What to do when your Carib MD friend bashes DO school

[chocolateislife]

Maybe you should re-read my statement, I already said that a large percentage of students failed out of his school before they took the USMLE exam. The Caribbean schools fail out a large percent of their students and only allow their best to take the Boards, that is why these schools publish high pass rates, in reality very few students actually get to that point.

we all know this. it's a messed up system. therefore the ones who actually make it are admirable in my opinion

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[Mehd School]

SGU kicks you out if you attain less than a 73 average in a class that is 3 credits or more at any given time.

It doesn't matter if your average is high or if you got 100 on every other class. Kick out means kick out with extremely rare success to appeal for readmission.

Keep in mind that these classes' overall grade is mostly based on 1 midterm/1 final or simply 1 final with mini quizzes that contribute close to nothing to your grade leaving you at the mercy of 1 exam to determine your future.

Can you post a source of this? I really try to steer people away from the Carib as much as I can but this is the worst I've read. I have a friend at a top 20 MD program that fails an exam or three every year. I feel like their attrition rate would be even higher if they portray what is basically a zero tolerance policy with grade average.

 

[Member10billion]

we all know this. it's a messed up system. therefore the ones who actually make it are admirable in my opinion

I don't know if "admirable" is the right word. Is it admirable that a US doc pass his/her classes? It is expected for us to pass.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

I don't know if "admirable" is the right word. Is it admirable that a US doc pass his/her classes? It is expected for us to pass.

I'd say outside our bubble most people would consider making it all the way t through as admirable.

 

[Mx300]

I don't know if "admirable" is the right word. Is it admirable that a US doc pass his/her classes? It is expected for us to pass.

I would say the same. I think that these days going to Carib schools is a risky and poor choice. And the people who actually make it through are ppl who probably could have been accepted to a US MD/DO school if they gave enough time and effort to fixing their app. I'm talking about us students not Canadian. I'm not familiar with their system. To me it indicates a lack of patience. But it's their life and if they went through and survived then good for them, I don't doubt there ability to be a decent doctor but I certainly don't admire them. Especially since a lot of ppl go just to get MD when they could go DO and all that shows is their insecurity/ pride. But it's whatever. Just my two cents.

 

[Member10billion]

I'd say outside our bubble most people would consider making it all the way t through as admirable.

It is no more admirable for a Caribbean med school student to pass his/her classes than it is for a US med school student to pass.

 

[orangeman25]

http://www.sgu.edu/about-sgu/medical-students-enrollment-statistics.html

I'm surprised about the averages honestly. 3.4/26 seems high for a Caribbean school. Obviously this means people with numbers good enough for DO are getting baited to go to the islands. So sad.

 

[Dr Tony T. Chopper]

I'm surprised about the averages honestly. 3.4/26 seems high for a Caribbean school. Obviously this means people with numbers good enough for DO are getting baited to go to the islands. So sad.

You'd be surprised how many people are mis-informed about osteopathic medicine. Even my lab mentor, who was pursuing a masters at the time to pad his app for MD school was spewing so many hateful, and untrue things about the inferiority of a DO degree. Although to be fair, that was years ago, and the merger was no where in the works.
SDN was very intimidating to me when i first visited, I felt like I knew so little amongst a sea of well-informed folks who all seem to have their ducks in a line. I'm really glad I stayed, learned little by little daily, and got comfortable with many of the discussions that take place on this wonderful platform.

 

[hallowmann]

... And the people who actually make it through are ppl who probably could have been accepted to a US MD/DO school if they gave enough time and effort to fixing their app...

I wouldn't say that this is necessarily true. Also, not everyone has the luxury to pad their app for another 1-2yrs (possibly more). Some people have different life situations that make that difficult. I'd hesitate to say what I've quoted above or to say that those people just have a lack of patience.


Also, do you guys above really buy those averages posted on those schools websites. The same place they make claims like 97% of their students pass Step 1. Just like that, I doubt its the whole truth.

 

[Mx300]

I wouldn't say that this is necessarily true. Also, not everyone has the luxury to pad their app for another 1-2yrs (possibly more). Some people have different life situations that make that difficult. I'd hesitate to say what I've quoted above or to say that those people just have a lack of patience.


Also, do you guys above really buy those averages posted on those schools websites. The same place they make claims like 97% of their students pass Step 1. Just like that, I doubt its the whole truth.

 

[MedWonk]

I wouldn't say that this is necessarily true. Also, not everyone has the luxury to pad their app for another 1-2yrs (possibly more). Some people have different life situations that make that difficult. I'd hesitate to say what I've quoted above or to say that those people just have a lack of patience.


Also, do you guys above really buy those averages posted on those schools websites. The same place they make claims like 97% of their students pass Step 1. Just like that, I doubt its the whole truth.

It's probably more like 97% of students who don't wash out pass Step 1. The ones that don't wash out were the ones that could've probably gotten into a school stateside and may have at least been competitive for DO. Misinformation leads plenty of people away from the DO and they end up shooting themselves in the foot by being stubborn about the letters behind their name. They may lack the patience at that time to be more persistent and diligent re: their app, but they'll regret it later on when they realize that their match rate sucks in spite of their Step 1 performance.

 

[chocolateislife]

Omg relax. I just said it was "admirable" because I know several people who attend Ross. They have to deal with lack of living supplies, basically no healthcare if they are sick, lack of police enforcement for local crime, potentially unsafe food places, animal abuse--- tie dogs to trees?, " fall robbery festivals" (what?) and what I think is the worst is lack of running water half the time right before they have exams. While most people who leave fail out some people cannot handle the lifestyle and just leave. So those who stay AND survive the ridiculous passing system (where you can repeat an entire semester for being 0.65 points below the passing score that is manipulated every semester to fail a certain number of students) have my respect
.
I am not implying that they are better in any way so there's no need to feel threatened....

I'm not disrespecting US students MD or DO. We all know it's a great accomplishment to pass a US med school. I am a US student. There's nothing wrong with saying something nice about someone or something else it doesn't make yourself or your path inferior. We are lucky to be pursuing our medical education in the US but it's immature to pass judgment on others. If you act that way I am not sure how your patients are going to respond to you. You worked hard ,great. It doesn't work out for everyone. Be nice and be glad you succeeded.jeez.

Also not everyone who is on the island got into DO schools or didn't want to reapply the following year and apply to DO. Some people can't afford to wait and reapply too. I also know people with similar stats to me who were not accepted to DO so the whole "insecurity/pride" concept is not fully reflective. I also have been fortunately accepted to DO schools that have been around for a while but if I had to resort to attending a new do school I would do that too. Some caribbean people only applied to competitive DOs. There's like so many factors involved besides what stats you have....

oh yea for SGU this is where I found the mcat stats http://etalk.sgu.edu/faqs/medfaq.pdf

Please continue to quote me if you are so inclined. Good for you.

 

[user3]

I'm surprised about the averages honestly. 3.4/26 seems high for a Caribbean school. Obviously this means people with numbers good enough for DO are getting baited to go to the islands. So sad.

fortunately DO schools are making great strides raising admission standards. Schools like CCOM, KCUMB, MSU, TCOM, etc are leading the pack in this. KCUMB avg MCAT jumped from 26 to 28 this year, in fact. I do think word is starting to get out that DO is > than Caribbean.

3.3/24 applicants will still have room to get in, but their opportunities are going to become more and more limited to new schools and schools like KYCOM and WVSOM.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

It is no more admirable for a Caribbean med school student to pass his/her classes than it is for a US med school student to pass.

I agree.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

fortunately DO schools are making great strides raising admission standards. Schools like CCOM, KCUMB, MSU, TCOM, etc are leading the pack in this. KCUMB avg MCAT jumped from 26 to 28 this year, in fact. I do think word is starting to get out that DO is > than Caribbean.

3.3/24 applicants will still have room to get in, but their opportunities are going to become more and more limited to new schools and schools like KYCOM and WVSOM.

DO has really made strides in recent years. I'm glad to see our standards always increase as well as giving a second chance to people. I hope the retakes rule never gets changed.

 

[tartesos]

Dat MD degree

Ignorance or Mis information are a better explanation.
Do is wayyyyy better that an mD from those money making machines of Caribbean export universities.

 

[chizledfrmstone]

fortunately DO schools are making great strides raising admission standards. Schools like CCOM, KCUMB, MSU, TCOM, etc are leading the pack in this. KCUMB avg MCAT jumped from 26 to 28 this year, in fact. I do think word is starting to get out that DO is > than Caribbean.

3.3/24 applicants will still have room to get in, but their opportunities are going to become more and more limited to new schools and schools like KYCOM and WVSOM.

Where did you hear this?

 

[bakedbeans18]

My very close friend is attending a Caribbean MD school now. She was very supportive throughout the entire process. However, now that I have been accepted at a DO school, all she can talk about is how Carib MDs are better than DOs, have better residencies and and status, etc. She also would tell me the story of how her Carib MD peer failed out of school and went to a DO school because it was easier.

So, what should I say/do? I don't want to start a "who's better" fight...

You should just remind them that while you're attending a medical school stateside, that they are a literally a victim of commercialism and that it will follow them throughout the rest of their career as they submit their CV.

For example, AUC is a member school of DeVry - so it's kind of like getting your MD from a tech school / internet university. It is accredited by a commission in Ireland, and it is publicly owned/traded on the NYSE. I am certain that most of the carribean medical schools are like this.

 

[bakedbeans18]

Disclaimer: "Isha2018 does not condone physical violence, except for medicinal purposes. Only administer therapeutic slapping as directed."

Do excorcisms count?

 

[doctorold]

Obviously it's a bad decision unless you have no other options especially with the threat of schools in the Car. losing funding in 2017.

What are you talking about? Carib schools gonna loose their funding?

 

[Member10billion]

You should just remind them that while you're attending a medical school stateside, that they are a literally a victim of commercialism and that it will follow them throughout the rest of their career as they submit their CV.

For example, AUC is a member school of DeVry - so it's kind of like getting your MD from a tech school / internet university. It is accredited by a commission in Ireland, and it is publicly owned/traded on the NYSE. I am certain that most of the carribean medical schools are like this.

She completely stopped talking to me. I have made no remarks for or against her school. Makes me sad to lose a good friend because of jealousy and pettiness.

 

[slammer922]

fortunately DO schools are making great strides raising admission standards. Schools like CCOM, KCUMB, MSU, TCOM, etc are leading the pack in this. KCUMB avg MCAT jumped from 26 to 28 this year, in fact. I do think word is starting to get out that DO is > than Caribbean.

3.3/24 applicants will still have room to get in, but their opportunities are going to become more and more limited to new schools and schools like KYCOM and WVSOM.

This is truth. New TCOM stats are out.... 3.66 gpa and 28.7 MCAT. That was basically the Tx MD avg when I applied.

 

[Dr. Zombie]

She completely stopped talking to me. I have made no remarks for or against her school. Makes me sad to lose a good friend because of jealousy and pettiness.

Maybe she uses SDN and saw you posting?

 

[Member10billion]

Maybe she uses SDN and saw you posting?

Naw. She doesn't use SDN and she doesn't know who Member10Billion is.

 

[scoKraz4]

Schools having higher MCAT/GPA averages is mainly a result of more people applying. Not surprising that DO school stats are rising considering how many more people apply to schools every year. Touro-NY had a class average of 30MCAT for 2017 class.

 

[Paul Darlington]

Naw. She doesn't use SDN and she doesn't know who Member10Billion is.

You are a pathetic excuse for a human being who needs attention. Like who cares, stop selling yourself as an innocent and better person by fabricating stories.

 

[Dr Tony T. Chopper]

You are a pathetic excuse for a human being who needs attention. Like who cares, stop selling yourself as an innocent and better person by fabricating stories.

Relax. Please don't flame others for no good reason.

 

[premed1001]

caribbean is not such a bad thing if the new proposal for increased GME spots passes
with more spots, it will allow more IMG and FMG to match
with the tight restrictions that the LCME has, i dont see them increasing class sizes enough to keep up with the new spots, furthermore most allopaths dont want primary care

 

[Member10billion]

You are a pathetic excuse for a human being who needs attention. Like who cares, stop selling yourself as an innocent and better person by fabricating stories.

Well, that escalated quickly.

 

[Jdubbss21]

You are a pathetic excuse for a human being who needs attention. Like who cares, stop selling yourself as an innocent and better person by fabricating stories.

Well it looks like we found your friend on SDN.

 

[doctorold]

You are a pathetic excuse for a human being who needs attention. Like who cares, stop selling yourself as an innocent and better person by fabricating stories.

 

[Dr Tony T. Chopper]

The differing growth patterns in the substantially overlapping applicant pools for each MD and DO schools can suggest some differences in the demographics and possibly some indications of where they are headed in the future.

While the number of first year allopathic seats has grown from both new schools opening and the increased enrollment at existing schools, applicant pool has grown at about the same rate. What has changed is that for the past decade or so, overall GPA of applicants has increased by 0.5 points and MCAT score by 2 points. Thus MD schools have become more selective in acceptance.

There has been a tremendous growth in the number of new DO schools, new branch campuses of existing schools, and increase in seats at existing schools at a much higher rate than MD. Yet the applicant pool for DO has grown at even a higher rate . This may be due to the selective pressure at MD schools, forcing applicants who a decade ago would have been very competitive do instead opt for DO. Thus on an applicant to seat basis, DO schools have become more competitive than MD schools. Additionally this competition has increased the GPA and MCAT scores of applicants at DO significantly over the past decade.

While both MD and DO seats have increased, the number of residency slots has barely budged. With a recent small increase in slots of 1,300, the number of first year allopathic residency slots will be about 27,500 in a year or two. Last year there were 22,000 first year MD students and 6,000 first year DO students, half of which typically go to allopathic residency (even though the residency programs of MD and DO are combining, it will not increase or likely change the end result of this numbers). Accounting for some attrition, you are looking at 24,000-25,000 US MD/DO graduates virtually all of which will get a residency slot, via MATCH or SOAP. That leaves 3500 at most for IMG/FMG. A decade ago it was more like 6,000-7,000 slots for IMG/FMG. Simply by numbers it becomes increasingly harder for an IMG/FMG to match.

Just to put this all in perspective, once you do complete residency, become board certified, etc, most perceived difference between MD, DO, IMG/FMG in actual clinical practice disappear. When docs talk to one another about where they trained, they mean residency

Good analysis. But may I ask how you came up with the DO applicant pool outgrowing DO school spots claim?

 

[Dr Tony T. Chopper]

from the AACOM/AACOMAS data http://www.aacom.org/data/applicantsmatriculants/Pages/default.aspx

The numbers below are from a quick spread I populated from data at the above link. Please note this is based on applicants versus enrollment (not acceptance) so if compared to AAMC/AMCAS data should be used with applicants versus matriculants . As you can see the the first year enrollment numbers are steadily increasing, indicating the growth in DO schools. Notice that the applicant pool is growing a a faster rate as indicated by the decreasing enrollment rate and the increasing applicant to enrollment ratio.

year -------------applicants ........first year enrollment... Enrollment Rate %.... Enrollment Ratio
2012-2013 -----16454..................... 5986................................ 36.38%......................2.75
2011-2012------14945..................... 5788 ................................38.73%...................... 2.58
2010-2011------14087..................... 5428................................38.53%...................... 2.60
2009-2010-----13147...................... 5227................................ 39.76%.......................2.52
2008-2009-----12617..................... 4950.................................39.23%...................... 2.55

Thank you sir, I appreciate it.