What do aspiring and current M.Ds think of D.Os now?

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In my situation it was cheaper. I understand that DO schools aren't cheap. However I'm saving about 100 grand.

Let's try a sports analogy again (though you didn't do so well with those before).

I'm a starting football player at a mid-level high school. I'm 5'10 and play wide receiver. I'm pretty good but not great, but I want to keep playing football after high school.

Do I (a) go to Alabama and try to walk on? or (b) go to a D-III school.

In other words...you don't actually have to get rejected to self-select out. Lots of people do it in medicine and other careers.



Right I'm not questioning your reasons for going DO. Just pointing out that if there are people who have committed to DO schools straight out of high school, that's your starting pool for a pre-DO club right there.




As @NickNaylor put it above...the fact that others have done it doesn't necessarily mean it's sound decision making.


By your logic then everyone who goes pre PA or NP or RN doesn't actually want to do those careers. They either failed to go MD or self selected out. News flash not everyone wants to be MD. You go to the carribean as a backup DO is an alternative. The stats are very close too so it would make no sense to self select DO. If you think you can't make it into an MD school you probably won't get into DO either. The average is only 4 MCAT points and .2 GPA difference. Not to mention if we consider the DO schools with higher stats and MD ones with lower stats then the difference is tiny. To self select based on ability makes no sense for so many reasons but the small difference in the grades really is the nail in that coffin.

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Look, we are not oblivious or liars here. We understand that even today, admissions to a MD school is harder to get than admissions to a DO school. However it's undeniable that the gap in admissions standards between MD and DO schools is a lot smaller in 2014 then it was in 1994. I can name 6 DO schools right out of my head who are more competitive than a lot of low-tier MD schools. These schools are AZCOM, CCOM, Touro-CA, Touro-NY, TCOM, and MSUCOM.

Yes you can argue that the low-tier MD schools have low admissions numbers (MCAT score, GPA etc) because they are mission-based. Well, the same can be said for a lot of the DO schools as well. A lot of DO schools have a mission of producing PCPs who work in rural areas. I'll give you a recent example. Someone called S**n Y** was rejected from Campbell COM last week with a 33 MCAT and a 3.6 GPA. He was rejected because he didn't meet the mission.
 
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Look, we are not oblivious or liars here. We understand that even today, admissions to a MD school is harder to get than admissions to a DO school. However it's undeniable that the gap in admissions standards between MD and DO schools is a lot smaller in 2014 then it was in 1994. I can name 6 DO schools right out of my head who are more competitive than a lot of low-tier MD schools. These schools are AZCOM, CCOM, Touro-CA, Touro-NY, TCOM, and MSUCOM.

Yes you can argue that the low-tier MD schools have low admissions numbers (MCAT score, GPA etc) because they are mission-based. Well, the same can be said for a lot of the DO schools as well. A lot of DO schools have a mission of producing PCPs who work in rural areas. I'll give you a recent example. Someone called **** ***was rejected from Campbell COM last week with a 33 MCAT and a 3.6 GPA. He was rejected because he didn't meet the mission.
Please remove this applicant's name from your post.
 
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By your logic then everyone who goes pre PA or NP or RN doesn't actually want to do those careers.

You shouldn't be allowed to use the word logic.

PA and NP and RN are different careers than a physician.

DO and MD schools prepare you for the same career.

Is it really that hard for you to admit the obvious truth that a large segment of the DO population chose that route because they couldn't get into an MD school?
 
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You shouldn't be allowed to use the word logic.

PA and NP and RN are different careers than a physician.

DO and MD schools prepare you for the same career.

Is it really that hard for you to admit the obvious truth that a large segment of the DO population chose that route because they couldn't get into an MD school?

Both are medical careers that do a similar job. That's why your logic is flawed.

I don't want to debate with you. Its not going to go anywhere. This is silly.

BTW read my post where I already said that. (Same could be said about people who go to let's say evms versus Virginia tech so I don't really see your point.)
 
I have respect for both of them. It's sucks that a lot of people look down at them (D.O.'s). C'mon, even if they had lower stats, they still learned the same material as an MD (for the most part).
 
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Look, no doctor - M.D. or D.O. - loses sleep over what pre-meds (who are not currently attending ANY type of medical school) might think of them.

Over and out.
 
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Look, no doctor - M.D. or D.O. - loses sleep over what pre-meds (who are not currently attending ANY type of medical school) might think of them.

Over and out.

And no young attending doctor- MD or DO- loses sleep over what a nasty old attending thinks of them. Keep in mind that the M.D schools of the seventies and eighties probably had lower admission standards than the DO schools of 2014.
 
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By your logic then everyone who goes pre PA or NP or RN doesn't actually want to do those careers. They either failed to go MD or self selected out. News flash not everyone wants to be MD. You go to the carribean as a backup DO is an alternative. The stats are very close too so it would make no sense to self select DO. If you think you can't make it into an MD school you probably won't get into DO either. The average is only 4 MCAT points and .2 GPA difference. Not to mention if we consider the DO schools with higher stats and MD ones with lower stats then the difference is tiny. To self select based on ability makes no sense for so many reasons but the small difference in the grades really is the nail in that coffin.
Just one problem. PA, NP, RN are NOT THE SAME as a physician. The pathways are completely different. MD and DO are relatively the same curricular pathway with the same endpoint a state medical physician license. PA, NP, RN don't share that.

A PA, NP, RN can not get a state medical physician license. DO schools are well known to have lower matriculant statistics than MD schools. These are basic facts. The fact that you think "The average is only 4 MCAT points and .2 GPA difference." --- as if that's a miniscule difference shows you're either naive, trolling, or being purposefully deceitful. I swear your ability to extrapolate correlation and causation is lacking.

Similar does not mean SAME. I get that it's a little nuanced, but it makes a difference.
 
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And no young attending doctor- MD or DO- loses sleep over what a nasty old attending thinks of them. Keep in mind that the M.D schools of the seventies and eighties probably had lower admission standards than the DO schools of 2014.
Wrong. MD schools of the 70s and 80s placed an even a higher emphasis on GPA and MCAT above everything else.
 
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Wrong. MD schools of the 70s and 80s placed an even a higher emphasis on GPA and MCAT above everything else.

Please provide some proof to validate your claim.
 
Please provide some proof to validate your claim.
Talk to anyone who graduated then. There weren't that many MD schools and the emphasis on ECs, research, etc. wasn't that huge bc medicine wasn't a "hot" field then. Also as more and more of the public were complaining about physician's bedside manner, medical schools realized that they couldn't just rely on MCAT scores and GPA to get good doctors, they had to see other things. Not that these things couldn't be gamed also, but it was obvious that just relying on MCAT and GPA wasn't enough.
 
Talk to anyone who graduated then. There weren't that many MD schools and the emphasis on ECs, research, etc. wasn't that huge bc medicine wasn't a "hot" field then. Also as more and more of the public were complaining about physician's bedside manner, medical schools realized that they couldn't just rely on MCAT scores and GPA to get good doctors, they had to see other things. Not that these things couldn't be gamed also, but it was obvious that just relying on MCAT and GPA wasn't enough.

I understand that but could you provide exact numbers of the average MCAT score and GPA of matriculants of MD schools in the seventies?
 
I have respect for both of them. It's sucks that a lot of people look down at them (D.O.'s). C'mon, even if they had lower stats, they still learned the same the material as an MD (for the most part).
Look, no doctor - M.D. or D.O. - loses sleep over what pre-meds (who are not currently attending ANY type of medical school) might think of them.

Over and out.
Just one problem. PA, NP, RN are NOT THE SAME as a physician. The pathways are completely different. MD and DO are relatively the same curricular pathway with the same endpoint a state medical physician license. PA, NP, RN don't share that.

A PA, NP, RN can not get a state medical physician license. DO schools are well known to have lower matriculant statistics than MD schools. These are basic facts. The fact that you think "The average is only 4 MCAT points and .2 GPA difference." --- as if that's a miniscule difference shows you're either naive, trolling, or being purposefully deceitful. I swear your ability to extrapolate correlation and causation is lacking.

Similar does not mean SAME. I get that it's a little nuanced, but it makes a difference.

I took the MCAT. A 31 and a 27 (MD and do average) is small. Not to mention touros (ny and ca) MCAT average is a 30. Not a big difference. Carribean takes 20 (even big 4). That's a big difference. PA and NPs career is similar to medicine. They are on the doctoring side of medicine. With a contract with a physician they can even pratice independently.

Why? @southernIM has not badgered you in any way. He's clearing up your misconceptions and conclusions you've wrongly reached or at the very least help other people who might actually believe what you say as truth vs. actual reality.

Nothing productive will come lock this thread.



I'm really done talking about you with this stuff. I'm curious though. Do you believe there is a war on Christmas since you don't believe there is a war on women?
 
Nothing productive will come lock this thread.

If the threads bother you, don't read them. No need to complain to the mods every time you can't get along.

Do you believe there is a war on Christmas since you don't believe there is a war on women?

now this is a productive topic!
 
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Remember my first post Skip, not really the premed's knocking it...
 
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If the threads bother you, don't read them. No need to complain to the mods every time you can't get along.



now this is a productive topic!

Its not productive I'm just curious about derm visers thoughts.

This thread should be locked because its a beaten horse not because we have a disagreement.
 
Its not productive I'm just curious about derm visers thoughts.

This thread should be locked because its a beaten horse not because we have a disagreement.

why do you think it's a beaten horse? I think I bring a valid point that the admissions standards of DO schools in 2014 are a lot higher than the DO schools of 1994. Therefore DO programs should be looked at as much more than just a school for MD rejects.
 
DOs just have a wider skill set

It's as simple as that

Whether you actually use it is up to you
 
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why do you think it's a beaten horse? I think I bring a valid point that the admissions standards of DO schools in 2014 are a lot higher than the DO schools of 1994. Therefore DO programs should be looked at as much more than just a school for MD rejects.

You are perfectly correct many DO schools admissions standards are very high. I don't care if allo guys think my schools admissions is sub par/my education is sub par/my residencies are sub par. I know it isn't. I don't need validation. I just hope these type of guys don't talk anyone out of a DO school in favor of a foreign school and what happened to you happens to someone else.

However this is pure flame bait (what happened) and gets talk about a lot. The horse is dead can we just let it rest in peace.
 
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Yep, after all Medicare does allow you to bill for OMT
Yes bc the cardinal rule as to whether something is effective or not for a patient, is whether you can bill a government entity funded by taxpayer dollars for it.
 
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Yes bc the cardinal rule as to whether something is effective or not for a patient, is whether you can bill a government entity funded by taxpayer dollars for it.

did you find those numbers I asked you for? After all, since you claimed that it's harder for someone to get into a MD school in the seventies than a DO school in 2014, you should know what the incoming MCAT and GPA stats are right? Unless you just pull claims out of your ass.
 
You are perfectly correct many DO schools admissions standards are very high. I don't care if allo guys think my schools admissions is sub par/my education is sub par/my residencies are sub par. I know it isn't. I don't need validation. I just hope these type of guys don't talk anyone out of a DO school in favor of a foreign school and what happened to you happens to someone else.

However this is pure flame bait (what happened) and gets talk about a lot. The horse is dead can we just let it rest in peace.
No one here has said that if someone is unable to get into a DO school, that they should go to the Carribean. That would be even a worse mistake. But to say that there isn't a difference between MD vs. DO in terms of tuition costs, quality of MS-3 rotations as thought of by PDs, the specialties that are realistically available to them thru the match (even with the merger), is absolutely 100% wrong.
 
did you find those numbers I asked you for? After all, since you claimed that it's harder for someone to get into a MD school in the seventies than a DO school in 2014, you should know what the incoming MCAT and GPA stats are right? Unless you just pull claims out of your ass.
I realize your first response to feeling threatened is to name-call but you make yourself look worse. Like I said back in the 60s/70s, medicine was not a highly sought after path as it is now (mainly bc many other jobs have dried up). I said back in the 60s/70s medical school admissions committees relied much more on standardized tests/GPA when it came to giving acceptances. There wasn't really any "holistic review". Huge ECs and research weren't necessary back then as it didn't change the result much.

Also, you are not my boss, so you can order me to "find those numbers I asked you for" all you want.
 
I realize your first response to feeling threatened is to name-call but you make yourself look worse. Like I said back in the 60s/70s, medicine was not a highly sought after path as it is now (mainly bc many other jobs have dried up). I said back in the 60s/70s medical school admissions committees relied much more on standardized tests/GPA when it came to giving acceptances. There wasn't really any "holistic review". Huge ECs and research weren't necessary back then as it didn't change the result much.

Also, you are not my boss, so you can order me to "find those numbers I asked you for" all you want.

Okay now you're back-tracking, you clearly responded to my statement in which I said "DO schools in 2014 probably had higher admissions standards than MD schools in the seventies" by telling me I was WRONG and that MD schools in the seventies placed even greater emphasis on MCAT scores and GPA. Now, why would you say I'm wrong if you don't even know the numbers.

Sure I'm not your boss and you don't have to find those numbers but don't go around making claims and telling people they are wrong when you can't validate your own statements.
 
I went DO and could've gone MD. There's a few of us out there.
Well then hopefully you did a cost-benefit analysis beforehand of the DO school vs. MD school and accepted it. Just don't complain about it later as many people do and start screaming "D.O. Discrimination".
 
Okay now you're back-tracking, you clearly responded to my statement in which I said "DO schools in 2014 probably had higher admissions standards than MD schools in the seventies" by telling me I was WRONG and that MD schools in the seventies placed even greater emphasis on MCAT scores and GPA. Now, why would you say I'm wrong if you don't even know the numbers.

Sure I'm not your boss and you don't have to find those numbers but don't go around making claims and telling people they are wrong when you can't validate your own statements.
Your comparison of an MD school in the 1970s vs. a DO school in 2014 makes no sense. There is a reason the MCAT score is a comparison score in terms of percentile. The actual number doesn't matter - the percentile does. An MD school in 1970 and a DO school in 1970 OR an MD school in 2014 and DO school in 2014 is the proper comparison.
 
Okay now you're back-tracking, you clearly responded to my statement in which I said "DO schools in 2014 probably had higher admissions standards than MD schools in the seventies" by telling me I was WRONG and that MD schools in the seventies placed even greater emphasis on MCAT scores and GPA. Now, why would you say I'm wrong if you don't even know the numbers.

Sure I'm not your boss and you don't have to find those numbers but don't go around making claims and telling people they are wrong when you can't validate your own statements.
Yes. You said, "M.D schools of the seventies and eighties probably had lower admission standards than the DO schools of 2014." You have no proof to back that up.
 
Furthermore, the AOA, from what I've seen of their actions, seems like a really, really annoying society to have to work with - valid or not, the impression to me is that they do not advocate for their members half as well as they advocate for their own wallets.
:roflcopter:Which isn't like the AMA at all:rofl:
 
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Well then hopefully you did a cost-benefit analysis beforehand of the DO school vs. MD school and accepted it. Just don't complain about it later as many people do and start screaming "D.O. Discrimination".
Being an older student, the cost-benefit analysis was critical to my decision. I decided I'd be happier and more sane going to a DO school close to home than losing everyone and everything I cared about to move halfway across the country to whatever MD school accepted me.

My big goal in medical school is to keep my humanity and not lose touch with the people I care about. So far, I've been able to do that with the DO school I'm attending. Quite frankly my career and income aren't all that important to my happiness. All of this really adds up to DO school basically just working for me.
 
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Wrong. MD schools of the 70s and 80s placed an even a higher emphasis on GPA and MCAT above everything else.
They had lower overall stats was his point. Grades and MCAT were more important, but averages were much lower than today.

It could be argued that this is more a function of grade inflation and the MCAT prep industry, however. I wouldn't say the doctors of yesteryear were any less qualified than today, they just didn't have Kaplan/TBR/TPR (you just went out and took the MCAT after looking over your science books) and didn't have professors giving them gold stars for doing physics with a TI-89 (you were lucky to have a regular calculator).
 
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No one here has said that if someone is unable to get into a DO school, that they should go to the Carribean. That would be even a worse mistake. But to say that there isn't a difference between MD vs. DO in terms of tuition costs, quality of MS-3 rotations as thought of by PDs, the specialties that are realistically available to them thru the match (even with the merger), is absolutely 100% wrong.
That's not what I said
 
:roflcopter:Which isn't like the AMA at all:rofl:
Fair enough. Haven't read into it in a while as I've been busy, but I remember when all the merger stuff was going on I read a bunch of statements and policies being put out at the time, plus complaints of physicians in each, and eventually decided that the AOA sounded especially annoying. :shrug: I'm sure it's all the same, but since I've made my decision already I may as well rationalize it to myself by all means available!
 
Fair enough. Haven't read into it in a while as I've been busy, but I remember when all the merger stuff was going on I read a bunch of statements and policies being put out at the time, plus complaints of physicians in each, and eventually decided that the AOA sounded especially annoying. :shrug: I'm sure it's all the same, but since I've made my decision already I may as well rationalize it to myself by all means available!
I'm not telling you to change your mind, not at all. Going MD is the right choice for most students. I just wanted you to be aware of the fact that the major organizations that represent physicians on both the osteopathic and allopathic side are all about their own pockets and not at all about those they "represent." The AMA threw just about every physician under the bus with the Obamacare deal in exchange for many, many millions of dollars.
 
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I'm not telling you to change your mind, not at all. Going MD is the right choice for most students. I just wanted you to be aware of the fact that the major organizations that represent physicians on both the osteopathic and allopathic side are all about their own pockets and not at all about those they "represent." The AMA threw just about every physician under the bus with the Obamacare deal in exchange for many, many millions of dollars.
Haha, yeah no, I was trying to say that I get your point, but since it doesn't affect my overall decision I'm OK with that component being a toss-up/semi-blatant-rationalization!
 
I went DO and could've gone MD. There's a few of us out there.
Yep. Honestly, it wasn't that hard of a decision for me to go DO. I don't pretend that I had top-tier MD acceptances, but, in the end, my decision was more school-specific than degree-specific. It just so happened a DO school topped that list.
 
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By your logic then everyone who goes pre PA or NP or RN doesn't actually want to do those careers. They either failed to go MD or self selected out. News flash not everyone wants to be MD. You go to the carribean as a backup DO is an alternative. The stats are very close too so it would make no sense to self select DO. If you think you can't make it into an MD school you probably won't get into DO either. The average is only 4 MCAT points and .2 GPA difference. Not to mention if we consider the DO schools with higher stats and MD ones with lower stats then the difference is tiny. To self select based on ability makes no sense for so many reasons but the small difference in the grades really is the nail in that coffin.
rest of your post aside 4 mcat points is ~0.6-0.7 st dev. that's not a small difference.
 
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Okay now you're back-tracking, you clearly responded to my statement in which I said "DO schools in 2014 probably had higher admissions standards than MD schools in the seventies" by telling me I was WRONG and that MD schools in the seventies placed even greater emphasis on MCAT scores and GPA. Now, why would you say I'm wrong if you don't even know the numbers.
That medical schools in the 70s and 80s cared almost entirely about MCAT/GPA is not something that's up for debate. Instead of arguing why don't you read some damn history?

They had lower overall stats was his point. Grades and MCAT were more important, but averages were much lower than today.

It could be argued that this is more a function of grade inflation and the MCAT prep industry, however. I wouldn't say the doctors of yesteryear were any less qualified than today, they just didn't have Kaplan/TBR/TPR (you just went out and took the MCAT after looking over your science books) and didn't have professors giving them gold stars for doing physics with a TI-89 (you were lucky to have a regular calculator).
That's because the MCAT is a scaled test, something that has already been brought up. This is why average scores keep going up - it's not because we're getting smarted as a population. When there are more people taking the test, there will be more people scoring higher. It's really that simple.
I'm not telling you to change your mind, not at all. Going MD is the right choice for most students. I just wanted you to be aware of the fact that the major organizations that represent physicians on both the osteopathic and allopathic side are all about their own pockets and not at all about those they "represent." The AMA threw just about every physician under the bus with the Obamacare deal in exchange for many, many millions of dollars.
says you and Fox News
 
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Yep. Honestly, it wasn't that hard of a decision for me to go DO. I don't pretend that I had top-tier MD acceptances, but, in the end, my decision was more school-specific than degree-specific. It just so happened a DO school topped that list.

Yep. The degree a school gives out is only one part of the school.

rest of your post aside 4 mcat points is ~0.6-0.7 st dev. that's not a small difference.

3 questions could make up 3 points alone. 4 points isnt that big of a deal in reality. Not to mention that 4 points is the average. There are many DO students that have MCAT on par or 1-2 points lower then 31. Mutiple schools have mcats at 28-30 for DO.
 
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3 questions could make up 3 points alone. 4 points isnt that big of a deal in reality. Not to mention that 4 points is the average. There are many DO students that have MCAT on par or 1-2 points lower then 31. Mutiple schools have mcats at 28-30 for DO.
which is what makes the difference more significant, not less. i doubt 3 questions made up 3 points where you're scoring chief
 
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Who cares?
tumblr_mjyipqB7rD1qfvikeo1_500.gif
 
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