What to do when your Carib MD friend bashes DO school

[user3]

Because those of us who understand what DO schools really are, are not representative of the general premed population. The majority of premeds are not educated on osteopathic medicine. They don't equate DO as a respectable version of being a physician due to hearsay. There are still many others who's NEVER heard of DOs. While awareness is increasing, we still have a lot of ways to go.

If I was president of AOA, I would really push my DO schools to do presentations at colleges, to have more open houses and really educate people. We are still too obscure in the eyes of applicants. Caribbean schools are 10x more popular because they drown us in advertisements and marketing.

My parents laugh at me when I say this since they call me an optimistic dreamer, but I do want to get an MBA once I am an attending and my schedule allows. I do want to get into investments, open up a DO school one day and if necessary, I will advertise my life away. I'm not gonna wait till students come to me asking about ZombieCOM, I will go to them while their freshmen, sophomores, etc, and ensure premed advisors stay up to date with their information.

more people would be aware of DO's if there were more DO schools associated with large public universities. The fact that MD's nab places like UCF, UCR, and UTexas for their new schools while DO's open their new schools as freestanding or at tiny, no-name liberal arts colleges, makes the osteopathic medical profession look second class.

There are many layers to MD vs DO, but this is a major one. If all 30-some DO schools were affiliated with public universities that also hosted MD programs, I feel like the reputation of DO's would soar.

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[NurWollen]

Because those of us who understand what DO schools really are, are not representative of the general premed population. The majority of premeds are not educated on osteopathic medicine. They don't equate DO as a respectable version of being a physician due to hearsay. There are still many others who's NEVER heard of DOs. While awareness is increasing, we still have a lot of ways to go.

If I was president of AOA, I would really push my DO schools to do presentations at colleges, to have more open houses and really educate people. We are still too obscure in the eyes of applicants. Caribbean schools are 10x more popular because they drown us in advertisements and marketing.

My parents laugh at me when I say this since they call me an optimistic dreamer, but I do want to get an MBA once I am an attending and my schedule allows. I do want to get into investments, open up a DO school one day and if necessary, I will advertise my life away. I'm not gonna wait till students come to me asking about ZombieCOM, I will go to them while their freshmen, sophomores, etc, and ensure premed advisors stay up to date with their information.

So true!

 

[BestDoctorEver]

....

 

[CSqueed]

more people would be aware of DO's if there were more DO schools associated with large public universities. The fact that MD's nab places like UCF, UCR, and UTexas for their new schools while DO's open their new schools as freestanding or at tiny, no-name liberal arts colleges, makes the osteopathic medical profession look second class.

There are many layers to MD vs DO, but this is a major one. If all 30-some DO schools were affiliated with public universities that also hosted MD programs, I feel like the reputation of DO's would soar.

Oh come on now. Everyone has heard of LarkinCOM.

 

[Member10billion]

Well I don't really get phased by speculative opinions that are based on 2013-2014 mindsets. By the time I would ever consider opening up a school is like what, 25-30 years down the line? Who knows if its the right choice then or even if its possible or if DOs are assimilated by the Borg.

When its 2035, if still am considering it, then I'll be open to relevant criticism from relevant people. Until then, I'll continue to be an optimistic dreamer and feel good about my long-term goals which keep me motivated and anyone in this time period who bashes me will just get a bunch of LOL's from me

more people would be aware of DO's if there were more DO schools associated with large public universities. The fact that MD's nab places like UCF, UCR, and UTexas for their new schools while DO's open their new schools as freestanding or at tiny, no-name liberal arts colleges, makes the osteopathic medical profession look second class.

There are many layers to MD vs DO, but this is a major one. If all 30-some DO schools were affiliated with public universities that also hosted MD programs, I feel like the reputation of DO's would soar.

Yeah, I didn't know what DO was until last year. None of my (worthless and dream crushing) advisors mentioned it, nor did we have any DOs visit my university. When I finally looked into the DO degree, the only people I had for advice were old school MDs who thought lowly of the DO.

Definitely better advertising and program development are needed. As for the Caribbean advertising, I get at least 3 emails a week from various schools!

I was also thinking to fund (?) promote (?) work for (?) a DO school in my home state. MUCH is going to change by the time the class of 2018 is finished with their schooling and stable enough to open a school / moderate the AOA.

With the coming / current changes in healthcare, access to medical care will be much more widely available to the general population. More doctors/nurses/techs/everything will be needed. I am all for educating Americans first... then outside graduates, NOT THAT THEY'RE INFERIOR IN ANY WAY! I just think that we need to educate our own people before we import from other places. BUT THAT'S ANOTHER SUBJECT.

 

[Isha2018]

Just reading the OP's initial post made me laugh! Your friend may have been brain-washed. She may require a quick slap across the face. No proper friend would belittle you for choosing DO over MD, least of which, Caribbean MD.

Disclaimer: "Isha2018 does not condone physical violence, except for medicinal purposes. Only administer therapeutic slapping as directed."

 

[stlrams22]

Ever heard the saying "misery loves company"? No one in their right mind would get a 30 on their MCAT and neglect applying to US MD schools. Listen, you seem to be a good person for tolerating her nonsense. It's easy for anyone on SDN to say "send her to hell!" or "burn this heretic at the stake...she's probably a witch!" But when you have years of friendship, things can get complex.

If you truly want to keep her as a friend while defending your dignity, when she tells you "xyjdwjdpiajdaiwjd" because that's literally all she is saying....reply with "ok cool, so I guess we'll just agree to disagree. We'll both be doctors at the end of the day and that's all there is to it. You're happy I'm happy, now can we please just focus on anatomy? lol"

That should end the uncomfortable topic. Rinse and repeat as necessary.

I guess I'm not in my right mind. I scored a 30 on my MCAT and didn't apply to any MD schools, although I'm proud to say I have been accepted to DO school.

I would agree with no one in their right mind would apply to the Caribbean before applying to both US MD and DO schools.

 

[Dr. Zombie]

I guess I'm not in my right mind. I scored a 30 on my MCAT and didn't apply to any MD schools, although I'm proud to say I have been accepted to DO school.

I would agree with no one in their right mind would apply to the Caribbean before applying to both US MD and DO schools.

That's what I meant to say. I wasn't singling out MD vs DO. It was more like USA vs CaribMD with a 30 MCAT.

 

[stlrams22]

That's what I meant to say. I wasn't singling out MD vs DO. It was more like USA vs CaribMD with a 30 MCAT.

I figured that

 

[rainbow girl]

more people would be aware of DO's if there were more DO schools associated with large public universities. The fact that MD's nab places like UCF, UCR, and UTexas for their new schools while DO's open their new schools as freestanding or at tiny, no-name liberal arts colleges, makes the osteopathic medical profession look second class.

There are many layers to MD vs DO, but this is a major one. If all 30-some DO schools were affiliated with public universities that also hosted MD programs, I feel like the reputation of DO's would soar.

I have wondered this same problem. I live in Texas so the first DO School I know of is TCOM, which is associated with a big UG and also has a dual DO/PhD. But lots of other DO schools are associated with small liberal arts colleges. I am not saying that these schools are not great, but the trend somehow doesn't make sense to me.

 

[kp11]

My best guess is that your friend drank the "kool-aid" of Caribbean MD school advertising. Now that she is there...the honeymoon period might be wearing off.

 

[wjs010]

My best guess is that your friend drank the "kool-aid" of Caribbean MD school advertising. Now that she is there...the honeymoon period might be wearing off.

Something tells me a lot of clueless MD obsessed pre meds go through this period . No telling how many unsuccessful usmd pre meds end up going to Carribean either because they never heard of DO or refuse to NOT have that MD after school.

 

[darklabel]

Something tells me a lot of clueless MD obsessed pre meds go through this period . No telling how many unsuccessful usmd pre meds end up going to Carribean either because they never heard of DO or refuse to NOT have that MD after school.

Yeah, this part makes me sad. I recently had 2 friends applying with me that got into CarribMD and shunned away the DO option when I bring it up. I know in SDN and real world practice, DO = MD, but for a lot of premeds outside of SDN when they speak their minds, they still don't want to go the DO route just because of some made up stigma about the DO letters behind their name.

Oh well, their loss IMO.

 

[Dreamstoo]

Yeah, this part makes me sad. I recently had 2 friends applying with me that got into CarribMD and shunned away the DO option when I bring it up. I know in SDN and real world practice, DO = MD, but for a lot of premeds outside of SDN when they speak their minds, they still don't want to go the DO route just because of some made up stigma about the DO letters behind their name.

Oh well, their loss IMO.

Yes, I have run into kids like that too. Especially back in my area (upper middle class district in the tristate area). When I mentioned back home during my break I plan to apply to DO schools some people gave me weird looks. I just laughed it off. I know a DO is worth doing if I want to be a doctor rather than deal with the nerve racking idea that I might not be able to practice in the U.S. if I do not score well at CarribMD.

 

[happypremed1]

In the past few years, my fellowship program and my residency program have been getting pressure from administration to rank American graduates (preference to US MDs but we convinced the dean and head of GME to also include US DOs since we have had some great DOs in the recent past) over FMGs and US IMGs. And I've noticed for the past few years that we have fewer and fewer FMGs and US IMGs on our rank list.

I've worked with some awesome US IMGs and FMGs so I think we are missing out on some talent if we blindly set preference for US graduates over foreign medical school graduates (instead of ranking based on who we like), but that's the trend at our institutions (not limited to my fellowship or residency). I suspect that might be the trend at other programs as well.

So in a few years, as more MD students graduate, as more DO students graduate - those in the Caribbean might feel a squeeze. Although purely speculative at this point (and I don't have any data to point at), that's the impression that I'm getting (and the pressure that my PDs are feeling from higher up)

Do you really mean the fellowship after residency? I always thought that the US IMGs would be competitive for fellowship after completing and excelling in ACGME residency.

 

[cliquesh]

Do you really mean the fellowship after residency? I always thought that the US IMGs would be competitive for fellowship after completing and excelling in ACGME residency.

In 2011, the Acgme cardiology fellowship match rate
USMDs: 85%
DOs: 65%
USIMGs: 45%
Non-US IMG: 48%

Not all residencies are the same. There are many horrible Acgme residencies. I think the fellowship outcomes I presented are most likely related to the quality of the residency for each applicant type. If you go to a top tier residency you'll have many fellowship options. If you go to a low tier residency you'll have fewer options. It's hard for DOs and IMGs to match at the better programs, obviously. If, however, you do end up at a good program, you will have comparable options to the USMDs in your program. Not as many options, but similar.

Where you go for medical school influences your residency options and where you go for residency influences your fellowship options. It's all related.

 

[st2205]

Eventually you hit a point where you just come to accept that there are so many asinine things people will either believe or will convince themselves they believe that you don't even notice.

When I got accepted to medical school my mom was concerned about my decision because my "well-meaning" brother (a chiropractor) told her I wouldn't be able to get a job at a hospital as a DO.

 

[Dr. Zombie]

Eventually you hit a point where you just come to accept that there are so many asinine things people will either believe or will convince themselves they believe that you don't even notice.

When I got accepted to medical school my mom was concerned about my decision because my "well-meaning" brother (a chiropractor) told her I wouldn't be able to get a job at a hospital as a DO.

How did your mom and brother respond when u defended your decision?

 

[st2205]

How did your mom and brother respond when u defended your decision?

I was not present for the discussion. When I told my mom it was nonsense she still seemed skeptical. From time to time she'd bring up stuff he would say that was equally ridiculous. Trying to explain it was worthless. It took years for my mom to finally realize that he had no clue what he was talking about. She must have assumed I was drinking lots of Kool Aid, which is rather ironic.

 

[happypremed1]

I agree. No matter what, people are going to criticize you for something. If you went DO, people will wonder why you didn't go MD. If you go MD, people will wonder why you didn't go to Harvard. If you go to Harvard, people will wonder why you didn't match into plastic surgery. See where this is going?

Like like like your post very much!

I myself kept looking at the Harvard med match list and wondered how those people didn't match plastic surgery or top-tier academic programs in other specialties.

 

[Member10billion]

So, do people who graduate from Harvard get their first pick easily? Or do they have to cross our fingers and grind like everyone else?

 

[cliquesh]

So, do people who graduate from Harvard get their first pick easily? Or do they have to cross our fingers and grind like everyone else?

They have it easier. Program directors usually have a formula to help them rank their applicants. The medical school the applicant attends is usually part of that formula. How much weight given to that part of the formula varies from program director to program director, though. Some PDs really care and others... not so much.

 

[NurWollen]

Eventually you hit a point where you just come to accept that there are so many asinine things people will either believe or will convince themselves they believe that you don't even notice.

When I got accepted to medical school my mom was concerned about my decision because my "well-meaning" brother (a chiropractor) told her I wouldn't be able to get a job at a hospital as a DO.

Lol and he can get a hospital job right?

 

[st2205]

Lol and he can get a hospital job right?

That's one of the many small ironies that nobody seemed to have enough sense to appreciate.

 

[Roxas]

An acquaintance of mine is in the carib right now. He is on FB all the time. I'm going to be curious how step 1 goes for him...

 

[medickdb]

An acquaintance of mine is in the carib right now. He is on FB all the time. I'm going to be curious how step 1 goes for him...

Piña colada in one hand, computer mouse in the other.

 

[Buckeye(OH)]

Quite honestly, I would just let it ride. I know plenty of DO graduates, plenty of MD US grads, and plenty of Carib MD grads. While I personally have never had a friend spite me because of my DO background I don' think it would bother me one bit.

The absolute best thing you can do is maximize your experience. Match where you want to match into what you want to match into and let the cards fall.

 

[Chillywilly]

I bet you one day she will have a DO has her boss. Then laugh hard.

Truthfully, I'd rather be a DO at a US school than an MD at a caribb school. Plus, DOs have better pass rates on boards.

 

[Indianarn]

My very close friend is attending a Caribbean MD school now. She was very supportive throughout the entire process. However, now that I have been accepted at a DO school, all she can talk about is how Carib MDs are better than DOs, have better residencies and and status, etc. She also would tell me the story of how her Carib MD peer failed out of school and went to a DO school because it was easier.

So, what should I say/do? I don't want to start a "who's better" fight...

Just know how ignorant she/he is, smile, and be happy.

 

[NurWollen]

My very close friend is attending a Caribbean MD school now. She was very supportive throughout the entire process. However, now that I have been accepted at a DO school, all she can talk about is how Carib MDs are better than DOs, have better residencies and and status, etc. She also would tell me the story of how her Carib MD peer failed out of school and went to a DO school because it was easier.

So, what should I say/do? I don't want to start a "who's better" fight...

Land a sweet residency spot.

 

[medickdb]

This whole thing is stupid. They are only letters. Seriously. Go to medical school in Ireland and you graduate with a BS (Bachelor's in Surgery) and a BM (Bachelor's in Medicine). The BS there is a graduate medical degree, whereas here it is not, obviously. The Democratic Republic of the Moon could make an MD degree, but if it doesn't meet US licensing requirements it means nothing. MD could stand for moped driver; DO, dingie operator. Caribbean medical schools could even rename the MD degree to DO in their respective countries.

The friend isn't even going to school here. Therefore, she will not even be graduating from a US school. That's like getting your undergraduate degree in Argentina and coming back to work in the United States, then proceeding to say your Argentinian degree gives you a leg up with US employers compared someone who graduated from a US school with a similar degree just with different letters. The friend is stupid in assuming that two letters somehow grant her magical powers.

 

[doctorold]

I agree. No matter what, people are going to criticize you for something. If you went DO, people will wonder why you didn't go MD. If you go MD, people will wonder why you didn't go to Harvard. If you go to Harvard, people will wonder why you didn't match into plastic surgery. See where this is going?

Screw this. Let's just all go to Harvard

 

[Escape_Goat]

Screw this. Let's just all go to Harvard

No way. Piña coladas during exams sounds awesome. Let's go to the Caribbean.

 

[coolingglasses]

This whole thing is stupid. They are only letters. Seriously. Go to medical school in Ireland and you graduate with a BS (Bachelor's in Surgery) and a BM (Bachelor's in Medicine). The BS there is a graduate medical degree, whereas here it is not, obviously. The Democratic Republic of the Moon could make an MD degree, but if it doesn't meet US licensing requirements it means nothing. MD could stand for moped driver; DO, dingie operator. Caribbean medical schools could even rename the MD degree to DO in their respective countries.

The friend isn't even going to school here. Therefore, she will not even be graduating from a US school. That's like getting your undergraduate degree in Argentina and coming back to work in the United States, then proceeding to say your Argentinian degree gives you a leg up with US employers compared someone who graduated from a US school with a similar degree just with different letters. The friend is stupid in assuming that two letters somehow grant her magical powers.

making presumptions about the government on the moon, aren't we?

 

[medickdb]

making presumptions about the government on the moon, aren't we?

I hereby apologize to the Democratic Republic of the Moon, its people, and more specifically any and all medical practitioners within its sovereign, dusty boundaries.

 

[Mr Kenobi]

"What to do when your Carib MD friend bashes DO school"

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

I agree. No matter what, people are going to criticize you for something. If you went DO, people will wonder why you didn't go MD. If you go MD, people will wonder why you didn't go to Harvard. If you go to Harvard, people will wonder why you didn't match into plastic surgery. See where this is going?

This is true. The other day my mom got a new physician because her old one moved to another area. I told her the guy must be really smart because he graduated from UPenn. My mom reacted by saying "then why would he be in a regular clinic?" Another time my friend who took his son to UCSF told me he wasn't convinced by the Fellow he met because he went to University of Vermont despite being from Sacramento, which he said could only mean he wasn't smart enough to make it into a California medical school.

 

[Mad Jack]

This is true. The other day my mom got a new physician because her old one moved to another area. I told her the guy must be really smart because he graduated from UPenn. My mom reacted by saying "then why would he be in a regular clinic?" Another time my friend who took his son to UCSF told me he wasn't convinced by the Fellow he met because he went to University of Vermont despite being from Sacramento, which he said could only mean he wasn't smart enough to make it into a California medical school.

The attitude of many people makes me sad. It's amazing how much we tear down the details of one another's background and pedigree in a supposedly classless society.

 

[Dr. Zombie]

This is true. The other day my mom got a new physician because her old one moved to another area. I told her the guy must be really smart because he graduated from UPenn. My mom reacted by saying "then why would he be in a regular clinic?" Another time my friend who took his son to UCSF told me he wasn't convinced by the Fellow he met because he went to University of Vermont despite being from Sacramento, which he said could only mean he wasn't smart enough to make it into a California medical school.

In my opinion, these are super isolated cases that rarely would occur. The majority of the patient population are common people with common ignorance. I say this in the sense that nearly all patients don't really ever look to see what medical school the doctor went to. Even more, they wouldn't know the difference between competitiveness of Vermont vs CA.

If a NJ patient saw the doctor graduated from a school in Texas, the impression is not gonna be that he couldn't get into NJ but rather he wanted to travel. Maybe he has Texan family? Who knows.

I hope the premeds reading this that are unsure of DO schools or what MD schools to attend, won't be scared by rare situations like this.

Oh and one last thing, I used to work in a sales store and there were maybe 3 customers in my entire 5 years that went to a male clerk because they didn't want "a woman" to help them because "they're dumb." Yes this happened. Ignorance is inescapable no matter what school you attend or what career path you take.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

In my opinion, these are super isolated cases that rarely would occur. The majority of the patient population are common people with common ignorance. I say this in the sense that nearly all patients don't really ever look to see what medical school the doctor went to. Even more, they wouldn't know the difference between competitiveness of Vermont vs CA.

If a NJ patient saw the doctor graduated from a school in Texas, the impression is not gonna be that he couldn't get into NJ but rather he wanted to travel. Maybe he has Texan family? Who knows.

I hope the premeds reading this that are unsure of DO schools or what MD schools to attend, won't be scared by rare situations like this.

Oh and one last thing, I used to work in a sales store and there were maybe 3 customers in my entire 5 years that went to a male clerk because they didn't want "a woman" to help them because "they're dumb." Yes this happened. Ignorance is inescapable no matter what school you attend or what career path you take.

Well, if you're from California and you go to a school that's not Duke, in NYC or an Ivy League, we know you couldn't handle it here. California is that great.

As for these cases, I will agree they are very rare and far in between. I don't mention them as a norm but rather to add that it is true that the competitiveness can never be avoided.

 

[Dr. Zombie]

Well, if you're from California and you go to a school that's not Duke, in NYC or an Ivy League, we know you couldn't handle it here. California is that great.

I totally and understand that you have pride for your native state, but I think that's a very silly remark. I don't think every Californian's dream is to study in CA. I know plenty of people from California who applied outside because they wanted a different experience.[/quote]

 

[Mr Kenobi]

I totally and understand that you have pride for your native state, but I think that's a very silly remark. I don't think every Californian's dream is to study in CA. I know plenty of people from California who applied outside because they wanted a different experience.

I am one of them...only applied to schools outside of CA. Born and raised in SoCal...the wife and I agreed we'd like a change of scenery for a while and wanted to use this opportunity to get out and experience life elsewhere.

 

[hallowmann]

I totally and understand that you have pride for your native state, but I think that's a very silly remark. I don't think every Californian's dream is to study in CA. I know plenty of people from California who applied outside because they wanted a different experience.

Being married to a native californian and having relatives on both sides in the medical profession, I can say that many/most like CA and want to stay there or end up there. That said, there are also tons that either can't wait to get out or just want to move around for school.

I imagine its that case almost anywhere. People are comfortable with where they grew up and want to stay, others actually like a change of scenery, four seasons, etc. and others just want to explore. I highly doubt the majority of californians would be shocked at the concept of someone actually wanting to go out of state for school. If anyone thinks that way, they really should get out more.

Also, like Dr. Zombie said, there are tons of reasons for someone to go out of state, like sick relatives, cost of living, etc.

 

[Member10billion]

This is true. The other day my mom got a new physician because her old one moved to another area. I told her the guy must be really smart because he graduated from UPenn. My mom reacted by saying "then why would he be in a regular clinic?" Another time my friend who took his son to UCSF told me he wasn't convinced by the Fellow he met because he went to University of Vermont despite being from Sacramento, which he said could only mean he wasn't smart enough to make it into a California medical school.

This must mean that 1. CA med schools are the best (therefore all others inferior) and 2. no one would ever dream to leave CA.
Silliness! Many docs are from other places and other schools. Where would we be without cross state education?

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

I totally and understand that you have pride for your native state, but I think that's a very silly remark. I don't think every Californian's dream is to study in CA. I know plenty of people from California who applied outside because they wanted a different experience.

[/quote]
When you hear something outrageous, assume it's a joke unless the person states it's serious.

 

[Modeselektor]

appropriate response:

 

[Seth Joo]

My very close friend is attending a Caribbean MD school now. She was very supportive throughout the entire process. However, now that I have been accepted at a DO school, all she can talk about is how Carib MDs are better than DOs, have better residencies and and status, etc. She also would tell me the story of how her Carib MD peer failed out of school and went to a DO school because it was easier.

So, what should I say/do? I don't want to start a "who's better" fight...

I would laugh at her, Caribbean schools are diploma mills. Unless she went to a medical school in England or somewhere in Western Europe, maybe she might have a point.

 

[pattr]

I would laugh at her, Caribbean schools are diploma mills. Unless she went to a medical school in England or somewhere in Western Europe, maybe she might have a point.

Seth Joo... offering up troll posts since October 2013.

 

[Member10billion]

So, news update everyone. Now my Carib MD friend is not answering my phone calls or messages. I feel so bad to lose a good friend. I hope she comes around and gets over this funk.

 

[medickdb]

So, news update everyone. Now my Carib MD friend is not answering my phone calls or messages. I feel so bad to lose a good friend. I hope she comes around and gets over this funk.

Smells like jealousy.