What NOT to do if you want to attend medical school

[Spinach Dip]

"Don't cheat or be dishonest"

Essentially

Unfortunately, that line is too obtuse for some people to understand.

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[Clark_Griswold]

Do NOT put twinkies on your pizza

 

[Lucca]

100% of my med school exams have been scantron. You don't escape it.

Just when you think you're out......

 

[deleted393595]

this goes for life in general. consent is important.

Another Golden Rule of Life: If he/she be crazy, run away.

 

[LizzyM]

if my buddy gives me a pdf of the full homework solutions instead of just odds, have I now committed academic dishonesty/cheating?

Yes. Don't take a chance with possession of any homework/quiz/exam answers that were not provided by your instructor. You aren't going to get the benefit of the doubt; the punishment for academic dishonesty is, basically, an academic death penalty when it comes to med school. Other professional schools might take the same hard line. why chance it?

 

[efle]

Yes. Don't take a chance with possession of any homework/quiz/exam answers that were not provided by your instructor. You aren't going to get the benefit of the doubt; the punishment for academic dishonesty is, basically, an academic death penalty when it comes to med school. Other professional schools might take the same hard line. why chance it?

Good to hear. And you view something like getting old exams from your frat buddy similarly? The only practice material you should use is that provided by the prof and accessible to all students in the class?

 

[Axes]

Brilliant thread idea. All the IA and legal trouble threads are a major force compelling me to stay on the straight and narrow in college.

Edit: I'd also say no more weed guys

 

[Cotterpin]

All the IA and legal trouble threads are a major force compelling me to stay on the straight and narrow in college.

That and, you know, integrity for integrity's sake.

 

[efle]

Brilliant thread idea. All the IA and legal trouble threads are a major force compelling me to stay on the straight and narrow in college.

principles/morals should be what compel you not to cheat bruh

 

[LivingLikeLarry]

I'd recommend not using fake ID's at bars (which if it's as common everywhere else as it is in Austin, then I know every single one of you has one), because you can get some pretty serious charges if you get caught by police, depending on the ID.

Or just hope that you have an older brother/sister that looks like you.

 

[efle]

I'd hope fake ID falls under the forgivable category like possessing alcohol though

 

[LivingLikeLarry]

^ I'm pretty sure it would be normally, but in my state, using someone else's real ID can result in a felony charge - which is bad for your record regardless of how you interpret the crime.

 

[Lawpy]

Great work @LizzyM. A very powerful caution for incoming premeds, even though they will/should be consistently informed about cheating/plagiarism/academic dishonesty by their college professors. Yes, some IAs are trivial, but academic dishonesty is a death sentence to the application. Hopefully, this resolves IA-related thread topics to a significant extent.

Also: Do not put yourself in a situation where you can be accused of domestic violence.

Avoid any possibility of arrest for Driving Under the Influence.

Agreed that's pretty important. However, DUI is sadly a bit mainstream even for medical students and higher ups despite the precautionary measures.

Moderators, please sticky LizzyM's outstanding post!

Do not give your clicker to someone else to use.
Do not use someone else's clicker.

Pre-meds: always take a hit to your grades, withdraw, whatever, but avoid getting an IA on your transcript. GPAs can be repaired. IAs for cheating/dishonest conduct cannot.

"Don't cheat or be dishonest"


Essentially

Agreed. I'd wager that even 2 semesters of Ws is a far better alternative than an academic dishonesty IA (or even milder versions).

If s/he doesn't say "yes" -- that means "no"

The "academic dishonesty" analog of romance?

 

[CaliforniaDreamer]

Good to hear. And you view something like getting old exams from your frat buddy similarly? The only practice material you should use is that provided by the prof and accessible to all students in the class?

I never thought of this as dishonest or as cheating in classes where the prof lets people take their exams home. If they let you take the finished exams, and never say anything about it, I don't think there is any implied dishonesty in giving it to someone else. Other classes are very restrictive about test questions and don't let students keep tests. In those cases, even if they don't have an explicit policy, it seems fairly obvious that they don't want people using old tests.

Honestly, would you even institute such a policy of no old test studying allowed? If you know that there are old tests out there, you would basically be handicapping all the honest students, by making something previously allowed into something illicit. Sort of the argument about making legal gun owners criminals by outlawing guns. You aren't stopping criminals, you are just inconveniencing regular folks and perhaps creating more criminals (this is not analogous to guns I am not taking a stance on that).

 

[Banco]

Is it similar to what not to do at a stoplight? Because...

 

[Holmwood]

I want to put fake solutions online, lol.

 

[Stagg737]

I imagine the forgery and impersonation is the dealbreaker there...when I say readily available I mean I can find it on a torrent site in about two seconds. Certainly illegal/copyright infringement to get possession this way, but if my buddy gives me a pdf of the full homework solutions instead of just odds, have I now committed academic dishonesty/cheating?

You're still downloading them illegally, so it would still be a problem. I'd be more curious as to how obtaining a teacher's copy of the book legally, through a site like amazon or eBay, would be taken. Imo, if the syllabus doesn't say that a student can't have a professors copy and it's not in a school's honor code, technically the student didn't do anything wrong. They just bought supplemental study material, which pretty much everyone does in med school. I'd be interested to hear what the adcoms would think about that situation.

Just when you think you're out......

Totally depends on the school. I haven't taken a test on scantron since my sophomore year of college. Test format isn't a bad question to ask about on interviews though, I'm surprised I don't get asked about it more...

 

[CaliforniaDreamer]

You're still downloading them illegally, so it would still be a problem.

Isn't this a civil issue not a criminal one? Do I have to abide by every civil code in order to remain ethical?

 

[Hospitalized]

Oops.

 

[ChrisMack390]

^ I'm pretty sure it would be normally, but in my state, using someone else's real ID can result in a felony charge - which is bad for your record regardless of how you interpret the crime.

In Boston they will charge you with identity theft.

I'd be willing to bet no one ultimately gets convicted of identity theft, but still.

 

[NotASerialKiller]

In particular, do not use medications for ADHD that were not prescribed for you by a licensed physician.

I've never understood why people take speed to study, even aside from the obvious reasons that it's a terrible idea. Sure you're awake and wired, but you're not mentally clear. Before a test you'll just end up frantic and scattered or crashing when you write, very little upside even for someone who's fine with cheating. I think it's mainly because people think it will help.

 

[ChrisMack390]

There was a study that showed that people who used adderall (etc) average lower grades than people who don't. Tough thing to study though, there are certainly a billion confounding variables.

 

[md-2020]

There was a study that showed that people who used adderall (etc) average lower grades than people who don't. Tough thing to study though, there are certainly a billion confounding variables.

Controlled for the same individual, I would expect the opposite to be true. You can't give a C student adderall and expect them to outperform a testing machine A student, though.

 

[Holmwood]

There was a study that showed that people who used adderall (etc) average lower grades than people who don't. Tough thing to study though, there are certainly a billion confounding variables.

There are numerous studies that show those who used "academic enhancing drugs" had lower performance relative to non-drug using students, but it's a correlation. Not even the appropriate control.

Those with lower performance are going to try and enhance their performance through bull**** means instead of trying to raise their grades the traditional way. And since the drug offers no benefits to those without some severe attention or cognitive problems (unless you're sleep deprived), then they're just going to continue to grovel in their terrible grades.

 

[NotASerialKiller]

There was a study that showed that people who used adderall (etc) average lower grades than people who don't. Tough thing to study though, there are certainly a billion confounding variables.

Yeah it would be really hard to isolate the effect of the drug for a study like this, but as a former drug user (before I got my act together, never to study) I would be shocked if it genuinely helped. Maybe it would increase your ability to memorize a string of numbers without getting bored, but for anything that requires more comprehension than that I think it would only hurt. That's why I think it's funny when students complain that others might be cheating by studying on Adderall, I don't believe it would ever be an advantage.

 

[Mad Jack]

I'd recommend not using fake ID's at bars (which if it's as common everywhere else as it is in Austin, then I know every single one of you has one), because you can get some pretty serious charges if you get caught by police, depending on the ID.

Or just hope that you have an older brother/sister that looks like you.

My god, what is with kids and their fake IDs nowadays. What happened to good old fashioned finding someone over the age of 21 to buy you booze.

 

[Mad Jack]

I want to put fake solutions online, lol.

I remember reading about a professor that did that specifically so that he could catch students using the BS answer he had posted lol.

 

[Mad Jack]

Great work @LizzyM. A very powerful caution for incoming premeds, even though they will/should be consistently informed about cheating/plagiarism/academic dishonesty by their college professors. Yes, some IAs are trivial, but academic dishonesty is a death sentence to the application. Hopefully, this resolves IA-related thread topics to a significant extent.



Agreed that's pretty important. However, DUI is sadly a bit mainstream even for medical students and higher ups despite the precautionary measures.




Agreed. I'd wager that even 2 semesters of Ws is a far better alternative than an academic dishonesty IA (or even milder versions).



The "academic dishonesty" analog of romance?

DUIs are hardly "mainstream." Where I live they are a very serious offense and land you some severe penalties, so I have known exactly zero people to acquire the notorious charge in college that I was close with. It's like, thousands of dollars in fines, a misdemeanor, and a 90 day license suspension for a first time offense.

Don't drink and drive, and if you're the kind of person that chances it, buy a reliable breathalyzer to take the chance out if the equation.

 

[bear2roo]

A kid in one of the classes I TA'd for got her calculus exam back, on which she had gotten a 64%. She took the exam home, opened up a Word document, and typed up a new copy of the test. She printed out the blank exam, and then filled in all the correct solutions, except for a few deliberate mistakes to make it look genuine. She even went so far as to use a red pen and add in some grader's comments. She then took the exam back to the professor and told him that he had made a mistake, he accidentally entered 64% on Blackboard when "really" she had gotten a 98%. Of course they recognized what she'd done right away, as the grader's comments were in her own handwriting, and she had a history of cheating (it was her second time taking the class).

So yeah. Don't do that.

Hey she could have a budding career in the Department of Treasury, Division of Forgery Catching lol

 

[GrapesofRath]

Also: Do not put yourself in a situation where you can be accused of domestic violence.

Avoid any possibility of arrest for Driving Under the Influence.

This really should be emphasized.

The accusation of domestic violence alone has very serious repercussions, even if it's validity ends being destroyed later on. Avoid any possibility or situation where the accusation can be made. And no matter how bad it is, realize the whole "they initiated the violence" defense isn't the way you want to go.

 

[efle]

I never thought of this as dishonest or as cheating in classes where the prof lets people take their exams home. If they let you take the finished exams, and never say anything about it, I don't think there is any implied dishonesty in giving it to someone else. Other classes are very restrictive about test questions and don't let students keep tests. In those cases, even if they don't have an explicit policy, it seems fairly obvious that they don't want people using old tests.

Honestly, would you even institute such a policy of no old test studying allowed? If you know that there are old tests out there, you would basically be handicapping all the honest students, by making something previously allowed into something illicit. Sort of the argument about making legal gun owners criminals by outlawing guns. You aren't stopping criminals, you are just inconveniencing regular folks and perhaps creating more criminals (this is not analogous to guns I am not taking a stance on that).

My issue is with disparity in access. An organization like a frat can scan a copy of every year's o-chem exam and have records going back decades, while the students not somehow connected to that group will get only the 2-3 past years posted online by the professor as practice. I agree you can't really fault the frat since there's no rules about this, but it seems like an unfair situation. A good parallel to the one student having access to all homework answers instead of just the odds because he got the teacher's edition of the solution manual instead of the student solution guide...he probably didn't violate any specific clauses of an honor code, but I'd count that under some sort of general rule against dishonest/unfair practice. If we go by LizzyM's rule to only use materials provided/approved by the professor, both cases would fall under cheating. However most professors would never say "only use these materials" since they want to encourage or at least allow students to search for their own study materials like Khan academy...a very difficult area to judge in my opinion, especially since many people disagree with my definition of cheating (getting or using something not every else can) because hiring private tutoring is considered alright.

You're still downloading them illegally, so it would still be a problem. I'd be more curious as to how obtaining a teacher's copy of the book legally, through a site like amazon or eBay, would be taken. Imo, if the syllabus doesn't say that a student can't have a professors copy and it's not in a school's honor code, technically the student didn't do anything wrong. They just bought supplemental study material, which pretty much everyone does in med school. I'd be interested to hear what the adcoms would think about that situation.



Totally depends on the school. I haven't taken a test on scantron since my sophomore year of college. Test format isn't a bad question to ask about on interviews though, I'm surprised I don't get asked about it more...

I'm fairly certain it's impossible to legally acquire the teacher's editions as a student. They say stuff like "not for commercial sales" or "for teacher/professor use only" and certainly say no resales or copying. But I agree the issue of illegal downloading is separate from cheating IA, just like illegal movies or music downloads. So the question is whether a student who came to possess the teacher's soln guide by an unknown means can be called a cheater for it.

 

[efle]

This really should be emphasized.

The accusation of domestic violence alone has very serious repercussions, even if it's validity ends being destroyed later on. Avoid any possibility or situation where the accusation can be made. And no matter how bad it is, realize the whole "they initiated the violence" defense isn't the way you want to go.

How can you possibly avoid this? Never let yourself ever be alone with a member of the opposite sex? You might as well also say "never let yourself be accused of sexual assault" but there's really nothing you can do about that.

 

[NotASerialKiller]

How can you possibly avoid this? Never let yourself ever be alone with a member of the opposite sex? You might as well also say "never let yourself be accused of sexual assault" but there's really nothing you can do about that.

Yeah I'm not really sure what this could mean. It sounds like advice you'd give to a guy who's tempted to hit his wife. Domestic violence isn't assault against a member of the opposite sex, it's assault/abuse within your household or family. The only thing you can do to not "put yourself in that position" is to not have a family. Other than that... don't abuse your loved ones? Not really something that has to be emphasized for pre-meds any more than not starting fires.

 

[efle]

Yeah I'm not really sure what this could mean. It sounds like advice you'd give to a guy who's tempted to hit his wife. Domestic violence isn't assault against a member of the opposite sex, it's assault/abuse within your household or family. The only thing you can do to not "put yourself in that position" is to not have a family. Other than that... don't abuse your loved ones? Not really something that has to be emphasized for pre-meds any more than not starting fires.

Yeah I assumed for our purposes its about an SO since few people have kids. But this is really all in reference to a recent thread where a guy had domestic violence down on his record after smashing a door or wall if I recall

 

[NotASerialKiller]

Yeah I assumed for our purposes its about an SO since few people have kids. But this is really all in reference to a recent thread where a guy had domestic violence down on his record after smashing a door or wall if I recall

Ah I see. I guess some people were sympathic with that story, but if you're scaring your SO enough for them to file charges that's not poor judgement in putting yourself in a certain position, it's poor judgement in scaring someone with your violence. Even if there's more stigma attached to certain offences, you can't say that guy was a victim of having a minor slip-up affect his career. You can be kept out of med school for offences that most people would care much less about their doctor having committed.

 

[DokterMom]

How can you possibly avoid this? Never let yourself ever be alone with a member of the opposite sex? You might as well also say "never let yourself be accused of sexual assault" but there's really nothing you can do about that.

Actually it's not that hard -- It falls under the general guideline of "Don't date crazy people". You know how some people are just plain Drama Queens? (I use this as a unisex term, having known as many male as female) Well Drama Queens must be handled with caution. They fly off the handle when things don't go their way, make wild accusations against others (maybe not you this time, but what about next time?) jump to conclusions, strike back first and always seem to think other people are doing things to them / talking about them, etc. when really most other people are giving them no thought whatsoever. They can be lively and charming in social situations, but these folks can be Trouble with a capital T. You should be able to recognize them by now, or at least, suspect. They're extreme, spontaneous, uninhibited, fun -- but not careful, moderate, prudent.

Drama Queens are dangerous and need to be kept as some distance. You can enjoy their company, but don't put yourself in compromising situations with them, because those people tend to incite explosions.

That's how you avoid these --

 

[GrapesofRath]

How can you possibly avoid this? Never let yourself ever be alone with a member of the opposite sex? You might as well also say "never let yourself be accused of sexual assault" but there's really nothing you can do about that.

If you would prefer the phrase "avoid situations as to minimize your odds" then go ahead and insert that for yourself. I'll leave the needless nitpicking to you.

There are situations where a) we can let our emotions get the best of us and do something incredibly stupid and shortsighted at the time b) where conflict arises and where we put ourselves in situations where there is an increased chance of regrettable things happening and where accusations we don't feel are valid are charged upon as that are more likely to occur in such conflict. The whole point is to do everything you can to avoid such situations. Really this whole thing in some way is related to a prior thread about a women initiating violence and doing really nasty things and the guy with one small in the moment physical response putting himself in hot water and ruining his medical aspirations. That one response is all it takes, regardless of how disgusting what the other person might be doing to you that caused that response.

 

[efle]

If you would prefer the phrase "avoid situations as to minimize your odds" then go ahead and insert that for yourself. I'll leave the needless nitpicking to you.

There are situations where a) we can let our emotions get the best of us and do something incredibly stupid and shortsighted at the time b) where conflict arises and where we put ourselves in situations where there is an increased chance of regrettable things happening and where accusations we don't feel are valid are charged upon as that are more likely to occur in such conflict. The whole point is to do everything you can to avoid such situations. Really this whole thing in some way is related to a prior thread about a women initiating violence and doing really nasty things and the guy with one small in the moment physical response putting himself in hot water and ruining his medical aspirations. That one response is all it takes, regardless of how disgusting what the other person might be doing to you that caused that response.

I applaud you if you're able to predict so well in advance. I doubt most cases are preceeded by red flags though, but rather start as a normal night at your SOs or party etc

 

[GrapesofRath]

I applaud you if you're able to predict so well in advance. I doubt most cases are preceeded by red flags though, but rather start as a normal night at your SOs or party etc

You've missed the point but there's no benefit in continuing this discussion. Bottom line 1) be careful about situations involving domestic abuse and be aware of them 2) be careful with the people you associate with. We'll just leave it at that.

 

[familyaerospace]

Who uses scantron in college?

I used it in college, heck I just literally used one today.

 

[efle]

You've missed the point but there's no benefit in continuing this discussion. Bottom line 1) be careful about situations involving domestic abuse and be aware of them 2) be careful with the people you associate with. We'll just leave it at that.

I don't think I've missed the point. Your whole argument was to avoid the situations likely to cause lapses in judgement. I'm pointing out that you cant have such a rule to do this as they arise out of the blue in a normal day. If I go to use my girlfriends phone and see she has been texting nudes to my room mate, I'm suddenly in the middle of a risky situation that I could not reasonably have avoided. But sure let's end the discussion.

 

[maxwell_edison]

Some advice I can offer from seeing all these posts: If any stuff happens past a Civil traffic Infraction (speeding ticket, etc for basically anywhere but ohio. Just do traffic school and pay up. Look at it as a "performance award") or a parking ticket, shut up, don't sign anything (besides a ticket, which is a promise to appear), don't consent to anything (searches, etc), and hire a lawyer. Your school may even provide free or reduced cost legal services.

You want a lawyer in any legal situation, regardless of what anyone(but your attorney) tells you, such as "we can just sort this out", "we'll go easy on you", or that "an IA is not in the scope of a lawyer." I can't believe some of the things people have agreed to or ignored in these threads, which has totally screwed them, and limited future options.

Talk to a lawyer, and probably don't ask SDN for advice on these topics. Too much noise and terrible advice to sort through with these, like the people telling the student who was cleared ("Not Responsible") of having a lighter in his room to report an IA, when LizzyM said not to.

 

[Lannister]

I remember reading about a professor that did that specifically so that he could catch students using the BS answer he had posted lol.

I had a professor who let us use our laptops for exams, but he would incorrectly answer Yahoo Answers questions and write incorrect information on Wikipedia the night before the exam.

 

[Cotterpin]

Actually it's not that hard -- It falls under the general guideline of "Don't date crazy people". You know how some people are just plain Drama Queens? (I use this as a unisex term, having known as many male as female) Well Drama Queens must be handled with caution. They fly off the handle when things don't go their way, make wild accusations against others (maybe not you this time, but what about next time?) jump to conclusions, strike back first and always seem to think other people are doing things to them / talking about them, etc. when really most other people are giving them no thought whatsoever. They can be lively and charming in social situations, but these folks can be Trouble with a capital T. You should be able to recognize them by now, or at least, suspect. They're extreme, spontaneous, uninhibited, fun -- but not careful, moderate, prudent.

Drama Queens are dangerous and need to be kept as some distance. You can enjoy their company, but don't put yourself in compromising situations with them, because those people tend to incite explosions.

That's how you avoid these --

Also known as Histrionic Personality Disorder.

 

[DokterMom]

Also known as Histrionic Personality Disorder.

We could probably extend this to include all of the major personality disorders -- Personality disordered people can suck you into the vortex with them.

 

[Meeehai]

My god, what is with kids and their fake IDs nowadays. What happened to good old fashioned finding someone over the age of 21 to buy you booze.

Yeah but you need a fake to get in da club.

 

[Lawpy]

DUIs are hardly "mainstream." Where I live they are a very serious offense and land you some severe penalties, so I have known exactly zero people to acquire the notorious charge in college that I was close with. It's like, thousands of dollars in fines, a misdemeanor, and a 90 day license suspension for a first time offense.

Don't drink and drive, and if you're the kind of person that chances it, buy a reliable breathalyzer to take the chance out if the equation.

I suppose I read some strange threads in Allo and Residency Forums mentioning articles of surgeons carrying out surgeries while drunk, or residents driving under the influence. I realize that there are very stringent deterrents against DUIs and alcohol-related crimes that the convicted party will be expelled and barred from medicine. Yet, what is worrying is that few students/doctors will still engage in such activities.

Then again, such cases are rare, since the punishment is rightfully severe.

 

[Mad Jack]

I suppose I read some strange threads in Allo and Residency Forums mentioning articles of surgeons carrying out surgeries while drunk, or residents driving under the influence. I realize that there are very stringent deterrents against DUIs and alcohol-related crimes that the convicted party will be expelled and barred from medicine. Yet, what is worrying is that few students/doctors will still engage in such activities.

Then again, such cases are rare, since the punishment is rightfully severe.

Any time we find a drunk staff member in the hospital, they get their ass reported. Let's just say there haven't been many over the year. You do hear of the occasional "his complication rates were really high but we never really thought much of it" cases, but not often, and certainly not where I worked.

 

[Spinach Dip]

How can you possibly avoid this? Never let yourself ever be alone with a member of the opposite sex? You might as well also say "never let yourself be accused of sexual assault" but there's really nothing you can do about that.

Don't act out something from 50 Shades of Grey. That seems like a good start.

 

[Spinach Dip]

I had a professor who let us use our laptops for exams, but he would incorrectly answer Yahoo Answers questions and write incorrect information on Wikipedia the night before the exam.

Vandalizing wikipedia is not exactly a moral thing to do either.

So we are going to slip into immorality in an effort to catch others who are behaving immoral themselves? Sounds like a delicious double standard.