What does a publication even mean?

[Malic1ous]

To start off with some background...

Started research my freshman year. My PI back then pretty much gave a first author publication to all undergraduates by the end of their first year of working there. Unfortunately for me, as I was in my second semester of research, he decided to move to a different state/university. My project, on the verge of getting ready for submission, was abandoned.

Come year 2, I started at this super prestigious lab at my top-research university. Established myself really well, and got a project straight away. It has come to a point where now, as a senior, I am treated as a grad student and I have 3 undergraduates working under me, on the project I had initially started.

I now realize that publications have different levels of prestige. My dreams pretty much shattered when I found out that my project won't be published for another year and a half, despite all this significant data. But I am applying before then, so med schools won't see the publication.

Then to top things off, I was talking to someone on admissions committee for a big research university, and they said that my research will be looked as pretty insignificant without a publication. It shows that you worked, but theres no way to tell how hard you worked. Can someone say something about this?

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[hoihaie]

have you presented your stuff at any conferences, oral or poster? If you haven't, I'm sure your university has some sort of research forum for undergrads where you can present something there before you apply. Also try to submit abstracts to upcoming conferences like AACR (due in october i think).

 

[phunky]

.

 

[Malic1ous]

@hoihaie Somebody else told me about that as well. Will that make a significant difference?

 

[hoihaie]

@hoihaie Somebody else told me about that as well. Will that make a significant difference?

It'll definitely make your research experience look better, but i don't know how much better. THese things are a way to show the adcoms that your time in research is productive and stuff

 

[mimelim]

To start off with some background...

Started research my freshman year. My PI back then pretty much gave a first author publication to all undergraduates by the end of their first year of working there. Unfortunately for me, as I was in my second semester of research, he decided to move to a different state/university. My project, on the verge of getting ready for submission, was abandoned.

Come year 2, I started at this super prestigious lab at my top-research university. Established myself really well, and got a project straight away. It has come to a point where now, as a senior, I am treated as a grad student and I have 3 undergraduates working under me, on the project I had initially started.

I now realize that publications have different levels of prestige. My dreams pretty much shattered when I found out that my project won't be published for another year and a half, despite all this significant data. But I am applying before then, so med schools won't see the publication.

Then to top things off, I was talking to someone on admissions committee for a big research university, and they said that my research will be looked as pretty insignificant without a publication. It shows that you worked, but theres no way to tell how hard you worked. Can someone say something about this?

I'm a little confused. By my reading, you have been in your second lab for now ~2 years and are functioning as a grad student with multiple other warm bodies working under you. Is that right?

 

[cs24]

To start off with some background...

Started research my freshman year. My PI back then pretty much gave a first author publication to all undergraduates by the end of their first year of working there. Unfortunately for me, as I was in my second semester of research, he decided to move to a different state/university. My project, on the verge of getting ready for submission, was abandoned.

Come year 2, I started at this super prestigious lab at my top-research university. Established myself really well, and got a project straight away. It has come to a point where now, as a senior, I am treated as a grad student and I have 3 undergraduates working under me, on the project I had initially started.

I now realize that publications have different levels of prestige. My dreams pretty much shattered when I found out that my project won't be published for another year and a half, despite all this significant data. But I am applying before then, so med schools won't see the publication.

Then to top things off, I was talking to someone on admissions committee for a big research university, and they said that my research will be looked as pretty insignificant without a publication. It shows that you worked, but theres no way to tell how hard you worked. Can someone say something about this?

Plenty of people do a lot of research without getting a publication. My undergrad research didn't turn into a publication until the end of my M1 year, but research was still a major strong point in my application. You will be fine.

 

[ridethecliche]

Sounds like the OP is stuck in an existential/metaphysical twilight zone.

/shudder

 

[Goro]

My my, somebody is pretty hoidy-toidy! Must have been a Harvard man. It's hard enough for grad students and post-docs to get publications in a timely fashion, much less a UG student.

A letter from a PI can also testify that you were productive int he lab, and more importantly, understand what science is all about.

Can my learned colleague @LizzyM can enlighten us?

Then to top things off, I was talking to someone on admissions committee for a big research university, and they said that my research will be looked as pretty insignificant without a publication. It shows that you worked, but theres no way to tell how hard you worked. Can someone say something about this?[/QUOTE]

 

[PakiMDDreamer]

I think, though I can't say for sure, that your extensive research experience speaks a lot despite no publication. You showed commitment to a project and clearly have a high understanding of all of it considering the responsibility they've given you. I also agree that if a rec from PI is in your app it would make a huge difference because he/she can speak to how hard you worked and how well you worked.

I've always thought about publishing as part of the "business" aspect of medical schools that are still money-making universities or schools beyond the academic institution you're dreaming to be a part of. If you published science material when you were young, you're more likely to do it again later, and later on this school's name will accompany it. If you're research was cutting edge and in a top-tier journal, it says even more because you were way ahead of the game beyond even some seasoned older professionals when you were young, so who knows what you'll do once you're at this school? So churned out publications means more prestige for schools, that's how I've looked at it though I think it might be a way too cynical perspective.

 

[Law2Doc]

To start off with some background...

Started research my freshman year. My PI back then pretty much gave a first author publication to all undergraduates by the end of their first year of working there. Unfortunately for me, as I was in my second semester of research, he decided to move to a different state/university. My project, on the verge of getting ready for submission, was abandoned.

Come year 2, I started at this super prestigious lab at my top-research university. Established myself really well, and got a project straight away. It has come to a point where now, as a senior, I am treated as a grad student and I have 3 undergraduates working under me, on the project I had initially started.

I now realize that publications have different levels of prestige. My dreams pretty much shattered when I found out that my project won't be published for another year and a half, despite all this significant data. But I am applying before then, so med schools won't see the publication.

Then to top things off, I was talking to someone on admissions committee for a big research university, and they said that my research will be looked as pretty insignificant without a publication. It shows that you worked, but theres no way to tell how hard you worked. Can someone say something about this?

You do realize that publication will be even more useful as you apply to residency? It's not like it has to happen in time for med school application for it to be of significant value...

 

[LizzyM]

Will you have a senior thesis to show for this work? Some adcoms will count that as "as good as" a publication for an undergrad.
It would be nice if you could manage a presentation of your work at a mtg, even if it is conference for undergrads. Poster or podium, it's all good.

 

[Malic1ous]

Thanks to everyone who has replied, really appreciate the help.

I'm a little confused. By my reading, you have been in your second lab for now ~2 years and are functioning as a grad student with multiple other warm bodies working under you. Is that right?

-Though I do appreciate the skepticism, can we please try to stick with answering the bigger question here? I would love to explain why, but I also need to maintain some anonymity. One word answer though: hard work.

You do realize that publication will be even more useful as you apply to residency? It's not like it has to happen in time for med school application for it to be of significant value...

Wow, did not know. I always wondered why med school students (not MD/PhD) did research during their breaks. I guess I know now.

Will you have a senior thesis to show for this work? Some adcoms will count that as "as good as" a publication for an undergrad.
It would be nice if you could manage a presentation of your work at a mtg, even if it is conference for undergrads. Poster or podium, it's all good.

Yes! I will be presenting it as senior thesis. I didn't know that would be beneficial, good to know.

I apologize if I sounded as if I am super-intelligent or something in the original post. My strong engineering background just came in really handy in a very physiology/medicine intensive research area. Therefore, I was able to perfect a protocol which seemed very unlikely when I had initially joined. Otherwise, I am a very average pre-med student at best. Due to recent events described in the original post, I had been very discouraged to a point where I have stopped going to lab since last week and pretty much reply to questions via email for the other undergrads who are working on this project.

 

[moisne]

[Q UOTE="Malic1ous, post: 15560257, member: 551937"]To start off with some background...

Started research my freshman year. My PI back then pretty much gave a first author publication to all undergraduates by the end of their first year of working there. Unfortunately for me, as I was in my second semester of research, he decided to move to a different state/university. My project, on the verge of getting ready for submission, was abandoned.

Come year 2, I started at this super prestigious lab at my top-research university. Established myself really well, and got a project straight away. It has come to a point where now, as a senior, I am treated as a grad student and I have 3 undergraduates working under me, on the project I had initially started.

I now realize that publications have different levels of prestige. My dreams pretty much shattered when I found out that my project won't be published for another year and a half, despite all this significant data. But I am applying before then, so med schools won't see the publication.

Then to top things off, I was talking to someone on admissions committee for a big research university, and they said that my research will be looked as pretty insignificant without a publication. It shows that you worked, but theres no way to tell how hard you worked. Can someone say something about this?[/QUOTE]

Your last paper was close to submission right? Just submit it. Your old professor can still submit it even in a different place.

 

[Law2Doc]

...
Your last paper was close to submission right? Just submit it. Your old professor can still submit it even in a different place.

It is unethical for two people to submit the same paper to two different journals. And journals pretty much will make you certify that a paper isn't under consideration elsewhere. In the medical/health sciences field you really aren't allowed to send papers out to a second journal until the first rejects it. (this wasn't the rule for legal publications).

 

[STLMako91]

It is unethical for two people to submit the same paper to two different journals. And journals pretty much will make you certify that a paper isn't under consideration elsewhere. In the medical/health sciences field you really aren't allowed to send papers out to a second journal until the first rejects it. (this wasn't the rule for legal publications).

Could you expand on this and why it's unethical? I'm still really new to the whole research thing and am hoping to finish a publication at the moment and don't want to do anything unethical.

 

[mvenus929]

It is unethical for two people to submit the same paper to two different journals. And journals pretty much will make you certify that a paper isn't under consideration elsewhere. In the medical/health sciences field you really aren't allowed to send papers out to a second journal until the first rejects it. (this wasn't the rule for legal publications).

I think he/she was implying that the paper could be submitted even if the PI was working at a different institution--not that both would be submitting the same paper/work. But maybe I just misinterpreted.

 

[Law2Doc]

I think he/she was implying that the paper could be submitted even if the PI was working at a different institution--not that both would be submitting the same paper/work. But maybe I just misinterpreted.

If that's what was meant, that's fine, but I sure wouldn't have phrased it the way the prior poster did.

 

[Law2Doc]

Could you expand on this and why it's unethical? I'm still really new to the whole research thing and am hoping to finish a publication at the moment and don't want to do anything unethical.

In this field you submit to ONLY one journal and then you it and wait until they make a decision. You can't submit to a bunch and see who wants it first. Not the way it works in this field. And places make you state it isn't under consideration elsewhere -- that's where the ethics comes in because you can't mislead them into thinking they have exclusivity.

 

[STLMako91]

In this field you submit to ONLY one journal and then you it and wait until they make a decision. You can't submit to a bunch and see who wants it first. Not the way it works in this field. And places make you state it isn't under consideration elsewhere -- that's where the ethics comes in because you can't mislead them into thinking they have exclusivity.

I get it now. Thank you!

 

[moisne]

It is unethical for two people to submit the same paper to two different journals. And journals pretty much will make you certify that a paper isn't under consideration elsewhere. In the medical/health sciences field you really aren't allowed to send papers out to a second journal until the first rejects it. (this wasn't the rule for legal publications).

His professor left - I assume he didn't even send in the paper so there would not be an issue. Furthermore, OP can simply email prof to send in the paper for publication.

 

[Heplayer92]

Honestly, I feel like in the majority of circumstances, you just have to be in the right place at the right time. Sure, working hard can yield a publication...networking to get into a lab that publishes multiple times a year can yield a publication...but it just depends on so many factors. It's much easier/common to present at conferences/poster sessions etc...which are also solid experiences. Don't be so "set" on a publication. Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't. Best of luck though!

 

[YamNMangos]

You do realize that publication will be even more useful as you apply to residency? It's not like it has to happen in time for med school application for it to be of significant value...

Going off of that, out of curiosity, how much does research experience in UG count towards residency apps? I noticed for residency apps, especially for competitive specialties, applicants tend to have >4 publications on average. During residency apps do they consider everything from UG as well (ex. posters, pubs, presentations), or do only the pubs matter?

 

[Law2Doc]

Going off of that, out of curiosity, how much does research experience in UG count towards residency apps? I noticed for residency apps, especially for competitive specialties, applicants tend to have >4 publications on average. During residency apps do they consider everything from UG as well (ex. posters, pubs, presentations), or do only the pubs matter?

Undergrad stuff doesn't count that much -- more recent is always better. However, a publication is a publication, and this one will happen when the OP is a Med student. Which means the revisions and galley edits happen while in med school (journals rarely publish as is). Which makes it a publication something you will have worked on while in med school.

 

[IslandStyle808]

Honestly, I feel like in the majority of circumstances, you just have to be in the right place at the right time. Sure, working hard can yield a publication...networking to get into a lab that publishes multiple times a year can yield a publication...but it just depends on so many factors. It's much easier/common to present at conferences/poster sessions etc...which are also solid experiences. Don't be so "set" on a publication. Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't. Best of luck though!

This is usually true. However, don't think you can't make your own circumstances. I did a review article (I suggested the idea and I got the go ahead from my PI) for a research rotations almost two years ago, since my PI could not give me my own project. About a year and a half later it got published.

 

[IslandStyle808]

Undergrad stuff doesn't count that much -- more recent is always better. However, a publication is a publication, and this one will happen when the OP is a Med student. Which means the revisions and galley edits happen while in med school (journals rarely publish as is). Which makes it a publication something you will have worked on while in med school.

I will also add on to this statement. One could definitely make revisions to the paper during medical school, unless they are major revisions that require doing a certain experiment again. If in this scenario, it would be almost impossible for the paper to be published. Unless the PI and other students are able to do the experiment again, while OP is in medial school.

 

[Law2Doc]

I will also add on to this statement. One could definitely make revisions to the paper during medical school, unless they are major revisions that require doing a certain experiment again. If in this scenario, it would be almost impossible for the paper to be published. Unless the PI and other students are able to do the experiment again, while OP is in medial school.

This can be a problem, but if your results are "publication worthy" you should be able to get it published someplace with some changes and edits and qualifiers and not having to go back to the lab. Will you have to buff up your limitations section for these possible shortcomings? Yes. Will the inability to go back to the lab mean some journals might not want it? Sure. But if it's publication worthy otherwise it will find a home somewhere else. I know lots of people that published things they started while a premed during med school.

 

[IslandStyle808]

This can be a problem, but if your results are "publication worthy" you should be able to get it published someplace with some changes and edits and qualifiers and not having to go back to the lab. Will you have to buff up your limitations section for these possible shortcomings? Yes. Will the inability to go back to the lab mean some journals might not want it? Sure. But if it's publication worthy otherwise it will find a home somewhere else. I know lots of people that published things they started while a premed during med school.

Even if you have the data which is publication worthy, there will still be those that think you need to have major revisions done to the work. Sometimes these changes are justified and sometimes they are not (when they are not this is because it is a game of politics with reviewers). I have seen papers that had taken half a year to a year to make such modifications. If my PI felt these major revisions are unfounded, then of course he will take it to another journal. Just as you have mentioned. However, there will definitely be publications that a Phd student or PI "think" are publication worthy, but are not. Not saying this is true in most scenarios, but a few.

I too know a few medical students that have publications done from pre-med year and were revising them in medical school. I never said it was not possible, but I stated that redoing a procedure is a probable outcome, even with a publication worthy paper. I suggested that OP be aware of this.

 

[Law2Doc]

... I never said it was not possible, but I stated that redoing a procedure is a probable outcome, even with a publication worthy paper...

I agree that it's a "possible" outcome, but it's wrong to say a "probable" one. Probable implies more likely than not. (>50% chance). It's not. More like 20%. Yes it can happen, but not to most.

And again this all turns on how realistic your assessment of whether this is something publishable. If you are being unrealistic about this, it's irrelevant because it's not getting published anyhow.