What exactly is "clinical" volunteering/work?

[A People Person Doctor]

Hoping a couple of people can chime in and help clarify it for me...

I currently work full-time at a community non-profit which serves the homeless population and will begin post-bac in January to complete my prerequisites . My particular department is a drop-in center which works with the homeless. In my job, I meet with the clients for the first time and refer them to the appropriate departments and help them with various case management tasks. Although we have no doctors at my job, we do have social workers who assess and we're regularly are in contact with clinics, physicians, detox centers, etc. for our clients.

So long story short...is this "clinical" work?

Thanks guys!

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[DrMidlife]

great EC. super relevant. brag it up. housing, jobs & security are powerful health care predictors.

but for a med school app it's not clinical experience.

 

[Rogert]

great EC. super relevant. brag it up. housing, jobs & security are powerful health care predictors.

but for a med school app it's not clinical experience.

If nursing homes count as clinical, I don't see why this wouldn't.

OP what sort of job is this? I've never heard of a place like this and it's something I'd be interested in.

 

[DrMidlife]

the EC described is social work. very important. not medical care.

by contrast, a nursing home has a medical director and is staffed by people with medical training who are actively performing patient care. (regardless i would hope premeds do additional clinical ECs than this, or they have no idea what they're getting into with med school)

if med school is the goal, you need experience in an environment where medical treatment, medical decisions, medical procedures, and direct patient care are the _main_ point of the service. while housing, jobs, safety, counseling etc are critical to _health_ they are not the job of the doctor, which is the job you presumably want.

again: social work _is_ important.

 

[A People Person Doctor]

If nursing homes count as clinical, I don't see why this wouldn't.

OP what sort of job is this? I've never heard of a place like this and it's something I'd be interested in.

It's a nonprofit which serves the homeless in the city; I work there as a counselor.

 

[A People Person Doctor]

the EC described is social work. very important. not medical care.

by contrast, a nursing home has a medical director and is staffed by people with medical training who are actively performing patient care. (regardless i would hope premeds do additional clinical ECs than this, or they have no idea what they're getting into with med school)

if med school is the goal, you need experience in an environment where medical treatment, medical decisions, medical procedures, and direct patient care are the _main_ point of the service. while housing, jobs, safety, counseling etc are critical to _health_ they are not the job of the doctor, which is the job you presumably want.

again: social work _is_ important.

Thanks for responding! So to clarify, clinical work has to supervised by medical doctor and involve medical procedures? I've looked into volunteering at hospitals in the emergency department and other departments at night but the positions involve running errands, stocking, giving directions, talking with patients. I'm just a bit confused because it seems that while what I would be doing is very helpful, my job wouldn't be contributing to their medical care.

 

[runnergal]

Thanks for responding! So to clarify, clinical work has to supervised by medical doctor and involve medical procedures? I've looked into volunteering at hospitals in the emergency department and other departments at night but the positions involve running errands, stocking, giving directions, talking with patients. I'm just a bit confused because it seems that while what I would be doing is very helpful, my job wouldn't be contributing to their medical care.

What major city do you live in/near?

For example, Penn has a clinical research in emergency department class that you can take and work in the ED while doing research at the same time.
So, look around at the major institutions, hospitals, etc in your city for clinical research, medical scribe, shawdowing .. etc etc ....
If there are doctors at your job now, approach them and ask them if you could shadow them at their other job (bc they have to have another job somewhere else other than the nonprofit....) ... ask if they can connect you to someone who would be willing to mentor, etc ..... one step at a time.... go on medical schools or hospital websites and see if there are postings for student jobs ....

 

[DrMidlife]

guys. you don't get to do what doctors _do_ as a premed. if you're in a place where there are people getting medical care (patients) from medical professionals (MD DO RN NP PA etc) then you're in the right place.

why? (you should care why.)

because it takes upward of $250k and 7-14 years of training to become a doctor. IT IS IN YOUR BEST INTEREST TO ACTIVELY, CURIOUSLY, QUESTIONINGLY PARTICIPATE IN THE CARE OF PATIENTS before you can have any idea what you're getting into, and before any qualified adult will believe you have any idea what you're getting into.

 

[Rogert]

guys. you don't get to do what doctors _do_ as a premed. if you're in a place where there are people getting medical care (patients) from medical professionals (MD DO RN NP PA etc) then you're in the right place.

why? (you should care why.)

because it takes upward of $250k and 7-14 years of training to become a doctor. IT IS IN YOUR BEST INTEREST TO ACTIVELY, CURIOUSLY, QUESTIONINGLY PARTICIPATE IN THE CARE OF PATIENTS before you can have any idea what you're getting into, and before any qualified adult will believe you have any idea what you're getting into.

isn't this nontrad?!?! these are total pre-allo questions.

Being non-trad doesn't mean an individual knows anything about the application process. In fact, it probably indicates the opposite because the individual has spent a significant amount of time doing things that were not related to medicine. No need to put people down.

 

[DrMidlife]

deleted comment

 

[runnergal]

Being non-trad doesn't mean an individual knows anything about the application process. In fact, it probably indicates the opposite because the individual has spent a significant amount of time doing things that were not related to medicine. No need to put people down.

She is giving you advice as someone who has been-there-done-that, and you pretty much shot it down and didn't trust what she was saying or really try to verify it.

 

[Rogert]

She is giving you advice as someone who has been-there-done-that, and you pretty much shot it down and didn't trust what she was saying or really try to verify it.

I didn't even think they were talking to me. I thought they were talking OP. Also, they're not an adcom. Their opinion on the matter has about as much weight as mine.

 

[runnergal]

I didn't even think they were talking to me. I thought they were talking OP. Also, they're not an adcom. Their opinion on the matter has about as much weight as mine.

I understand that.

But who will lose, if you take up the counselor experience and later find that it doesn't qualify? You will lose.
Atleast her method, you will get the "clinical experience" required.
Again, take it for what it's worth .... in reading every and anything in SDN, you should always "Trust, but verify". Take what someone says and try to confirm that elsewhere.

 

[Rogert]

I understand that.

But who will lose, if you take up the counselor experience and later find that it doesn't qualify? You will lose.
Atleast her method, you will get the "clinical experience" required.
Again, take it for what it's worth .... in reading every and anything in SDN, you should always "Trust, but verify". Take what someone says and try to confirm that elsewhere.

Which is why I think OP should get a second opinion from one of the more trusted sources on here.

 

[Apollo1]

I didn't even think they were talking to me. I thought they were talking OP. Also, they're not an adcom. Their opinion on the matter has about as much weight as mine.

Which is why I think OP should get a second opinion from one of the more trusted sources on here.

DrMidlife has been around for a quite a while, was a nontrad who did what all of us are trying to do, and got into med school. I'd say her perspective carries more weight than what you opine.

 

[Rogert]

DrMidlife has been around for a quite a while, was a nontrad who did what all of us are trying to do, and got into med school. I'd say her perspective carries more weight than what you opine.

That's fine. I still see no reason OP shouldn't get a second opinion from someone actually involved in the process.

 

[DrMidlife]

" actually involved in the process"

lol. you kids have fun out there!

 

[runnergal]

That's fine. I still see no reason OP shouldn't get a second opinion from someone actually involved in the process.

I don't want to nag on this but we are talking Extracurriculars (EC) for ***medical*** school here..... the advice she gave on ECs is pretty standard. You pretty much need to be working IN and AROUND patients, doctors, clinical hospital/outpatient medical staff..... if you want to ***first*** get into a school and have them trust you to spend some part of the 7-11 years at their institution training, and then spend $250K ..... I digress though. Get multiple opinions.

 

[NoTownPreMed]

I believe social workers do get a good insight about the healthcare system, but will not be heavily weighed upon clinical-wise as compared to those who work and provide direct patient care.

 

[jl lin]

Well, OP, you can put it on there--I mean I don't think anyone is telling you you shouldn't. You should, however, also add to your direct, clinical exposures--ED tech work, ICU tech work, hospice volunteering--anything that can get you near physicians, nurses, and the sight, sound, and smell of very sick patients and their stressed out families. A busy ED with varying levels of patient acuities is ideal. Also shadow various physicians, such as those in primary care, and the like.

 

[runnergal]

Well, OP, you can put it on there--I mean I don't think anyone is telling you you shouldn't. You should, however, also add to your direct, clinical exposures--ED tech work, ICU tech work, hospice volunteering--anything that can get you near physicians, nurses, and the sight, sound, and smell of very sick patients and their stressed out families. A busy ED with varying levels of patient acuities is ideal. Also shadow various physicians, such as those in primary care, and the like.

First of all: those quotes in your signature are EVERYTHING!

Second, yeah as unsick and as sick as you can get. Wellness visits, "Here for med refill", to I&D of labial abscesses, to chest tubes and intubations, to time of death". See and experience all of it.

 

[Rogert]

First of all: those quotes in your signature are EVERYTHING!

Second, yeah as unsick and as sick as you can get. Wellness visits, "Here for med refill", to I&D of labial abscesses, to chest tubes and intubations, to time of death". See and experience all of it.

Are you talking about shadowing or clinical experience? I get kicked out of the room as the nurse walks in to see the patient at the ER I volunteer at.

 

[Rogert]

First of all: those quotes in your signature are EVERYTHING!

Second, yeah as unsick and as sick as you can get. Wellness visits, "Here for med refill", to I&D of labial abscesses, to chest tubes and intubations, to time of death". See and experience all of it.

Also, locationally related, everyone should should read the Swamps of Dagobah nurse story (potentially NSFW).

 

[runnergal]

Are you talking about shadowing or clinical experience? I get kicked out of the room as the nurse walks in to see the patient at the ER I volunteer at.

Is it one nurse in particular or is it almost all of the nurses refusing you to be in the room? Are you able to find out what the regulation is for volunteers at the hospital you work? If the volunteer department states you are able to be in the room, I would just pull the specific nurse aside on her lunch break or on downtime, and ask her if it is okay given you need the experience.
If it is a bunch of nurses, yet the volunteer dept states that you are allowed to be in the room, the volunteer department needs to let the nursing supervisors know the deal. Could be a miscommunication.

Even when I was a senior project manager for a medical scribe company and had to wheel around the huge computer-on-wheel workstations, the nurses would try to tell me to stand outside of the door where I can't see or hear anything. And I was a manager and scribing for my attending and training scribes at the same time, and they would try to tell me to leave the room when I have a job to do and am getting paid for it. Don't be discouraged if someone is doing the same to you when you're a volunteer - it happens to the best of us. I just try to clarify the issue as soon as possible in order to avoid awkwardness, elephants-in-room, etc.....

 

[Rogert]

Is it one nurse in particular or is it almost all of the nurses refusing you to be in the room? Are you able to find out what the regulation is for volunteers at the hospital you work? If the volunteer department states you are able to be in the room, I would just pull the specific nurse aside on her lunch break or on downtime, and ask her if it is okay given you need the experience.
If it is a bunch of nurses, yet the volunteer dept states that you are allowed to be in the room, the volunteer department needs to let the nursing supervisors know the deal. Could be a miscommunication.

Even when I was a senior project manager for a medical scribe company and had to wheel around the huge computer-on-wheel workstations, the nurses would try to tell me to stand outside of the door where I can't see or hear anything. And I was a manager and scribing for my attending and training scribes at the same time, and they would try to tell me to leave the room when I have a job to do and am getting paid for it. Don't be discouraged if someone is doing the same to you when you're a volunteer - it happens to the best of us. I just try to clarify the issue as soon as possible in order to avoid awkwardness, elephants-in-room, etc.....

It's hospital policy.

 

[runnergal]

Also, locationally related, everyone should should read the Swamps of Dagobah nurse story (potentially NSFW).

I think the most interesting thing I learned in all of my clinical experience wasn't even those procedures, etc, but it was really how doctors communicate with one another, watching how you're colleagues will b**** you out when you're trying to get your patient admitted, where medical mistakes are most critical to happen, learning when to speak up on behalf of a patient, learning how to effectively communicate with patients especially those who are vulnerable and in the underserved populations..... So so so valuable. Can't stress that one enough.

learning this prior to med school will save you from making rookie mistakes out in MS clinicals, residency, etc. Bc you have seen it and witnessed it all first-hand without having a stake in the "liability" game. You got to observe, listen, and learn ..... Might save you a few court appearances once you're out and practicing on your own.....

 

[runnergal]

It's hospital policy.

yeah..... I would simultaneously try to find another sort of clinical experience.... Don't quit this one until you find a better one.

 

[Rogert]

yeah..... I would simultaneously try to find another sort of clinical experience.... Don't quit this one until you find a better one.

Literally the only one available to me. I live in farm country and work a 9-5 so this little communtiy hospital is all I got.

 

[Goro]

I agree with DrMidlife's very wise words that this is social work and avery important non-clinical EC; one that will show off your humanism.

Clinical volunteering is dealing with sick and injured people and their families in a clinical setting, not out on the street or under a highway overpass.

Not all volunteering needs to be in a hospital. Think hospice, Planned Parenthood, nursing homes, rehab facilities, crisis hotlines, camps for sick children, or clinics. Check out your local houses of worship for volunteer opportunities.


The whole idea is to show us that you know what you're getting into, and that you really want to be around these people for the next 30-40 years. Some of them aren't very nice.


I currently work full-time at a non-profit which serves veterans and will begin an evening post-bac in January to complete my prerequisites . My particular department is a frontline drop-in center which works with all veterans (including those who are homeless, current substance abusers, suffering from mental illness, physically disabled, etc.). In my job, I meet with the veterans for the first time, "triage" them, refer them to the appropriate departments (in-house, VA, city resources, etc.), and help them with various case management tasks. Although we have no doctors at my job, we do have licensed social workers who assess mental health illness/substance abuse and we're regularly are in contact with clinics, physicians, detox centers, etc. for our clients.

So long story short...is this "clinical" work?

Thanks guys![/QUOTE]

 

[runnergal]

Literally the only one available to me. I live in farm country and work a 9-5 so this little communtiy hospital is all I got.

Awww man!
It's sad because of the 8 hospitals I worked across the country, rural and "farm country" hospitals were where I learned the MOST about medicine and healthcare in America. Keep looking - don't stop until you find something. I've always prevailed that way. Legit checking hospital jobs postings every day was how I made my way up the EC ladder. And if worst comes, I just stand outside the front door of the hospital and start handing out my resume, OR mailing them to doctor's offices. LOL (I've never done that yet, but was always gonna be an option if I couldn't find anything)

"No" is never no, it just means "convince me"

 

[Rogert]

Awww man!
It's sad because of the 8 hospitals I worked across the country, rural and "farm country" hospitals were where I learned the MOST about medicine and healthcare in America. Keep looking - don't stop until you find something. I've always prevailed that way. Legit checking hospital jobs postings every day was how I made my way up the EC ladder. And if worst comes, I just stand outside the front door of the hospital and start handing out my resume, OR mailing them to doctor's offices. LOL (I've never done that yet, but was always gonna be an option if I couldn't find anything)

"No" is never no, it just means "convince me"

lol. I already work for the hospital actually but I work on the business side. I've been trying to get a clinical job at this place since I moved here three years ago.

 

[Dr. Jan Itor]

lol. I already work for the hospital actually but I work on the business side. I've been trying to get a clinical job at this place since I moved here three years ago.

Are there any clinics affiliated with the hospital? My local hospital limits volunteers to stocking shelves and the gift shop, but the chemo clinic next door allows volunteers to be much more within "smelling distance" of the patients.

 

[Rogert]

Are there any clinics affiliated with the hospital? My local hospital limits volunteers to stocking shelves and the gift shop, but the chemo clinic next door allows volunteers to be much more within "smelling distance" of the patients.

There are and none of them have volunteers (it's all coordinated through a single volunteer dept.). I'm basically an escort. I get plenty of "smelling the patients," it's just drastically different than what runnergal was talking about.

I'd have a lot more opportunity if I could quit my job somehow, since it basically limits me to night and weekends, but that's not exactly an option.

 

[DrNoobSaibot]

Are there any clinics affiliated with the hospital? My local hospital limits volunteers to stocking shelves and the gift shop, but the chemo clinic next door allows volunteers to be much more within "smelling distance" of the patients.

The nurses at the ER I volunteer at allow me to help them record and interview patient vital sign and hold down patients' arm or converse with the patients while they draw blood (mainly children, seniors and homeless patients).

 

[jl lin]

Are you talking about shadowing or clinical experience? I get kicked out of the room as the nurse walks in to see the patient at the ER I volunteer at.

Well, it depends. Not suggesting going against hospital policy; but if the nurse/doctor, etc ask if you may stay, and the patient says "yes," that should be OK---depending on the specifics. You have to genuinely network w/ the nurses and doctors--to the point of getting them to see you are serious and they trust you; but we always have to respect the patient's/families' wishes. I mean there are times where I as a nurse and/or along with the doctor need/s another pair of hands--so if you have shown yourself to be sincere, serious, respectful, and caring, yea. You may get to see more.

 

[jl lin]

Awww man!
It's sad because of the 8 hospitals I worked across the country, rural and "farm country" hospitals were where I learned the MOST about medicine and healthcare in America. Keep looking - don't stop until you find something. I've always prevailed that way. Legit checking hospital jobs postings every day was how I made my way up the EC ladder. And if worst comes, I just stand outside the front door of the hospital and start handing out my resume, OR mailing them to doctor's offices. LOL (I've never done that yet, but was always gonna be an option if I couldn't find anything)

"No" is never no, it just means "convince me"

Seriously, there is a lot of truth in that.

 

[jl lin]

First of all: those quotes in your signature are EVERYTHING!

Second, yeah as unsick and as sick as you can get. Wellness visits, "Here for med refill", to I&D of labial abscesses, to chest tubes and intubations, to time of death". See and experience all of it.

Thanks. I didn't make them, but I can use them.

 

[NoTownPreMed]

Well, it depends. Not suggesting going against hospital policy; but if the nurse/doctor, etc ask if you may stay, and the patient says "yes," that should be OK---depending on the specifics. You have to genuinely network w/ the nurses and doctors--to the point of getting them to see you are serious and they trust you; but we always have to respect the patient's/families' wishes. I mean there are times where I as a nurse and/or along with the doctor need/s another pair of hands--so if you have shown yourself to be sincere, serious, respectful, and caring, yea. You may get to see more.

Correct, every now and then I'd have volunteers ask to shadow for experience. When tasked to perform simple procedures such as inserting a rectal tube, NG tube, foley and etc., I'd always ask the patients/family if they will allow volunteers to chime in and assist me. I believe it's the best way one can gain experience and get the insight as to how the healthcare system works. Again every person is different, it depends who you are following.

 

[A People Person Doctor]

What major city do you live in/near?

For example, Penn has a clinical research in emergency department class that you can take and work in the ED while doing research at the same time.
So, look around at the major institutions, hospitals, etc in your city for clinical research, medical scribe, shawdowing .. etc etc ....
If there are doctors at your job now, approach them and ask them if you could shadow them at their other job (bc they have to have another job somewhere else other than the nonprofit....) ... ask if they can connect you to someone who would be willing to mentor, etc ..... one step at a time.... go on medical schools or hospital websites and see if there are postings for student jobs ....

Currently in the Bay Area

 

[A People Person Doctor]

Thanks everyone for the input and advice! All this stuff is new to me so I appreciate it! I'll start making plans accordingly

 

[CajunMedic]

OP, does your organization have any free clinics to refer Veterans to? If so, that might be a good place to start. If not, you might be able to use some of your organizations contacts as a starting point.

 

[A People Person Doctor]

OP, does your organization have any free clinics to refer Veterans to? If so, that might be a good place to start. If not, you might be able to use some of your organizations contacts as a starting point.

Yes, I've contacted several from the clinics through email and phone but have yet to get a reply back from anyone. I'm guessing I'll have to stay persistent with them or find an alternate way of getting in touch with them.

 

[JoeCaputo]

guys. you don't get to do what doctors _do_ as a premed. if you're in a place where there are people getting medical care (patients) from medical professionals (MD DO RN NP PA etc) then you're in the right place.

why? (you should care why.)

because it takes upward of $250k and 7-14 years of training to become a doctor. IT IS IN YOUR BEST INTEREST TO ACTIVELY, CURIOUSLY, QUESTIONINGLY PARTICIPATE IN THE CARE OF PATIENTS before you can have any idea what you're getting into, and before any qualified adult will believe you have any idea what you're getting into.

I am also a bit confused as to what counts. I volunteer at a community clinic, in the referral coordinators office, but the job is administrative. I help patients get care, but not directly.

Starting around September I might look for something more clinical to add to my schedule.

 

[MySpirit]

I think LizzyM mentioned this: "If you can smell patients, it is clinical experience."

 

[MySpirit]

The nurses at the ER I volunteer at allow me to help them record and interview patient vital sign and hold down patients' arm or converse with the patients while they draw blood (mainly children, seniors and homeless patients).

Definitely clinical experience here.

 

[wholeheartedly]

Instead of trying to classify everything, it might help to think in terms of why you need things and then use that to determine if you've got things covered. I'm not an adcom, but this is how I look at these issues.

Things you need to show a medical school outside of solid academics:
1.) You're an altruistic person who likes helping others
2.) You've seen the crappy parts of medicine in some direct capacity
3.) You've had exposure to physicians and have tried to gain a realistic view of what being a physician entails.
4.) You're well rounded, reasonably sane, and have other interests to help you socialize with others and have balance in your life outside of medicine.

How do you show a medical school those things (by number)?
1.) volunteering of some sort, non-clinical volunteering (coaching, tutoring, animal shelter, social work volunteering, mentoring, crisis line) AND/OR clinical volunteering (hospital or nursing home volunteering, etc).
2.) immersing yourself in some capacity in a healthcare setting. this could be as an employee, as a volunteer, or some other capacity that gets you up close and personal with patients and with parts of medicine that suck. If you haven't seen parts that suck, you probably haven't gotten enough of this. You don't need to provide direct care to patients yourself necessarily, though it certainly helps.
3.) shadowing and talking with physicians. ask them about the challenges of their roles, ask how they handle those challenges, ask what they find rewarding, watch all of what they do including the unglamorous stuff.
4.) hobbies, non medical activities like chess club or marathons or kickboxing or astronomy club, whatever floats your boat.

So you take what interests you, what you're passionate about, and what is available to you to meet those four requirements in some mix of above types of activities.

 

[Grace184]

I agree with DrMidlife's very wise words that this is social work and avery important non-clinical EC; one that will show off your humanism.

Clinical volunteering is dealing with sick and injured people and their families in a clinical setting, not out on the street or under a highway overpass.

Not all volunteering needs to be in a hospital. Think hospice, Planned Parenthood, nursing homes, rehab facilities, crisis hotlines, camps for sick children, or clinics. Check out your local houses of worship for volunteer opportunities.!

[/QUOTE]

So just clarifying- hospice IS clinical volunteering? I mean helping someone in the end of their life is as real as it gets....It's really taught me the right balance of the "Teflon face" as well as empathy.

 

[DrMidlife]

hospice is legit. but consider @wholeheartedly's post with more enthusiasm. consider the package you're putting together.

balance your hospice experience with other experiences. such as clinical scenarios where people aren't actively dying, and clinical scenarios that expose you to "care" of the uninsured and marginalized.

another way to think about clinical ECs: have you been exposed enough to DOUBT your ambition of practicing medicine? 3rd year is a tough time for that to happen.

 

[Grace184]

Thank you @DrMidlife . Yes, I have many clinical experiences where my patients aren't dying. This was something I chose to do as a challenge for myself personally. I have definitely worked with the uninsured and marginalized- I was a clinical pharmacist at a state run psych hospital where some patients had been there for 40 years, many frequent flyers, and some that were sent to us by the court bc they were unfit for prison. But those were my early years. I digress- I know I definitely want to make the change to and practice medicine for the rest of my life. I don't doubt or question my desire.