What exactly does nontraditional student mean?

[noroxytocin]

Sorry if this is posted somewhere else, but my iPhone doesn't seem to let me click on certain specific threads. Anyway, does it mean like minorities, or naturopathicly oriented people?

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[Law2Doc]

Um no. It's people who don't go to med school via the normal progression, straight from college at 20-23. Basically the geezers, career changers, soldiers, people with families, homes and lives etc. besides being college students. Some are minorities but that's not part of what make them Nontraditional. None are naturopathically oriented -- people with these views tend not to go into evidence based medical fields.

And fwiw, it's hard to imagine you could nor figure this out by perusing virtually any thread on this board, so you may have outed yourself as trying to start something.

 

[noroxytocin]

Okay, thanks. I also didn't want to say this because I figured people would say I won't be able to become a doctor, but I am also completely blind. So does that make me a nontraditional student, or does that only relate to the time you apply to med school?
But yeah, I figured my question was asked pretty commonly, but for some reason my phone wouldn't let me click on any of the nontraditional threads, even though I could click on some other threads.

 

[kraskadva]

Okay, thanks. I also didn't want to say this because I figured people would say I won't be able to become a doctor, but I am also completely blind. So does that make me a nontraditional student, or does that only relate to the time you apply to med school?
But yeah, I figured my question was asked pretty commonly, but for some reason my phone wouldn't let me click on any of the nontraditional threads, even though I could click on some other threads.

Typically non-trad just relates to timeline, but there are some exceptions (such as teen moms, military, etc., as noted above).

And while you don't want to hear this, if you are blind then you will have serious difficulties in getting into medical school.
Look up the "Technical Standards" for any medical school, they often specifically include vision as a requirement. Here's the relevant bits from UPenn as an example...

They must have the functional use of the sense of vision, hearing, and equilibrium. Their exteroceptive (touch, pain, and temperature) and proprioceptive (position, pressure, movement, sterogenesis, and vibratory) senses must be sufficiently intact to enable them to carry out all activities required for a complete medical education. Candidates must have motor function capabilities to meet the demands of medical education and the demands of total patient care. The candidates for the medical degree must be able to independently demonstrate a range of abilities and skills. Examples include but are not limited to the following:

1. Observation - the ability to observe is required for demonstration, visual presentations, lectures, and laboratories. A candidate must be able to observe patients accurately and completely, both at a distance and closely. This ability requires functional vision, hearing, and somatic sensation and is enhanced by a sense of smell. The candidate should also be able to comprehend three-dimensional relationships and the spatial relationships of structures.
2. Communication - a candidate should be able to independently communicate with and observe patients in order to elicit information, perceive non-verbal communication, and describe changes in mood, activity, and posture. A candidate must be able to communicate effectively and sensitively with patients including not only speech but also reading and writing. Communication in oral and written form with the health care team must be effective and efficient.
3. Motor - the candidate should have sufficient motor function to elicit information from patients by palpation, auscultation, percussion, and other diagnostic maneuvers. A candidate should be able to interpret basic laboratory tests, carry out basic procedures (e.g., phlebotomy, intravenous cannulation, rectal and pelvic examination, splinting of the extremities) as well as read EKGs and x-rays. Candidates should be able to execute motor movements reasonably required to provide general care and emergency treatment to patients. Examples of emergency treatment reasonably required of physicians are cardiopulmonary resuscitation, the administration of intravenous medication, application of pressure to stop bleeding, the opening of obstructed airways, the suturing of simple wounds, and the performance of simple obstetrical maneuvers. Such actions require coordination of both gross and fine muscular movement, equilibrium, and functional uses of senses of touch, vision, and hearing.
4. Intellectual - conceptual, integrative and quantitative abilities in problem solving are critical skills demanded of physicians. The candidate should be able to integrate and assimilate large volumes of information from multiple sources and multiple educational experiences in a timely fashion, and be able to apply that to problem solving and decision making.
5. Behavioral and Social Attributes - the candidate must be able to use his/her intellectual ability, exercise good judgment, and complete all responsibilities attendant to making the appropriate diagnosis and professionally caring for patients.

Not to say you don't have the drive or intellectual capacity to be a doctor (I have no idea), but to be a doctor you first have to get through medical school. And there just aren't braille or read aloud versions of EKGs or X-Rays or Histology slides. There are a couple blind medical students that I've heard of, but they were above and beyond exceptional, to the extent that the medical school would be willing to make accommodations for them. The kind of exceptional that very few people achieve, even without a disability.

If your driving passion is neuroendocrinology (and based on your other posts it's not clear that you really know all that much about this field) then the best bet (and the path of less resistance) would likely be a PhD path.

Best if luck to you.

 

[noroxytocin]

Thank you--it is good to know about these general requirements. I really appreciate that you went out of your way to tell me about these. However, I probably know more about neuroendocrinology than most people. The reason I don't know a whole lot is because I am only in my second year of college. There is also a website that has free books for people who have reading disabilities and who are blind, and I'm reading a lot of the books on there about medicine. So these will help me to have a lot more knowledge about it in general by the time I apply to medical school, or whatever I choose to apply to. I will consider only getting a PhD. However, I think that the interneurons are what make up for sensory or motor neuron loss, because I really am smarter than most people. I tested into calculus, which I'm taking right now. I probably understand the concepts at least as well as everyone else, even though I can't read the board. Anyway, I do really appreciate u giving me advice about this, and I will consider it. I guess what I really need to do is get in contact with blind people with MDs, PhDs, and if anyone has both. I'm telling you though, you have no idea how smart I am, and this is by far my greatest passion. But deciding whether to get the MD, PhD, or both is probably the most important thing for me to figure out now that you mention it, which probably applies to many other people as well.

 

[noroxytocin]

One thing I want to specify is that although I have at least a basic knowledge of neuroendocrinology, I don't know a lot about what neuroendocrinologists do. Every time I look up how to become one, the only slightly applicable information is how to become a neuro-ophthalmologist.

 

[kraskadva]

One thing I want to specify is that although I have at least a basic knowledge of neuroendocrinology, I don't know a lot about what neuroendocrinologists do. Every time I look up how to become one, the only slightly applicable information is how to become a neuro-ophthalmologist.

Well your search parameters may be a bit off then... By googling just "neuroendocrinologist" I came up with one who writes a blog (here) and it looks like he did a neurology residency after med school, then 2 fellowships in behavioral neurology and neuroendocrinology.
With that much post-grad training and specialization, you wouldn't find many of them around and they'd mostly be in big cities. So maybe google "Neuroendocrinologist" plus what ever major city is closest to you. If you get a hit, then contact them and ask (respectfully and humbly**) to shadow or at least meet to discuss the career path.
Though if you have a pituitary tumor as you mentioned in the other thread, do you not have a neurologist or neuroendocrinologist that you work with? Because they would be a good contact as well.

**humbly, because compared to them you know nothing, and your previous posts come off as a bit snotty as well as naive. Not that you necessarily meant it that way, but that's how they sound so you should probably think about your tone before talking to someone (a busy doctor) you want to do you a favor.

 

[noroxytocin]

I saw the blog--I just didn't think about contacting them. I completely understand what you mean by coming off as being snotty, but I only want people to at least consider that I might be able to become a doctor. Whenever I say that's what I want to be, the first thing people say is that it's impossible for a blind person to become one, so I just want people to at least entertain the possibility. Although getting a PhD could be a good choice. But yeah, compared to any doctor I know nothing about medicine or how to get into the field, so I would certainly be very humble and respectful. I also have a neurologist and endocrinologist, so I'll ask what they think next time I see them.

 

[kraskadva]

Well, it's obviously not impossible, since it's happened before. But is is a big hurdle you have to acknowledge and negotiate.
It's perhaps more productive to come off as thoughtful and considered rather than purely defensive (i.e. "Yes I recognize that my blindness is an obstacle, but there are x, y, and z methods of dealing with it for the situations where that would be an issue..." vs. "I'll show you!") I'm sure you have more experience with this than I do, but it's always easier to get accommodations when you're specific about what you need.

I think talking to your neurologist and endocrinologist would be a great place to start. I'm sure both together fill the role of a neuroendocrinologist in your care, so they can discuss the day to day aspects of the job and the necessary training, and they would possibly have colleagues that they could put you in touch with.

 

[Mad Jack]

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/7318398/n.../blind-medical-student-earns-md/#.VDtRLr5H2Rs

There have been blind, quadriplegic, and many other types of physicians that have graduated with disabilities over the years. What you want to do is not impossible, despite what some others might tell you, but it is quite an uphill battle.

 

[noroxytocin]

I agree. I guess the reason my mentality in this case was I'll show you was because I didn't know of specific examples of how to get past certain barriers, like looking at x rays. I usually explain to people how I'll be able to do things though. On a side note, why do people say it would be easier to get a PhD? I mean, once I got it, I would think people would point out that I can't see the results of the experiments, so that would be even more difficult. I'll probably talk to blind doctors as well if I can, and see what they think too.

 

[Law2Doc]

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/7318398/n.../blind-medical-student-earns-md/#.VDtRLr5H2Rs

There have been blind, quadriplegic, and many other types of physicians that have graduated with disabilities over the years. What you want to do is not impossible, despite what some others might tell you, but it is quite an uphill battle.

Yes and no. The one or two blind med student grads I'm aware of were able to get their degrees but never actually found a residency that would take them, so never actually became licensed practicing physicians. (The article you link notes the guy got an MD and went right into a PhD program.) Was more of a feel good public relations move by the schools. Even if a med school decides it will make reasonable accommodations to let someone complete the schooling despite not really being capable of doing a lot of what the typical med student needs to do on rotations to graduate, that doesn't mean any residency would find it similarly reasonable or feasible. Assuming the OP isn't pulling our chain, it's perhaps theoretically possible for him to find a med school that might let him get the degree, maybe. But less likely he could ever do an intern year and become an endocrinologist. You have to realize that after the first two years of med school, where book learning is paramount (which I suppose OP could do fine at) around 70% of your education is going to be on the job learning, stuff you see and do on the wards. Very visually oriented. The notion of "see one, do one, teach one" doesn't work if can you never see one. You can't be the guy running the code in the middle of the night if you can't see and assess the situation. You can't force your co-residents to do all the procedures because it not safe for you to handle sharps you can't see. When you get paged in the midfle of the night, you are the only guy there - you dont get an assistant. Much of the physical exam of a patient is visual. Every procedure requires visual input. So no, most residencies simply aren't able to accommodate. They need every intern to be able to independently function by themselves with minimum accommodation. OP, it might benefit you to see how close to the career you want you can get to without a medical degree because frankly it's going to take a lot of years and a med school that wants to make the news just to get to the point to find out you can't get a residency.

 

[noroxytocin]

Interesting. That makes a lot of sense, but then why would they let him go into the PhD program if the MD degree didn't really do anything? I mean, if he couldn't do his intern year, so he couldn't become a doctor, what could he do with a PhD? Also, what do you mean by OP in this context?
What wouldn't work with sharps though? I could still do the injections, and once they were in the box or whatever, they would be safe.

 

[noroxytocin]

Also, hypothetically if I could afford it with all the other debt I would have, would I be able to hire an assistant for the things that were too visual?

 

[Law2Doc]

Interesting. That makes a lot of sense, but then why would they let him go into the PhD program if the MD degree didn't really do anything? I mean, if he couldn't do his intern year, so he couldn't become a doctor, what could he do with a PhD? Also, what do you mean by OP in this context?
What wouldn't work with sharps though? I could still do the injections, and once they were in the box or whatever, they would be safe.

OP means original poster. I have no clue what the guy is going to do with a PhD -- the article says thats what he's did after getting his MD. Tells me the MD without Residency didn't really get him to his final desired destination.

I don't know what you are talking about "I could still do the injections" -- it's not like people are handing things to you and saying stick this here -- you have a tray with lots of sharp things on it, thing you have to choose amongst and assemble, draw out medications, swap needle tips for blunts and smaller gauges, and lots of sharp thing you might be asked to handle, not just needles but scalpels, sutures, wires, lidocaine bottles, etc. Then when you inject anything into a patient you'll always want to draw back to make sure you are in (or not in, depending on what you are injecting) a vessel, also requiring a visual cue. Or you may need to find a vessel with ultrasound if someone's a tougher stick. And so on. I think you are imagining a less "do it yourself in the middle of the night" kind of world. That's not where interns live.

 

[Law2Doc]

Also, hypothetically if I could afford it with all the other debt I would have, would I be able to hire an assistant for the things that were too visual?

Probably would be tough both for medmal and HIPAA reasons let alone because it's tough to find helpers to work 80 hours a week including weekends and overnights for the kind of money we are talking. Hospitals don't want someone without training and not on their insurance carrier handling sharps or examining patients or getting involved in codes, etc.

 

[noroxytocin]

Wow. I guess I should try to contact him and see what he is going to do, and ask him for advice. I guess I thought the needles would have guards on them, so once you put the guard back on the needle, it would be safe to touch. Either way, I have no idea what I would do for a scalpel. I also thought internal medicine wouldn't involve that, but I guess you would be doing your internship for everything and not just that. The reason I kind of thought it would be less do-it-yourself, although not as much as I think you thought I thought, is that there are nurses, and some technology makes up for it. But again, I'll have to consider all of this. Would you expect that just getting a PhD and doing research would be viable if this wasn't an option?

 

[Law2Doc]

Wow. I guess I should try to contact him and see what he is going to do, and ask him for advice. I guess I thought the needles would have guards on them, so once you put the guard back on the needle, it would be safe to touch. Either way, I have no idea what I would do for a scalpel. I also thought internal medicine wouldn't involve that, but I guess you would be doing your internship for everything and not just that. The reason I kind of thought it would be less do-it-yourself, although not as much as I think you thought I thought, is that there are nurses, and some technology makes up for it. But again, I'll have to consider all of this. Would you expect that just getting a PhD and doing research would be viable if this wasn't an option?

In my years of residency I've yet to see a facility that uses needle guards, if they even exist for most of the procedures an intern might be asked to do. The nurses "assist", in that they get you equipment and drop it onto your sterile field for you or hold meds up for you to sterilely fill syringes from, but they don't often put on sterile gloves and help.

IM does fewer procedures than surgery but that's not the same as none. And you rotate through other disciplines during intern year anyhow. If a patients line is oozing and your attending asks you to check it out and if needed throw a purse string suture in, or if a nurse is having trouble passing a foley or NG tube, or if a guy needs a line in and the nurse is having trouble in the middle of the night, you are the one who has to deal with that. There are no nurses and technology that are going to make your presence superfluous. The intern isn't just needed for cerebral reasons -- he's the hands on get dirty grunt on the front line.

 

[noroxytocin]

Okay. The reason I thought they had guards is because I take growth hormone shots every day, so I thought all needles had them. It's good to know about how I would still have to do non-IM procedures and stuff like that. I hate to say this, but maybe I will have to get a PhD without an MD.

 

[Goro]

With a PhD it very much depends upon the field, and so you don't necessarily need to do cell culture or western blotting. Computational biology is one field that comes to mind as being possible for you.

I've answered this in another thread I believe, but I have heard of blind psychiatrists. But as Mad Jack has pointed out, you have a huge uphill battle, and I keep thinking along the lines of "this gene deficiency has 10 known cases in the medical literature".

One could always teach, if you couldn't practice Medicine.

I agree. I guess the reason my mentality in this case was I'll show you was because I didn't know of specific examples of how to get past certain barriers, like looking at x rays. I usually explain to people how I'll be able to do things though. On a side note, why do people say it would be easier to get a PhD? I mean, once I got it, I would think people would point out that I can't see the results of the experiments, so that would be even more difficult. I'll probably talk to blind doctors as well if I can, and see what they think too.

 

[Law2Doc]

... but I have heard of blind psychiatrists. ..

The question is were they blind before they did residency? I'm betting not, or the Wisconsin guy wouldn't have been such a big story.

 

[noroxytocin]

Is the Wisconsin guy the only person to do a residency while being blind? People used to tell me that there were plenty of blind doctors, but that doesn't matter if I can't do an internship, residency, and/or fellowship.
I might teach as a last, last resort, but I want to actually discover things and improve peoples' lives, no matter how long the research takes, or for the peoples' lives to improve. Also, if I do become a doctor or get a PhD and do research, I'll be able to help other blind people to do the same thing in the future. I don't want to insult teachers at all because they are extremely valuable, but teaching just isn't the same as actually saving and improving peoples' lives, or making revolutionary discoveries.

 

[Goro]

I believe so. But we're still talking about < 5 people, from what I remember.

The question is were they blind before they did residency? I'm betting not, or the Wisconsin guy wouldn't have been such a big story.

 

[Law2Doc]

Is the Wisconsin guy the only person to do a residency while being blind? People used to tell me that there were plenty of blind doctors, but that doesn't matter if I can't do an internship, residency, and/or fellowship.
I might teach as a last, last resort, but I want to actually discover things and improve peoples' lives, no matter how long the research takes, or for the peoples' lives to improve. Also, if I do become a doctor or get a PhD and do research, I'll be able to help other blind people to do the same thing in the future. I don't want to insult teachers at all because they are extremely valuable, but teaching just isn't the same as actually saving and improving peoples' lives, or making revolutionary discoveries.

Then sounds like PhD is going to be the best path for you. Lots of opportunity to improve people's lives through research.

 

[noroxytocin]

It does seem like the best path if I can't be a doctor as well, although I'm definitely going to see if it's possible for me to be one. I'd like to be able to do clinical research to help patients with things there wasn't enough information about, and also use the knowledge of how medicine is practiced to help my research be implemented better

 

[gyngyn]

It does seem like the best path if I can't be a doctor as well, although I'm definitely going to see if it's possible for me to be one. I'd like to be able to do clinical research to help patients with things there wasn't enough information about, and also use the knowledge of how medicine is practiced to help my research be implemented better

Like pilots, physicians have been allowed to set technical standards for admission. If you can find a medical school that has no technical standards or has a strategy for reasonable accommodation of your disability, then the extraordinarily uphill battle of acquiring the clinical skills necessary for a successful residency application are open to you.

There are many ways to be of service. Being a physician is only one.

 

[Law2Doc]

Like pilots, physicians have been allowed to set technical standards for admission. If you can find a medical school that has no technical standards or has a strategy for reasonable accommodation of your disability, then the extraordinarily uphill battle of acquiring the clinical skills necessary for a successful residency application are open to you...

Bear in mind that that medical school is only the first door you need to get through. The much harder door, residency, is another four years out. Getting an MD without being able to secure a residency spot just means you are starting your PhD 4 years later and quite a bit poorer. No one can guaranty you a residency spot before you start, and the degree of accommodations required to complete residency dwarfs the pretty significant accommodations you would need to successfully complete med school.

So OP I'm not sure how you are going to determine if it's "possible" to be a doctor from the onset -- all you can really do is take a very big gamble with very low odds. And be prepared to shrug it off and move on in four years when residencies likely decide they can't realistically create a setting where you could be accommodated to succeed without leaving them shorthanded. Mostly I think you need to understand what interns actually might be asked to do on call, alone at night, because you are apparently picturing something much more cerebral and measured and assisted and less hands on and get dirty.

 

[noroxytocin]

Thanks. It's good to know that it could perhaps be possible, although it's of course good to know why it couldn't happen as well. I agree that there are many ways to be of service, and doing research would of course help people, but the results also aren't as immediate. It would also be good to fall back on medicine if there weren't enough grants and stuff like that. Basically, I think I will try to get MD and PhD degrees if it seems reasonably possible, and just the PhD if not. Robin Cook, who is an author if you don't know, said that the way they do the intern year isn't really necessary. So maybe it could be slightly accommodated somehow. It just doesn't seem right that I can't become a doctor just because of the things between medical school and practicing medicine chronologically. I mean, let's say I magically got my residencies and fellowships after med school, and for the sake of argument I could do what is required of a neuroendocrinologist physician. If I can be a doctor and complete medical school, why do there have to be these arbitrary hurdles of things that won't resemble how being a doctor in my situation really is? I feel like there has to be some way of accommodating it.
What exactly do people learn in residencies and fellowships? Is it about the subject, like let's say endocrinology itself, or specifically how to do medicine and treat the patients? Is there any of this you can learn from a textbook or other sources, and can you be board certified in something without doing the residencies and fellowships?

 

[noroxytocin]

One more quick question, I think anyway. If I got a PhD in something, could it exclusively relate to humans, or would it have to relate to all animals? I've heard of neuroscience and neurobiology, so I was wondering what knowledge and experience a PhD in neuroendocrinology would give you, but like I said mostly whether it would relate to humans or focus on different types of animals.

 

[Goro]

Mice, tissue culture cells, frog eggs, humans, whatever. Go to PubMed and do a search under "Neuroendoccrinology" AND "review"

One more quick question, I think anyway. If I got a PhD in something, could it exclusively relate to humans, or would it have to relate to all animals? I've heard of neuroscience and neurobiology, so I was wondering what knowledge and experience a PhD in neuroendocrinology would give you, but like I said mostly whether it would relate to humans or focus on different types of animals.

I trust my clinical colleagues will answer this more eloquently than I can, and correct my misconceptions, but residency is where you learn the actual practice of Medicine. The doing of Medicine. This involves a lot interacting with patients and you can't book learn this. No book can tell you how to draw blood, or do a prostate exam.

And I understand it's no residency: no license to practice medicine, either. The best you'll be able to do is teach, or then go and get a PhD, but it will be a lot easier to simply get a PhD and forgot medical school.

What exactly do people learn in residencies and fellowships? Is it about the subject, like let's say endocrinology itself, or specifically how to do medicine and treat the patients? Is there any of this you can learn from a textbook or other sources, and can you be board certified in something without doing the residencies and fellowships?

 

[noroxytocin]

Good point. If I could pretty much do the same thing with just a PhD, without a license to practice medicine anyway, I might as well not waste time on medical school. Just wondering though, when do endocrinologists learn about endocrinology, at least more than what other doctors know about it? Is that during the fellowship? Also, is it possible when getting a PhD to specialize in humans, even if you do learn all about other animals and cells?Thanks for the reply. I also want to possibly make a new thread asking which medical models would be useful for me, for example since some represent things by color, and like the DNA model doesn't help with epigenetics. I just don't want to post it in the wrong place or do anything else that is frowned upon, and since you guys have used the forum longer than I have, I figured you'd have a better idea of it than I would.

 

[kraskadva]

Good point. If I could pretty much do the same thing with just a PhD, without a license to practice medicine anyway, I might as well not waste time on medical school.

It's a thought...

Just wondering though, when do endocrinologists learn about endocrinology, at least more than what other doctors know about it? Is that during the fellowship?

Yes, generally during residency and fellowship.

Also, is it possible when getting a PhD to specialize in humans, even if you do learn all about other animals and cells? Thanks for the reply.

Sorta... You have to learn about all the others (for completeness sake at least), but many cell biology PhD programs, for instance, will be more focused on mammalian/human cells, especially if the program is through a medical school.

I also want to possibly make a new thread asking which medical models would be useful for me, for example since some represent things by color, and like the DNA model doesn't help with epigenetics. I just don't want to post it in the wrong place or do anything else that is frowned upon, and since you guys have used the forum longer than I have, I figured you'd have a better idea of it than I would.

Not quite sure what you mean by 'medical models'...There are ten thousand things that could fall under that heading. And pretty much everything diagrammatic uses color to distinguish between the different parts

Also... it may not seem like it now, but your interests may change as you get more experience and encounter more topics/ideas in the course of your education. I don't mean this in any sort of condescending way, but you come across as very young and you've already said you're a sophomore in college. Perhaps you would be better served by broadening your horizons a bit more, rather than focusing on a super-specialized field that very few people manage to enter... Not to say a PhD in a biomedical field or even potentially an MD is out of the question, but there are a lot of different options out there. I worry a bit that if you don't take a look around now, the day may come when you miss a step to enter this field you seem so set on and then have no idea what to do with yourself. A solid Plan B is never a bad thing....

 

[Law2Doc]

Thanks. It's good to know that it could perhaps be possible, although it's of course good to know why it couldn't happen as well. I agree that there are many ways to be of service, and doing research would of course help people, but the results also aren't as immediate. It would also be good to fall back on medicine if there weren't enough grants and stuff like that. Basically, I think I will try to get MD and PhD degrees if it seems reasonably possible, and just the PhD if not. Robin Cook, who is an author if you don't know, said that the way they do the intern year isn't really necessary. So maybe it could be slightly accommodated somehow. It just doesn't seem right that I can't become a doctor just because of the things between medical school and practicing medicine chronologically. I mean, let's say I magically got my residencies and fellowships after med school, and for the sake of argument I could do what is required of a neuroendocrinologist physician. If I can be a doctor and complete medical school, why do there have to be these arbitrary hurdles of things that won't resemble how being a doctor in my situation really is? I feel like there has to be some way of accommodating it.
What exactly do people learn in residencies and fellowships? Is it about the subject, like let's say endocrinology itself, or specifically how to do medicine and treat the patients? Is there any of this you can learn from a textbook or other sources, and can you be board certified in something without doing the residencies and fellowships?

First, Robin Cook is a writer who although entertaining is speaking for a pretty negligible percentage of the medical educators out there, if any. I would say to be an author like him, internship isn't necessary but to be a competent Practicing doctor it's pretty significant. Most would argue that residency (including internship) is where you actually learn to be a Doctor, which as I mentioned about is about 70% stuff you learn hands on rather than from books. It's only when you are alone in the middle of the night running around and trying to keep your patients alive that you actually learn the decisionmking skills and medical skilset to be a competent doctor. An MD without this is pretty useless. This isn't the arbitrary hurdle. Med school is probably a much more arbitrary hurdle, because training on the wards is pretty much the most important to working on the wards. You are looking at it backwards, and trying to make an argument that suits your purposes by ignoring reality. You have seized on the notion of an author who is saying what you want to hear even though it's pretty devoid of fact. Med school just giveS you foundation and a useless Paper degree. You aren't a physician at that point, just a poser. It's the transformation that happens the next 3-5 years in residency that really matters. sorry but you (and apparently Robin Cook) are way off base. You keep coming back to the "can't I learn medicine from a textbook" and miss the big picture. Thats only 20-30% of how you learn medicine. The rest is hands on. The messier the better. So no, you aren't ever going to be a Doctor from textbook learning. Medicine is an apprenticeship form of training. And one where the books are often of much much lesser importance. Stop with the What ifs and fiction writer BS. Nobody is going to let you bypass the training and just call you a doctor, any more than the state lottery will bypass the formality of my buying a lottery ticket and just award me money..

Please. Look at the reality of the training and see if you think it's a Hurdle that could be surmounted with reasonable accommodations.I'm betting not -- I know for certain that the path I took wasn't doable without vision. but a little digging to see if anyone has achieved what you are seeking would be better use of your time than pontificating about the value or wastefulness of a component of medical training you clearly haven't done an iota of research on. Do your homework. There are lots of books and blogs written by folks in residency about their lives and hurdles. Read some to see what you might be getting into, rather than waste time with the pontifications of a Robin Cook who is apparently blowing smoke up your ...

Also not sure why this is even on the nontrad board other then your misleading thread title -- we already established that you are not discussing issues generally faced by nontrads.

 

[noroxytocin]

I was wondering about specific models, so on the possible thread I would have a link to a model for example, and ask if it would be useful or not useful, like if a brain model only differentiated things by color, or if some of the regions and arteries could be distinguished by feel. Also just to clarify, I meant three -dimensional ones. But yeah, I will certainly consider and look into different options. That is a good idea.
Knowing the residency-type things are the more important parts of becoming a doctor changes my view, and not knowing previously is why, as you said, I was looking at it backwards. I'm not ignoring reality, I'm trying to figure out whether it is possible for me to become a doctor. I find your last post pretty offensive Law2Doc, although learning that the residency is the actual important part was useful. I have researched it, but I thought it could be accommodated, especially since people have said that five blind people have become doctors in the past. Anyway, I was asking you because you've been through it, and are an actual person who can answer my questions, rather than the internet that has answers that may or may not apply to me, like how you said the article about the Wisconsin guy was probably more of a public relations move than anything. I also asked here so that if I do meet any blind people who have managed to become doctors, I would have a better idea of what to ask them.
The reason I am asking questions on this thread rather than on another one is because someone got mad at me for making a thread before, so I figured I might as well ask people who are already answering my questions. Besides, if I did manage to get into medical school I would be about as nontraditional a student as possible, albeit not in the traditional sense of the term.

 

[kraskadva]

I don't know how much money you have to blow... 3D anatomical models are pricy and the more realistic and detailed they are, the higher the price (hundreds of dollars per). And none of them have every detail.
If you're enrolled at a university though, go ask around in the biology department - especially the anatomy/human bio professors. Schools buy these as teaching models and you should be able to get access to some that way.

 

[noroxytocin]

Thanks. I did see some models at one college. I was mostly thinking about if I couldn't find models at schools that demonstrated how certain processes worked, or if they didn't have enough detail for my purposes. You're definitely right that they won't have every detail of course, but for example, I saw a model of a brain that just showed the two hemispheres. I work at a restaurant part time and I also don't really have anything else I could spend it on. But mostly I just want to understand certain things that books can't explain very well, like where all the regions of the brain are in relation to each other.

 

[kraskadva]

Professor to explain + school model = more effective and accessible than hunting up models that are a) expensive and b) not designed for what you want

 

[Law2Doc]

I was wondering about specific models, so on the possible thread I would have a link to a model for example, and ask if it would be useful or not useful, like if a brain model only differentiated things by color, or if some of the regions and arteries could be distinguished by feel. Also just to clarify, I meant three -dimensional ones. But yeah, I will certainly consider and look into different options. That is a good idea.
Knowing the residency-type things are the more important parts of becoming a doctor changes my view, and not knowing previously is why, as you said, I was looking at it backwards. I'm not ignoring reality, I'm trying to figure out whether it is possible for me to become a doctor. I find your last post pretty offensive Law2Doc, although learning that the residency is the actual important part was useful. I have researched it, but I thought it could be accommodated, especially since people have said that five blind people have become doctors in the past. Anyway, I was asking you because you've been through it, and are an actual person who can answer my questions, rather than the internet that has answers that may or may not apply to me, like how you said the article about the Wisconsin guy was probably more of a public relations move than anything. I also asked here so that if I do meet any blind people who have managed to become doctors, I would have a better idea of what to ask them.
The reason I am asking questions on this thread rather than on another one is because someone got mad at me for making a thread before, so I figured I might as well ask people who are already answering my questions. Besides, if I did manage to get into medical school I would be about as nontraditional a student as possible, albeit not in the traditional sense of the term.

Sorry if my post came off as offensive but frankly when you ask someone many years into training if all that is really necessary, and whether one could bypass a half decade of training by just reading a textbook rather than waste their time with the hands on stuff -- that's what's actually kind of insulting here. Do you really think everyone on here who is working 80 hours a week for years, giving up weekends and holidays and family events, is doing it just for the heck of it, that its just a by-passable formality, and that they could be just as good a doctor reading a book or two on neuroendocrinology or whatever? Sorry but this journey is precisely what makes you a good doctor. It's the book learning that's the helpful aside. Medicine is an apprenticeship. book learning is helpful foundation although you'll be looking things up as you go, and your real learning mostly happens when you put the books down.
I don't fault you for not knowing, most of the public doesn't. But I think when people above explain that you are coming at it all wrong the right approach maybe isn't to latch onto the questionable musings of a medical fiction author, and question everyone else on the threads "wasteful" approach to their training.

The road to become a doctor is well established and vetted. Either you are capable of it (with reasonable accommodations) or you aren't. But don't try to suggest we are all wasting our time and being fools and there should obviously be a way to skip over the hard parts and bypass this road altogether.

 

[noroxytocin]

I can see how that would be extremely offensive, although I think you should try to, as I think of it, attack the thesis and not the person. If someone is misinformed like I was, you can wind up saying something extremely rude to the person you're attacking and realize later that they meant something else or just didn't realize something. But still, I should have been asking, not suggesting that I could learn everything through a textbook. Because what I really wish I could do is not just learn that way, but how everyone else learns, or at least as close as possible. But I'm just too stupid to see the different needles without stabbing myself, or the pictures of different pathologies. Trust me, I respect you so, so much for what you do and did. People, including myself, have no idea at all what people sacrifice and go through to achieve that, and I don't think it's right. When I was little, I didn't even think about what people had to go through to get the knowledge and experience to save my life, or the dedication it took. People should appreciate doctors a thousand times more than they do, or at least I do now that I have somewhat of an idea of what even just one of the people had to do to cut open my skull and meninges, take out the brain tumor, sew up the meninges, and bolt up the skull to being back to normal. What I'm saying is that from a patient's perspective, especially a little kid, it seems really simple. But if I knew what I knew now and could talk back then, I would thank my neurosurgeon so much, and I wish he could know how grateful I am now. Anyway, as much as I respect that, which is a lot, you have know idea how it feels to not even be able to even try to become a doctor. I never cared that I wouldn't be able to drive, but this ****ing hurts! It wouldn't matter if I was the smartest person in the entire world, I still wouldn't even get to attempt to fulfill my dream. So yeah. I'm not trying to suggest in any way at all that you wasted any of that time, but at least you are able to do it.

 

[Rocketdog]

To the OP......Non-Trad means this:

1. I don't require a co-signer for my med school loans.
2. I DO require help if I fall down unexpectedly
3. I don't ever want to get married again
4. Some of my past experiences date back to the 1980s
5. I call the pharmacy for prescription refills monthly
6. Snack, crackle, pop doesn't refer to breakfast cereal

7. If you don't identify with 1-6 it means you're a TRADITIONAL student!

Cheers everyone.

 

[noroxytocin]

Nice.

 

[EMDO2018]

To the OP......Non-Trad means this:

1. I don't require a co-signer for my med school loans.
2. I DO require help if I fall down unexpectedly
3. I don't ever want to get married again
4. Some of my past experiences date back to the 1980s
5. I call the pharmacy for prescription refills monthly
6. Snack, crackle, pop doesn't refer to breakfast cereal

7. If you don't identify with 1-6 it means you're a TRADITIONAL student!

Cheers everyone.

Wait, I'm 26 and an M1 I can identify with 1, 3( ive never been married probably never will), 4 ( I was born in 88), 5, 6(knees pop), Am I considered non trad?