MD What are my chances at upper level schools; 3.95 gpa, 4.00 sci-gpa, 39 MCAT

[ARKR]

Hey,

So I'm gearing up to apply to medical school finally. I'll outline my resume

39 MCAT (12/12/15)
3.95/4.00 gpa, not worried about that. High course load for the most part.
Bio Major / Philo Minor


Everything else is where I run thin.
-150ish hours of shadowing, mainly ER, but was varied (I got sent off to radiology, cath lab, some neurology docs, etc)
-Started, and ran, a sports club at my college. I've gone to some regional competitions in the sport and done alright, and am aiming for nationals this time around
-Volunteer tutor at the university for the bio dept. 3/4hours a week for two years.
- TAed an upper level bio course at university for a semester
- Tutored for the athletic dept. for all the major science classes (bio, chem, orgo, physic, and a variety of logic courses). 5 hrs a week for the first semester, 15 hours a week the second semester
-Worked at panera bread during 2 summers; don't know if this is worth including? Also tended bar for a summer...
-Non medical community service is about 100 hours total (Obviously my biggest worry)

-LOR
- 3 are from the profs I tutor/TA for. They also had me in class but tutoring allowed me to get to know them much more personally. They've been super cool about it and I expect them to be great.
-1 from the doc i shadow. He is used to writing LOR for medical schools and has gotten to know me pretty well and seems to like me, so I feel safe there.
-1 from a philo prof. Nothing special but we did some serious philosophizing together outside of class once or twice.
-I still have to do the interview, but should be getting a committee letter as well.


-I'll be doing research during a gap year, still waiting to hear back from some projects, but my preference is to be involved in clinical research, if not i will be involved in lab research.


So first question is, will my stats be enough to carry me into at least an interview at some mid/lower level schools? I know I'm weak at EC's and will probably do some other form of volunteering over the gap year, but still need to get that in order.

Second question -- is it worth applying to big named ivy league type schools w/o research. The reason I ask is my state school is quite pricey (UMDNJ). So financially these could be better for me(from what I've heard), if i can get in. Mostly I'm concerned w/ debt management.

Any advice/ input is greatly appreciated. Thanks a bunch!

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[jeghaber]

While your ECs aren't your strongest suit (at least in comparison to the numbers part of your application) I think you should be okay with the "middle tier" schools, as you put it. In my mind these are schools more or less top 50ish that aren't research powerhouses. Familiarize yourself with some schools and identify the ones that really resonate with you -- especially if you're thinking of applying to some of the 10K+ applications schools like BU or Georgetown. As long as you apply broadly and sensibly, you should be okay here.

As for the more competitive schools, you might still have a chance. Obviously research is a conspicuous missing element, but there are still schools that might fit your bill. In terms of the universal reaches, I'd suggest targeting schools that seem to favor high-stat applicants like Yale, WUSTL, UPenn or UChicago. While these schools are still rather research oriented, you might have a better chance with them with your high numbers. In addition to these though, you should probably add a healthy number of schools like Mount Sinai or Emory that are most likely better investments of your money.

I think you'd be good with a 20/40/40 split between the uber-reach/reach/match schools as long as you conscientiously choose each school on your list, but opinions will vary on this, and you may want to take a more conservative/risky approach.

Best of luck!

 

[ARKR]

Thanks very much Jeghaber!

So for my school list so far I've gone with

UPenn
UChicago
Emory
RWJ
UMDNJ
Miller
UVA
Temple

those are the schools I am fairly confident I'll apply to. However I want to apply to about 12-15 schools to ensure I apply broadly enough. So the other schools I'm considering are

Baylor
UWashington
Washington University
Duke
Case Western
University of Alabama
University of Wis
Ohio State
Jefferson
U Florida
UCF
Mount Sinai
UVM

I'm primarily looking to hang around the east coast if possible, but I am certainly open to going long distance. Would anyone have any recommendations on schools I should just count out, schools I may not have thought about, etc?

 

[Catalystik]

39 MCAT (12/12/15)
3.95/4.00 gpa, not worried about that. High course load for the most part.
Bio Major / Philo Minor


Everything else is where I run thin.
-150ish hours of shadowing, mainly ER, but was varied (I got sent off to radiology, cath lab, some neurology docs, etc)
-Started, and ran, a sports club at my college. I've gone to some regional competitions in the sport and done alright, and am aiming for nationals this time around
-Volunteer tutor at the university for the bio dept. 3/4hours a week for two years.
- TAed an upper level bio course at university for a semester
- Tutored for the athletic dept. for all the major science classes (bio, chem, orgo, physic, and a variety of logic courses). 5 hrs a week for the first semester, 15 hours a week the second semester
-Worked at panera bread during 2 summers; don't know if this is worth including? Also tended bar for a summer...
-Non medical community service is about 100 hours total (Obviously my biggest worry)

-LOR
- 3 are from the profs I tutor/TA for. They also had me in class but tutoring allowed me to get to know them much more personally. They've been super cool about it and I expect them to be great.
-1 from the doc i shadow. He is used to writing LOR for medical schools and has gotten to know me pretty well and seems to like me, so I feel safe there.
-1 from a philo prof. Nothing special but we did some serious philosophizing together outside of class once or twice.
-I still have to do the interview, but should be getting a committee letter as well.


-I'll be doing research during a gap year, still waiting to hear back from some projects, but my preference is to be involved in clinical research, if not i will be involved in lab research.


So first question is, will my stats be enough to carry me into at least an interview at some mid/lower level schools? I know I'm weak at EC's and will probably do some other form of volunteering over the gap year, but still need to get that in order.

Second question -- is it worth applying to big named ivy league type schools w/o research. The reason I ask is my state school is quite pricey (UMDNJ). So financially these could be better for me(from what I've heard), if i can get in. Mostly I'm concerned w/ debt management.

Any advice/ input is greatly appreciated. Thanks a bunch!

If you're ambitious, you might give consideration to waiting a year to apply, considering you have zero research experience and no active clinical experience. That extra time would also allow for enhancement of your nonmedical community service (since you're worried about it) and further demonstration of your potential for leadership. Your teaching and shadowing are terrific. And you should list your summer jobs together under a "Short-Term Jobs" title.

 

[Goro]

And right here is your problem. You have yet to set foot in ahospital, except for shadowing. You need to show us that you actually want to spend the next 30-40 years being around sick people, and that you know what you're getting into. Not all patient contact experience has to be hospital based. think hospice, nursing homes or clinics. But I've seen plenty of posts here from people with stats like yours who were rejected precisely because they lacked any clinical ECs.


Everything else is where I run thin.
-150ish hours of shadowing, mainly ER, but was varied (I got sent off to radiology, cath lab, some neurology docs, etc)
-Started, and ran, a sports club at my college. I've gone to some regional competitions in the sport and done alright, and am aiming for nationals this time around
-Volunteer tutor at the university for the bio dept. 3/4hours a week for two years.
- TAed an upper level bio course at university for a semester
- Tutored for the athletic dept. for all the major science classes (bio, chem, orgo, physic, and a variety of logic courses). 5 hrs a week for the first semester, 15 hours a week the second semester
-Worked at panera bread during 2 summers; don't know if this is worth including? Also tended bar for a summer...
-Non medical community service is about 100 hours total (Obviously my biggest worry)

Possibly, but I think these will be followed by rejections.


So first question is, will my stats be enough to carry me into at least an interview at some mid/lower level schools? I know I'm weak at EC's and will probably do some other form of volunteering over the gap year, but still need to get that in order.

My impression is that the research powerhouses want you to do some research. I'd love to hear what the learned LizzyM has to say on this score, since she's at one of these places.

Second question -- is it worth applying to big named ivy league type schools w/o research. The reason I ask is my state school is quite pricey (UMDNJ). So financially these could be better for me(from what I've heard), if i can get in. Mostly I'm concerned w/ debt management.

 

[ARKR]

Thanks for the replys

So my first question is does shadowing not count as clinical exposure? I've been told by many docs that shadowing > volunteering because you actually see what the profession is like. I also got to interact directly with patients and ask them questions, communicate with them, during my shadowing. Really the shadowing experience is what I'm basing my decision off of (parents are also in the medical field, although not docs, but I've seen a lot of it growing up and that also played a role). My advisor told me not to worry about not volunteering in a hospital or something because "adcoms know that 95% of the time you weren't actually taking care of sick people anyway." Was this poor advice?

Also, would having a clinical volunteer activity on the anticipated activites offset this. Presumably by the time interviews rolled around I could have significant experiences under my belt. Or would this make no difference?

A follow up question, I took the MCAT during August of 2013. Would that still be eligible for the majority of schools come the 2015 app cycle? I know the new MCAT will be out by then. I don't really want to take that test again...

Again, thanks for the responses. I really appreciate it.

 

[BillrothI]

A follow up question, I took the MCAT during August of 2013. Would that still be eligible for the majority of schools come the 2015 app cycle? I know the new MCAT will be out by then. I don't really want to take that test again...

AFAIK, your MCAT score should be valid for three years (through the 2016-2017 cycle). I don't think schools are changing their policy because of the new MCAT, though I could be wrong.

-Bill

 

[Catalystik]

1) So my first question is does shadowing not count as clinical exposure? I've been told by many docs that shadowing > volunteering because you actually see what the profession is like. I also got to interact directly with patients and ask them questions, communicate with them, during my shadowing. Really the shadowing experience is what I'm basing my decision off of (parents are also in the medical field, although not docs, but I've seen a lot of it growing up and that also played a role).

2) My advisor told me not to worry about not volunteering in a hospital or something because "adcoms know that 95% of the time you weren't actually taking care of sick people anyway." Was this poor advice?

3) Also, would having a clinical volunteer activity on the anticipated activites offset this. Presumably by the time interviews rolled around I could have significant experiences under my belt. Or would this make no difference?

4) A follow up question, I took the MCAT during August of 2013. Would that still be eligible for the majority of schools come the 2015 app cycle? I know the new MCAT will be out by then. I don't really want to take that test again...

1) Shadowing is a clinical experience, but it's considered a passive observership the purpose of which is to watch the patient-physician interaction, not to interact with the patient.

2) Some schools don't care about shadowing. Other schools will consider shadowing alone to fulfill their expectations. But most want to know that you can interact with sick people in a helpful way, as well. It's wise to have both types of experience so your application will appeal to a broad audience. Active clinical experience can be gained in many ways: employment, volunteering, or via research interactions, at a hospital, clinic, rehab center, nursing home, or hospice.

3) If you start gaining active clinical experience as soon as possible, it could help an application submitted summer 2014, especially if you continue the activity through the application year. It could be helpful also if some of the shadowing you did was actually in the "helpful" category and you reclassified it and listed it separately.

4) The MCAT is generally good for 2-3 years. A handful of schools honor it for 4-10 years.

 

[solitarius]

you have zero research experience and no active clinical experience.

Um, yeah...

 

[ARKR]

1) Shadowing is a clinical experience, but it's considered a passive observership the purpose of which is to watch the patient-physician interaction, not to interact with the patient.

2) Some schools don't care about shadowing. Other schools will consider shadowing alone to fulfill their expectations. But most want to know that you can interact with sick people in a helpful way, as well. It's wise to have both types of experience so your application will appeal to a broad audience. Active clinical experience can be gained in many ways: employment, volunteering, or via research interactions, at a hospital, clinic, rehab center, nursing home, or hospice.

3) If you start gaining active clinical experience as soon as possible, it could help an application submitted summer 2014, especially if you continue the activity through the application year. It could be helpful also if some of the shadowing you did was actually in the "helpful" category and you reclassified it and listed it separately.

4) The MCAT is generally good for 2-3 years. A handful of schools honor it for 4-10 years.

A fair amount of my shadowing is relatively active, (talk to patients, report back to the doc, stuff like that) and I'm still currently shadowing so it is ongoing. It's not weekly, I generally do it in spurts.

Do you have any idea which schools will consider shadowing alone? I'd like to apply this time around if that is possible. I'm currently setting up an active clinical experience which I will also continue through the year

Any input on how much anticipated activities play a role on applications? If someone has a weakness, like no research, can that be amended by having anticipated research in a gap year? (It'd be started around the time of applying)

 

[5dwn7]

I think you have more than enough shadowing. The issue is non-shadowing clinical exposure (hospital, hospice, clinic volunteering etc.) It sounds like you are getting good experience interacting with patients and learning from them, but schools are also interested in your clinical service- actually helping people who are sick. You are right that as a volunteer, this is very limited. If you can look for an experience not where you're folding pillow cases all the time, but something where you get to meaningfully interact with patients, I think this would be good. There are many volunteering positions where your work will not be fulfilling. However, I think some successful applicants find volunteering positions that are very meaningful and can speak strongly to this on their app and during interview (some more unique examples: health counselling with homeless youth, LGBT health activism, medical interpretation/translation at hospitals etc.). It's ironic because my advisor pretty much told me the opposite of what yours told you- meaningful clinical volunteering > shadowing (the idea is that you are -hopefully- helping people while volunteering whereas shadowing is entirely self serving). Of course, that was more in line with the mentality of my state school which puts an emphasis on service. Nevertheless, that advice served me well in my application cycle.

It sounds like you are working to improve on this area of your app, so that is good.

I think you have good chances if you apply this year, and your school list looks reasonable. I think if you take another year and improve on the research and volunteering areas, you could aim higher. IIRC U Washington really heavily favors in state applicants and primary care focused applicants. I don't think you would be a good fit for the school with your lighter volunteering and (presumably) OOS status.

It sounds like you are more interested in applying this year maybe with "lower" sights, which is fine.

I could be wrong, but I think anticipated activities aren't worth very much pre-interview. You could say you plan to do all manner of amazing things, but saying =/= doing. I do not think you will get interview offers based on planned activities. However, if you update schools with research accomplishments/progress throughout the cycle that would be good (post or pre interview).

 

[Catalystik]

1) Do you have any idea which schools will consider shadowing alone? I'd like to apply this time around if that is possible. I'm currently setting up an active clinical experience which I will also continue through the year

2) Any input on how much anticipated activities play a role on applications? If someone has a weakness, like no research, can that be amended by having anticipated research in a gap year? (It'd be started around the time of applying)

1) Maybe your advisor can help with this, since that seems to be her bias. My experience is more in line with what 5dwn7 was told.

2) Anticipated activities listed on the application are very unlikely to be taken into account, as we see far too many such Experiences were never started or prematurely interrupted, for a variety of reasons, when an interviewee is questioned about them. An update letter (where allowed) mentioning some months of involvement in an activity you are missing, has the chance of tipping a committee on the cusp in your favor. YMMV.

 

[dumbbell]

you will get almost anywhere with that stat. I would warn you tho that your stat is too high for low and low mid tiers. they will not bother to interview you because you are very likely to be picked up by a top 20 school. so do not apply to just mid-tiers. I personally think your EC is excellent as well.