What would you change if you worked in medical school admissions?

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you've probably dealt with introverts who act extroverted and the reverse, and didn't notice the difference. It's not as black and white as you make it out to be and people can learn and act differently in diff environments.

You can pretty well figure out who's introverted and who isn't. Especially if you work with them. A LOT of it is about body posture, eye contact ect. Docs who are introverted as far as I've noticed make less eye contact, have more conservative body posture, they won't project their voice. Others will have more positive body language, more vocal, louder ect.

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1. Every school should have a detailed admissions tracker like Michigan and AZ-Phoenix do, and include a link to this in an email as soon as an applicant submits the secondary. Keep it updated regularly to show applicants how the admissions process is unfolding at each school.

2. Schools should make more of an effort to provide feedback to applicants who will need to reapply. I know it's not so feasible with schools that are receiving over 10,000 applications, but only a small number of people are going to call each school. Have a sub-committee of faculty and/or students who can pull up a rejected applicant's file and review it and tell them about their strengths and weaknesses.

3. Silent rejections and months and months of waiting are kind of stupid, in my opinion. Be more quick with sending out pre-interview rejections. I got rejected from Tulane in mid August only a month after submitting my secondary. I actually appreciated it since I knew right away that I was not qualified to attend there and I could move on.

4. (Not so important but still) serve something other than a sandwich with chips at the interview lunch. Lol
 
You can pretty well figure out who's introverted and who isn't. Especially if you work with them. A LOT of it is about body posture, eye contact ect. Docs who are introverted as far as I've noticed make less eye contact, have more conservative body posture, they won't project their voice. Others will have more positive body language, more vocal, louder ect.

Huge generalization on your part validated more by confirmation-bias than anything. there may be general trends, but i fear for your patients if this is how you evaluate them and you just lump them into categories. also, i dont see how you're a med student if you can't interact with introverts as well as extroverts. If you replaced introverts and extroverts with races of people you'd be a bigot, this is hardly different. people are dynamic. I suggest you take some time off and interact with a larger subset of people of all demographics if you truly want to hold up in medicine.

Even if you think that it's unfair, I don't think a getting a 35 instead of a 37 (which is the kind of score i would expect from someone making these complaints) is going to cause too many schools to reject an applicant. Maybe it would even avoid some yield protection rejections.

i dont care about 35s and 37s. they have no reasons to worry. it's more for 29s than anything.

It was a 4 point drop in VR as I recall.
Now who's not being honest?
You, since you have no clue what you're talking about. I'm merely articulating that a 2-3 point drop can occur with missing 2 questions, if you looked at the practice AAMC FL grading keys/percentiles that's readily visible, or perhaps you took the mcat so long ago the standards were way lower back then.
 
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You, since you have no clue what you're talking about. I'm merely articulating that a 2-3 point drop can occur with missing 2 questions, if you looked at the practice AAMC FL grading keys/percentiles that's readily visible, or perhaps you took the mcat so long ago the standards were way lower back then.
I'm just referring to your posts regarding how your drop in VR would be interpreted.
 
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I just recall your posts regarding how your drop in VR would be interpreted.

I'm referring to MCAT FL scoring percentiles to point value distributions, nothing else.
 
I'm referring to MCAT FL scoring percentiles to point value distributions, nothing else.
I'm referring to your assertion that you only took the MCAT once.
There is no particular shame in two takes, but there is no need to dissemble, especially if it's one of the many reasons for your bitterness. You could do a lot of good by telling others not to re-take the MCAT without seriously re-tooling to assure a better outcome.
 
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i dont care about 35s and 37s. they have no reasons to worry. it's more for 29s than anything.
Then I don't see what the problem is. I thought you might be referring to how difficult it is to get a perfect score, because only 1-2 questions wrong drops you a couple points.

Each test is graded so that there is the same mean and standard deviation. My 10ish scores were very consistent. When I scored worse, it was because I lost focus or somehow performed worse. If you had varied results, you probably also performed worse on some tests. The questions are fairly easy so missing a couple questions really is a big deal and should mean a point of difference.

I found my old practice tests but they don't have any scoring info, so I don't have exact numbers to look at.
 
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What would you do?

Digitize the entire process, sort of like package tracking from UPS et. al. so applicants can see the process of their application throughout the entire ordeal. There's not enough transparency throughout the process imo.
 
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I'm referring to your assertion that you only took the MCAT once.
There is no particular shame in two takes, but there is no need to dissemble, especially if it's one of the many reasons for your bitterness. You could do a lot of good by telling others not to re-take the MCAT without seriously re-tooling to assure a better outcome.

I see, you'd rather argue about irrelevant information that isn't accurate, than acknowledge the inconsistency in VR like a perfectly trained admissions drone.
 
I see, you'd rather argue about irrelevant information that isn't accurate, than acknowledge the inconsistency in VR like a perfectly trained admissions drone.
This response does nothing to help people get into medical school, the stated purpose of this forum. Your actual experience could be relevant if you would choose to use it to help others.
 
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Isn't it unfair to college seniors and recent grads to measure them up to very accomplished individuals like that who are several years out of school? These young ones have to start somewhere, and should not be penalized for knowing earlier in life that they like medicine. These more accomplished people often had their own careers, why should their second chance at a career be weighed more heavily than the college kid's first chance? Provided that the college kid or grad is very accomplished in their own right of course. I believe that the more years someone is in practice, the more they can contribute to medicine and the good of their patients. My traditional friends feel like they are getting squeezed out by non-trads.

Your most qualified undergrad researcher cannot measure up to even the least accomplished PhD. The best intramural athlete (me) cannot compete against the professional ball player. My guitar and piano playing hobbies cannot compete with the person who was in a band.



To be honest, I am still kind of afraid to do that. I have it ingrained into my head that this possibility, no matter how minute, is in fact possible.

Here is my question: what is wrong with these people getting higher priority? You are right: there is no way to compete with them, but is that a bad thing? If I am hiring for a job I will get the most qualified candidate. If its harder to get into medical school outside of college, then take a gap year or two. There is nothing wrong with that at all. In fact, it might arguably be better as it would give people time to think and give them valuable life experience, which incidentally is what these candidates have that is so valuable. College is an echo chamber and doesn't really expose people to life in the same way that actually living on one's own for a bit does. Someone who has reached the top of another field has clearly got the drive and ambition to succeed and the fact that they want to go to medical school enough to take the mcat and go through the hoops despite having a viable career is a decent indicator of passion.
 
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This response does nothing to help people get into medical school, the stated purpose of this forum. Your actual experience could be relevant if you would choose to use it to help others.

Neither does your blind eye to the flaws and deficiencies of the VR section on the old mcat.
 
Neither does your blind eye to the flaws and deficiencies of the VR section on the old mcat.

I'm confused. Why are you so salty if you got into medical school already
 
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I'm confused. Why are you so salty if you got into medical school already

My acceptance changes nothing about the flaws and oversimplifications of this process that cause so many applicants to fall through the cracks without any proper justification.
 
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Neither does your blind eye to the flaws and deficiencies of the VR section on the old mcat.
Verbal reasoning will continue to be an important part of the assessment of candidates.
Your experience with it could be illustrative for other pre-meds. The fact that you continue to come back to these fora makes me hope that you really want to help others. Or is it just an opportunity to spread bitterness?
 
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Verbal reasoning will continue to be an important part of the assessment of candidates.
Your experience with it could be illustrative for other pre-meds. The fact that you continue to come back to these fora makes me hope that you really want to help others. Or is it just an opportunity to spread bitterness?

If what you said were true i'd be spreading it, but when a section is as flawed as VR applicants should know it's not just them.
 
Here is my question: what is wrong with these people getting higher priority? You are right: there is no way to compete with them, but is that a bad thing? If I am hiring for a job I will get the most qualified candidate. If its harder to get into medical school outside of college, then take a gap year or two. There is nothing wrong with that at all. In fact, it might arguably be better as it would give people time to think and give them valuable life experience, which incidentally is what these candidates have that is so valuable. College is an echo chamber and doesn't really expose people to life in the same way that actually living on one's own for a bit does. Someone who has reached the top of another field has clearly got the drive and ambition to succeed and the fact that they want to go to medical school enough to take the mcat and go through the hoops despite having a viable career is a decent indicator of passion.

My response will be widely unpopular, I'm sorry. I understand it is a tough economy for everyone out there, with some people transitioning into medicine not by choice but out of necessity for a secure job. I only see education as an investment. People say life experience through gap years, I say loss on return on income during my career.

Also, several non-trads were already established in other fields, whether it be law, banking, engineering, or non-profit work. Some see it that they are taking spots away from the traditional applicants, while a traditional applicant cannot so easily apply for a job in banking, law, non-profit, etc (because they lack the credentials).

From a purely economic standpoint (forget personal aspirations), these guys had it good for being established in a career. The traditional applicants are quite unlucky since they are not established in a career and are seeking to start their first career.
 
Isn't it unfair to college seniors and recent grads to measure them up to very accomplished individuals like that who are several years out of school? These young ones have to start somewhere, and should not be penalized for knowing earlier in life that they like medicine. These more accomplished people often had their own careers, why should their second chance at a career be weighed more heavily than the college kid's first chance? Provided that the college kid or grad is very accomplished in their own right of course. I believe that the more years someone is in practice, the more they can contribute to medicine and the good of their patients. My traditional friends feel like they are getting squeezed out by non-trads.

Your most qualified undergrad researcher cannot measure up to even the least accomplished PhD. The best intramural athlete (me) cannot compete against the professional ball player. My guitar and piano playing hobbies cannot compete with the person who was in a band.



To be honest, I am still kind of afraid to do that. I have it ingrained into my head that this possibility, no matter how minute, is in fact possible.

I think you're neglecting the fact that these Olympic/gold medal athletes, Broadway actresses/musicians etc are at the tip top of the spectrum. It is likely that they were already highly accomplished even in their high school years, so it is definitely fair to compare to that. In essence, these people have already proved their mettle, perseverence and grit since they were kids.

Honestly, a more comparable comparison to applicants of that caliber would be one of the candidates that have won one of those prestigious research fellowships or something. Which, if you can see from the top med schools, have many research focused students that are really amazing candidates.
 
If what you said were true i'd be spreading it, but when a section is as flawed as VR applicants should know it's not just them.
Your verbal score didn't prevent you from getting a ton of interviews. In one of your many other accounts, you talked about getting an interview invite at a school with a ridiculously high median mcat.

Invited to interview at a medical school where my mcat is way below the median. Do I have a chance?

Not only are you misrepresenting this process, you're misrepresenting your own experiences.
 
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Your verbal score didn't prevent you from getting a ton of interviews. In one of your many other accounts, you even talked about getting an interview invite at a school with a ridiculously high mcat median.

Invited to interview at a medical school where my mcat is way below the median. Do I have a chance?

Not only are you misrepresenting this process, you're misrepresenting your own experiences.

Ahh I see you're back for the witch hunt. Gonna invest in that tinfoil hat for interview days? At least then you'll have a context for your inane ramblings, but I'm probably jumping the gun - this is assuming you get any interviews.
 
I think you're neglecting the fact that these Olympic/gold medal athletes, Broadway actresses/musicians etc are at the tip top of the spectrum. It is likely that they were already highly accomplished even in their high school years, so it is definitely fair to compare to that. In essence, these people have already proved their mettle, perseverence and grit since they were kids.

Honestly, a more comparable comparison to applicants of that caliber would be one of the candidates that have won one of those prestigious research fellowships or something. Which, if you can see from the top med schools, have many research focused students that are really amazing candidates.
I had an earlier post that explained it better. Part of what's annoying is that those people are very successful and already established in a career. The average premed is not established in a career and cannot apply for a job as easily in something in like athletics, music, banking, law, whatever. Their second chance at a career is weighed more than the average person's first chance at a career.

From a purely economic standpoint (forget personal aspirations), these guys had it good for being established in a career. The traditional applicants are quite unlucky since they are not established in a career and are seeking to start their first career.
 
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@Cyberdyne 101 - and here you could actually be contributing to a thread that would help you contextualize what is going to happen to you if you ever get off sdn and apply to med school. For shame.
 
Officer F, what were you like last year when you didn't have an acceptance?
 
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I had an earlier post that explained it better. Part of what's annoying is that those people are very successful and already established in a career. The average premed is not established in a career and cannot apply for a job as easily in something in like athletics, music, banking, law, whatever. Their second chance at a career is weighed more than the average person's first chance at a career.

From a purely economic standpoint (forget personal aspirations), these guys had it good for being established in a career. The traditional applicants are quite unlucky since they are not established in a career and are seeking to start their first career.

I will agree on that. But there's something also to be said about working your whole life in something you don't find fulfilling...that's definitely me being selfish though.

Could I continue in music? Probably. Do I want to? Heck no, I'll probably suffer from clinical depression if I have to go do that the rest of my life. I don't regret it though
 
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This is sad.

Yea it is sad how admissions handles this process with some many flaws and such faulty reasoning. They could probably become the next presidents of the united states and senators with flawed logic they use.
 
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You can pretty well figure out who's introverted and who isn't. Especially if you work with them. A LOT of it is about body posture, eye contact ect. Docs who are introverted as far as I've noticed make less eye contact, have more conservative body posture, they won't project their voice. Others will have more positive body language, more vocal, louder ect.

I think you're mixing up being introverted with being overly shy and awkward. Introverts can still enjoy and be good at socializing. The main difference is that extroverts gain energy from socializing and want to be around others almost constantly. Introverts are more drained by socializing and need alone time regularly to "recharge." Being an introvert myself, I absolutely love socializing. I know how to make good eye contact, have good posture, and project my voice (a skill that I know very well from being in theatre). While I do still need my daily alone time, I don't think that that hinders my socialization skills whatsoever.
 
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I think you're mixing up being introverted with being overly shy and awkward. Introverts can still enjoy and be good at socializing. The main difference is that extroverts gain energy from socializing and want to be around others almost constantly. Introverts are more drained by socializing and need alone time regularly to "recharge." Being an introvert myself, I absolutely love socializing. I know how to make good eye contact, have good posture, and project my voice (a skill that I know very well from being in theatre). While I do still need my daily alone time, I don't think that that hinders my socialization skills whatsoever.

Nailed it. Also if hopeful thinks being around you is a drain solely based on the fact you need more time to yourself, he's a short-sighted fool. Everyone's different and these differences don't make anyone less worthy of respect or understanding.
 
My response will be widely unpopular, I'm sorry. I understand it is a tough economy for everyone out there, with some people transitioning into medicine not by choice but out of necessity for a secure job. I only see education as an investment. People say life experience through gap years, I say loss on return on income during my career.

Also, several non-trads were already established in other fields, whether it be law, banking, engineering, or non-profit work. Some see it that they are taking spots away from the traditional applicants, while a traditional applicant cannot so easily apply for a job in banking, law, non-profit, etc (because they lack the credentials).

From a purely economic standpoint (forget personal aspirations), these guys had it good for being established in a career. The traditional applicants are quite unlucky since they are not established in a career and are seeking to start their first career.

Fair enough. I do agree that education is very much an investment in the future, although I would argue that you still need some interest in it/it holds intrinsic value beyond money (of course, I am also an idealist when it comes to education, so yay bias!). I guess that. at the end of the day, I just don't see traditional applicants losing spots as a problem. Now, if they offered something non-traditionals lacked, then it would be a big deal, but to the bets of my knowledge they don't. And while it is unlucky for traditional applicants, I don't really see why the system has to change to accommodate them. Life is kind of unfair, at the end of the day, and while it is unfortunate to go through the process of applying and get cut out by someone else, that happens in all fields to plenty of qualified people all the time. Its unfortunate, but when so many people are fighting for so few spots qualified people will inevitably lose out to even more qualified people. Maybe traditional applicants ought to spend some time working on alternate career options?
 
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Officer F, what were you like last year when you didn't have an acceptance?

He was probably just as awesome. He succeeded in spite of the odds just like I did and that's why he recognizes the deficiencies of this process so well.
 
Please keep the thread on topic. Please refrain from personal attacks. Please report personal attacks to moderators (you can use the report button!) and do not respond to them. Thank you.
 
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I think AMCAS should have the option for an applicant to send a letter of interest/intent to only ONE school through the application, so the school would know that the applicant is truly interested in the school.
 
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If it were me, I'd just do skype interviews and save everyone time and money. If you want to tour the school and meet faculty and all, great, but I think it makes more sense to do that after you're accepted.

I really like this idea. Some of the PhD programs I applied to had an initial Skype interview that you had to pass before being sent to the next steps. It was scary but nice since they point blank told you if you passed at the end.
 
Response to question in title: FIX DIVERSITY!!!!!!!!!!!!!

1. Never ever import international students without screening them, in some way, for tolerance of women, gay/lesbian, and transgender people. WHY IMPORT HATE???? And vice versa to be fair.

2. Provide diversity training that includes, not only race, religion, and cultural competence, but ALSO training about gay/lesbian, intersex, and transgender people - And also include them in sexual harassment training. (It's pathetic how few doctors can give a detailed and accurate definition of transgender these days, and how often they veer off course into something different that has medical implications. These days there is no excuse for letting this happen due to lack of priority.)
 
Increase transparency, especially for waitlisted applicants because they are significantly invested in a specific school already and they deserve to have a more clear idea of the chances of their life changing within the next few months, so that they can make adequate preparations. An example would be to at least tell them what "tier" they are in, like based on evidence from previous years, you have a good chance of getting in, or you may or may not get in, or you probably won't get in.

Decrease the fetish for people with superstar qualities in non-medically related stuff. Being a gifted musician or athlete does not make you a better candidate for physician. A majority of people choose to pursue medicine because they, gasp, are most talented in the sciences. So why should they be punished for engaging in "cookie-cutter" premed activities like shadowing and research when that's probably what they are genuinely interested in and good at?
 
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I think you're mixing up being introverted with being overly shy and awkward. Introverts can still enjoy and be good at socializing. The main difference is that extroverts gain energy from socializing and want to be around others almost constantly. Introverts are more drained by socializing and need alone time regularly to "recharge." Being an introvert myself, I absolutely love socializing. I know how to make good eye contact, have good posture, and project my voice (a skill that I know very well from being in theatre). While I do still need my daily alone time, I don't think that that hinders my socialization skills whatsoever.

My apologies haha. I should've been more clear when I posted that.
 
My apologies haha. I should've been more clear when I posted that.

You shouldn't have made the assumptions you made about individuals in the first place because you're doing not only yourself but others who dont fit into the boxes you mentioned an incredible disservice with your myopicness.
 
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Sure, I agree with a lot of what you said. But to your final paragraph...you're just talking to the wrong people. I have worked with more people who want to help than people who want to pad their resume. To be fair, I think the way I grew up and the choices I made exposed me more to the first group. I come from a VERY rural area in the Midwest where everybody just helps people because it's the right thing to do. Went to a small LAC where the big mission was to teach us to be "men and women for others." I can definitely see how someone with different experiences might come to different conclusions.

I will say I encountered most of the genuine helpers a bit off the beaten path from the typical pre-med experiences, and I definitely had to go outside my own comfort zone for those kinds of activities.


Some of the most passionate, caring people I ever met were volunteers at the local horse rescue. They were there because they wanted to be with the animals--none of them were premeds, maybe one was a prevet. A lot were HS students who hadn't decided on any career path and merely wanted to brush manes and do some riding. Others already had careers and were just looking to do something with their spare time other than watch daytime TV.

But closer to the city and the major universities I found the exact opposite.
 
You shouldn't have made the assumptions you made about individuals in the first place because you're doing not only yourself but others who dont fit into the boxes you mentioned an incredible disservice with your myopathy.

lmfao bruh...you need to calm the F down. You are the definition of a keyboard warrior lol.
 
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lmfao bruh...you need to calm the F down. You are the definition of a keyboard warrior lol.

Naw, you're the definition of a myopathic individual that comes off as bigoted. No wonder it took you a few cycles to finally sink the ball in the hoop.

Your patients will be even less content with your assumptions than i am, so it's type for you to change it up. Introvert vs. extrovert, black vs. white. it's all BS and you're just perpetuating short-sighted bigotry.
 
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Some of the most passionate, caring people I ever met were volunteers at the local horse rescue. They were there because they wanted to be with the animals--none of them were premeds, maybe one was a prevet. A lot were HS students who hadn't decided on any career path and merely wanted to brush manes and do some riding. Others already had careers and were just looking to do something with their spare time other than watch daytime TV.

But closer to the city and the major universities I found the exact opposite.

My best friend who is an engineer volunteers at a summer camp with his church part time and does tons of homeless outreach. If you looked at his resume, you would not find a single hour of service documented. He is there because he loves doing it. Oh, did I mention he is not premed?
 
Naw, you're the definition of a myopathic individual that comes off as bigoted. If you want to make assumptions about groups of people for no good reason that aren't justifiable you can always become a member of stormfront. i'm sure you'd fit in perfectly there. No wonder it took you a few cycles to finally sink the ball in the hoop.

Your patients will be even less content with your assumptions than i am, so it's type for you to change it up.

lolz i applied this cycle and I got in everywhere I interviewed. #iwin
 
you're a reapplicant, and have no point because even a wrong clock is right twice a day.

I hope that whatever school accepted you sees these posts.

Someone would get off their waitlist very quickly.
 
I hope that whatever school accepted you sees these posts.

Someone would get off their waitlist very quickly.

I hope you figure out how insulting it is when a user talks **** about an entire group of people for no reason like hopeful does. His future patient roster would be vacant if they say those posts.
 
I hope you figure out how insulting it is when a user talks **** about an entire group of people for no reason like hopeful does. His future patient roster would be vacant if they say those posts.

I don't want to come off as patronizing/condescending, so I apologize if I come off so beforehand. Regardless of however insulting you view some posters' posts, it doesn't make it okay for you to "bite" back. I'm not saying be a doormat (there are definitely some poster's posts here that get on my nerves, and I try my best to conceal it but of course sometimes I fail at it too), but I think there are ways to voice your displeasure at people without insulting them. It only makes you look bad and fails to get your point across, and perhaps even gives the other person the satisfaction knowing they got you to retaliate in a way that puts you in a negative light. I think @Spinach Dip was just trying to get at the same point in a more blunt manner.

There are real people behind these screens...and I like being on here because people in general are pretty level-headed even if they really disagree with each other. Insults being thrown back and forth kind of take away from that...
 
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:hello: I think there should be a way for medical schools to see how their applicants speak to others on anonymous forums. That should narrow down the admissions process a little. In all seriousness though, yikes people. I think admissions offices do the best they can with the volume of applications that they receive every cycle. No one will ever feel that the entire process is fair and it will never be perfect (clearly, because the thought of some people on this thread being accepted literally terrifies me). Most admissions offices have a small number of people trying to keep track of thousands of applicants, interview invitations, scheduling interviewees (and interviewers, since they don't ACTUALLY live to serve premed students, contrary to popular belief), coordinating with the committee that makes decisions, scheduling committee meetings (because, again, they don't live to serve us), and this is not to mention answering the hundreds of daily emails and phone calls from students who are "just checking" on the status of their application because it's "unfair" that they haven't heard back yet. These are just things that I can imagine that they have to sift through on a daily basis and I've never worked in admissions. So in reality, it's probably this times about a million, just for scale.

I'm not just trying to stir the bitter pot here. I just think that we need to recognize that this is a human process that is run by humans who are doing their best at their jobs. I'm not saying that the process is perfect and it clearly isn't always great at selecting people who will make great physicians, but thousands of very similarly qualified applicants apply every year. I think any one of us would be hard pressed to find a way to make everyone feel that the admissions process is fair and all-encompassing. Whatever we believe would be a "quick fix" for any part of the process would take away from or cause a problem with another part.

tldr: Med school admission is speed dating, people. It's not a three year relationship with your high school sweetheart where they spend the first 2 years working through your awkward phase just to find out that you're "actually an ok guy in the end no matter what everyone else thinks." Also, please don't anyone feel the need to personally attack me for saying so :mooning:
 
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