What I wish I knew before starting medical school (non-trad focused)

[katiemaude]

So knowing more about mspeedwagon's situation, I can confirm that the exams he is referring to are particularly heinous (particularly two of the three), and that they have the same problem every year with students failing. It is a unique problem to first year because the core sciences are taught by a department outside of the COM that also instructs other health professions. To compensate, the COM curves these two classes so no more than 10 percent fail. They also provide free tutoring to any student who gets below a 75 on an exam and free study tables and reviews twice per week. I have a list as long as my arm of second year students who aced these classes and are being well compensated by the COM to tutor. Clubs offer reviews as well. Suffice it to say, the vast majority of students end up with passing scores and doing well on boards. But like any school you need to be responsible for your own education and make sure you are learning the major concepts as well as the nitty gritty that professors stress on their exams. Second year courses have course directors employed by the COM and are organized differently (although they have their own problems with guest lecturers). I failed two of the three tests he failed and I ended up with two As and a high B in the same classes. Fortunately the other exams are written more fairly. To assume the administration is totally unaware or uncaring would be wrong. They have carefully calibrated the number of exams, the need for a curve, etc while trying to work within a university hierarchy. The material is evaluated every year with input from students. Trust me, if board scores started dropping they'd be breathing fire down the neck of the professors. That's one of the benefits of attending a school that's been around for decades. You might not like the way they do everything but you have a 99.9 percent chance of walking across the stage with a DO degree and a residency lined up if that's what you still want.

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[katiemaude]

This is bad... I mean really, wow kind of bad. And all these outside things you are told to do are mandatory? All 150 people need to write a group letter of dire concern.

I fear that I am starting to strongly dislike your school.

The things that are required at this particular school in the first semester: an afternoon at an art museum learning about art and how you can use your visual and observational skills with patients, spend 8 hours getting BLS certified, spend 8ish hours learning about tobacco cessation and a day teaching middle school students about the hazards of tobacco use, spend 5 afternoons shadowing a primary care physician and learning how to do an HPI, a two-hour lab and one hour lecture per week learning physical exam skills, and about 10 lecture hours on topics related to becoming a more humanistic physician. We also are required to volunteer for 80 hours over two years and to complete an HPI and physical exam in Spanish with a standardized patient before we can take boards. Minus the tobacco cessation, art museum and BLS certification, second semester is similar.

 

[jl lin]

In principle, I believe schools of higher education are to be engaging purveyors of sound, up-to-date, robust, and invigorating (whenever possible) information. Now, if said school is limited in professors that are able to produce this for most of their students, then at least give the students the time they need to learn this information on their own.

I learn in many ways, but I am also a self-learner. By now I certainly know that not everyone that obtains a high enough degree in something is necessarily a gifted teacher. Also, putting so much idiotic, irrelevant minutiae on important exams is just plain counterproductive, period. But not only do they appear to be forcing students to sit through less than suboptimal lectures and attend time-consuming events that are not necessarily immediately relevant, especially given the voluminous amount of information that is to be learned, they are giving them exams with senseless questions--so much so that so many have tanked--and they are not allowing students enough time by which they can learn the most germane material on their own. This is a grave inservice to the students, their educational community and its supporters, and IMHO healthcare.

Again, if your information is balanced, I thank you, mspeedwagon, for shedding some light here. No, there should absolutely not be any Med School for Dummies, but it's important to be reasonable.

 

[jl lin]

The things that are required at this particular school in the first semester: an afternoon at an art museum learning about art and how you can use your visual and observational skills with patients, spend 8 hours getting BLS certified, spend 8ish hours learning about tobacco cessation and a day teaching middle school students about the hazards of tobacco use, spend 5 afternoons shadowing a primary care physician and learning how to do an HPI, a two-hour lab and one hour lecture per week learning physical exam skills, and about 10 lecture hours on topics related to becoming a more humanistic physician. We also are required to volunteer for 80 hours over two years and to complete an HPI and physical exam in Spanish with a standardized patient before we can take boards. Minus the tobacco cessation, art museum and BLS certification, second semester is similar.

Art museum visits? I've done this in college, and on my own several times. BLS, obviously needed for any HC provider--I'm a RN. Tobacco cessation and a day teaching on it--no sweat. Shadowing time, fine--use some of the odious lecture time for that. I'm not against these things at all. Hell I am a nurse. I've had to learn them also. The Spanish part, I have to say, this is becoming huge, and I strongly encourage people to be able to speak and write Spanish. It's not just in certain parts of the country. It's everywhere.

I am strongly opposed, however, to substandard professors and capricious standards and rubrics and systems of evaluation for learning. Trust me, I have seen them at a few schools. My undergrad school and university, at least in my courses of study, really seemed to get it. Indeed what is also bad is poor curriculum, rubric, evaluation, and syllabus design. People should know going in what % of what is going to = what. People should know what it is that they are to know and have learned. Of course you can't fit all this in a MS course syllabus; but what you can do is set clear parameters of knowledge-base and stick the hell with them. Idiotic minutia may be something of interest to the professor, but if it doesn't fit firmly in the core parameters of knowledge, it should get very little point value on exams. It's not about the professors. It's about the students and the communities and people whom they will serve. There is more than enough time to learn a zillion extra things in one's own particular specialty for God's sake. And the learning never ends, and no one ever knows it all.

 

[trev5150]

Sorry, don't mean to derail the thread, but AmICrazy's suggestion is actually a very wise one. There is no limit on Roth conversions and it may be a very smart thing to do for a med student with no other earned income in a calendar year.

It's about the (comparatively) terrible yield and the crushing fees and penalties for withdrawals. Once your money is in a Roth, forget about it until you're 65.

 

[edgerock24]

The things that are required at this particular school in the first semester: an afternoon at an art museum learning about art and how you can use your visual and observational skills with patients, spend 8 hours getting BLS certified, spend 8ish hours learning about tobacco cessation and a day teaching middle school students about the hazards of tobacco use, spend 5 afternoons shadowing a primary care physician and learning how to do an HPI, a two-hour lab and one hour lecture per week learning physical exam skills, and about 10 lecture hours on topics related to becoming a more humanistic physician. We also are required to volunteer for 80 hours over two years and to complete an HPI and physical exam in Spanish with a standardized patient before we can take boards. Minus the tobacco cessation, art museum and BLS certification, second semester is similar.

Not to be too hard on your school.. but most of this sounds like a huge waste of time.

 

[mspeedwagon]

I was not going to mention many specifics as I didn't want to mention the school (though might be obvious given my posting history), but since it's in this thread let me say these things about the school. I think it's a great school, it has been around a while, board scores are generally good, folks are helpful and people seem to be learning (minus in one core subject). However, the first three teachers I encountered were very subpar compared to the quality of instruction at my undergrad.

My thread was in no way meant to be an opinion of this particular school. I do not want it to come across as I don't appreciate my spot in school (I know I am fortunate) though I realize we have gone down that path. I think for several reasons it may have not been right school for me (location, weekly testing, too many outside requirements for someone who has been out of school and knowing what I know now I would rather focus on doing well in core classes first and to do so I need more study time than I'm given). I easily get completely demoralized if I work day and night to study and fail something... and not only did I fail 1 or 2... but 3 exams in a row (as you imagine, I'm not used to failing everything). But, clearly not uncommon since the other person commenting in this thread also failed 2 out 3 and my own peer mentor claims to have failed 3 out 3 as well. I personally hate curves more than anything in the world. I'd rather have clear objectives set-up with this is what you need to know. If you are going to pass 90% of the class, do it because they earned passing grades on reasonable exams (basically what happened at my gfs school... she was shocked to hear I was failing b/c folks rarely failed exams at her school as per her as long as you knew the BRS material you were all set for the exam and would likely score in the mid-80s, which generally worked out to be the class average).

We had the 3 mentioned exams in the span of a week. The day before exam 1 I spent the whole afternoon at an art museum (it lasted from 12:45 p.m. to 5 p.m. or so). The day before exam 2, I had to shadow a physician. I was unfortunate to be assigned to one that is an hour away on a good day (i.e. no traffic). I left school at 12:30 p.m. to get to the office by 2 p.m. and got home around 7 p.m. (traffic was bad on the way back). I had no requirements the day before exam 3, but my car broke down and needed to be towed (however, even with that I had more study time and almost passed the exam. Amazing what happens when you are given time to study ).

This thread was supposed to be more about what I learned while in med school that I wish I knew before I started. Let's get back to that. I think a lot of trads and several non-trads will continue to be happy, excel and do well at this school .

 

[jl lin]

Again, thanks for posting. At this point I will simply say that this has been quite educational.

 

[jl lin]

Not to be too hard on your school.. but most of this sounds like a huge waste of time.

I will also ask why couldn't a number of these things be required to be completed before the school year begins in full swing?

 

[mspeedwagon]

This is EXACTLY how I would improve things. Move BLS, Tobacco cessation and the art museum all into the orientation week. Also start a week earlier and fit in a mid-semester break b/c students are burned out with test after test after test week in and week out. Also, have the physician shadowing set-up on Saturday if it's going to be over an hour away. Spending six and a half hours of your time on it on a Tuesday, especially right before a hard exam, is not ideal. But, alas, I'm not in charge of the schedule.

I will also ask why couldn't a number of these things be required to be completed before the school year begins in full swing?

 

[Gulliver Dark]

I think a med school light would have helped tremendously. Similarly, there are schools that let you take one class over the summer (normally anatomy) and then have a lighter load your first semester. Knowing what I do now, I would hunt down and apply to such schools.

That would be a pretty nice feature. I wonder how many schools do that. Research time.

As a premed who is late 20's, with a low six figure salary, quite a bit of money saved in an employer plan, and a sweet pension I'll throw away to go to med school, your post (and the post by whipple) are a bit disconcerting. I feel pretty confident about my decision, but when I'm broke living on ramen and studying 15 hours a day, I'm sure my sweet office, salary, and pension will be missed.

It's about the (comparatively) terrible yield and the crushing fees and penalties for withdrawals. Once your money is in a Roth, forget about it until you're 65.

How is the yield terrible? Comparative to what? You can own the same things in a Roth as you can anywhere else, and unlike any other account you won't be taxed when it comes out, so 10k in a Roth is 10k while 10k in a traditional account is more like 7k real dollars. Fees and penalties for withdrawals? You can always withdraw contributions, at any age, with no penalty - unlike pretty much any other account type. And the minimum withdrawal age is 59.5, not 65. You should spend some time on White Coat Investor's website and Bogleheads when you become close to becoming an attending. Or now, if you have a lot of money saved away.

I'm not saying a Roth is a good choice in every case, but in many cases (and if you can convert during negative income years like I hope to) it is a great choice. Conversion from a traditional account has no max, you just have to pay tax. If you are in a negative income bracket, your tuition will offset the taxes, and you get tax free money. There was another post on here about a guy buying a house with IRA/401k money this way.

I plan on paying almost all of my tuition through employer sponsored plans that will be rolled to an IRA (at a super low fee place like Vanguard) and the remainder will be converted to Roth during those negative income years.

 

[mspeedwagon]

I was EXACTLY like you. Said I'd be willing to give up everything to go to med school. I did and the sacrifice no longer seems worth it. I got completely demoralized failing three out of four exams (three in a row), I am home sick and clearly am wondering what the hell I am doing this for. The good news for me is I can jump ship at any time without much loss (except for the tuition donation to the university). My old job exists and I can go back to making six figures at any point. I could also likely make more money as an independent contractor, which I have considered doing previously. I would not leave a pension for med school unless you are already vested in it or you can easily get the same job with the pension plan is you leave med school.

And, since I have a background in financial planning what you said is right. The previous poster was misinformed about ROTHs. A ROTH is a good choice in almost all cases for physicians since your earnings are only going to keep going up and you've already paid taxes on that money. You can do a conversion into a ROTH while you are in school with no income. And, you have access to the principle as needed in the interim. There are no penalties associated with the withdrawal of principle from a ROTH. Yields are generally the same since you have access to virtually the same funds as you would outside of a ROTH.

As a premed who is late 20's, with a low six figure salary, quite a bit of money saved in an employer plan, and a sweet pension I'll throw away to go to med school, your post (and the post by whipple) are a bit disconcerting. I feel pretty confident about my decision, but when I'm broke living on ramen and studying 15 hours a day, I'm sure my sweet office, salary, and pension will be missed.

How is the yield terrible? Comparative to what? You can own the same things in a Roth as you can anywhere else, and unlike any other account you won't be taxed when it comes out, so 10k in a Roth is 10k while 10k in a traditional account is more like 7k real dollars. Fees and penalties for withdrawals? You can always withdraw contributions, at any age, with no penalty - unlike pretty much any other account type. And the minimum withdrawal age is 59.5, not 65. You should spend time time on White Coat Investor's website and Bogleheads when you become close to becoming an attending. Or now, if you have a lot of money saved away.

I'm not saying a Roth is a good choice in every case, but in many cases (and if you can convert during negative income years like I hope to) it is a great choice. Conversion from a traditional account has no max, you just have to pay tax. If you are in a negative income bracket, your tuition will offset the taxes, and you get tax free money. There was another post on here about a guy buying a house with IRA/401k money this way.

I plan on paying almost all of my tuition through employer sponsored plans that will be rolled to an IRA (at a super low fee place like Vanguard) and the remainder will be converted to Roth during those negative income years.

 

[BluMist]

I'm in similar boat right now, and I started taking classes but haven't made the full commitment to quit my job ... yet
This might sound bad, but I feel like I need to get into a "top" school to justify my (hopefully temporary) loss of income. Assuming ~7 years of school + res, the loss of income would be around $1 mil + tuition
I'm not going into medicine (strictly) for the money (I'd make more if I stay where I am) but I also don't want to go back to being poor.

As a premed who is late 20's, with a low six figure salary, quite a bit of money saved in an employer plan, and a sweet pension I'll throw away to go to med school, your post (and the post by whipple) are a bit disconcerting. I feel pretty confident about my decision, but when I'm broke living on ramen and studying 15 hours a day, I'm sure my sweet office, salary, and pension will be missed.

 

[Gulliver Dark]

It is a rough situation to be a successful non trad faced with giving up a ton of security for a ton of uncertainty. I'll be giving up a great salary, ultimate job security, and a great pension (~60-70k/year starting at 50), and will definitely be taking an overall loss on income. But I think it is worth it, for a lot of reasons. That said, if I fail out or physician reimbursement goes down a ton, I am sure I'll be regretting it. I actually like my job. But I don't want to be doing it for another 20+ years, among other issues. And I definitely feel the "call" of medicine. From my shadowing and volunteer experience, I think medicine is where I should have been years ago.

I think leaving med school debt free (GI Bill will cover most if not all, and the rest will come from savings/retirement plans) will help quite a bit on the money side, and it isn't about the money (or obviously, I'd stay where I am).

 

[deleted307836]

mspeedwagon, I greatly appreciate the insight you're offering in this thread. Thank you for starting it and for sharing your thoughts.

 

[mspeedwagon]

Since I am a long time sdn member, you sound like me and whipple before we started med school. I could have written you a 200 pg paper (not kidding) telling you why I felt a "calling" to medicine and it would all be worth it. I spent 5 yrs blinded on getting in. I also have thousands of hrs of shadowing, volunteering and the like and know my way around hospitals like the back of my hand.

I did not believe I would ever question this path. I did not listen to my physician friends that said do not do it. Tried to find only those that were positive and wanted it as badly as I thought I did. I attended conferences and met other non-trads, but, again, never listened to anyone that said a negative thing. I would never question my decision, it was my calling in life. I also would have said the same thing as you, "I like my job, but do not want to do it 20 yrs from now."

However, things change when you are in. I probably would be questioning this with passing grades (I do have some; highest grade in class in clinical skills) because it is all consuming... Med school, which is hellish in workload and monotony, takes over your life. I almost feel you need to have been dissatisfied with where you were to be successful in med school. Most of my classmates motivate themselves by saying they would never go back to what they were doing before... ever!

In my opinion you would be beyond crazy to give up a 70k pension a yr at 50 (assuming it lasts for life) to do this. Read that sentence during M1 year and you will be surprised with how much you are going to agree with it! Most non-trads on this board would agree with me (even the physicians). If you start a thread that asks, "should I give up a job with a lifelong pension at 50 to go med school", the vast majority of people on this board will likely say NO, it is totally not worth it.

I'll be giving up a great salary, ultimate job security, and a great pension (~60-70k/year starting at 50), and will definitely be taking an overall loss on income. But I think it is worth it, for a lot of reasons. That said, if I fail out or physician reimbursement goes down a ton, I am sure I'll be regretting it. I actually like my job. But I don't want to be doing it for another 20+ years, among other issues. And I definitely feel the "call" of medicine. From my shadowing and volunteer experience, I think medicine is where I should have been years ago.

 

[GCSDOC]

Since I am a long time sdn member, you sound like me and whipple before we started med school. I could have written you a 200 pg paper (not kidding) telling you why I felt a "calling" to medicine and it would all be worth it. I spent 5 yrs blinded on getting in. I also have thousands of hrs of shadowing, volunteering and the like and know my way around hospitals like the back of my hand.

I did not ever believe I would ever question this path. I did not listen to my physician friends that said do not do it. Tried to find only those that were positive and wanted it as badly as I thought I did. I attended conferences and met other non-trads, but, again, never listened to anyone that said a negative thing. I would never question my decision, it was my calling in life. I also would have said the same thing as you, "I like my job, but do not want to do it 20 yrs from now."

However, things change when you are in. I probably would be questioning this with passing grades because it is all consuming... Med school, which is hellish in workload and monotony, takes over your life. I almost feel you need to have been dissatisfied with where you were to be successful in med school. Most of my classmates motivate themselves by saying they would never go back to what they were doing before... ever!

In my opinion you would be beyond crazy to give up a 70k pension a yr at 50 (assuming it lasts for life) to do this. Read that sentence during M1 year and you will be surprised with how much you are going to agree with it! Most non-trads on this board would agree with me (even the physicians). If you start a thread that asks, "should I give up a job with a lifelong pension at 50 to go med school", the vast majority of people on this board will likely say NO, it is totally not worth it.

So lets say you leave, how will you fill the void of your "calling" or is that "calling" no longer present for you?

 

[GCSDOC]

I ask this bc I have tried a bunch of things but still feel like there is this void telling me I would be happiest and most satisfied down this path.....tbh, my biggest fear would be that I would end up in middle of M1 or M2 questioning my decision (like you) and bc I understand the dollar really well, my rational self may force me to stop rather than keep risking the thousands of dollars and keep pushing through the difficult, yet rewarding journey. Im all about alternatives to fill this void but have yet to find it....

 

[mspeedwagon]

Not sure if you read the post by whipple quoted earlier or some of the comments on sdn by Q (the admin, who is a physician and talked about setting herself up financially to leave practice because things like flexibility have become more important for her than practicing medicine).

I honestly feel "calling" is not the appropriate word now. I would never have said that before med school though. Back to why I think people should be able to try it before jumping in. In the end of the day it is a job that requires a lot of sacrifice to get and keep and at some point the sacrifice may not be worth it (for some that is M1 year, others M2, M3, M4... I just met someone that quit during intern yr and some that are trying to get out after becoming physicians). When people walk away no one in medicine asks why... they inherently understand.

If I left today, I would have no void and no regrets but only because I know what it is like firsthand to be in med school. I may have otherwise regretted not giving it a go. I would basically say a lot of the same things whipple did in his post.

So lets say you leave, how will you fill the void of your "calling" or is that "calling" no longer present for you?

 

[Gulliver Dark]

I can probably get my management to give me a leave of absence - or use leave - for a semester and maybe even two. The only thing I worry about is that with a security blanket it might be easier to just quit because M1 sucks... and everyone says M2 is better, M3 is even better, and M4 is awesome.

It seems like you are dead set on quitting, mspeedwagon. Are you going to reevaluate at the end of the semester, or are you pretty sure you're done? If you're that good at clinical stuff I imagine you'll be better off in M3... but like you say, you may always hate it.

Interesting stuff.

 

[jl lin]

msspeedwagon, again I'm grateful that you have shared here. At the same time, I have to say, as annoying as the first two years of MS can be, by way of the numerous docs I have worked with over a very long time, it's nothing compared with say PGY-1 and the dissatisfaction and abuse that you will feel.
On one hand, as I said somewhere else (can't remember now), people hate the first two years, it gets better very often for students in years 3 and 4, and then there is the "Holy Hell" slam of internship--PGY-1. After that, however, things get better for a number of folks, though it's never a vacation, as you know.

So I guess I am saying, will you rebound in years 3 and 4 like many do? Will you rebound after having worked and studied in the Hell Year of PGY-1? If you surely have some deep down inclination that you won't, yea, maybe you should "wipe the dust off your feet" and do something else. You are fortunate in that you can go back to a field that pays well, so eating the loss of the year won't kill you.

If you think you have the staying power to keep going, I'd say figure out what that said staying power (motivation) is. Personally I truly believe it's about getting to the truth of where your heart is.

But to also be fair, so many physicians I have known have, again, shared their aggravation and disappointment when in years 1 & 2 and in PGY-1--these times in particular.

Either way, you have to be fair with you. You don't want to shortchange you either way, but that depends on what the actual source of the staying power is. I mean, I agree about how your school has handled certain things; but what you seem to be expressing is something even more than that.

So is it the temporary angst and frustration that is not atypical in Ms-1 & 2, or is it that the source of true motivation is not strong enough? I have no idea, so I can't judge. Only you know this.

 

[edgerock24]

@mspeedwagon just curious, what industry did you work in prior to starting medical school?

 

[jl lin]

@mspeedwagon just curious, what industry did you work in prior to starting medical school?

He mentioned it in one of his previous posts above I believe--having to do with finance mgt I think.

 

[mspeedwagon]

Honestly, we should just change places. I will take the job with a $70k pension at 50 and you take my spot in med school. Can you PM what industry you are in? I should start looking for jobs in the field!

I would set things up like that and forget they exist. LOA for a year leaves you some security if you do want to bail, but just don't think of it as an option you have while in school. My opinion, as a med student, is you are INSANE to give up a pension (I know I said that several times already). Hell, go to med school at 50 while collecting the pension if you still feel the need to be a physician then.

Remember, my SO has been through med school, as have the majority of my friends from college (advantage of a non-trad). There are two schools of thought (I thought I fell in the latter, but not so sure any more). And, no, I'm not dead set on quitting yet:

Many of my friends fell into this trap of thinking it will always get better at the next stage: M1 year sucks, but M2 will be awesome. M2 starts and... hell, M2 sucks... plus Step 1 (holy s**t!). Well, made it through, M3 will be good. Then M3 starts, go on rotation after rotation and don't find anything interesting... well, M3 sucks. M4 will be better. Now have to fly to residency interviews for IM positions, which wasn't the ideal choice, but they found nothing interesting, well that sucked. Well, it's ok, I'll appreciate having a job and income... cue intern year and wow, why am I doing this? This sucks. Well, it'll get better after residency. Then, become attendings... miss Christmas cause you have to work, miss weddings, miss time with family and kids... well, this sucks. Time to leave medicine. Will not recommend this path to anyone.

Then there are people like my own SO that went like this: well M1 year, science, let's learn as much as possible. Basic science is awesome. M2 year... cool, this is more clinically relevant stuff, it'll be great to see in practice. Step 1 (holy s**t!). Score comes back: 250+... not bad! M3, this is awesome... I have dreamed about the clinic my whole life. I love every rotation, except psych because they keep letting me out early and I don't want to be let out early... can't the person see I dream of medicine. Why are they letting me out early? End of year, fall in love with specialty that keeps you in the hospital the most hours. Getting to the hospital at 4:30 a.m. is awesome! Spends all 4th year rotating in this specialty. Residency match into specialty. Intern yr... painful but temporary. Several yrs into residency... now dreaming of fellowship. Would do medical school over again in a heartbeat to end up in the same place (only yr SO says would make her question repeating this path is the potential to repeat intern year, but would happily do all other years again).

Not related to above, but I should add I was pretty happy to get the highest grade in class in clinical skills. Though, something struck me at that point. I should have really given PA or something similar more consideration. More clinic, less science and I could do a combo of my current position and a part-time gig in a clinic.

I can probably get my management to give me a leave of absence - or use leave - for a semester and maybe even two. The only thing I worry about is that with a security blanket it might be easier to just quit because M1 sucks... and everyone says M2 is better, M3 is even better, and M4 is awesome.

It seems like you are dead set on quitting, mspeedwagon. Are you going to reevaluate at the end of the semester, or are you pretty sure you're done? If you're that good at clinical stuff I imagine you'll be better off in M3... but like you say, you may always hate it.

Interesting stuff.

 

[mspeedwagon]

I should say for now I'm not completely abandoning ship. I can definitely eat the financial loss with no issue if I do decide to leave at this point. $25k is not a big deal if you put it into the spectrum of lifelong earning potential. Obviously the further I go, the harder it will be to leave.

This thread was about things I could have done to set myself up better. I think that my setup contributed to losing site of purpose. Like I said earlier, I get easily demoralized and failing 3 exams in a row (even if the class failed 2 of them on avg) had a profound impact on me. Lost my purpose and started questioning if I really want to do this. Do I want this to be my life?

You are fortunate in that you can go back to a field that pays well, so eating the loss of the year won't kill you.

If you think you have the staying power to keep going, I'd say figure out what that said staying power (motivation) is. Personally I truly believe it's about getting to the truth of where your heart is.

But to also be fair, so many physicians I have known have, again, shared their aggravation and disappointment when in years 1 & 2 and in PGY-1--these times in particular.

Either way, you have to be fair with you. You don't want to shortchange you either way, but that depends on what the actual source of the staying power is. I mean, I agree about how your school has handled certain things; but what you seem to be expressing is something even more than that.

So is it the temporary angst and frustration that is not atypical in Ms-1 & 2, or is it that the source of true motivation is not strong enough? I have no idea, so I can't judge. Only you know this.

 

[Gulliver Dark]

I will PM you. I think a LOA is a good option - and the more I've thought about this today, the more secure I feel in switching careers.

 

[Seth Joo]

Hi All, I started medical school this fall and learned a few things that I wish to share with non-trads that I wish I knew when applying. I got some pretty good advice from sdn and some bad advice. Here are things that I would have done differently if I was applying to schools now.

1) When evaluating schools get the schedule and see how much study time you are given. Look for schools with the least amount of class and greatest number of free hours to study. If you are in school from 8 a.m. - 5 p.m., you're basically left with 5 hrs or so (at most) to study and this may not be enough if you have been out of school for a while. Also, try to find out if the school has a 5 year decelerated option (it's nice to know it exists if you need it), but don't ask about this at interviews.

2) In the same vain as number one, look for the least required extracurricular activities. Ideally no required physician shadowing, no forced trips before exams and the like (you want your first two years to be dedicated to doing well on your in-class exams and the boards).

3) Teaching quality and recorded lectures are very important as are access to old exams. This is really hard to evaluate. I asked about this at the interview for every school, but I didn't get an honest answer. Go around and ask students and search for reviews (though these may be hard to find... unlike in undergrad where you have whole websites dedicated to reviewing profs). The first year teachers I've had to deal with range from mediocre to really bad. Also, we had a lot of issues with recorded lectures, which has sucked given that I really needed to re-watch some of them.

4) Don't waste your time in-class if you aren't learning. This was a huge mistake I made. I went to class to get exposure to material... it's a complete waste. Either read up before the lecture so you can optimize learning in-class or watch the recorded lecture so you can pause it if you don't understand something.

5) Prepare for every class. You should at least have the basics of what is going to be covered today. If you don't you are going to get lost pretty quickly and are again wasting your time.

6) Be military with time. Plan life/study schedule and stick to it as best as you can.

7) Don't only relax the summer before starting medical school (this was probably the worst advice I got from sdn). If you've been out of school a while (more than 2 or 3 and certainly if more than 5), I would actually go ahead and start reading science textbooks again (preferably in subjects that you are about to cover in the first semester). Figure out how you learn best (auditory, visual, kinesthetic). Spend a lot of time coming up with a study strategy that will work for you. There is going to be a tremendous amount of material thrown at you and if you don't know how to process it panic attacks, anxiety and depression will ensue and you'll loose your purpose and start hating medical school and this is not a position you want to find yourself in.

8) The MCAT does not prepare you at all for medical school. A misconception that I had is that some of the material from the MCAT would help carry me through my first year of medical school. All those hours put in for the MCAT are basically just a checkbox. I hope one day the MCAT serves as a prep test for med school. In a little over half a semester of med school, the only thing that has overlapped with MCAT material is Ohm's law (V=IR was mentioned in cellular physiology), skeletal muscle contraction and action potential generation.

9) If you are going to medical school in a different state, move at least a month before. If you need a car, get a certified pre-owned one with a warranty. And, ideally, live alone or, if you have to, another medical student (assuming you aren't married of course... if you are, then live with your significant other).

10) If you see yourself doing anything else, do it. I often dream of my old job and wonder why I left a six figure income for med school (which I'd describe as signing up for voluntary torture), but I really want to do this. I would be happy returning to my old job if I fail out, but only at that point.

My first semester of medical school has been a bit of a disaster because I basically didn't do the above. If I could do it all over, I'd pick the other school, move to the state a month in advance, come up with study strategies that work, buy a better car and live alone. If you do these things, you are destined to have a great transition into the right school for you. Good luck!

I have to disagree with much of what you wrote except for the part of living accommodations, its better to live alone or with one other person.

I think its a great idea to go on a trip before medical school because its really the last time you have any sort of time to yourself, once you start school you can say goodbye to all of that.

You need a car, cannot disagree with that.

As far as going to class, many schools do not require this, mine did not, I had everything organized on Powerpoint slides, online, and studied them efficiently, wound up doing very well, you just have to spend time studying everyday.

 

[mspeedwagon]

You do realize that is exactly what I said right. Either optimize learning in class or do not go. See point number 4 . You started with you disagree with me on most things and then agreed with me on all but one point.

Basically seems the only point we disagree on is the merit of a trip before med school. If you are a non-trad, 5 yrs out with no recent bio classes, skip the trip. Otherwise, go for it.

As far as going to class, many schools do not require this, mine did not, I had everything organized on Powerpoint slides, online, and studied them efficiently, wound up doing very well, you just have to spend time studying everyday.

 

[Seth Joo]

You do realize that is exactly what I said right. Either optimize learning in class or do not go. See point number 4 . You started with you disagree with me on most things and then agreed with me on all but one point.

Basically seems the only point we disagree on is the merit of a trip before med school. If you are a non-trad, 5 yrs out with no recent bio classes, skip the trip. Otherwise, go for it.

Given the way most Gen Y types are in lecture, most goof off and try to distract you in lecture, its better to skip out on lecture, study them on your own. My school had all material online, the professors posted the material a day or two before the lecture, so I downloaded everything and began studying the material at home.

 

[mspeedwagon]

We completely agree. Some lectures are mandatory for us and some teachers do not hand out or make available their powerpoints but you and I are in complete agreement. Skipping as much class to study is the way to go.

Just found it odd you started with you disagree with most things and then agreed on all but one point.

Given the way most Gen Y types are in lecture, most goof off and try to distract you in lecture, its better to skip out on lecture, study them on your own. My school had all material online, the professors posted the material a day or two before the lecture, so I downloaded everything and began studying the material at home.

 

[katiemaude]

I should say for now I'm not completely abandoning ship. I can definitely eat the financial loss with no issue if I do decide to leave at this point. $25k is not a big deal if you put it into the spectrum of lifelong earning potential. Obviously the further I go, the harder it will be to leave.

This thread was about things I could have done to set myself up better. I think that my setup contributed to losing site of purpose. Like I said earlier, I get easily demoralized and failing 3 exams in a row (even if the class failed 2 of them on avg) had a profound impact on me. Lost my purpose and started questioning if I really want to do this. Do I want this to be my life?

This is why I gave you the advice I did in a pm. I do think the failing thing is what is contributing to your demoralization, and I wanted you to know that it likely won't keep happening if you change your study habits and figure out what works best for you. The thoughts you have had about PA I frequently have myself, so I am not saying don't jump ship if you realize you would be better off as a PA. This is a long, hard road. I would be a practicing PA for years by now if I had chosen that path. I might be married with kids. Instead I chose this really expensive and life altering path that might leave me with no husband or family because of its all consuming nature and my advanced age. Sometimes I really regret it. But with all the people you've known to go through med school and your wisdom and life experience, you still chose to attend. Let that count for something. I wouldn't make the decision based on the first semester. If you can improve your grades and you get involved in the "fluffy" stuff like your physician shadowing and still want out, then by all means. I'd say the biggest warning sign that the career is not for you is if you hate the fluffy clinical stuff (not just momentarily resenting the extra time). Usually anything we get to do that is hands on gives us a high that lasts for days. I'd be worried if you can't stand it.

 

[Dohnut]

Someone sticky this thread please?

Hi All, I started medical school this fall and learned a few things that I wish to share with non-trads that I wish I knew when applying. I got some pretty good advice from sdn and some bad advice. Here are things that I would have done differently if I was applying to schools now.

1) When evaluating schools get the schedule and see how much study time you are given. Look for schools with the least amount of class and greatest number of free hours to study. If you are in school from 8 a.m. - 5 p.m., you're basically left with 5 hrs or so (at most) to study and this may not be enough if you have been out of school for a while. Also, try to find out if the school has a 5 year decelerated option (it's nice to know it exists if you need it), but don't ask about this at interviews.

2) In the same vain as number one, look for the least required extracurricular activities. Ideally no required physician shadowing, no forced trips before exams and the like (you want your first two years to be dedicated to doing well on your in-class exams and the boards).

3) Teaching quality and recorded lectures are very important as are access to old exams. This is really hard to evaluate. I asked about this at the interview for every school, but I didn't get an honest answer. Go around and ask students and search for reviews (though these may be hard to find... unlike in undergrad where you have whole websites dedicated to reviewing profs). The first year teachers I've had to deal with range from mediocre to really bad. Also, we had a lot of issues with recorded lectures, which has sucked given that I really needed to re-watch some of them.

4) Don't waste your time in-class if you aren't learning. This was a huge mistake I made. I went to class to get exposure to material... it's a complete waste. Either read up before the lecture so you can optimize learning in-class or watch the recorded lecture so you can pause it if you don't understand something or just review notes and power points if your school makes them available.

5) Prepare for every class. You should at least have the basics of what is going to be covered today. If you don't you are going to get lost pretty quickly and are again wasting your time.

6) Be military with time. Plan life/study schedule and stick to it as best as you can.

7) Don't only relax the summer before starting medical school (this was probably the worst advice I got from sdn). If you've been out of school a while (more than 2 or 3 and certainly if more than 5), I would actually go ahead and start reading science textbooks again (preferably in subjects that you are about to cover in the first semester). Figure out how you learn best (auditory, visual, kinesthetic). Spend a lot of time coming up with a study strategy that will work for you. There is going to be a tremendous amount of material thrown at you and if you don't know how to process it panic attacks, anxiety and depression will ensue and you'll loose your purpose and start hating medical school and this is not a position you want to find yourself in.

8) The MCAT does not prepare you at all for medical school. A misconception that I had is that some of the material from the MCAT would help carry me through my first year of medical school. All those hours put in for the MCAT are basically just a checkbox. I hope one day the MCAT serves as a prep test for med school. In a little over half a semester of med school, the only thing that has overlapped with MCAT material is Ohm's law (V=IR was mentioned in cellular physiology), skeletal muscle contraction and action potential generation.

9) If you are going to medical school in a different state, move at least a month before. If you need a car, get a certified pre-owned one with a warranty. And, ideally, live alone or, if you have to, another medical student (assuming you aren't married of course... if you are, then live with your significant other).

10) If you see yourself doing anything else, do it. I often dream of my old job and wonder why I left a six figure income for med school (which I'd describe as signing up for voluntary torture), but I really want to do this. I would be happy returning to my old job if I fail out, but only at that point.

My first semester of medical school has been a bit of a disaster because I basically didn't do the above. If I could do it all over, I'd pick the other school, move to the state a month in advance, come up with study strategies that work, buy a better car and live alone. If you do these things, you are destined to have a great transition into the right school for you. Good luck!

 

[MD89]

While I have not started med school yet, to me it sounds like you are mixing up being a med student and being a doctor. What I would suggest before you drop out is to go back and do a few of the things you were doing before that made you decide toI leave your job and go to med school. While you probably won't learn anything academically by doing this, it might rejuvenate you and remind you again why you really decided to go down this path.

And, the grass is always greener, just saying. After I took most of my prereqs, I went back to my old job for financial reasons. When I was in school, I remembered it so fondly I was like, it totally makes sense to go back. Um, I was definitely viewing my old job with rosecolored glasses. True the money and flexibility were awesome but there was a reason I left it in the first place and for me, that reason is the same reason why I am leaving it a second time to become a money-strapped student that I never thought I would ever be

 

[DrMidlife]

...mixing up being a med student and being a doctor....

It takes a minimum of SEVEN+ YEARS in med school and residency before you are a practicing physician not subject to a training program. You won't even remember what you wrote in your med school essay by 2 years in. The words in your med school essay will have completely different meanings to you by the end of 3rd year because you can actually see inside the crucible. If you are lucky, you won't lose your humanity in med school and residency. But I'll tell you for damn sure, if you haven't demonstrated the ability to be a good person despite an extended actual real crisis before med school, med school isn't going to teach you those "how to be a good person" basics. The degree to which your own personal variant of "I just want to help people" in your med school essay is just an imaginative unrealistic delicate fantasy increases the farther along you get in medical school and residency. Unfortunately I've seen that the bullsh!x in med school essays about "helping people" has no basis in reality for way too many of my classmates. Med school is more than happy to break you like a twig. Which is the point of this thread.

Some of us in nontrad have had careers that lasted longer than 7 years before we became premeds, but in general SEVEN+ YEARS IS A CAREER.

So it absolutely matters that you can make it through the career of med student and then the career of residency for SEVEN+ YEARS without needing the world, and your dreams for changing it, to hold still for SEVEN+ YEARS. The career you think you're applying for when you apply to med school isn't doctor. It's med student with a promotion path to resident, which has a promotion path to practicing doctor, and both have exit doors along the way, with the cost of exiting becoming increasingly obscene.

The whole "I want a meaningful career where I can help people" thing is pretty much "I want to not hate my job, make some money, and be a target of respect for people who think doctors help people". The idea that medicine is the only way you can have a meaningful career where you can help people is a tragic lack of imagination.

All that said, as I stated above, if you can make it through career 1 of being a med student, you start getting to do things that are very worth it. Which almost never have anything to do with what you thought you wanted as a premed. And you do eventually get used to not sleeping and being broke.

Best of luck to you.

 

[MD89]

@DrMidlife - great point. What I meant, and perhaps it didn't come across as such (since I've been typing from my phone) is that being a med student is really just a means (albeit a long and difficult means) to an eventual "end" of becoming a doctor. So while of course he needs to be successful as a student, his status as a student is not permanent as the end goal of med school is to become a doctor.

 

[jl lin]

This is why I gave you the advice I did in a pm. I do think the failing thing is what is contributing to your demoralization, and I wanted you to know that it likely won't keep happening if you change your study habits and figure out what works best for you. The thoughts you have had about PA I frequently have myself, so I am not saying don't jump ship if you realize you would be better off as a PA. This is a long, hard road. I would be a practicing PA for years by now if I had chosen that path. I might be married with kids. Instead I chose this really expensive and life altering path that might leave me with no husband or family because of its all consuming nature and my advanced age. Sometimes I really regret it. But with all the people you've known to go through med school and your wisdom and life experience, you still chose to attend. Let that count for something. I wouldn't make the decision based on the first semester. If you can improve your grades and you get involved in the "fluffy" stuff like your physician shadowing and still want out, then by all means. I'd say the biggest warning sign that the career is not for you is if you hate the fluffy clinical stuff (not just momentarily resenting the extra time). Usually anything we get to do that is hands on gives us a high that lasts for days. I'd be worried if you can't stand it.

I think @katiemaude makes strong points here. I mean, who wouldn't be demoralized by your testing situation? Give @katiemaude a listen--especially since she has gone down this path.

 

[Gfliptastic]

Some good advice in here. Not sure how it is germane to non-trads in that it works for traditional medical students too.

And I know there is a "culture shock" when you start med school. And I know it is a soul-sucking experience to work your tuckus off and not reap the benefits. I didn't fail any exams in med school but I was deflated by the amount of effort I was pouring into the endeavor to be non-statistically significantly above the mean (and below occasionally). If you ARE considering jumping ship, do it ASAP. Cuz let me tell you, being a doctor (cough*intern*cough) is a s***-show!!!

Even I myself may be able to find quotes from me stating that "oh we are in a much better place because a lot of us had careers and know what a hard hours of work in our careers was" BULLS***!! Unless you were a doctor already (which doesn't make sense) I don't think any career can prepare you for being a PGY-1/intern. There is nothing more stressful than the actual responsibility for patient's lives. I just finished (med) floors, and my god, it was so overwhelming. I am glad I escaped relatively unscathed. I'm happy to be on elective now. It's like being asked to fly a plane, w/o ever having flown a plane, and then knowing the veteran pilot (your attending) will check on you a couple times during the flight. A wrong medication or dosage is potentially harmful and you gotta keep track of multiple drugs for your multiple patients. Maybe it's more like an air-traffic controller?

I encouraged my medical student to try discharge summary. The sheer paperwork/bureaucratic stuff involved in patient care is very real. Every intern hates floors. And surprise surprise, floors are integral to your training as a doctor. So it's a hate-hate relationship.

My one piece of advice, even if you are a well-regarded master of your industry, when you jump into the medicine pool, you ain't s***. Your summa cum laude valedictorian talent and gifts are nothing. Expect to be nothing except average. And go w/ it. You will have every chip knocked off your shoulders. You really are so low you should ignore it. Cuz it gets even worse when you are an intern. Even AFTER you finish the 4 years of medical school. If you are changing careers, leave it all in that career. You want to be a doctor, start from scratch, and acknowledge you are scum, and need to be built up by the harsh road you will walk on. It will make the transition much easier. You will be just a pawn in the medical-industrial machine for a long time!

 

[jl lin]

Some good advice in here. Not sure how it is germane to non-trads in that it works for traditional medical students too.

And I know there is a "culture shock" when you start med school. And I know it is a soul-sucking experience to work your tuckus off and not reap the benefits. I didn't fail any exams in med school but I was deflated by the amount of effort I was pouring into the endeavor to be non-statistically significantly above the mean (and below occasionally). If you ARE considering jumping ship, do it ASAP. Cuz let me tell you, being a doctor (cough*intern*cough) is a s***-show!!!

Even I myself may be able to find quotes from me stating that "oh we are in a much better place because a lot of us had careers and know what a hard hours of work in our careers was" BULLS***!! Unless you were a doctor already (which doesn't make sense) I don't think any career can prepare you for being a PGY-1/intern. There is nothing more stressful than the actual responsibility for patient's lives. I just finished (med) floors, and my god, it was so overwhelming. I am glad I escaped relatively unscathed. I'm happy to be on elective now. It's like being asked to fly a plane, w/o ever having flown a plane, and then knowing the veteran pilot (your attending) will check on you a couple times during the flight. A wrong medication or dosage is potentially harmful and you gotta keep track of multiple drugs for your multiple patients. Maybe it's more like an air-traffic controller?

I encouraged my medical student to try discharge summary. The sheer paperwork/bureaucratic stuff involved in patient care is very real. Every intern hates floors. And surprise surprise, floors are integral to your training as a doctor. So it's a hate-hate relationship.

My one piece of advice, even if you are a well-regarded master of your industry, when you jump into the medicine pool, you ain't s***. Your summa cum laude valedictorian talent and gifts are nothing. Expect to be nothing except average. And go w/ it. You will have every chip knocked off your shoulders. You really are so low you should ignore it. Cuz it gets even worse when you are an intern. Even AFTER you finish the 4 years of medical school. If you are changing careers, leave it all in that career. You want to be a doctor, start from scratch, and acknowledge you are scum, and need to be built up by the harsh road you will walk on. It will make the transition much easier. You will be just a pawn in the medical-industrial machine for a long time!

This is exactly what I have seen and heard from many residents for MANY years. At least as a RN, I can jump ship if need be--hand in a resignation and find another position. Except for helping others out or doing extra paperwork b/c the crap hit the pan--codes and such--I can get into my car and not worry about it until my next set of shifts.

Residents do NOT really have this ability, and they carry the weight and abuse of it. Back in the day, liver rounds were regularly followed by all every Friday evening. (It all depends where and how nowadays.) Stuff has changed since those days. But rooftops were good for more than some intern-jumping. Nowadays, everyone is so uptight about everything. I remember when it was enough for the resident to be uptight about the important things, and no one really cared if a resident had a drink w/ fellow residents and such once a week on the hospital rooftop?

At least there are people here that aren't afraid to share, best they can I guess, that internship bites. But if you are miserable about it before you start, and openly so during, well, you can easily be flushing your career or at least selection of choices. The only thing I think that may seem to prepare people for it is perhaps surviving serious combat, while keeping your head about you during and long after your tours of duty. I think people should look at it a little like being in the military, in that you have no choice but to suck it up and plow forward. Also, the docs I've seen that regularly exercise and take care of themselves seem to handle it all a lot better--in general. I mean you've got to have some way to let go of the stress and humble-pie-eating. Can't do liver rounds all the time, so. . . .

 

[Dohnut]

What did you study in college and was your manager job healthcare related? Very curious here cuz I'm sorta in the same shoes (I'll have finished undergrad 11 years prior when I start med school, hopefully), I think I might go thru what you are right now.

Yes. Seeing some of the comments remember that my advice is specific to non-trads that have been out of school several years (haven't seen a bio book except for the MCAT in recent years). I think a med school light would have helped tremendously. Similarly, there are schools that let you take one class over the summer (normally anatomy) and then have a lighter load your first semester. Knowing what I do now, I would hunt down and apply to such schools.

 

[Dohnut]

Amen the first paragraph!!

It would be a huge shame if "bad professors" are why you're not having a good time. Not because the professors are bad, but because you're letting them kill you.

You can't equate a bad professor with your bad performance. The material is extremely standardized. There are a whole lot more variables than "bad professor".

I stopped going to lectures because more often than not, the lecturers sucked, there was no actual teaching (vs reading), the material was not organized, the number of slides was always 3x more than they could get done in the hour, the microphone was garbage with dead batteries half the time, and I wasn't going to be held hostage to the trick exam question(s) that you only know the answer to if you went to class. Thankfully we had video streaming that we could run at 1.5x. But the content in those lectures is always, always secondary to standard materials. If a study method doesn't work for you, try another, keep trying. You can literally use First Aid as a high level syllabus of what you're supposed to be learning. Get that material down first.

Honestly it sounds like you don't talk to your classmates at all. That would be incredibly isolating and awful, if so.

 

[mspeedwagon]

I studied biology. And yes, I have over ten yrs of experience in health care and know my way around a hospital with closed eyes (probably why I got the highest grade in clinical skills) and a SO that is a physician. I really thought I knew what I was getting myself into. Apparently not .

What did you study in college and was your manager job healthcare related? Very curious here cuz I'm sorta in the same shoes (I'll have finished undergrad 11 years prior when I start med school, hopefully), I think I might go thru what you are right now.

 

[Dohnut]

Frustration is your worst enemy it sounds. I think you should talk to DrMidlife.

Edit: best of luck to ya no matter what decision you make after surviving the first semester!

I was EXACTLY like you. Said I'd be willing to give up everything to go to med school. I did and the sacrifice no longer seems worth it. I got completely demoralized failing three out of four exams (three in a row), I am home sick and clearly am wondering what the hell I am doing this for. The good news for me is I can jump ship at any time without much loss (except for the tuition donation to the university). My old job exists and I can go back to making six figures at any point. I could also likely make more money as an independent contractor, which I have considered doing previously. I would not leave a pension for med school unless you are already vested in it or you can easily get the same job with the pension plan is you leave med school.

And, since I have a background in financial planning what you said is right. The previous poster was misinformed about ROTHs. A ROTH is a good choice in almost all cases for physicians since your earnings are only going to keep going up and you've already paid taxes on that money. You can do a conversion into a ROTH while you are in school with no income. And, you have access to the principle as needed in the interim. There are no penalties associated with the withdrawal of principle from a ROTH. Yields are generally the same since you have access to virtually the same funds as you would outside of a ROTH.

 

[DrMidlife]

So knowing more about mspeedwagon's situation, I can confirm that the exams he is referring to are particularly heinous (particularly two of the three), and that they have the same problem every year with students failing. It is a unique problem to first year because the core sciences are taught by a department outside of the COM that also instructs other health professions. To compensate, the COM curves these two classes so no more than 10 percent fail. They also provide free tutoring to any student who gets below a 75 on an exam and free study tables and reviews twice per week. I have a list as long as my arm of second year students who aced these classes and are being well compensated by the COM to tutor. Clubs offer reviews as well. Suffice it to say, the vast majority of students end up with passing scores and doing well on boards. But like any school you need to be responsible for your own education and make sure you are learning the major concepts as well as the nitty gritty that professors stress on their exams. Second year courses have course directors employed by the COM and are organized differently (although they have their own problems with guest lecturers). I failed two of the three tests he failed and I ended up with two As and a high B in the same classes. Fortunately the other exams are written more fairly. To assume the administration is totally unaware or uncaring would be wrong. They have carefully calibrated the number of exams, the need for a curve, etc while trying to work within a university hierarchy. The material is evaluated every year with input from students. Trust me, if board scores started dropping they'd be breathing fire down the neck of the professors. That's one of the benefits of attending a school that's been around for decades. You might not like the way they do everything but you have a 99.9 percent chance of walking across the stage with a DO degree and a residency lined up if that's what you still want.

At my school one faculty member tells us that what we're paying for, with our med school tuition, is the privilege to face the obstacles that the faculty puts in front of us. In the first 2 years, that's exam questions. The first time we heard this, most people were offended at his cynicism. But he's right.

He did the math and figured out that instaters were paying $40 per exam question, and OOS pay $80. He coached us to make the best of our exam dollars. All that semester he referred to the cost of an exam question. He taught study and exam strategies. Don't use black pens for notes - exercising the neural pathway for color recognition is associated with stronger recall. You give yourself a "partial refund" from missing a question if you get the content down in the exam review and you get it right on the final. So we knew our part.

But the thing he does that (as far as I know) nobody else on the faculty does is to apply a rigorous heuristic to the questions, after an exam. For any given question, the expectation is that X% of the top scorers should get it right, Y% of the middle, and Z% of the poor scorers. When those expectations are way off, or there's a serious disproportion of top scorers who picked the same wrong answer, more answers are accepted or the question gets thrown out (and he jokes about a refund). He had a way to evaluate the likelihood that answers were guessed, that I didn't quite catch, but muscles have at most 1 or 2 names and "clonidine" ain't one of em. He is obsessed with making sure that we are prepared for the test and that the test is fair. He knows, going in, from prior years, which types of questions are "harder" than others. But even the questions that are "easier" can be bad questions if the didactics failed, and he takes responsibility for those situations. Generally the top scorers will get full value from most of the questions, because they're ready to be tested hard on all the material. One time (and only once) we got to see the analysis up on the screen. Data don't lie.

So. One faculty member at a US MD school, doing it how it should be done, imho. I go to a low tier school. And in moving to shelf questions, the heuristic isn't available because it's national and proprietary. Anybody here from a top tier, want to pipe up on whether this happens where you are? This is nontrad, lots of engineers, we're supposed to care about the cogs behind the scenes...

tl;dr: Consider the value of your M1 and M2 years in terms of dollars per exam question. When an exam question is crap, doesn't reward you for learning the material, you paid full price for nothing.

 

[Dohnut]

My personal pcp whom I've also worked with professionally is very much against me choosing to go with med school on financial basis. I believe it's worth an all out effort.

Since I am a long time sdn member, you sound like me and whipple before we started med school. I could have written you a 200 pg paper (not kidding) telling you why I felt a "calling" to medicine and it would all be worth it. I spent 5 yrs blinded on getting in. I also have thousands of hrs of shadowing, volunteering and the like and know my way around hospitals like the back of my hand.

I did not believe I would ever question this path. I did not listen to my physician friends that said do not do it. Tried to find only those that were positive and wanted it as badly as I thought I did. I attended conferences and met other non-trads, but, again, never listened to anyone that said a negative thing. I would never question my decision, it was my calling in life. I also would have said the same thing as you, "I like my job, but do not want to do it 20 yrs from now."

However, things change when you are in. I probably would be questioning this with passing grades (I do have some; highest grade in class in clinical skills) because it is all consuming... Med school, which is hellish in workload and monotony, takes over your life. I almost feel you need to have been dissatisfied with where you were to be successful in med school. Most of my classmates motivate themselves by saying they would never go back to what they were doing before... ever!

In my opinion you would be beyond crazy to give up a 70k pension a yr at 50 (assuming it lasts for life) to do this. Read that sentence during M1 year and you will be surprised with how much you are going to agree with it! Most non-trads on this board would agree with me (even the physicians). If you start a thread that asks, "should I give up a job with a lifelong pension at 50 to go med school", the vast majority of people on this board will likely say NO, it is totally not worth it.

 

[mspeedwagon]

For the record, I have a lot of prior experience in health care and absolutely love clinical stuff. PDX is my favorite class. I volunteer for health fairs and the like and anything where I can practice doing things. I hate IGC ONLY because of the long drive to my site (about an hour each way), but actually love being in clinic.

What I wasn't prepared for was how much I'd hate the basic sciences classes. And, yes, maybe I'll enjoy them more if I see a payoff from studying.

I'd say the biggest warning sign that the career is not for you is if you hate the fluffy clinical stuff (not just momentarily resenting the extra time). Usually anything we get to do that is hands on gives us a high that lasts for days. I'd be worried if you can't stand it.

 

[Dohnut]

Okay so it sounds like your background is something like financial planning, so you should know how business works.

For me, I got a Pharm.D. after college and have been mostly a community pharmacist for years. I initially got similar thoughts to yours soon after going into practice then realized healthcare is a business first and foremost.

If you can stick to it with a business mentality and take all emotions outta it, frustration in particular, I'm confident you'll do fine in the end.

And a few residents' comments hold true. You ain't nothing when you start med school and pgy1, accepting this cold, hard truth will also help a ton, imho.



Edit: I rarely used SDN until this cycle so dunno many influential posters like Q. Could you ask her to sticky this thread to the nontrad forums? It'll be of TREMENDOUS help to future nontrads like you and me.

Not sure if you read the post by whipple quoted earlier or some of the comments on sdn by Q (the admin, who is a physician and talked about setting herself up financially to leave practice because things like flexibility have become more important for her than practicing medicine).

I honestly feel "calling" is not the appropriate word now. I would never have said that before med school though. Back to why I think people should be able to try it before jumping in. In the end of the day it is a job that requires a lot of sacrifice to get and keep and at some point the sacrifice may not be worth it (for some that is M1 year, others M2, M3, M4... I just met someone that quit during intern yr and some that are trying to get out after becoming physicians). When people walk away no one in medicine asks why... they inherently understand.

If I left today, I would have no void and no regrets but only because I know what it is like firsthand to be in med school. I may have otherwise regretted not giving it a go. I would basically say a lot of the same things whipple did in his post.

 

[Dohnut]

I just interviewed at mspeedwagon's state's other DO school's northern cousin this past Friday and there were 2 PA's going for DO, one of whom I got to know pretty well. So even if you did become a PA, I'm sure there'd still be that itch to give it a try.

Maybe borrow some of your SO's positive mentality?

Honestly, we should just change places. I will take the job with a $70k pension at 50 and you take my spot in med school. Can you PM what industry you are in? I should start looking for jobs in the field!

I would set things up like that and forget they exist. LOA for a year leaves you some security if you do want to bail, but just don't think of it as an option you have while in school. My opinion, as a med student, is you are INSANE to give up a pension (I know I said that several times already). Hell, go to med school at 50 while collecting the pension if you still feel the need to be a physician then.

Remember, my SO has been through med school, as have the majority of my friends from college (advantage of a non-trad). There are two schools of thought (I thought I fell in the latter, but not so sure any more). And, no, I'm not dead set on quitting yet:

Many of my friends fell into this trap of thinking it will always get better at the next stage: M1 year sucks, but M2 will be awesome. M2 starts and... hell, M2 sucks... plus Step 1 (holy s**t!). Well, made it through, M3 will be good. Then M3 starts, go on rotation after rotation and don't find anything interesting... well, M3 sucks. M4 will be better. Now have to fly to residency interviews for IM positions, which wasn't the ideal choice, but they found nothing interesting, well that sucked. Well, it's ok, I'll appreciate having a job and income... cue intern year and wow, why am I doing this? This sucks. Well, it'll get better after residency. Then, become attendings... miss Christmas cause you have to work, miss weddings, miss time with family and kids... well, this sucks. Time to leave medicine. Will not recommend this path to anyone.

Then there are people like my own SO that went like this: well M1 year, science, let's learn as much as possible. Basic science is awesome. M2 year... cool, this is more clinically relevant stuff, it'll be great to see in practice. Step 1 (holy s**t!). Score comes back: 250+... not bad! M3, this is awesome... I have dreamed about the clinic my whole life. I love every rotation, except psych because they keep letting me out early and I don't want to be let out early... can't the person see I dream of medicine. Why are they letting me out early? End of year, fall in love with specialty that keeps you in the hospital the most hours. Getting to the hospital at 4:30 a.m. is awesome! Spends all 4th year rotating in this specialty. Residency match into specialty. Intern yr... painful but temporary. Several yrs into residency... now dreaming of fellowship. Would do medical school over again in a heartbeat to end up in the same place (only yr SO says would make her question repeating this path is the potential to repeat intern year, but would happily do all other years again).

Not related to above, but I should add I was pretty happy to get the highest grade in class in clinical skills. Though, something struck me at that point. I should have really given PA or something similar more consideration. More clinic, less science and I could do a combo of my current position and a part-time gig in a clinic.

This is why I gave you the advice I did in a pm. I do think the failing thing is what is contributing to your demoralization, and I wanted you to know that it likely won't keep happening if you change your study habits and figure out what works best for you. The thoughts you have had about PA I frequently have myself, so I am not saying don't jump ship if you realize you would be better off as a PA. This is a long, hard road. I would be a practicing PA for years by now if I had chosen that path. I might be married with kids. Instead I chose this really expensive and life altering path that might leave me with no husband or family because of its all consuming nature and my advanced age. Sometimes I really regret it. But with all the people you've known to go through med school and your wisdom and life experience, you still chose to attend. Let that count for something. I wouldn't make the decision based on the first semester. If you can improve your grades and you get involved in the "fluffy" stuff like your physician shadowing and still want out, then by all means. I'd say the biggest warning sign that the career is not for you is if you hate the fluffy clinical stuff (not just momentarily resenting the extra time). Usually anything we get to do that is hands on gives us a high that lasts for days. I'd be worried if you can't stand it.

 

[deleted520847]

I think there is plenty to be said for pre-studying for medical school as a non-trad who has been out for a while. Maybe with this, one would not be as stressed out, especially brushing up on the sciences. Surely if M1 is as hard as people say it is because of all the information thrown at you, shouldn't it make sense to get a head start if you can. In my opinion, having a couple months on the beach then a year of hell is not worth it. I would rather have a couple months of gentle relaxed studying. Rivals every holiday I can think of. Heck if you must, take an Anatomy book with you on your beach holiday.I am a nerd though who has always enjoyed reading so take this with a grain of salt. All the talk here of 'do not pre-study' followed by 'M1 is a beast' just does not compute. Am I missing something?

Don't get me wrong, for a traditional student, this makes absolute sense, but I think we old farts need more time to perfect our study habits and the first year of M1 does not sound like the time to do it. Maybe the little head start will give us just the wiggle-room we need to fall without failing while we learn.

Now I know I am not yet a medical student so I will probably get a good knocking from med students who know everything but everyone is different. If you think pre-studying will help you, I say go for it. I know if I had not pre-studied before starting this semester of pre-reqs I would be failing out of my Biology, Physics and Chemistry courses. It had been more than 12 years since I did these courses in high school and I couldn't even remember my table of elements. Yes I could have learnt them all during the semester but if I had, I would have achieved a substandard score compared to the young hotshots right out of high school with this fresh on their minds.

Edit: Spelling correction

 

[mspeedwagon]

Your friendly neighborhood OP here. For the record I DO NOT endorse pre-studying (slight exception may be if you can get hands on material from the prof you will have that is going to be tested on the first exam). It's generally completely worthless. The amount of info coming at you so fast is something you need to experience firsthand. Pre-studying is of little value.

Rather what I was endorsing was opening up a physio book, a biochem book or whatever and saying if someone were to throw 3 or 4 chapters that I'd need to know cold in the span of a day how would I best learn it. What is my learning style for science? How can I quickly memorize and know things? Is it by reading it over and over again? Is it by writing it out? Is it by hearing lectures online about the topic?

I think spending some of the summer learning about yourself and how you learn is worthwhile time spent. Especially if science learning is going to be relatively new to you. Coming up with a few strategies for med school is worth it. Not every one will learn the same way so what works for one person may not for the next.

I think there is plenty to be said for pre-studying for medical school as a non-trad who has been out for a while. Maybe with this, one would not be as stressed out, especially brushing up on the sciences. Surely if M1 is as hard as people say it is because of all the information thrown at you, shouldn't it make sense to get a head start if you can. In my opinion, having a couple months on the beach then a year of hell is not worth it. I would rather have a couple months of gentle relaxed studying. Rivals every holiday I can think of. Heck if you must, take an Anatomy book with you on your beach holiday.I am a nerd though who has always enjoyed reading so take this with a grain of salt. All the talk here of 'do not pre-study' followed by 'M1 is a beast' just does not compute. Am I missing something?

Don't get me wrong, for a traditional student, this makes absolute sense, but I think we old farts need more time to perfect our study habits and the first year of M1 does not sound like the time to do it. Maybe the little head start will give us just the wiggle-room we need to fall without failing while we learn.

Now I know I am not yet a medical student so I will probably get a good knocking from med students who know everything but everyone is different. If you think pre-studying will help you, I say go for it. I know if I had not pre-studied before starting this semester of pre-reqs I would be failing out of my Biology, Physics and Chemistry courses. It had been more than 12 years since I did these courses in high school and I couldn't even remember my table of elements. Yes I could have learnt them all during the semester but if I had, I would have achieved a substandard score compared to the young hotshots right out of high school with this fresh on their minds.

Edit: Spelling correction

 

[pageantry]

Rather what I was endorsing was opening up a physio book, a biochem book or whatever and saying if someone were to throw 3 or 4 chapters that I'd need to know cold in the span of a day how would I best learn it. What is my learning style for science? How can I quickly memorize and know things? Is it by reading it over and over again? Is it by writing it out? Is it by hearing lectures online about the topic?

This strikes me as a brilliant idea--even a fun and potentially reassuring experiment before medical school. I will definitely make plans to try this somewhere in the middle of gorging myself on fun.