual.

All they need is a hope. A spark. That's what they are selling.

They're a lot like the Wizard:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4snZnrpa9FU[/youtube]


And there's a sucker born every minute!
 
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What makes you think they'll do anything? It's not like their current business model is founded on the idea that their students will actually get into residency and become physicians. (It's not.) All they need is for at least ONE person to get in most years -- enough that they can claim to get people into residency here most years. ...
And there's a sucker born every minute!

much like a slot machine, they need to show a certain level of payout to maximize the number of players. There will always be a few who are desperate enough to invest hundreds of thousands on horrible odds, but the Caribbean as a group depends on a better rate of return than this. If the rate of residency placement drops too low, the smaller players will quickly fall out of the picture. At the end of the road, if the rate reaches single digits, it will be hard for any to stay afloat.

Also bear in mind that two things are working against offshore schools. Not only fewer residency seats going to IMGs but also the qualifications of applicants. as the number of US med student rises, more and more people who would have previously needed to apply to the Caribbean will get into US schools. So assuming that that's the top x% of the Caribbean applicant pool, then the entering stats of Caribbean students will be dropping each year. Having a less and less competitive student body at a time when things are getting more competitive is the recipe for a death spiral.
 
much like a slot machine, they need to show a certain level of payout to maximize the number of players. There will always be a few who are desperate enough to invest hundreds of thousands on horrible odds, but the Caribbean as a group depends on a better rate of return than this. If the rate of residency placement drops too low, the smaller players will quickly fall out of the picture. At the end of the road, if the rate reaches single digits, it will be hard for any to stay afloat.

Also bear in mind that two things are working against offshore schools. Not only fewer residency seats going to IMGs but also the qualifications of applicants. as the number of US med student rises, more and more people who would have previously needed to apply to the Caribbean will get into US schools. So assuming that that's the top x% of the Caribbean applicant pool, then the entering stats of Caribbean students will be dropping each year. Having a less and less competitive student body at a time when things are getting more competitive is the recipe for a death spiral.

This is true. I exaggerated a bit, but the fact is that Carib programs have done a great job of masking their poor stats in the past. What's to say they won't find other ways to make themselves look viable? They could buy themselves a couple of yrs by simply neglecting to update match lists or by combining match lists across years (e.g., "our former graduates are currently in residency programs in...." instead of "the class of 2013..."). But it is true that their avg numbers should drop as US programs get larger -- that is, unless MD applicants keep getting more and more competitive on average (as has been the trend over the past decade).
 
This is true. I exaggerated a bit, but the fact is that Carib programs have done a great job of masking their poor stats in the past. What's to say they won't find other ways to make themselves look viable? They could buy themselves a couple of yrs by simply neglecting to update match lists or by combining match lists across years (e.g., "our former graduates are currently in residency programs in...." instead of "the class of 2013..."). But it is true that their avg numbers should drop as US programs get larger -- that is, unless MD applicants keep getting more and more competitive on average (as has been the trend over the past decade).

There will be a lag between when they stop getting a decent match rate and when people stop applying. But that only delays the inevitable.
 
Bills are meaningless until they pass. Most won't. Increasing residency slots significantly is expensive and thus not popular with taxpayers. And though the AAMC talks a big game, they were the ones pushing for US med school grad numbers to grow to fill all the existing residency slots in the first place, so I wouldn't bank on this. There's far more credible discussion going on regarding slashing GME funding, not spending more.

I agree with you 99.9% of the time Law2Doc, but I have one caveat with this post. Expanding residency slots is not expensive. Just forgoing a single stealth bomber (as in ONE) could fund 10,000 slots for a year if you assume that it costs 100,000 to fund a resident's education for one year.
 
I agree with you 99.9% of the time Law2Doc, but I have one caveat with this post. Expanding residency slots is not expensive. Just forgoing a single stealth bomber (as in ONE) could fund 10,000 slots for a year if you assume that it costs 100,000 to fund a resident's education for one year.

Or one drone over LA?
 
I think there will always be people that are desperate enough to get an MD that they will go to Caribbean schools. Hopefully there will be an increase in residency spots such that the student's desperation does not result in financial failure.

Survivor DO
 
I agree with you 99.9% of the time Law2Doc...

this is the scariest thing I've ever read on SDN. :laugh:

The public is willing to spend money for their defense, regardless of how expensive or impractical. We can always find money for a drone or death star project in the budget and nobody to the right of Ralph Nader will bat an eye. However John and Jane Q Public are not willing to spend their hard earn dollars to help subsidize another "rich doctor's" training. So yes, residency slots are hugely expensive compared to other things the public isnt keen on paying for to start with.
 
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