What are my chances? Low GPA (2.7 or so) Good MCAT (39), nontrad

[ImmunoLove]

Wow you have one of the crazier stories I've read on here. It's crazy that a single year of bad grades could automatically screen out someone with a 99th percentile MCAT, research on par with a typical research associate, and three years of near flawless grades.

lol, well I hoped, that's for sure!

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[Goro]

Wander on over to the Pre-DO forum and you'll find lots of info there.


I will strongly consider DO programs...Any info welcome (and yes, I plan on helping myself in learning about this too, but I've come to appreciate the unique insight of people from "the inside"; it's different than the PR one reads on all the websites).

Very good!
I've retaken all failing grades, replaced with As mostly.

As I said, you CAN do this as a PhD, either in a research venue, or as a lab mgr. The guy who oversaw my cardiac stress test recently was not an MD or DO, but a PhD in Physiology. Flipping it around, you can do any type of research with only an MD or a DO. Just do a research fellowship after residency and type the academic medicine route.

I don't want to just be a PhD. I really like research, but I love medicine. It gives me meaning, it makes me better. Interacting with patients in this intimate setting makes me a better person, reminds me life is short, lights a fire under me. Those who are dying happy and fulfilled, those who feel cheated by a life cut short, all of it fuels me. Maybe that's a selfish reason, but it makes me strive continually to improve, to do more, to be more productive, to appreciate life wholly.

See above
I'm interested in why you think I'd be more suited to a PhD (which I take as a compliment, as I would if someone would suggest I'd make a good MD. I want both. Being fit for either is an honor).

Because, as stated above by my learned colleague gyngyn, MD/PhD programs are even more selective than MD or PhD programs alone. They have plenty of candidates without the GPA baggage, alas.

I find it peculiar the advice this far has been: apply to PhD, or apply broadly for MD, but most certainly not MD PhD. I understand the pragmatic reasons for this (competitive, what their looking for, the former cares naught for your story, whereas the latter might appreciate your unique stance), but it seems that these pragmatic reasons acknowledge means more than ends...I think my situation, my nature, is quite well suited for a future as a physician scientist. Curious to know what might me a more appealing candidate for MD PhD progs.

Also suggest that you use whatever clinical connections to wrangle an interview. Surely, some of your clinical colleagues must be on a medical school faculty? Is your hospital associated with a medical school???

 

[ImmunoLove]

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[Goro]

I believe that if you can get your foot in the door, and when people see your recent academic success, then you'd be a highly competitive candidate.

The key is getting human eyeballs to loo at your app.

So, start asking the question of your colleagues "do you anyone in Admissions at....?"

There are three big med centers here (SF, CA) and I'm in the one not (formally) associated with a school! The schools in the area are all top 5. I do have colleagues with connections (oh how to ask? wished it was on merit, but I've heard this advice a lot as of late). Also, how strongly does gpa affect my ability to matriculate in the situation in which I am fortunate enough to wrangle an interview (as it obviously is a strong prohibitive force in getting an interview to begin with)....

 

[HopesandDreams]

All the above and a few more: substance use/abuse and/or physical, psychiatric, emotional or personality disorders.
Nice DDx, btw.

Undergrad gpa is the stick by which we measure your ability to succeed over time. Everything else you have mentioned is still true, but undergrad is a lot easier than medical school. Unless we are sure that you do not have one of the usual reasons for the dissonance we just discussed (and that's a big if), you still have to show the ability to give a sustained effort without crumbling.

Obviously I'm a bit biased given that I fall into the high MCAT/low GPA category but this line of thinking really bothers me because it fails to take into account the course of study and the undergrad institution. Isn't this part of the reason the MCAT exists in the first place: to provide some objective measure of a candidates suitability, since GPA alone is dependent on these factors. I've studied now in 4 different environments : high tier state research university, private research university, mid-low tier state university, and community college and can attest to the fact that different universities vary widely in academic rigor of the classes and in the grade distribution. Furthermore topics in different programs at the same school can vary significantly, physics for engineering and physicists at my undergrad institution was calculus based and vastly more difficult than the physics for bio/science majors which was algebra based (not to mention the impact of the curve in a class of all engineers and physicists). Even different sections of the same course at the same school often result in one section earning a reputation of being significantly more difficult.

Also RE: the idea that in med school everything is universally more difficult than undergrad:

SMP physiology : exact same course as med students (algebra based), tests exclusively multiple choice. 92+ was an "A" for SMP students, which I earned in both sections. The med students need just a 70 to pass. Med students petitioned to have difficult to understand double negative question stems removed( lol?)

UG BME physiology: pre-reqs: differential equations, multivariable calculus, two quarters of single variable calculus. Outside of this the actual information covered was about the same but because the examinations were open answer and required the use of multivariable calc/ solving ODE's it was definitely more difficult. Also this was done in two quarters vs two semesters for traditional med school curriculum so that would negate the added difficulty from the load in med school.

So before lumping all of us low-GPA'ers together as having issues with "substance abuse or psychiatric disorders" please consider that not all GPA's are equal to begin with. I felt like in my engineering program it was often a struggle just to pass certain classes even if you did everything you could. I studied my butt off for biomechanics only to freeze on one of the five multi-part questions on the final and end up with a D the first time around ( We covered this wonderful book http://www.amazon.com/First-Course-Continuum-Mechanics-3rd/dp/0130615242 from cover to cover in only 10 weeks, check out the pdf which can be found in google, just looking at it is like a traumatic experience for me) I know several students who had to switch out to other majors because they could not pass certain courses even with multiple attempts. I know engineers with GPA's <3.0 who are now very successful in industry, sometimes with GPA just above 2.0 even. This definitely needs to be considered when making up the DDx.

 

[gyngyn]

Obviously I'm a bit biased given that I fall into the high MCAT/low GPA category but this line of thinking really bothers me because it fails to take into account the course of study and the undergrad institution. Isn't this part of the reason the MCAT exists in the first place: to provide some objective measure of a candidates suitability, since GPA alone is dependent on these factors. I've studied now in 4 different environments : high tier state research university, private research university, mid-low tier state university, and community college and can attest to the fact that different universities vary widely in academic rigor of the classes and in the grade distribution. Furthermore topics in different programs at the same school can vary significantly, physics for engineering and physicists at my undergrad institution was calculus based and vastly more difficult than the physics for bio/science majors which was algebra based (not to mention the impact of the curve in a class of all engineers and physicists). Even different sections of the same course at the same school often result in one section earning a reputation of being significantly more difficult.

Also RE: the idea that in med school everything is universally more difficult than undergrad:

SMP physiology : exact same course as med students (algebra based), tests exclusively multiple choice. 92+ was an "A" for SMP students, which I earned in both sections. The med students need just a 70 to pass. Med students petitioned to have difficult to understand double negative question stems removed( lol?)

UG BME physiology: pre-reqs: differential equations, multivariable calculus, two quarters of single variable calculus. Outside of this the actual information covered was about the same but because the examinations were open answer and required the use of multivariable calc/ solving ODE's it was definitely more difficult.

So before lumping all of us low-GPA'ers together as having issues with "substance abuse or psychiatric disorders" please consider that not all GPA's are equal to begin with. I felt like in my engineering program it was often a struggle just to pass certain classes even if you did everything you could. I studied my butt off for biomechanics only to freeze on one of the five multi-part questions on the final and end up with a D the first time around (covered this wonderful book http://www.amazon.com/First-Course-Continuum-Mechanics-3rd/dp/0130615242 from cover to cover in only 10 weeks, check out the pdf which can be found in google, just looking at it is like a traumatic experience for me) I know several students who had to switch out to other majors because they could not pass certain courses even with multiple attempts. I know engineers with GPA's <3.0 who are now very successful in industry, sometimes with GPA just above 2.0 even. This definitely needs to be considered when making up the DDx.

If I don't tell you what comes to mind when we see this type of marked disparity, you cannot address our concerns. We are well aware of all your points. The fact remains that the pool of candidates with this combination of data points is quite different from other pools. Not to recognize this serves only to disadvantage you further. If that were my goal I would say nothing.

 

[ImmunoLove]

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[ImmunoLove]

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[ImmunoLove]

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[baxt1412]

There is not a way to get past the screens unless you meet their criteria, as far as I am aware. That's the point of the screens - to screen out apps they won't even consider.

 

[gyngyn]

How do i get a human to read my app? Creative problem solving welcome.

Get the gpa over 3.0. This is where the DO schools offer an advantage.

 

[ImmunoLove]

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[baxt1412]

argh,. Ok looked at my old AMCAS calculations thing and my UG gpa (including everything) now is 2.94, but there's an error on it...I recalculated after correction and it comes to 2.995...Does this autoscreen at least round up? Still no good? I'm trying to consider everything...

would probably have to ask AMCAS or the individual schools... but i'm guessing it does not round.

 

[BMC11]

I truly enjoy research, but as the old adage goes "information without context is meaningless". Not to say that pure research is meaningless, but for me, interacting with patients improves my research and frankly provides the "payoff" for that kind of work. I think my lousy situation is responsible for that; having overcome difficulty, I find it truly rewarding to guide others. It sounds mushy, but it's what I find gratifying. And I'm not willing to spend my life dedicated to something I don't find gratifying. For me, research satisfies my spinning mind, but medicine feeds my soul. Again, mush. But so true (and frankly out of character for me to be so emotive, unless I'm discussing medicine, of course). Hence, any advice is welcome.

Of note, my poor performance was limited to a very difficult time (which was indeed most of my college career). I think my performance the last three years is a much better indicator of my capabilities.

I mean, depending on what kind of Ph.D. programs you consider, you can get the "context." Look at Ph.D. programs in Schools of Medicine that are focused on clinically translatable research problems. A lot of potential advisors are MDs or MD/PhDs and will let you attend clinic with them. You can also get involved with patient groups in the area and learn to advocate through research. The concept that PhDs are cut off from the reality of healthcare and patients is borderline ridiculous. You can be connected if you want to--not everything is isolated basic science.

You can also pursue the two degrees separately--do a PhD (you have the research experience to be desirable, even if your GPA is poor. some schools may be willing to make exceptions) and then see how you feel about an MD when you're done.

MD/PhD programs are so competitive, you won't get in. It's not that you don't have a compelling life story and great experiences, it's just that (in my experience) so does every other applicant...and those applicants also have 4.0's. It can make it damn near impossible.

 

[HopesandDreams]

argh,. Ok looked at my old AMCAS calculations thing and my UG gpa (including everything) now is 2.94, but there's an error on it...I recalculated after correction and it comes to 2.995...Does this autoscreen at least round up? Still no good? I'm trying to consider everything...

AMCAS reports the gpa to 3 digits (ex. 3.00) so I would assume rounding. Best way to find out? Open the AMCAS application and enter all your grades there! If you want to have any chance of starting next fall you need to start this NOW! Also if your AMCAS GPA is 2.995 (3.00), I'm almost certain your AACOMAS GPA would be 3.1 or higher at a minimum, given the fact that you say you retook all those courses and made A's, maybe even higher like 3.2+ which would definitely put you in the running. I really think you are far better off applying DO, but only if you start filling out that primary and get everything going right away. Otherwise it's probably best to start planning for the 2016 application cycle...

 

[ImmunoLove]

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[ImmunoLove]

I mean, depending on what kind of Ph.D. programs you consider, you can get the "context." Look at Ph.D. programs in Schools of Medicine that are focused on clinically translatable research problems. A lot of potential advisors are MDs or MD/PhDs and will let you attend clinic with them. You can also get involved with patient groups in the area and learn to advocate through research. The concept that PhDs are cut off from the reality of healthcare and patients is borderline ridiculous. You can be connected if you want to--not everything is isolated basic science.

You can also pursue the two degrees separately--do a PhD (you have the research experience to be desirable, even if your GPA is poor. some schools may be willing to make exceptions) and then see how you feel about an MD when you're done.

MD/PhD programs are so competitive, you won't get in. It's not that you don't have a compelling life story and great experiences, it's just that (in my experience) so does every other applicant...and those applicants also have 4.0's. It can make it damn near impossible.

If I HAD to chose between the MD or PhD, I'd get the MD (can still do research with it, and work my way into a PhD hopefully). It is tough competition out there, and while this bums me out in the meantime, I'm excited to enter a field with such caliber people. Run with the swift, as they say...Thanks for all the feedback. I greatly appreciate it.

 

[alpinism]

You basically have 2 options:

1. Get your GPA to 3.0 and apply to well known MD SMPs. If you do well you should be able to get into at least 1 MD school.
2. Apply DO. As long as your AACOMAS GPA is above 3.2 (which it should be) you should have no trouble getting into multiple schools.

With either choice you should be able to get into a PhD program once in med school.

SMP forums: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/forums/postbaccalaureate-programs.71/

Keep up the hard work and you'll get there eventually.

 

[thestrugglingtraveler]

For DO school they replace the grades. So you should see your GPA increase greatly.

 

[thestrugglingtraveler]

Their was someone with below a 3.0 who got into harvard medical school. No petition or anything. He just explained and got in. I read it on that site where people post gpa and MCAT scores.

 

[ImmunoLove]

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[thestrugglingtraveler]

Wow, good for them! Out of curiosity, would you know what year they matriculated? I would love to chat with someone in my position (or something similar), to get a candid take on their experiences and their methods in achieving success.

I think in '12. He was Asian too. A number of people here have low GPA's as well.

 

[ImmunoLove]

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[thestrugglingtraveler]

Your reply implies (by the admittedly weaker "abductive reasoning") that you are at Harvard. Congrats! My mentor(s) attended Harvard and spoke volumes to the potential and possibility such a historic institution maintains. When I think of premeds, I think (stereo)typically of type A, "overachiever", committed, smart, capable, crossing t's and dotting i's. It seems most people have excellent stats, especially gpa. Here's to hoping (and trying to work a little magic, who knows).

Oh no, I was referring to here on SDN. I am not anywhere near harvard, hehe. I think the Harvard med school GPA is like 3.8 or something, but I was jsut saying it has been done.

 

[ImmunoLove]

Oh no, I was referring to here on SDN. I am not anywhere near harvard, hehe. I think the Harvard med school GPA is like 3.8 or something, but I was jsut saying it has been done.

Ah, forgive me. You're right, it has been done here on SDN. In fact, hearing these stories is precisely what I adore about SDN (that, and more pragmatically, the advice of the insider's perspectives, and the comradery among fellow premeds).

 

[URMD]

Hold on, with your undergrad GPA, was it just one bad year? and then you did well since?
Or was it multiple years?
I'm just wondering because if it was really 1 bad year and u did really well after that 1 year I dont see how its possible to graduate with less than a 3.0, but then again, I haven't really done the math so..

 

[ImmunoLove]

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[URMD]

Yes I understand the rest, I just wanted to clarify whether it was 1 year due to the divorce or several...
Your situation is clearly beyond the scope of what medical school admissions has the ability to evaluate imo....college credits from 8 years old I mean come on!
I assume your applying for the next cycle? (2016)
I would reccommend you try to contact the dean of admissions for some schools to have a face to face. I think once you explain your situation they will try to find some way to accomodate you.
Like many people here are saying, once someone LOOKS at your application, I'd say you would have no problem being accepted, but getting that to happen is the difficult part.

Alternatively you could just forget all that complicated stuff, go do grade replacement and go for DO

 

[Desmo916]

I honestly don't see how 3 years of a 3.98 and 1 bad year = a 2.75. I had one bad semester and the rest of my schooling has been decent, maybe a 3.5 avg, and now it is currently a 3.2.

 

[ImmunoLove]

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[Desmo916]

I'm not sure where the idea of one bad year comes from... To clarify, lousy GPA comes from: a) taking courses since age 8 at community college (taken to strengthen English, since I'm ESL, obviously not great grades during that time); and b) ramifications/consequences of an abusive arranged marriage and divorce (marriage lasting almost ten years, of which 4.5 years were consumed by a very nasty divorce) and resulted in several years of mediocre grades. After divorce, I academically "killed it" as they say....

How many credit hours (units) did you take between the age of 8 and right before you started doing well? You must have taken a LOT. I am just really curious is all! Your situation is definitely unique.

 

[ImmunoLove]

How many credit hours (units) did you take between the age of 8 and right before you started doing well? You must have taken a LOT. I am just really curious is all! Your situation is definitely unique.

I've taken a total of 280 credits, and the last 85 consecutive credits were straight As (and 1 B). I'm glad you're curious! It means hopefully I'm not (easily) written off.

 

[Desmo916]

I've taken a total of 280 credits, and the last 85 consecutive credits were straight As (and 1 B). I'm glad you're curious! It means hopefully I'm not (easily) written off.

See, that explains things a bit more to me. I'm no admissions expert (I am trying to get into med. school someday myself), but you have a really compelling story and your upward trend is great, and that MCAT score is fantastic. Look into a 1 year SMP program maybe, as someone suggested earlier. Most people trying to go M.D. go the 1 year master's route even if their GPA is a 3.0+. Seems to be that your largest obstacle is just getting your application read by human eyes, and like everyone stated, any cGPA with a 2 in front of it doesn't get looked at.

If you are trying to get into med school right away, consider the Caribbean or the atlantic bridge program (Ireland based, I had a buddy go through that and is a gen. surgeon now). If you are as smart as your numbers say you are, I don't think you'll have a problem with any route that you go. But obviously, the Caribbean should be a last resort and I am not sure how FAFSA works for it.

 

[thestrugglingtraveler]

See, that explains things a bit more to me. I'm no admissions expert (I am trying to get into med. school someday myself), but you have a really compelling story and your upward trend is great, and that MCAT score is fantastic. Look into a 1 year SMP program maybe, as someone suggested earlier. Most people trying to go M.D. go the 1 year master's route even if their GPA is a 3.0+. Seems to be that your largest obstacle is just getting your application read by human eyes, and like everyone stated, any cGPA with a 2 in front of it doesn't get looked at.

If you are trying to get into med school right away, consider the Caribbean or the atlantic bridge program (Ireland based, I had a buddy go through that and is a gen. surgeon now). If you are as smart as your numbers say you are, I don't think you'll have a problem with any route that you go. But obviously, the Caribbean should be a last resort and I am not sure how FAFSA works for it.

She wants to do transplant surgery. Only a few top academic centers have such programs. If she does DO or Caribbean her chances of getting into such a top surgical residency are very slim. I think getting into a third-rate US MD program, and then getting an excellent USMLE score would be the best option. 39 MCAT is not that high to compensate for the low GPA, as the average at these top schools are around 38 anyways.

 

[Winged Scapula]

She wants to do transplant surgery. Only a few top academic centers have such programs. If she does DO or Caribbean her chances of getting into such a top surgical residency are very slim. I think getting into a third-rate US MD program, and then getting an excellent USMLE score would be the best option. 39 MCAT is not that high to compensate for the low GPA, as the average at these top schools are around 38 anyways.

While I won't get into the issue of high MCAT: low gpa and DO vs Caribbean, there are approximately 75 accredited transplant surgery fellowships in the US. They are not just located at "top academic medical centers" and are widely considered amongst the least attractive and competitive fellowships after general surgery. Even a general surgery resident at a mediocre GS program can match into a TXP surgery fellowship.