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**What Schools Should I Apply To? / What Are My Chances?** (Read if this is you)

Discussion in 'Pre-Dental' started by somethinpositiv, Jun 7, 2009.

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  1. somethinpositiv

    somethinpositiv Member

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    If you are wondering "What Schools Should I Apply To?" or "What Are My Chances?" you've come to the right place!

    There's no reason to have a ton of individual threads about this in the forum, and since we don't have a subforum for this, everyone, you just need to educate yourselves with the wealth of information that is already out there. If you're on these boards, you're an intelligent person; this stuff isn't rocket science, you can figure it out.

    Start by going to www.PreDents.com, and go to Ranking > Sort Schools By > xxxxx
    You can arrange them by GPA, DAT, or more importantly, % Out-of-State students; the higher the better. If the Out-of-State (OOS) percentage is lower than 30%, generally it would be a waste to apply to those places (note that NYU, Western, and Midwestern are mistakenly 0%, because there is no current data for those schools; these schools are OOS friendly. Kentucky may be the exception to the 30% rule). Some percentages can be deceiving though: Washington's OOS and OHSU's OOS is almost entirely WICHE, UMKC's OOS is almost entirely Kansas residents, Minnesota's OOS is entirely regional and Wisconsin residents, UMDNJ's and WVU's OOS numbers are deceptively high, Colorado's OOS is entirely regional, Tennessee's OOS is mostly Arkansas residents, and Alabama's OOS is entirely Georgia and regional residents. Also, unless you are URM (African-American, Latino/a, Native American), ignore all data for Howard and Meharry, although Howard does accept a good number of Asians.

    Obviously, if you have an In-State public school (and your scores are within a reasonable range), apply there. However, eliminating OOS unfriendly state schools (as well as Howard/Meharry), you end up with the following schools to choose from (number of OOS seats in parenthesis, based on 2009 ADEA figures):

    1. NYU (168)
    2. Tufts (121+52, they are gradually adding 52 additional seats by 2011 as part of the Vertical Expansion Initiative.)
    3. Temple (98)
    4. Boston University (91)
    5. Midwestern AZ(82)
    6. Creighton (79)
    7. Louisville (76, they added 35 more OOS seats this year)
    8. Pittsburgh (72)
    9. Western (64 total)
    10. Maryland (57)
    11. USC (55)
    12. Case Western (50)
    13. Buffalo (48)
    14. Virginia Commonwealth (45)
    15. Nova (43)
    16. Michigan (42)
    17. Marquette (40)
    18. Indiana (30)
    19. Detroit Mercy (27)
    20. Midwestern IL(Unknown)

    21. UConn (19, Has very few seats, and tends to accept OOS students with higher stats than their average would indicate)
    22. Kentucky (17, I consider this school to be OOS friendly based on anecdotal evidence. I will remove it if that evidence is refuted.)
    23. UNLV (33, This is a school that will give you a chance OOS only if you apply early.)
    24. ASDOH (46, Do you have hundreds of hours of community service and volunteering? If so, you should apply here.)
    25. Loma Linda (44, Are you heavily religiously inclined? More specifically, are you of the Seventh-day Adventist Church? They will ask you about it in the secondary application, and it is very difficult to get in if you're not SDA.)

    The following schools have a DAT average of 21 or higher, thus if you have a 19 DAT forget it, if you have a 20 DAT you perhaps have an outside chance of getting in, and if you have 21+ DAT, these schools might be for you. (UCLA, UW, and Stony Brook are in this category but were eliminated for not being OOS Friendly).

    26. Penn (48)
    27. University of Pacific (46)
    28. Columbia (44)
    29. Harvard (35)
    30. UCSF (25)

    I have no information about the new or proposed dental schools of Eastern Carolina University, University of New England in Maine, the University of Southern Nevada in Utah, and the University of Utah. I would assume that being new schools with no reputation and no accreditation that these may be less competitive schools to get into, so if your GPA and DAT is on the lower side these are definitely schools to research and consider. I would also assume that the Utah schools would have a strong preference for LDS students, but I may be wrong. If anyone has any information on these schools, especially if they accept mainly in-state or are private institutions, feel free to post them.

    So essentially, if you do not have an in-state public school and are not URM, you have these 30 schools to choose from when applying, 30 out of 58 total schools. If you're too lazy to read the rest of the guide in detail, and you have average or reasonably competitive stats, you could apply to the first 20-23 schools I listed as well as your state schools and you might be alright, though I recommend against this...

    The next thing you want to do is to read Doc Toothache's 2010 Ranking of DAT/Other Selection Criteria by US DS (which is more accurate than PreDents.com): http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t= 657139

    (This is last year's guide from Doc Toothache) Doc Toothache's 09 Ranking of Dental Schools Based on DAT/GPA : http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=602109

    Also, make sure you check out Fodog's Every Statistic About Every Dental School, a guide based on the figures from the 2010 ADEA Guide To Dental Schools and the 2008-2009 Survey of Dental Education, compiled by Fodog (02-08-2010). It's amazing, very useful, I highly recommend using it: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=700459

    Here's the working link for the ADA Survey of Dental Education: Tuition, Admission, and Attrition (link provided by peanutb123) ADA Survey of Dental Education: Tuition, Admission, and Attrition

    Based on your GPA/DAT, choose schools that fit your range of scores. If you're not sure if you are competitive, you could use the modified UTHSCSA formula by plugging your numbers into: Science GPA x ([DAT AA/30]x4 + Overall GPA, and compare your values with the values in Doc Toothaches chart for UTHSCSA formula. For example, if you had a 3.5 GPA, 3.4 Science GPA, and 19 AA, you would calculate: 3.4 x ([19/30]x4 + 3.5 = 12.11, which is your UTHSCSA value, and says that you are competitive for schools that are below this value (if these are your scores, there are 15 schools within your range, not including Howard-Meharry-Puerto Rico, and prior to eliminating public schools which you are out-of-state). The formula does neglect the PAT score (check PreDents for that), and does not take into account individual sections (which many schools have a cut-off of 17 for each individual section). The formula itself has no real validity or meaning, but it is a tool to help you choose schools that are within your range. Generally, you want to apply to schools that have DAT averages of less than 1 point over your DAT, and at most 0.2 GPA points from your overall GPA and Science GPA (not a hard and set rule, just some parameters to consider).

    [The following charts were compiled by Doc Toothache] For DAT/GPA, you can also look at the DAT-GPA trends and Range of DAT scores. Also, different schools value different DAT/GPA/other selection criteria. In general, schools tend to look the most heavily for AA/TS/RC/scienceGPA/overallGPA/Interview, and not so much on QR & non-scienceGPA, with half the schools looking specifically for high PAT and good LORs. If your undergrad GPA is low, consider an SMP (Special Masters Program), a 1 year Masters with no thesis (Barry University in Miami offers an SMP, there are others.. you can often use your DAT to apply in lieu of a GRE), and many schools favor an applicant with a Masters Degree. If you are wondering how much your Race plays into particular schools (as well as choice of Major and Gender), check out these charts on the Affirmative Action Myth and Minority Acceptance in Dental Schools. As you can see, some schools are almost all white (06 Data: Louisville-85%, Marquette-85%, Indiana-84%, Buffalo-80%, Pitt-76%), and some schools accept very few Asians (06 Data: UConn: 1/211 Asian applicants accepted, Marquette:1/179 Asian applicants accepted, Louisville:1/151 Asian applicants accepted). If you're wondering about how much Age plays a factor, over 200 older "Non-Traditional" applicants were accepted last year. Also, the number of Shadowing Hours Required by Schools is different. In general, you want at least 30 Hours, with 100 Hours being ideal. Applying early is so important. Take a look at the Acceptances with Pre and Post Dec. Interviews 2009.

    Another thing to consider is the course requirements (Pre-Reqs). Some schools require 1 year of English, others, 1 semester. Some schools require 1 year of Calculus, others, 1 semester. Statistics, Psychology, Sociology, Biochemistry, Organic Chemistry II, Microbiology, Physiology, and Anatomy are also courses that some schools may require and others may not; check the school's websites or consult the ADEA 2010 Official Guide to Dental Schools for this information. If you are applying as a college Junior, you may be able to take these school-specific required courses during your second semester Senior year, after finding out what school you are going to after December 1st (hopefully). As long as you finish these school-specific required courses before attending that dental school, you'll be fine. Also, keep in mind that some schools DO NOT accept Pre-Reqs from Community College, such as Tufts, NYU, BU, and Temple. In fact, Tufts won't accept any CC credits, so you can effectively remove it from your list if you went to CC before you went to a 4-year institution.

    So at this point you know which schools are Out-of-State friendly, know which schools match your stats and would give you the maximum chance at acceptance, and know which schools you can't apply to because of school-specific required courses. Your list still might be over 20 schools at this point, and you want to narrow it down more. Consider things like: Location (Urban, Suburban, Rural), Region (Northeast, South, West, Midwest), Cost (Buffalo is one of the best values), Facilities (Maryland and Detroit-Mercy have some of the best facilities), Overall Reputation (do you care if it's an Ivy League or UC?), Clinical Reputation for producing the best General Dentists (GPs) (UoP, Temple, Tufts, Detroit-Mercy, UIC), Best Chances to SPECIALIZE(Harvard, Columbia, UPenn, UCLA, UCSF, Stony Brook), class size (NYU, Tufts, and USC have the largest classes), PBL curriculum (USC, Indiana, Case, Harvard, soon-to-be UIC), possible religious undertones (Loma Linda, Marquette, Creighton), racial diversity (Midwestern AZ, Marquette, and Louisville are known for their lack thereof), research opportunities (UConn, Michigan, Harvard, UPenn, Columbia, Maryland, Pittsburgh, UCSF), safety of the area (Temple, Detroit, Case), proximity to home and family, ect. ect… Ultimately it is up to you to decide what factors are most important, and to choose your schools based on that.

    You can disregard the most important consideration, Cost, if you are getting the scholarship for National Health Service Corps (NHSC) or the US Military's Health Professions Scholarship Program (HPSP). The full scholarship pays for all of your tuition and living expenses, and for the HPSP, gives you a $1,900 monthly stipend and a $20,000 signing bonus as well. Each requires a pay-back period of 4 years if you take the full scholarship, meaning that you will serve as a military dentist for 4 years with HPSP, or serving a high-need area such as a prison or Indian reservation with NHSC. For the military HPSP, you can join Army, Navy, or Air Force, with the Air Force being the most competitive (Read the following guide for the HPSP). If you have a 3.5 GPA and 20 DAT, you automatically qualify if there are still scholarships available (apply early), but if your scores are lower you can still apply. The NHSC is competitive as well. These are especially popular options for those going to expensive private schools such as NYU, USC, Tufts, or Penn. Another option, if you like laboratory research, is a fully funded 7 or 8 year DMD/PhD program, which will pay for some or all of your dental school tuition, as well as provide a stipend. I do not have a list of these programs, but I do know of 7-year programs at UConn and Michigan. They are highly competitive; my friend who got into the UConn program had a 21 AA, 22 TS, and over a 4.0 GPA.

    One more thing to consider about Cost is a repayment plan called Income Based Repayment. President Obama passed this into law in 2009, and it is a fairly new repayment option. Essentially, you commit to paying the federal government 15% of your salary for 25 years, and after 25 years you pay the taxes on the remaining balance and the rest will be absolved. This is a great deal for those who are going to an expensive private school like Tufts or NYU and if you don't plan on making over $200,000 per year (most of us won't). If you plan on owning and running a multi-million dollar chain of practices, obviously 15% is not a good deal for you. Also, starting next year I believe (correct me if I'm wrong), the incoming class of dental students will only have to pay back 10% of income earned after 20 years, an even better deal! So while I used to be worried about the size of my Tufts loans, I am not anymore because of IBR. Makes me feel better about choosing an expensive private school over my state school haha.


    For the Canadian/International applicant, your choice of schools is very limited. For the most part, you will bank on the large expensive private schools (or should I say, they will bank on you, zing!). This list is not comprehensive, but to my knowledge, the schools that are Canadian applicant friendly are: NYU, Tufts, BU, USC, UoP, Temple, Buffalo, Detroit Mercy, Pitt, Penn, Case, Nova, Columbia, Indiana, Maryland, Minnesota, Michigan, and Midwestern AZ (no information on the new schools Western and Midwestern IL is available). If you are a Canadian applicant, I'd recommend further investigation into these particular institutions. Also, if you have only taken the Canadian DAT, check with each school individually to see which schools will only accept the American DAT.

    Thanks to Doc Toothache and PDizzle for compiling so much information for the benefit of dental school applicants on SDN. Let me know (by PM) if any of this information is outdated and I will update it.

    Good luck this cycle everyone!

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    When I get a chance I'll add a DAT section, to complete my magnum opus :p
    [under construction...]


    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    After You Get Interviews:

    Make sure you read Burton117's ***Official: Can you answer these questions about your dental school?*** thread, it provides some deeper insight on the inner workings of each school.

    Also, before your interview you ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO READ SDN INTERVIEW FEEDBACK!!!
    It presents the most common interview questions from the schools you are interviewing at to help you prepare, and also presents some useful data.
    New SDN Interview Feedback: http://www.studentdoctor.net/schools/
    Old SDN Interview Feedback: http://more.studentdoctor.net/schoollist.php?type=3


    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Disclaimer: I am not, nor do I claim to be, an expert on dental school admissions. Take any advice you hear, from anyone, with a grain of salt. Believe none of what you hear and half of what you see. Ultimately, you'll have to trust your instincts ;)
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2011
  2. Munchy

    Munchy

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    wow this is amazing.
    Thank you so much for putting in your time for the benefit of others.

    Just 1 question though. Do you use GPA with or without to calculate the score?
  3. ak47

    ak47 flossy flossy

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    very helpful post!

    somethingpositive, i see you're an IL resident. any particular reason you are going to tufts?! (particularly over UIC). just curious
  4. somethinpositiv

    somethinpositiv Member

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    I believe that with +'s/-'s is the more relevant GPA.
  5. somethinpositiv

    somethinpositiv Member

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    When I interviewed, I got a good vibe at Tufts, from the city and from the school. Students seem happy and faculty is helpful. Dean Mark Gonthier really sold the school well during the interview, and I like the full disclosure policy that Tufts has when it presented us with the giant booklet filled with every number and statistic that you would ever want to know about the school. The vertical expansion impressed me, and they are renovating and updating all of their equipment, and that it will be done before I need to use those new facilities. I liked the curriculum and that it's not PBL (which UIC is adopting), and the fact that it has such a large class size, which means more classmates to collaborate with, as well as a larger alumni network when looking for an Associate position after graduation. The large class could be a detriment if I was looking to specialize, since there's more competition, but I have no interest in doing anything other than GP. I also love the city of Boston, that you can walk from one end to the other, and that there are so many universities and young professionals in the city. I liked that it is in Chinatown, and that I'll be treating patients that are diverse, some whom will speak Chinese. For all of these Pros, sure, I'll take a paycut.

    Cons? Well, there's the obvious one, COST lol. The cost difference is staggering, over $100K difference on paper, over $200K difference in reality (after interest). I used a student loan calculator and found that going to Tufts means paying $3,900 in loan payments per month for 15 years, as opposed to going to UIC and paying $3,300 per month for 10 years. Yeah, it's a huge difference, one that wouldn't be worth it for 99% of people (if I saw someone in the same position, I'd tell them to go to UIC). Years later, I may regret taking on so much debt and going to Tufts over UIC, but for me, right now I believe I made the right decision. Other cons are that you take the boards after 2 years instead of after 1 year at UIC; I'd rather just get it over and done with early. Also, away from family and friends (one of my best friends is going to UIC Dental), but I also have family in the Northeast and will make new friends quickly, while maintaining my old friendships in Chicago.

    If you are an IL Resident, and get into UIC and Tufts (or any other school), go to UIC, that is my advice for you. However, for me, Tufts is the right choice. :thumbup:
    pinop and sampu88 like this.
  6. Emmie

    Emmie

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    Few people mention MidWestern is lack of racial diversity, anyone knows how many non-white do they usually take?
  7. Oracle DMD

    Oracle DMD Chuck NOracle DMD Moderator Emeritus

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    there is no extrodinary lack of diversity at Midwestern. there are as many URM's at MWU as the average around the country which is lower than it should be. somethinpositive is still wants to carry on this old discussion so here we go.
  8. shah88

    shah88

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    I believe Detroit Mercy is a private school. So, they wouldn't differentiate between in-state and out-of-state. :)

    Cheers.
  9. somethinpositiv

    somethinpositiv Member

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    I've never visited Midwestern, that is just "the word on the street", the "street" being SDN, therefore on these boards, that's how Midwestern is known. Oracle attends Midwestern, so he very well may be right. If you are URM or Asian, you should still apply to Midwestern if it is within your range of scores. If there is a dearth of minority presence at any school, it may not be because that school is not accepting minorities, but more to do with the fact that if a school is not currently racially diverse, minorities choose to go to other schools instead. It's a vicious cycle. Again, that's just a theory; I want to give schools the benefit of the doubt, and believe that they're not actually racist. For Midwestern, you can see for yourself at the interview whether it is true or not, if you are lucky enough to get an interview that is.
  10. somethinpositiv

    somethinpositiv Member

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    Not entirely true. Even private schools have the right to differentiate between in-state and out-of-state, if they so choose. Some schools may not though, others will give some preference to in-state, others still will save a certain number of seats for in-state residents. For example, Marquette, a private school, reserves 50% of its seats for in-state, and 50% for out-of-state. On the other hand, sometimes public schools will give some preference for out-of-staters. Pittsburgh does a similar thing to Marquette and essentially reserves half of its seats for out-of-state, even though it is a "state-related" public institution, a Pennsylvania concept that Temple shares. Temple has even more from out-of-state, with over 2/3 coming from outside Pennsylvania, and it's a public school!

    So yeah, you have to look at each individual school, there are no hard-and-set rules about all publics not taking from out-of-state, or all privates not having in-state preference.
  11. Gokes

    Gokes

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    My in state schools are UCSF and UCLA. I have a lower gpa and average scores. Probably not very feasible for me even with a lot of dental experience and working on an MPH, right?
  12. somethinpositiv

    somethinpositiv Member

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    Well, if you have low GPA and average scores, you will likely have a hard time getting into your state school, regardless of your state of residence. This is because a lot of state schools are cheaper, thus more students want to go there, and the competition is stiffer (even though it is mainly in-state competition). I know a lot of people at UIC who turned down Penn, Columbia, Harvard, ect. because of the pricetag; this is the same reason why people turn down those schools to go to Buffalo, and why Buffalo's admissions standards are rising so fast. You're right though, it is especially hard in Cali because UCLA and UCSF have such high standards, but also consider that the standards for out-of-state students to get in those schools are even tougher. If your scores are average or below average, than your best chance is to get into "average" schools in terms of competitiveness, such as large private schools. In general though, you should always apply to your state public schools, unless your scores are really far off. In this guide I've been a proponent of applying to schools that are within your range, and if you want to add a couple dream schools in UCLA and UCSF, go for it. And if you have a low GPA and get a high GPA for your Masters program, that would certainly help your candidacy.
  13. RedXiii

    RedXiii

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    Thanks for this info. Its quite useful!
  14. Gokes

    Gokes

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    Great thanks for the help!
  15. hl11

    hl11

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    someone should make this the sticky note.
  16. bjhath

    bjhath

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    Great thread. very thorough research and sound advice.

    This gets a sticky vote from me.
  17. VTEC4ME

    VTEC4ME

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    so Meharry really doesnt like OOS applicants????
  18. somethinpositiv

    somethinpositiv Member

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    Sorry if I wasn't clear about this, I removed Meharry and Howard from the list because they primarily accept URM applicants, not because they don't like OOS applicants. If you are URM and OOS, that would be a school for you to consider.
  19. aadsashoops

    aadsashoops Univ. at Buffalo SDM 2013

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  20. Sauce

    Sauce

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    Based on your GPA/DAT, choose schools that fit your range of scores. If you're not sure if you are competitive, you could use the modified UTHSCSA formula by plugging your numbers into: Science GPA x ([DAT AA/30]x4 + Overall GPA, and compare your values with the values in Doc Toothaches chart for UTHSCSA formula. For example, if you had a 3.5 GPA, 3.4 Science GPA, and 19 AA, you would calculate: 3.4 x ([19/30]x4 + 3.5 = 12.11, which is your UTHSCSA value, and says that you are competitive for schools that are below this value (if these are your scores, there are 15 schools within your range, not including Howard-Meharry-Puerto Rico, and prior to eliminating public schools which you are out-of-state). The formula does neglect the PAT score (check PreDents for that), and does not take into account individual sections (which many schools have a cut-off of 17 for each individual section). The formula itself has no real validity or meaning, but it is a tool to help you choose schools that are within your range. Generally, you want to apply to schools that have DAT averages of less than 1 point over your DAT, and at most 0.2 GPA points from your overall GPA and Science GPA (not a hard and set rule, just some parameters to consider).

    How good of an indicator is this UTHSCSA value? Do any schools (other than Texas schools obviously) use it or anything like it when evaluating applicants.
  21. somethinpositiv

    somethinpositiv Member

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    Other schools don't actually use this. As I said, The formula itself has no real validity or meaning, but it is a tool to help you choose schools that are within your range. ;)
  22. jihyunjun12

    jihyunjun12

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    what is URM?
  23. Oracle DMD

    Oracle DMD Chuck NOracle DMD Moderator Emeritus

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    under represented minority (read: all minorities except sometimes asain)
  24. yuppers

    yuppers

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    can someone just sticky this thing.....
  25. beeho

    beeho I like candy

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    So I have 36 credits from a community college, but none of them were for prerequisites to dental school. Should that affect me negatively with a school such as Tufts or Boston?
  26. somethinpositiv

    somethinpositiv Member

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    Boston accepts CC credits for Electives, Tufts does not. From my understanding, that means that you should apply to BU but not Tufts. You could always call them and confirm this.

    http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=527335
  27. DrReo

    DrReo "Thread Necromancer"

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    Interesting you claim to have the authority to state such a statement.
    SamWynn likes this.
  28. DrReo

    DrReo "Thread Necromancer"

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    thumbs up
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2009
  29. somethinpositiv

    somethinpositiv Member

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    Am I not free to post my educated opinion, based on personal research? ;) though I am by no means the authority on anything, nowhere did I claim to be...

    If anything I have posted is incorrect, feel free to post and convince me that I am wrong, and I will make the appropriate changes to the main post. I don't want to mislead anyone with incorrect information. That said, I don't believe that I have posted anything that should be changed (prove me wrong :D).
  30. DrReo

    DrReo "Thread Necromancer"

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    "I'd recommend further investigation of these institutions" would be more appropriate.

    Also, with regards to the total amount of OOS seats at each individual schools, you should not what ones are private (although this is obvious) because the total of OOS does change year-to-year with those schools. Since they do not, typically, have a preference of a residency. If feel if people read this, they will, unfortunately, limit themselves to the selected schools. I know a few people who were selected in UF, MUSC, and some other state schools as OOS candidates. So, it is possible to be in the 5 to 10 that are allowed in as OOS students. Maybe we could add a "not-so-friendly" catagory for out of states. Noting that some instutions only accept with states they have agrements with. ADEA Official Guide to Dental School should become a required read when applying.
  31. somethinpositiv

    somethinpositiv Member

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    I changed this as per your suggestion.

    I did not note which are public and which are private because, as you said, this is obvious, but mostly because I created a list that includes public schools that do not discriminate against (or at least are more friendly towards) out-of-state applicants, thus any public/private designation is unnecessary in my opinion. Public institutions which are not particularly OOS friendly are left out.

    And I like your word choice of "should" when you have shown distain to my using the same word. Clearly you are the true authority here :thumbup:


    True, but I included the numbers from last year, the most relevant numbers for this years cycle of applicants.

    I know people that got into some of those OOS unfriendly schools as well. This may not be true in general, but for the people that I talked to, it was some combination of high DAT/GPA, URM status, and/or extraordinary accomplishments noted in their PS. Almost all schools have 2 or more accepted from OOS... competing with hundreds or thousands of applicants for 2 spots is not usually effective. Knowing which schools are OOS friendly or not is the key to applying intelligently.

    The point of this guide is to present the schools where people have the best chance at. This saves money, time, and possibly bruised egos lol. Many people apply thinking they have a good chance at a schools because their stats match up, only to be surprised and disappointed later when they realized that they really had little chance of acceptance because of OOS status. I have seen lists where people had a majority of their schools as public schools that are not OOS friendly, and if they are only applying to a limited number of schools, this severely decreases their overall chance of acceptance into any dental school that cycle.

    In no way do I discourage people from applying to their dream schools if they are OOS and have little chance, in fact, I did the same thing when I applied to UW (and was promptly rejected). One should be aware that those schools are not OOS friendly, however, and have maybe a few dream schools on their list at most. One should understand and be realistic about their chances at such schools.

    I believe this to be unnecessary. I strive to make the guide as concise as possible (though I've already failed at that, looking at how long it is :laugh:) so I don't want to clutter it with irrelevant information. If one was curious about it, that information can be garnered by an easy click to PreDents.com.

    I don't have the ADEA book, so if anyone wants to create such a list, I'd be happy to add it.
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2009
  32. archonsbk

    archonsbk

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    Thank you so much for this great information!!
  33. armorshell

    armorshell Moderator Emeritus

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  34. Kach1713

    Kach1713

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    Why is Kentucky the exception to the 30% rule and why does UMDNJ's OOS numbers concern you? Just wondering since I'm trying to make a list of the schools I want to apply to and I am a OOS resident. Thanks!
  35. somethinpositiv

    somethinpositiv Member

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    As I said in the original post, I consider Kentucky to be OOS friendly based on anecdotal evidence. I will remove it if that evidence is refuted. As a public school, they set aside a fair number of seats for OOS, but more importantly, they have comparable admissions standards for OOS and In-State. Many or most state schools only consider OOS students with stats that are much higher than their mean stats shown in the literature (prime examples being UNC and UW), which means that their admissions processes are inherently biased against OOS. Kentucky seems to be less biased against OOS than most public schools, though I will remove it if evidence of the contrary is shown.

    UMDNJ is
    a school I consider to not be OOS friendly based on anecdotal evidence, and I will remove it if that evidence is refuted. From the people I've talked to who have been at the UMDNJ interview, they were told "If you're not from New Jersey... good luck..." There are a fair number of OOS accepted to UMDNJ every year, but if you look at the demographics, they seem to almost always be from the surrounding area (NY, PA, Delaware). If you are from that area, UMDNJ might be a good choice. However, I made this guide without consideration for state and regional residence. If one were specifically from the Northeast, California, or Texas, there would be specific schools that those people should probably apply to.
  36. somethinpositiv

    somethinpositiv Member

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    no, thank Doc toothache and PDizzle for making the information available, I just made their contributions more accessible :)

    I won't be on these boards much, if anyone has any pressing questions or comments, feel free to send me a PM :thumbup:
  37. Eike

    Eike

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    I am still in high school, but i am strongly interested in becoming a dentist. I don't know if i should take advantage of a 6 year dental program or do all the other schooling and get a second degree?
  38. whawha

    whawha

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    What if I am e-submitting the application before I take the DAT?
  39. somethinpositiv

    somethinpositiv Member

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    I hope you're submitting and taking the DAT soon, it's almost August! *gasp*

    In my opinion, if you have a decent to strong GPA (3.5+), you can go ahead and e-submit first and take the DAT as soon as possible (as long as you're ready for it). If your GPA is low and you e-submit before taking the DAT, I doubt dental schools are going to be holding their breath waiting for your DAT scores, so you might consider e-submitting immediately after you've taken the DAT. That's just my opinion, if you do a forum search I'm sure you'll find threads on this topic with varying opinions.
  40. tonyzhou

    tonyzhou

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    dear somethinpositiv, can you give me some advice on which schools I should apply to, and particular strategies?

    Undergraduate GPA (sucked): O: 3.29, S: 3.39
    Graduate GPA (MBA) 3.89 (does it help?)
    DAT (May 09): AA 23, TS 22, PA 24
    Asian, Out-Of-State, Non-traditional(i.e. old)


    Thanks indeed,
    Tony
  41. TM0ney

    TM0ney

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    For schools that require certain courses that I have not yet taken, or that do not accept CC courses--would it be acceptable to apply and then take or retake those courses this Fall/Spring?

    What if I have already applied, but did not list those needed courses under "classes I plan to take?"

    Everyone's help is greatly appreciated! :thumbup:
  42. CrazyTeeth

    CrazyTeeth

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    First of all, Thank you for taking the time to write this post! It's very helpful!! With that said, I was wondering how a master's program GPA gets counted in these schools?
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2009
  43. somethinpositiv

    somethinpositiv Member

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    I don't know the answers to these questions, you should post this as a new thread in the forum, rather than a reply to this thread.

    Normally, you would list the classes that you plan to take in your AADSAS and include all the courses that the schools you are applying to require, and you should be ready to take those courses.

    Let's create a hypothetical scenario where you applied to Harvard, Howard, and Michigan. Harvard needs Calc 2, Howard needs Anatomy, and Michigan need Sociology. Lets say you would prefer not to take those three courses but would do it if necessary. You get an acceptance from Michigan and a rejection from Howard and Harvard by December 1st. Now you can notify your schools that you are revising the courses you plan to take, and that you will take Sociology but not Anatomy & Calc 2 during the Spring before matriculation. Let's create a different scenario where you were waitlisted at these three schools on Dec. 1st. Now you should take all three of those courses, just in case you get into one of those schools. If you were not prepared to take a certain course, you shouldn't have applied there in the first place.

    If you hadn't listed the necessary courses under the courses you plan to take, the schools that require specific courses might assume that you are not that interested in their school, or that you didn't do your research. I don't know the best course of action in this situation, perhaps write a letter to the school with a particular requirement stating that you will take the necessary pre-req specific to that school in Spring semester, before matriculation.
  44. somethinpositiv

    somethinpositiv Member

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    For dental schools, a Masters GPA cannot replace a poor Undergrad GPA, these two are looked at separately.

    In my opinion, a Masters should be considered if you have a decent DAT (19+) but a low GPA (under 3.3). If you do well in your Masters (3.8-4.0), it shows that you are ready for graduate-level science courses despite your poor undergraduate record. If your undergrad GPA is decent, you should instead focus on improving your DAT score, if it needs improvement.
  45. sjs887

    sjs887

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    Hey guys,
    After looking at all the gpa stats...i'm considering applying to BU and a few other dental schools around that area. But dental school is still something I need advice about. I just graduated from undergrad and my gpa is a 3.18 and my science gpa is around a 3.1 (i have to doublecheck that). Im in a masters program right now and it will take me till next august most likely before i'm done. I was planning on doing a volunteer program abroad dealing with dentistry, start shadowing probably early next year, and taking the DATs in december.
    What do you think my real chances are? (assuming i do well in my masters classes and do well on the DATs) If there are people who are/were in my situation and have some info of how it was for them that would be great!
    Also does anyone know if you can only apply for schools during a second semester? As in..if i finish everything by the end on next year...are there schools that take in freshman starting jan of 2011?
  46. dentistlawyer

    dentistlawyer

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    I applied to dental school in 1998 and was denied. I then applied to law school and attended Creighton University Law graduating in 2004 (lower half of class) and have been practicing law ever since. I also started a roofing business and have been running it since. I am now trying to apply to dental school and have an undergrad GPA of 2.7 (overall) and a 2.1 (science) GPA. I am considering a post-bac program to get my GPA up. Any chance I could get in with a high DAT score and no post-bac program? Any post-bac programs that I can get into this year? Any other advice is greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance for your time.
  47. Smilemoncheri

    Smilemoncheri

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    Great INFO!! THANKS for your efforts in posting all this! :) I am what you called a NON-Traditional applicant, I am older than the average applicant, Obtained a BS in 1998, and just completed a Master's degree in 2008. I thought of Dentistry as a young undergrad, but never was serious enough to go ahead and apply. My main reason for not pursuing it then was that I just wanted to take a break, I was too burned out with a double science major (microbiology & chemistry), my last yr was also not a good one. GPA did suffer a bit during that time also. Now I have returned to this idea of applying to dental school just this past yr after working on a dental research project. I realized then that Dentistry is something I want to do as a profession and that it's now or never!

    So it's great to find such a network of Pre-Dental students from different backgrounds sharing there experiences and information on Dental School admissions, applications and DAT. Believe me your post is a great service to many like myself who are seeking guidance!! Thanks again! :thumbup:
  48. DDSDan93

    DDSDan93 Aspiring Dentist.

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    This is kind of the best thread ever.
  49. Kahr

    Kahr audi 5000 Moderator Emeritus Lifetime Donor

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    For OOS unfriendly schools, does applying from a state that has no dental school change how "friendly/unfriendly" they are for that applicant, such as an applicant from Hawaii applying to UW or UCLA?
  50. somethinpositiv

    somethinpositiv Member

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    Many states that do not have a dental school have agreements with specific public schools in nearby states. Hawaii is part of WICHE, and certain schools have a set number of seats reserved for WICHE students, Colorado is one of them, I believe UW is too. UCLA probably would not be a great choice for that applicant from Hawaii, as they do not have preference for WICHE students and are almost exclusively In-State students. Keep in mind that even though there are seats at some schools reserved for WICHE, those are usually very few seats (less than 10) and you are still at a huge disadvantage to people who are In-State at those schools. Other (non-wiche) states such as Arkansas also have agreements with other states, such as with LSU and UMKC.

    I created this guide to be general for all applicants, not to be specific for WICHE or Arkansas or California or whatever other states' applicants, that is up to you to do your own research ;)

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