MD What are mah chances? cGPA 3.4 / sGPA ~2.4 / MCAT 28 (PS9/VR9/BS10)

[Susanoo]

Asian-American male.

-Your cumulative and science GPA (following AMCAS or AACOMAS calculation standards, as applicable)
cGPA: 3.4 / sGPA: ~2.4
I haven't calculated my BCMP in a while so this is probably inaccurate but still close to what my actual science GPA is.

-Your MCAT score (if available)
28, first attempt. PS:9, VR:9, BS:10.

-Clinical volunteer activities
Just started a few weeks ago at Hospice, not that many hours.

-Physician shadowing (include specialties and total hours)
None, had it set up and the doctor wanted more paper work officially from my school, etc.

-Research
None, starting soon, but this won't be on my application for this cycle, which is almost over anyways.

-Nonclinical volunteer activities
None.

-Letters of recommendation.
1 from a science professor I received an A in her class. Should be 2 but my other professor passed away, and he was my favorite professor too, I was supposed to start researching with him this past summer....... :'(

-Extracurriculars.
Certified personal trainer.
Avid pianist.
Been on two study abroad trips.
Other random hobbies like advanced scuba diving certification and such that I doubt I could even mention.

-Employment
Worked in retail briefly, about two semesters at Abercrombie.
Also worked as a science and math tutor for a semester.

Yeah, my application looks dismal, it almost doesn't even look like I have a real reason to try to apply. I am strongly considering doing an SMP. I am retaking my MCAT in January just to see what score I can get, I am confident I can break 30, and then some. But we will see.

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[Jamie561]

Asian-American male.

-Your cumulative and science GPA (following AMCAS or AACOMAS calculation standards, as applicable)
cGPA: 3.4 / sGPA: ~2.4
I haven't calculated my BCMP in a while so this is probably inaccurate but still close to what my actual science GPA is.

-Your MCAT score (if available)
28, first attempt. PS:9, VR:9, BS:10.

-Clinical volunteer activities
Just started a few weeks ago at Hospice, not that many hours.

-Physician shadowing (include specialties and total hours)
None, had it set up and the doctor wanted more paper work officially from my school, etc.

-Research
None, starting soon, but this won't be on my application for this cycle, which is almost over anyways.

-Nonclinical volunteer activities
None.

-Letters of recommendation.
1 from a science professor I received an A in her class. Should be 2 but my other professor passed away, and he was my favorite professor too, I was supposed to start researching with him this past summer....... :'(

-Extracurriculars.
Certified personal trainer.
Avid pianist.
Been on two study abroad trips.
Other random hobbies like advanced scuba diving certification and such that I doubt I could even mention.

-Employment
Worked in retail briefly, about two semesters at Abercrombie.
Also worked as a science and math tutor for a semester.

Yeah, my application looks dismal, it almost doesn't even look like I have a real reason to try to apply. I am strongly considering doing an SMP. I am retaking my MCAT in January just to see what score I can get, I am confident I can break 30, and then some. But we will see.

First off, MD is a very small possibility currently given your stats. DO is what you should aim for once you get good ECs (research, volunteering) and get shadowing in. Dat sGPA also needs to be brought up. Good luck.

 

[edgerock24]

@Susanoo
No shot at all for MD with that low sGPA unfortunately.

You'd really be in much better shape if you got your sGPA 3.0+ for DO (retake a few classes).

I'm curious: how did you do so well on the MCAT considering your sGPA is so low? Also, you do not need to retake the MCAT if you plan to apply DO only (which you should based on your circumstances).

 

[Susanoo]

Hey all, thanks for the replies, and I appreciate your honesty!

@Jamie561: I would really prefer not to go DO, for my own reasons (I can list them if you want), so my plan is either MD schools in the US (won't go Caribbean) or do a masters program, like the SMP at Georgetown. Hopefully, my sGPA isn't too low for that. I'll probably apply to a few SMP's. I may apply to around 5 MD schools, the lower end ones (lower end meaning lower requirements), not expecting an acceptance. I wouldn't accept somebody with my stats if I was on an admissions committee for a medical school.

@edgerock24: I didn't think a 28 was good? My verbal score may be high (I was scoring 10's on all my full lengths, so that sucks that I got a 9 on the real thing lol) because I literally read and write every single day, I write on forums and I read books unrelated to school every day, for example, right now I am reading The Story Of Philosophy by Will Durant. I just read for fun. I actually genuinely enjoy reading and writing, I don't really gain anything from doing so.

My major is science based, so I imagine that my biological sciences score being good (scored 10's on all my full lengths) was inevitable. My physical sciences is okay, I cannot explain why it is low or high. I was scoring largely 7-8's on all my full lengths for the physical sciences section. I think I have fairly good critical thinking skills too, I have had friends comment on this and my cousin also told me this, he scored in the 99th percentile on the SATs and he commented that the way I look at situations or analyze things is quite logical and coherent.

My sGPA might be a little misleading, because it is sort of the opposite reason of most people with low sGPA's. My beginning courses in my first two years of college were largely C's (I think almost all C's, and I failed two math courses), which has permanently brought down my sGPA. I have done better in my upper level courses for the most part, having only received 2 C's in my latter years in college (1 in biochemistry and 1 in immunology).

I am already scheduled to retake the MCAT, I just want to see what score I can get, it will already be past the deadline for this application cycle for MD or DO schools anyways. It might increase my chances of getting into a masters program, although I think a 28 is sufficient, but I do not know how much my low sGPA will bring my chances down. Mainly though, I am just curious how much I can max my score out. I literally scored 28 on the two practice full lengths that I took the day before the MCAT, so I pretty much hit 28 the day before, and had more room for improvement, I am confident I could have broken 30 if I had another month.

I forgot to mention that I have two majors and two minors. None of them are special, but they should make me look diverse.

 

[gyngyn]

We really don't care much about majors (or minors). It's good that you care, though.
What is your state of residence?

We will expect 30 on a retake anyway (even without studying). In order to make it worth your while you need to do much better (unless you are in TX, apparently!)

 

[Susanoo]

I currently reside in Florida, but I will probably apply out of state too.

 

[gyngyn]

I currently reside in Florida, but I will probably apply out of state too.

Your best bet for MD will be all your public state schools. If you apply OOS, I can only recommend DO.

 

[Susanoo]

Your best bet for MD will be all your public state schools. If you apply OOS, I can only recommend DO.

I think I must be missing information regarding applying, is it easier to get accepted into a school if it is in your current state of residence, or are they more lenient with your stats when applying?... Why is that?

 

[gyngyn]

I think I must be missing information regarding applying, is it easier to get accepted into a school if it is in your current state of residence, or are they more lenient with your stats when applying?... Why is that?

Tuition at public schools is subsidized by the public even more than it is at private schools, thus, the lower tuition for IS students. The taxpayers want to pay for doctors who are likely to stay in the state. Almost all state schools are more likely to accept IS applicants over OOS applicants with similar characteristics.

 

[Susanoo]

Tuition at public schools is subsidized by the public even more than it is at private schools, thus, the lower tuition for IS students. The taxpayers want to pay for doctors who are likely to stay in the state. Almost all state schools are more likely to accept IS applicants over OOS applicants with similar characteristics.

Thank you for the clarification.

 

[Goro]

A 2.4 sGPA will be lethal at any MD school. Strongly recommend SMP, and retake MCAT. You'll need to ace that too (>33).

 

[Zelda840]

IMHO, your sGPA and lack of clinical experience/shadowing/non-clinical volunteering are way more lethal than a 28 mcat. I'm confused as to why the retake is your focus.

 

[Susanoo]

So, I just calculated my BCMP (science) GPA and it is about 2.8. Not sure if this changes anything or not. I still have 2 semesters to raise it too, although that will not affect this application cycle. I guess it was a lot higher than the last time I calculated it, it was around 2.2 or 2.4 the last time I calculated it.

It looks like I am simply applying to the MD schools of my state of residence and special masters programs, if no MD schools accept me than I will try to do the SMP. If all the SMPs reject me then I will cry.

 

[Kochanie]

Susanoo, didn't we talk a few months back about how you didn't know how to study? Why ruin your chances of medical school by entering an SMP unprepared? Take a few classes at a local CC/state school before doing something so drastic. I know if I were to enter an SMP now, I'd probably fail out.

 

[Saxappeal1]

@Susanoo whether iti s a 2.4 or a 2.8, you are still in the same up the creek without a paddle scenario, especially for MD. Are you open to DO? They reward reinvention more so than MD does. Also, your stats wouldn't earn any points in Florida, trust me I'm a Florida resident- I still have no Florida MD IIs with a 3.5/3.35/30 after over a month of waiting. My advice? Retake any C or below courses, and apply DO. To have the MD route make ANY sense at all, you wouldn't only needto ace it, you would also still probably need to retake your MCAT and get a 30+, and that's a tough job.

 

[Susanoo]

Susanoo, didn't we talk a few months back about how you didn't know how to study? Why ruin your chances of medical school by entering an SMP unprepared? Take a few classes at a local CC/state school before doing something so drastic. I know if I were to enter an SMP now, I'd probably fail out.

Hey, yeah! I am currently taking courses and will finish with my degree this coming summer, if all goes as planned. I do not know what other steps I could take other than a masters program at that point. You are right though, I do feel like I am not really ready... But there doesn't appear to be much I can do at this point other than just jump in and try to swim.

@Susanoo whether iti s a 2.4 or a 2.8, you are still in the same up the creek without a paddle scenario, especially for MD. Are you open to DO? They reward reinvention more so than MD does. Also, your stats wouldn't earn any points in Florida, trust me I'm a Florida resident- I still have no Florida MD IIs with a 3.5/3.35/30 after over a month of waiting. My advice? Retake any C or below courses, and apply DO. To have the MD route make ANY sense at all, you wouldn't only needto ace it, you would also still probably need to retake your MCAT and get a 30+, and that's a tough job.

Hey, thanks for that advice. I personally do not want to go DO, so I would do a masters program before doing that. Also, I am very confident I can break a 30 on the MCAT, but that is irrelevant because my retake is scheduled for after this application cycle, so med schools will not see it this time. I am retaking it just to see what I can get.

How is the rest of your application? I have a friend who is also resides in this state who has gotten secondaries from almost every school he applied to (he applied to like 10) and his MCAT is lower than mine and his GPA is much lower (more than 0.3) than mine.

I am hoping to write up an awesome personal statement to compensate for the rest of my application, based on struggles and extenuating circumstances throughout my life and how that shaped me as an individual. But mostly, I expect to be rejected from every school and end up doing a masters program for a year before applying again and hopefully matriculating.

 

[gyngyn]

Hey, yeah! I am currently taking courses and will finish with my degree this coming summer, if all goes as planned. I do not know what other steps I could take other than a masters program at that point. You are right though, I do feel like I am not really ready... But there doesn't appear to be much I can do at this point other than just jump in and try to swim.

How is the rest of your application? I have a friend who is also resides in this state who has gotten secondaries from almost every school he applied to (he applied to like 10) and his MCAT is lower than mine and his GPA is much lower (more than 0.3) than mine.

Master's grades do not remediate weak undergraduate grades.
An SMP is an audition. It can also be a final performance.
Receipt of secondaries is not a predictor of outcomes.

 

[Goro]

100% agree with my learned colleague. I like to think of secondaries as a tax on the hopelessly optimistic.

Master's grades do not remediate weak undergraduate grades.
An SMP is an audition. It can also be a final performance.
Receipt of secondaries is not a predictor of outcomes.

 

[Susanoo]

Master's grades do not remediate weak undergraduate grades.
An SMP is an audition. It can also be a final performance.
Receipt of secondaries is not a predictor of outcomes.

I understand the part about secondaries not being a guaratntee of anything, but why is a masters program not a good shot? For example, some special masters programs actually have courses with their medical school so you take med school classes during that year in your masters and you are graded on a curve with their medical students. I imagine good performance in that situation would suffice for an MD school?.. I must be missing something here. One school posits that 80% of their graduates of their SMP matriculate into a medical school. They do not specify the divisions between MD, DO, or Caribbean though, but I imagine acing a masters program should redeem my undergrad performance, at least that is what I thought?

My cumulative GPA is a 3.4, my science GPA is a 2.8, my MCAT is a 28, only my science GPA is really dragging me down, and I could potentially raise it before graduating too, which won't really matter for this cycle, but will carry weight if I do a masters and then apply. What if I get a 30+ on my retake of the MCAT and then my GPA raises to a 3.5 and my science GPA raises to a 3.0ish, with a masters program, I do not see why that would be futile, unless I were to do poorly in the program, which is possible.

 

[gyngyn]

I understand the part about secondaries not being a guaratntee of anything, but why is a masters program not a good shot? For example, some special masters programs actually have courses with their medical school so you take med school classes during that year in your masters and you are graded on a curve with their medical students. I imagine good performance in that situation would suffice for an MD school?.. I must be missing something here. One school posits that 80% of their graduates of their SMP matriculate into a medical school. They do not specify the divisions between MD, DO, or Caribbean though, but I imagine acing a masters program should redeem my undergrad performance, at least that is what I thought?

My cumulative GPA is a 3.4, my science GPA is a 2.8, my MCAT is a 28, only my science GPA is really dragging me down, and I could potentially raise it before graduating too, which won't really matter for this cycle, but will carry weight if I do a masters and then apply. What if I get a 30+ on my retake of the MCAT and then my GPA raises to a 3.5 and my science GPA raises to a 3.0ish, with a masters program, I do not see why that would be futile, unless I were to do poorly in the program, which is possible.

Grades from Master's programs are not averaged into your undergrad scores. SMP's are different in that they may provide a linkage with a particular school and sometimes come with an interview or even a seat for good performance. Weak performance however, has a chilling effect on application outcomes.

 

[zzxxzz]

For example, some special masters programs actually have courses with their medical school so you take med school classes during that year in your masters and you are graded on a curve with their medical students. I imagine good performance in that situation would suffice for an MD school?.. I must be missing something here. One school posits that 80% of their graduates of their SMP matriculate into a medical school. They do not specify the divisions between MD, DO, or Caribbean though, but I imagine acing a masters program should redeem my undergrad performance, at least that is what I thought?

SMPs have admission requirements too. Some require a 30+ MCAT. Also, as people have pointed out, anything less than straight As/A+s in an SMP will significantly hurt your app.

My understanding is that SMPs are a way to help a less-competitive app get looked at more closely, not looked at in the first place. Many computer programs that MD programs use will see your 2.8 sGPA and mark your application "rejected" without a single human opening a page.

 

[Susanoo]

SMPs have admission requirements too. Some require a 30+ MCAT. Also, as people have pointed out, anything less than straight As/A+s in an SMP will significantly hurt your app.

My understanding is that SMPs are a way to help a less-competitive app get looked at more closely, not looked at in the first place. Many computer programs that MD programs use will see your 2.8 sGPA and mark your application "rejected" without a single human opening a page.

I know SMPs have requirements. I have never heard of one requiring a 30+ MCAT though, can you name any specific ones? The highest one I have personally seen required a 3.0 cumulative GPA and a 28 MCAT, both of which I have.

I am hoping that my science GPA can be raised to a 3.0+ by the end of my degree, and that the SMP will simply help me get in somewhere, again, I may not be understanding the system if what you're saying is true in the way that I am interpreting it. So my undergrad cGPA and sGPA are still weighed separately from the SMP? Even if I ball out in the SMP, and hypothetically get a 4.0, the 2.8 sGPA from undergrad would screen me out still? Some SMP's include classes with their medical schools and grade you on the same curve as their medical students, so good performance in those situations is an indication that you can handle the rigors of medical school and do well, and of course, poor performance indicates the opposite.

What would you suggest for me in order to be accepted into a US MD school? It seems that an SMP is really the only option for me. Plus, poor performance in the SMP would simply be an indication that I shouldn't be in medicine in the first place. SMP also seems like a better idea than a Post-Bacc, which seems pointless since I have 2 majors and 2 minors right now, I have simply taken the majority of the undergrad classes that are relevant towards this, at least at my school. There are some other upper level science classes I have not touched, but maybe those are options?

Grades from Master's programs are not averaged into your undergrad scores. SMP's are different in that they may provide a linkage with a particular school and sometimes come with an interview or even a seat for good performance. Weak performance however, has a chilling effect on application outcomes.

I understand. That sounds like a bonus then, why would anybody pursue medicine after doing an SMP and doing poorly in it? If I were to go in and try my best and still do poorly, I would strongly reconsider my decision to go into medicine.

Also, to note, the main SMPs that I am looking at do not have strong bridge programs into their medical schools. They mainly have several medical school courses in the SMP and you are graded on the curve with their medical students, so doing well in these courses carries a lot of weight.

 

[Kochanie]

I know SMPs have requirements. I have never heard of one requiring a 30+ MCAT though, can you name any specific ones? The highest one I have personally seen required a 3.0 cumulative GPA and a 28 MCAT, both of which I have.

I am hoping that my science GPA can be raised to a 3.0+ by the end of my degree, and that the SMP will simply help me get in somewhere, again, I may not be understanding the system if what you're saying is true in the way that I am interpreting it. So my undergrad cGPA and sGPA are still weighed separately from the SMP? Even if I ball out in the SMP, and hypothetically get a 4.0, the 2.8 sGPA from undergrad would screen me out still? Some SMP's include classes with their medical schools and grade you on the same curve as their medical students, so good performance in those situations is an indication that you can handle the rigors of medical school and do well, and of course, poor performance indicates the opposite.

What would you suggest for me in order to be accepted into a US MD school? It seems that an SMP is really the only option for me. Plus, poor performance in the SMP would simply be an indication that I shouldn't be in medicine in the first place. SMP also seems like a better idea than a Post-Bacc, which seems pointless since I have 2 majors and 2 minors right now, I have simply taken the majority of the undergrad classes that are relevant towards this, at least at my school. There are some other upper level science classes I have not touched, but maybe those are options?
I understand. That sounds like a bonus then, why would anybody pursue medicine after doing an SMP and doing poorly in it? If I were to go in and try my best and still do poorly, I would strongly reconsider my decision to go into medicine.

Also, to note, the main SMPs that I am looking at do not have strong bridge programs into their medical schools. They mainly have several medical school courses in the SMP and you are graded on the curve with their medical students, so doing well in these courses carries a lot of weight.

An SMP won't change your sGPA. They'll see your 2.4/2.8 sGPA in undergrad and then your GPA from the SMP. Also note, if you do bad at an SMP, it's pretty much over, you've proven you can't do well in MD school. Why not just do a postbacc? If your cGPA is that high, you probably haven't taken much more than the pre-reqs and can raise the sGPA pretty easily.

 

[Susanoo]

An SMP won't change your sGPA. They'll see your 2.4/2.8 sGPA in undergrad and then your GPA from the SMP. Also note, if you do bad at an SMP, it's pretty much over, you've proven you can't do well in MD school. Why not just do a postbacc? If your cGPA is that high, you probably haven't taken much more than the pre-reqs and can raise the sGPA pretty easily.

I am not sure why you think I have mainly taken the pre-reqs, but that is not right... I just calculated my science GPA a few days ago, I had over 70 (this number includes labs) classes that counted towards it already. I do not believe a post-bacc would make a significant difference? I will probably calculate what I would need to do to raise it to an appropriate level, but I believe that cannot be realistically done within a year.

Also, aren't SMPs designed for people who have low GPA's but everything else is "okay"? That was my understanding of it... I do not see why an SMP would carry less credibility than a post-bacc, or why a post-bacc would ever be preferable to an SMP? I see you mentioned doing poorly in an SMP shooting my chances of getting into any MD (or probably any other) med school, I agree with this and I think this is a positive aspect to SMPs. As I said previously, if I cannot do well in such a setting, why should I pursue medicine at all? There is no reason to pursue something that you are simply inherently not good at. At least in my personal opinion, whatever you choose to do with your life should be a cross between your natural talents and your natural preferences.

 

[chemguy79]

Why do you, OP, have such a vehement opposition to DO programs?

 

[Kochanie]

I am not sure why you think I have mainly taken the pre-reqs, but that is not right... I just calculated my science GPA a few days ago, I had over 70 (this number includes labs) classes that counted towards it already. I do not believe a post-bacc would make a significant difference? I will probably calculate what I would need to do to raise it to an appropriate level, but I believe that cannot be realistically done within a year.

Also, aren't SMPs designed for people who have low GPA's but everything else is "okay"? That was my understanding of it... I do not see why an SMP would carry less credibility than a post-bacc, or why a post-bacc would ever be preferable to an SMP? I see you mentioned doing poorly in an SMP shooting my chances of getting into any MD (or probably any other) med school, I agree with this and I think this is a positive aspect to SMPs. As I said previously, if I cannot do well in such a setting, why should I pursue medicine at all? There is no reason to pursue something that you are simply inherently not good at. At least in my personal opinion, whatever you choose to do with your life should be a cross between your natural talents and your natural preferences.

Because you clearly have said in the past that you can't study/get stressed. Don't go into it not doing your best and not knowing how to do your best. I thought that because your cGPA is so high, there wasn't many science classes bringing it down, apparently you must have gotten a lot of A in non-science classes with such a low sGPA.

Ugh all these people on SDN wanting to get into MD school ASAP and possibly ruining their chances forever is really raising my BP.

 

[Susanoo]

Why do you, OP, have such a vehement opposition to DO programs?

I have nothing personal against DO's at all. Sure, there is a stigma, but that doesn't matter. At the end of the day you're a doctor, MD or DO. That being said, I have two friends that are medical students that I ask for help with mainly, one is an MD, one is a DO. Actually, the MD is in his residency now, but he just started that.

Basically, I asked my MD friend about his thoughts and what he would do in my situation, and he said he would probably do an SMP and try to go MD, but that is because he wanted to go into competitive residencies. He got nearly 30 interviews and rocked his steps. So the reasoning is, if I want to do a competitive residency down the line, then it would simply be more difficult if I were a DO, and much less likely, depending on what the specialty is. Further, I would just have to work that much harder if those were my circumstances. It is easier to jump down a mountain than it is to climb up one (random metaphor, no idea where I got this one).

Another thing my friend mentioned, which is true is, I do not know what kind of residency I will want to get into, and I might not even end up wanting to do something competitive. Likewise, how do I know that I can even outperform my peers (who did well in undergrad and did not have to take additional time to get acceptances) in attaining a competitive residency spot IF I even have to do an SMP program (or post-bacc or whatever) and take the long route to get into an MD school, so that is something I have taken into consideration. Basically, I just want to keep as many options open as possible, and an additional year doing a masters program seems worth it to me.

This may be an anecdotal situation, but I have another friend who finished DO school and literally did not match into a single residency. That is 4 years of hard work and a massive amount of debt for such a depressing situation...

Also, the philosophy of osteopathic medicine is not something I am crazy about. I do not disagree with it, but I am not passionate about it either, I guess I am just neutral towards it.

Because you clearly have said in the past that you can't study/get stressed. Don't go into it not doing your best and not knowing how to do your best. I thought that because your cGPA is so high, there wasn't many science classes bringing it down, apparently you must have gotten a lot of A in non-science classes with such a low sGPA.

Ugh all these people on SDN wanting to get into MD school ASAP and possibly ruining their chances forever is really raising my BP.

How does a Post-Bacc help more than an SMP in the circumstances that I have outlined? I still have 3 semesters left of undergrad with about 10-20 science courses to improve my studying... If I go into a post-bacc then I do not see how the performance will really differ, or what I could really do regarding that.

And yes, I have a LOT of non-science A's. Double major and double minor will do that... I am also hoping to do the SMP to get a more realistic idea of how medical school classes are, and hoping that jumping right in will force me to improve. Adversity breeds results, you never really know how you will respond to great challenges until you're confronted with them. If it ruins my chances of getting into an MD school then that is my own fault and I am willing to take responsibility for such a decision and its outcomes. I am already 25 years old, if I cannot do well in an SMP in the next year then I should not be in medicine, as I have said before.

 

[Kochanie]

I have nothing personal against DO's at all. Sure, there is a stigma, but that doesn't matter. At the end of the day you're a doctor, MD or DO. That being said, I have two friends that are medical students that I ask for help with mainly, one is an MD, one is a DO. Actually, the MD is in his residency now, but he just started that.

Basically, I asked my MD friend about his thoughts and what he would do in my situation, and he said he would probably do an SMP and try to go MD, but that is because he wanted to go into competitive residencies. He got nearly 30 interviews and rocked his steps. So the reasoning is, if I want to do a competitive residency down the line, then it would simply be more difficult if I were a DO, and much less likely, depending on what the specialty is. Further, I would just have to work that much harder if those were my circumstances. It is easier to jump down a mountain than it is to climb up one (random metaphor, no idea where I got this one).

Another thing my friend mentioned, which is true is, I do not know what kind of residency I will want to get into, and I might not even end up wanting to do something competitive. Likewise, how do I know that I can even outperform my peers (who did well in undergrad and did not have to take additional time to get acceptances) in attaining a competitive residency spot IF I even have to do an SMP program (or post-bacc or whatever) and take the long route to get into an MD school, so that is something I have taken into consideration. Basically, I just want to keep as many options open as possible, and an additional year doing a masters program seems worth it to me.

This may be an anecdotal situation, but I have another friend who finished DO school and literally did not match into a single residency. That is 4 years of hard work and a massive amount of debt for such a depressing situation...

Also, the philosophy of osteopathic medicine is not something I am crazy about. I do not disagree with it, but I am not passionate about it either, I guess I am just neutral towards it.

How does a Post-Bacc help more than an SMP in the circumstances that I have outlined? I still have 3 semesters left of undergrad with about 10-20 science courses to improve my studying... If I go into a post-bacc then I do not see how the performance will really differ, or what I could really do regarding that.

And yes, I have a LOT of non-science A's. Double major and double minor will do that... I am also hoping to do the SMP to get a more realistic idea of how medical school classes are, and hoping that jumping right in will force me to improve. Adversity breeds results, you never really know how you will respond to great challenges until you're confronted with them. If it ruins my chances of getting into an MD school then that is my own fault and I am willing to take responsibility for such a decision and its outcomes. I am already 25 years old, if I cannot do well in an SMP in the next year then I should not be in medicine, as I have said before.

Ok.. Too bad that'll cost you $40k. If you can't do well this last year, I would highly re-evaluate that decision. Undergrad is a piece of cake compared to med school/a SMP and you haven't really proven you can do well in undergrad.

 

[Susanoo]

Ok.. Too bad that'll cost you $40k. If you can't do well this last year, I would highly re-evaluate that decision. Undergrad is a piece of cake compared to med school/a SMP and you haven't really proven you can do well in undergrad.

Gotcha. I know the price of SMPs. I think one thing I did not specify clearly enough is that I have been making steady improvements in my academics in the past few years. The low science GPA is due to my first 2 years in school, mostly. I have received 2 C's since Fall of 2012, they were both science... I know that is not good, but that is much better than the successive C's that I received before then. 1 C was in a course that I was not prepared for, since it was my first semester at a university after transferring from a community college.

The 2nd C was in biochemistry. I got that because I slacked off too had, and was taking it with an online course, neurobiology, physics 2, and human physiology. I waited until the night before to start studying for a lot of these exams, and I paid for that with a C in biochem and B's in the other courses...

I think I can finish the rest of my undergrad without a single C in any course, and I am aiming for straight A's in science courses. Of course, if I did not do well in the remaining year here, I would reconsider whether or not I should even try an SMP, as that would be much harder. My reasoning was that I am improving and presumably I will keep improving until I graduate, to the point where I think an SMP would simply be the next logical step. A post-bacc seems like a waste of time for me, in my opinion.

I could just add 2 science majors and finish that in the same amount of time (1 year) as an SMP. Then I would graduate with 4 majors and 2 minors, but that doesn't seem to carry as much weight as an SMP. Note: There is a lot of overlap at my school and I have already figured out exactly how to do multiple overlapping majors, so I am very confident I could add 2 science majors and complete them in 1 year.

 

[yankeebeckham]

I feel like you're not listening to what people are saying here.

I have a lot of sympathy for where you are coming from. I had a 3.0 sGPA after I finished undergrad with just the bare minimum science classes and 3.7ish all other GPA. However, I was not a science major. I took a year of DIT post-bacc courses, got a 4.0 in that year was able to move my sGPA up to 3.4 and got a 34 on the MCAT and I got a number of allopathic acceptances to choose from. So I don't like to tell anyone that they can't do anything if they have drive and they are willing to work hard.

However, this is not the situation you're in. Not one person here thinks you can get in with a 2.8. It's going to be difficult to even get into an SMP with a 2.8. And an SMP will not replace a 2.8 on your sGPA because schools are to use that as a screen and you're not going to make the cut. Fair or unfair, that's just the way it is. You've done nothing to prove you can be successful in any of your classes moving forward. Right now, an SMP will not help your cause, but it can ruin your chances of ever being accepted. And it's going to cost you a lot of money.

So what are your options? You can continue to take science classes to raise up your sGPA. I imagine this is going to take a lot of time if you've taken a lot of classes. You can look into DO because they do the grade replacement which will raise your GPA a lot faster. Worrying about your competitiveness for residency before you're accepted into medical school is really putting the cart before the horse because right now you're really not even competitive for medical school let alone residency.

What would I do if I were you? I would graduate from undergrad and get a job and take some time and reflect on my motivations for becoming a physician. Was there ever a solid block of time in school where you were consistently making good grades? What was different during that time period that you can replicate if you're really going to make a push towards medical school. If you've never had such a time period, is it realistic to believe that if you do a postbacc or retake some your classes, it's going to be any different this time? Consider why you want to be a physician. A great deal of satisfaction you can get from such a career can be found by looking into other careers. And now that I'm a 4th year medical student I can say you can probably find a career that is equally satisfying that uses the same skills and that challenges you in the same way that doesn't require you to sacrifice as much or work so hard. And you won't have to put your life on hold for so long or live with so much uncertainty or put up so much debt for the next few years.

The choice is really up to you. But I think it would behoove you to listen to the great advice you've been given thus far because the plan you have right now is not a realistic one.

 

[pluto101]

It seems like your plan involves absolutely everything going perfectly for you (i.e., all As in your remaining courses when that's never happened before, boosting your MCAT from 50th percentile to 90th percentile, etc.), and even then, you'd be a marginal candidate. Every time we point this out, you say "yeah, but, if this, this, and this happens, I could still get in!" Well, sure, you could. I will tell you right now: If everything goes perfectly for you in your remaining college courses, and you do an SMP, and you improve your MCAT significantly (there's a big gap between 28 and 32), then you stand a decent chance of getting an MD.

But you're in a forum titled "What are my chances?" And as it is, your chances are not good at all.


Side note: do you mean "20 courses left" or "20 credit-hours left"? Because I only ever took 3-5 courses (i.e., classes) at once, and 20 seems literally impossible.

 

[Susanoo]

It seems like your plan involves absolutely everything going perfectly for you (i.e., all As in your remaining courses when that's never happened before, boosting your MCAT from 50th percentile to 90th percentile, etc.), and even then, you'd be a marginal candidate. Every time we point this out, you say "yeah, but, if this, this, and this happens, I could still get in!" Well, sure, you could. I will tell you right now: If everything goes perfectly for you in your remaining college courses, and you do an SMP, and you improve your MCAT significantly (there's a big gap between 28 and 32), then you stand a decent chance of getting an MD.

But you're in a forum titled "What are my chances?" And as it is, your chances are not good at all.


Side note: do you mean "20 courses left" or "20 credit-hours left"? Because I only ever took 3-5 courses (i.e., classes) at once, and 20 seems literally impossible.

I meant 10 to 20 courses left, which includes this semester, the spring semester, and the summer semester.

 

[Heisenberg 41]

I think the bigger issue is the complete lack of EC's: no research, no shadowing, no volunteering... Think of all the 3.8+/30+ applicants who are rejected due to insufficient EC's and ask yourself: why SHOULD I get accepted?

 

[chemguy79]

Well said @yankeebeckham!

I'm always confused by threads when the OP wants advice, but they completely ignore and attempt to refute every piece of feedback that is offered. If you seem know all of the answers already, why are you posting a WAMC thread?

 

[Susanoo]

Well said @yankeebeckham!

I'm always confused by threads when the OP wants advice, but they completely ignore and attempt to refute every piece of feedback that is offered. If you seem know all of the answers already, why are you posting a WAMC thread?

This is directed to everyone, including you. Sorry if it appears that I am ignoring advice or being hardheaded. A lot of my refutations are probably questions that are poorly worded into statements. I am reading all the advice and taking it all into consideration. I have PM'ed a few of the repliers as well, for a more detailed response.

It seems I was also misreading / misinterpreting some of the advice as well, based on what yankeebeckham has told me in a more detailed PM. Thanks again to everyone who has given me advice.

 

[Susanoo]

I think the bigger issue is the complete lack of EC's: no research, no shadowing, no volunteering... Think of all the 3.8+/30+ applicants who are rejected due to insufficient EC's and ask yourself: why SHOULD I get accepted?

Agreed. I would not get accepted.

 

[Boolean]

It is highly unlikely you will get in MD. Even with an SMP, I would be wary.

 

[Kochanie]

It is highly unlikely you will get in MD. Even with an SMP, I would be wary.

Why do you say that? Lots of SMPs have links to medical schools, I'm just worried OP won't do well at an SMP.

 

[Boolean]

Why do you say that? Lots of SMPs have links to medical schools, I'm just worried OP won't do well at an SMP.

Low GPA, low MCAT, no EC's. It seems as if they randomly decided to attempt to go to medical school within the last month or so, and have been cobbling things together. Statistically speaking, they have a 23% chance or less, given their cGPA. Even lower looking at their sGPA (based off of AAMC data). Their reluctance to pursue alternative options also does not help their case.

 

[Kochanie]

Low GPA, low MCAT, no EC's. It seems as if they randomly decided to attempt to go to medical school within the last month or so, and have been cobbling things together. Statistically speaking, they have a 23% chance or less, given their cGPA. Even lower looking at their sGPA (based off of AAMC data). Their reluctance to pursue alternative options also does not help their case.

I completely agree. But that's what an SMP is for. Given a decent MCAT and great performance, you may be automatically accepted into the linked medical school.

 

[Boolean]

I completely agree. But that's what an SMP is for. Given a decent MCAT and great performance, you may be automatically accepted into the linked medical school.

Not every SMP though, yes? I was under the impression that only certain SMP's have linkage to their respective medical schools.

 

[Kochanie]

Not every SMP though, yes? I was under the impression that only certain SMP's have linkage to their respective medical schools.

True, true. So if OP did very well at an SMP (3.7+) they would still take his undergrad grades into consideration?

 

[Boolean]

True, true. So if OP did very well at an SMP (3.7+) they would still take his undergrad grades into consideration?

Fairly certain that would still occur. UG grades are going to be there whether or not OP likes it. They've just gotta show that their UG GPA is not indicative of their performance in the present.