What's the best first gun to own?

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Any recommendations for a first shotgun for clays in the same price range as but superior to the mossberg 930? Thinking this is going to be a present to myself toward the end of the semester

I prefer an over/under for (sporting) clays. In that price range, you could get a Mossberg O/U or a CZ.

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Hm, have been told to stay away from the cheap o/u's like the plague, but the CZ huglu's seem to, on the whole, be reviewed pretty well. I'll look into it more, thanks!
 
No, steel cased ammo is fine. Most Tula and Wolf is actually the same stuff, out of the same factories. Different label/importer. Tula tends to be a bit cheaper because Wolf has customer service and supposedly it's easier to get them to take care of customers if there's a problem.

All manufacturers have periodic recalls, and if you look hard enough, you can find stories and pictures of blow'd up weapons from faulty ammunition from every manufacturer.

Even Hornady sells steel cased training ammunition now. Steel cased ammo has a reputation for being hard on guns, but it's really not deserved. It's not high carbon super hard armor-plate steel; it's soft mild steel. Fear of extra wear on guns probably isn't warranted.

It used to be that the Russian steel cased ammo was coated with a laquer that got hot and gummy and tended to cause stuck cases, especially in AR-type guns, but for years now it's been polymer coated. If you switch back and forth between brass and steel cased ammo, you may wind up with a stuck case because the steel cased stuff tends to be dirty, it doesn't expand to seal the chamber as well as brass, and so the chamber gets more nasty more quickly. Follow up with a brass cartridge in that dirty chamber, you're more likely to get a stuck case.

If you have an expensive match <1 MOA rifle barrel, it makes no real sense to be shooting cheap 4+ MOA Russian import ammo out of it. (It makes no sense to be shooting brass cased Federal M193 out of it either.)

There's absolutely nothing wrong with steel cased ammunition. With Wolf/Tula you're getting cheaper, dirtier, less accurate ammunition. If you shoot twice per year, saving $1.50 on a box of handgun ammo is no big deal. If you're on a budget and shoot more though, $30 to $100 per case adds up.

It's just my opinion, but to me, insisting on shooting premium brass cased ammo out of Glocks at 7 yards isn't all that different from putting premium gas in a subcompact Hyundai used to commute to work.


Except most of us will keep our guns a lot longer than Hyundai subcompact and value them more.:D
 
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Alright, sorry to resurrect a 2 month old thread, butI figured it better to ask questions here than start a new thread.

I'm also looking at getting into a pistol in the near future. I am leaning towards a 9mm semi auto, with the thought of eventually getting a concealed carry permit... maybe. My budget is not nearly as nice as the OPs, so I've been looking at some other compact 9mm's. I saw some posts about the Ruger LCP above, but does anybody have any experience with the LC9? I was at a gun show the other day and picked up an LC9 and a Kel Tec PF9. I liked the way they both felt in my hand, but haven't had a chance to shoot either one yet. I'm going to a range that rents next week, hoping they have both in stock. Anybody on here have any experience with either of those firearms?

I think that I would go with a Glock 26, if I had the money, at least if I had one of those Pearce Grip extenders... but don't think I can justify the cost of those yet. Any input?

Thanks!
 
Alright, sorry to resurrect a 2 month old thread, butI figured it better to ask questions here than start a new thread.

I'm also looking at getting into a pistol in the near future. I am leaning towards a 9mm semi auto, with the thought of eventually getting a concealed carry permit... maybe. My budget is not nearly as nice as the OPs, so I've been looking at some other compact 9mm's. I saw some posts about the Ruger LCP above, but does anybody have any experience with the LC9? I was at a gun show the other day and picked up an LC9 and a Kel Tec PF9. I liked the way they both felt in my hand, but haven't had a chance to shoot either one yet. I'm going to a range that rents next week, hoping they have both in stock. Anybody on here have any experience with either of those firearms?

I think that I would go with a Glock 26, if I had the money, at least if I had one of those Pearce Grip extenders... but don't think I can justify the cost of those yet. Any input?

Thanks!

A good used Glock 26 runs about $250-300. A Ruger LC9 seems like a solid choice. Alternatively, buy a used Glock 19 or Beretta PX4.

Go to the Glock forum and just get a good used gun.
 
A good used Glock 26 runs about $250-300. A Ruger LC9 seems like a solid choice. Alternatively, buy a used Glock 19 or Beretta PX4.

Go to the Glock forum and just get a good used gun.

I guess I hadn't really entertained used that much. With Glock's reputation for quality, durability, and reliability going used wouldn't be a bad idea, I suppose. I will have to see what the stores in my area have in stock.

Thanks for your advice... I just can't wait to get behind some next week and see what I think.
 
Ill second the used gun route. The first pistol i bought was a used Sig 229 in 40cal.
Still one of my very favorite guns to shoot.

If you decide on going new, I will also put a plug in for the CZ. I have a P-01 and it is a great firearm as well.
 
+1 for CZ - just bought my first handgun about 2 months ago. Picked up a new CZ P-07 duty for about $400. About 500 rounds through it so far, not a glitch. Just a fun gun to shoot.
 
You won't need to pay more than $300 for good, solid used gun. Look at Glocks, Rugers, Smith and wesson, etc. You can't go wrong with a lightly used Ruger 4" GP100 revolver for $300. They are built like tanks. Ditto for a Glock 19 third generation. If Want another tank then get the CZ all metal gun.

If you are ready to get into guns a semi-auto like the Glock 19 is fine. If you want to shoot only once a year and put the gun near your bed buy the Ruger revolver.
 
Necroing (as a pre-med, even) because I don't think this particular forum will mind.

Looking for specifically-tailored recommendations. Yes, I read the whole thread. Yes, per one of the first posts, I'm planning to rent to try out, but would love some recommendations on what to rent.

I've shot .357 Magnum, .380, .38, .40, and 9mm. The recoil is not a problem on any of them. Having tried both, I want a semi-automatic, vs. a revolver, as I enjoy the additional complexity. I will not be carrying, as my state does not allow it, so weight/size/ability to conceal are not issues. I'm interested in acquiring skill at longer distances, not just 7 yards (so accuracy is relatively important to me.) While I'm open on budget for the gun itself, cheap(er) ammo would be nice in anticipation of the switch from six-figure professional back to student in 2013. I specifically do not want a "beginner" gun like a .22 plinker; I'm a firm believer in (where possible) learning by jumping into the deep end. Finally, reliability is important; nothing with frequent FTE/FTF.

Any advice?
 
Necroing (as a pre-med, even) because I don't think this particular forum will mind.

Looking for specifically-tailored recommendations. Yes, I read the whole thread. Yes, per one of the first posts, I'm planning to rent to try out, but would love some recommendations on what to rent.

I've shot .357 Magnum, .380, .38, .40, and 9mm. The recoil is not a problem on any of them. Having tried both, I want a semi-automatic, vs. a revolver, as I enjoy the additional complexity. I will not be carrying, as my state does not allow it, so weight/size/ability to conceal are not issues. I'm interested in acquiring skill at longer distances, not just 7 yards (so accuracy is relatively important to me.) While I'm open on budget for the gun itself, cheap(er) ammo would be nice in anticipation of the switch from six-figure professional back to student in 2013. I specifically do not want a "beginner" gun like a .22 plinker; I'm a firm believer in (where possible) learning by jumping into the deep end. Finally, reliability is important; nothing with frequent FTE/FTF.

Any advice?

Cheap ammo that's not a .22 = something in 9mm
No carry, good accuracy = something full size

I'm partial to Sigs so I'd consider a P226
 
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Necroing (as a pre-med, even) because I don't think this particular forum will mind.

Looking for specifically-tailored recommendations. Yes, I read the whole thread. Yes, per one of the first posts, I'm planning to rent to try out, but would love some recommendations on what to rent.

I've shot .357 Magnum, .380, .38, .40, and 9mm. The recoil is not a problem on any of them. Having tried both, I want a semi-automatic, vs. a revolver, as I enjoy the additional complexity. I will not be carrying, as my state does not allow it, so weight/size/ability to conceal are not issues. I'm interested in acquiring skill at longer distances, not just 7 yards (so accuracy is relatively important to me.) While I'm open on budget for the gun itself, cheap(er) ammo would be nice in anticipation of the switch from six-figure professional back to student in 2013. I specifically do not want a "beginner" gun like a .22 plinker; I'm a firm believer in (where possible) learning by jumping into the deep end. Finally, reliability is important; nothing with frequent FTE/FTF.

Any advice?

You really can't go wrong with a full size 9mm. Sig, Glock, Springfield, etc... Go fondle a few and see what feels best to you.
 
I too am looking to make my first gun purchase. Does anyone have any experience/insight into the Mossberg 500 hs410 shotgun? My main purposes of a gun are for home defense and to occasionally let off some steam. Based on some preliminary internet research I was interested in this gun for the following reasons:

1. It is lightweight for a shotgun (5 lbs maybe?)
2. Has a shorter barrel, thereby making it easier to maneuver indoors
3. Has the advantages of a shotgun: simple and reliable with less of a chance of malfunctioning. We have a baby on the way and I have heard that shotgun bullets tend not to penetrate through walls and there is a much less chance of accidentally firing off.

I have heard that 410's tend to have less stopping power compared to other gauge shotguns but I would think it would get the job done, especially compared to a handgun. There are also a few indoor ranges in my town that allow shotguns so hopefully I can get some practice.

Thanks in advance for the insight and I apologize if this has been covered before.
 
I too am looking to make my first gun purchase. Does anyone have any experience/insight into the Mossberg 500 hs410 shotgun? My main purposes of a gun are for home defense and to occasionally let off some steam. Based on some preliminary internet research I was interested in this gun for the following reasons:

1. It is lightweight for a shotgun (5 lbs maybe?)
2. Has a shorter barrel, thereby making it easier to maneuver indoors
3. Has the advantages of a shotgun: simple and reliable with less of a chance of malfunctioning. We have a baby on the way and I have heard that shotgun bullets tend not to penetrate through walls and there is a much less chance of accidentally firing off.

I have heard that 410's tend to have less stopping power compared to other gauge shotguns but I would think it would get the job done, especially compared to a handgun. There are also a few indoor ranges in my town that allow shotguns so hopefully I can get some practice.

Thanks in advance for the insight and I apologize if this has been covered before.

I think this would be a reasonable selection for the purposes you describe.

Shotgun shells are available which are specifically designed for home defense. These contain shot (as in birdshot, buckshot) typically - multiple small round projectiles - like BB's. Shot sizes are like IV or wire gauges - the smaller the number, the larger the diameter. 00 "double-ought" buckshot or larger with a decent amount of powder behind it could probably penetrate through cheap apartment complex walls.

There are shotgun shells which contain "bullets" (i.e. a single projectile per shell, taking up the diameter of the barrel) but these are called "slugs" or "sabots". Quoth the Ice Cube: "shotgun bullets are bad for your health."

The stopping power will depend on the projectile being fired, the amount of powder behind it, the length of the barrel of the firearm, the distance at which the projectile strikes its target and other factors. .410 shotguns (as opposed to .410 cartridges fired from revolvers) have muzzle energies in the respectable range of 800-1000 foot-pounds (vs about half that or less for .410 shells fired from revolvers.) So yes, a .410 shotgun will have less stopping power than a 12- or 20-gauge. But it will also have less recoil, which increases your chances of making a second shot if needed, particularly as a novice.

I don't know of any reason why a shotgun would be less likely to have a negligent discharge (human error) vs a rifle or handgun. A pump-action shotgun has fewer mechanical parts than an automatic one, so would theoretically be less likely to mechanically malfunction.
 
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I enjoy my 12g shotgun for home defense. For hiking I use a 45-70 guide gun.

I would suggest a shotgun for a firearm if you dont intend on carrying a firearm. For home defense it's pretty easy to use and is okay for neighborhoods. It will also really stop your attackers and is easy to aim.
 
I too am looking to make my first gun purchase. Does anyone have any experience/insight into the Mossberg 500 hs410 shotgun?

.410 is an expert's shotgun for an adult or one for introducing the shotgun to a new shooter. The shells are not cheap and not that available, compared to 12 and 20 gauge. For "letting off steam," unless you are just shooting stationary paper targets, you will likely find it frustrating.

Slugs out of the .410 have less energy than a 45 Long Colt. The .410 slug is not in the same league as the 12 gauge.

.410 has substantially less shot, per shell, and you lose one of the big advantages of a shotgun when you go that size.

We have a baby on the way and I have heard that shotgun bullets tend not to penetrate through walls and there is a much less chance of accidentally firing off.

This is only true for birdshot, which you don't want to use for home defense, especially in the .410 size. The reality is that anything suitable for home defense will penetrate walls quite readily. Hence the import of being skilled with your firearm.

There are lots of choices. As i've mentioned before, I like a carbine style rifle with a simple optic or straight up iron sights. I'm currently enamoured with subsonic 300 blackout as it has about 20% more energy than .45, is relatively quiet (still not hearing safe), and easy to follow up the next shot. I also hate pistol grip shotguns and have a distaste for non-pistol grip rifles That is my preference, however there are lots of choices out there.. The best thing to do is find yours.

My biggest advice is to try some different guns out. See how they feel and shoot.
 
I really like my CZs. Solid. One of my favorite shooters at the range in 9mm
I don't own one, but I tried one at the range and drove nails with it on the first magazine. If I didn't get my little S&W, I would have gotten a CZ.
 
.410 is an expert's shotgun for an adult or one for introducing the shotgun to a new shooter. The shells are not cheap and not that available, compared to 12 and 20 gauge. For "letting off steam," unless you are just shooting stationary paper targets, you will likely find it frustrating.

Slugs out of the .410 have less energy than a 45 Long Colt. The .410 slug is not in the same league as the 12 gauge.

.410 has substantially less shot, per shell, and you lose one of the big advantages of a shotgun when you go that size.



This is only true for birdshot, which you don't want to use for home defense, especially in the .410 size. The reality is that anything suitable for home defense will penetrate walls quite readily. Hence the import of being skilled with your firearm.

There are lots of choices. As i've mentioned before, I like a carbine style rifle with a simple optic or straight up iron sights. I'm currently enamoured with subsonic 300 blackout as it has about 20% more energy than .45, is relatively quiet (still not hearing safe), and easy to follow up the next shot. I also hate pistol grip shotguns and have a distaste for non-pistol grip rifles That is my preference, however there are lots of choices out there.. The best thing to do is find yours.

My biggest advice is to try some different guns out. See how they feel and shoot.

I have Remington HD Ultimate Home Defense Loads in my 12 gauge. They (Remington) say it has good stopping power with decreased wall penetration. BB pellets aren't 000 buck, but putting a few dozen in the chest would get the job done I hope. I thought about getting buck shot, but I decided that decreased wall penetration was desirable. I think the sound alone would send an intruder running though I think having him run away wouldn't be the most satisfying way to deal with a home invasion. First choice- no invasion. Second choice- alarm. Third choice- dead criminal. Fourth choice- criminal runs away.
 
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I too am looking to make my first gun purchase. Does anyone have any experience/insight into the Mossberg 500 hs410 shotgun? My main purposes of a gun are for home defense and to occasionally let off some steam. Based on some preliminary internet research I was interested in this gun for the following reasons:

1. It is lightweight for a shotgun (5 lbs maybe?)
2. Has a shorter barrel, thereby making it easier to maneuver indoors
3. Has the advantages of a shotgun: simple and reliable with less of a chance of malfunctioning. We have a baby on the way and I have heard that shotgun bullets tend not to penetrate through walls and there is a much less chance of accidentally firing off.

I have heard that 410's tend to have less stopping power compared to other gauge shotguns but I would think it would get the job done, especially compared to a handgun. There are also a few indoor ranges in my town that allow shotguns so hopefully I can get some practice.

Thanks in advance for the insight and I apologize if this has been covered before.

The mossberg 500 is a terrific home defense weapon. You can modify the factory setup by adding a short barrel (18.5in "sawed-off") and a pistol grip. This combo is the ideal mod scheme for any close quarter defense. The pistol grip allows for easy maneuverability & firing "around-the-corner," while the short barrel causes a much wider spread pattern, thus optimizing each trigger pull.

Imagine a 2am break-in in your home, the house is dark, you hear the intruder around a corner. With the pistol grip you can hold the gun around the corner and maintain control, fire the weapon, and the large spread will most likely hit and injure the perp without you even seeing or aiming.
 
Other great 1st firearms:

#1 Springfield Armory XDm .45 .40 or 9mm
- the XDm is considered by many to be the 'safest' sidearm out there, as durable & reliable as a Glock, and extremely accurate (is reported to improve ones accuracy due to its uniquely comfortable ergonomics)
- comes in full size, compact, and subcompact

#2 Ruger LCP .380
- this is the lightest .380 out there, carries 7 rounds (chambered), comes with an optional laser sight, and can easily hide in your pants back pocket

#3. Beretta 92fs .40 or 9mm
- this is a classic, still the carry sidearm for US Army & Navy. With its large grip & smooth action, this pistol fires like a Cadillac rides. Also, extra mags for these are dirt cheap since they are turned out in the tens of thousands for the military.
 
I'm currently enamoured with subsonic 300 blackout as it has about 20% more energy than .45, is relatively quiet (still not hearing safe), and easy to follow up the next shot.

My 9.5" 300 BLK SBR is going to meet its suppressor for the first time on Thursday. I have bunch of 208 amax and 220 SMK subsonics loaded up for it. :D

Here in CA it's on an AR pistol lower (no suppressor) and even that is soft shooting from the shoulder.


The only problem with subsonic 300 BLK for for self defense is that there don't seem to be any good 308 bullets in the 200+ grain range that will expand that slow.

But Barnes just released a 110 gr bullet with the right profile for 300 BLK, which is supposed to expand well all the way down to 1300 fps. I bought a few boxes of these and loaded some ... I'm hoping there's a comparable heavy bullet coming.

384909_342401989112006_247775631907976_1326153_289690788_n.jpg
 
I still think my newly built AK would get the job done..
 
The only problem with subsonic 300 BLK for for self defense is that there don't seem to be any good 308 bullets in the 200+ grain range that will expand that slow.

But Barnes just released a 110 gr bullet with the right profile for 300 BLK, which is supposed to expand well all the way down to 1300 fps. I bought a few boxes of these and loaded some ... I'm hoping there's a comparable heavy bullet coming.

True.

I'm using the Hornady 225 gr BTHP. Like the SMK, it is long and the jacket is thin. I have no doubt that it will yaw. I'm not sure it will deform at 1000fps, however. I still think it will get the job done. I may have to invest in a tube of the reusable ballistic putty to see what it does.

The 125gr Nosler Ballistic tip should still expand at 1800fps, not as good as 1300fps. I'll have to look out for the Barnes bullet as that seems pretty good.

Right now I have about 400 subsonics waiting with 50 or so BT and just under 50 125gr SMKs. I need to start reclaiming some brass. :smuggrin:

My stamps should hopefully becoming soon. Its 3 weeks shy of 6 months since they cashed my check.
 
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True.

I'm using the Hornady 225 gr BTHP. Like the SMK, it is long and the jacket is thin. I have no doubt that it will yaw. I'm not sure it will deform at 1000fps, however. I still think it will get the job done. I may have to invest in a tube of the reusable ballistic putty to see what it does.

The 125gr Nosler Ballistic tip should still expand at 1800fps, not as good as 1300fps. I'll have to look out for the Barnes bullet as that seems pretty good.

Right now I have about 400 subsonics waiting with 50 or so BT and just under 50 125gr SMKs. I need to start reclaiming some brass. :smuggrin:

My stamps should hopefully becoming soon. Its 3 weeks shy of 6 months since they cashed my check.

These are them -

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/61...meter-110-grain-flat-base-lead-free-box-of-50

Barnes makes a couple of 110gr .308 bullets in that line, the right product # is 30811. They have a looong plastic ballistic tip so they can be loaded to AR magazine length (2.240" will seat them at the cannelure) and Lee makes a Blackout factory crimp die now that's worth the $11 they want for it.
 
Imagine a 2am break-in in your home, the house is dark, you hear the intruder around a corner. With the pistol grip you can hold the gun around the corner and maintain control, fire the weapon, and the large spread will most likely hit and injure the perp without you even seeing or aiming.

This is terrible advice.

1) Never shoot until you have identified the threat and know what is beyond the threat. Blind shooting is a great way to kill someone you love.

2) Deadly force is realistically only allowed when there is a real threat of rape, great bodily harm or death. This holds even in states with the most liberal castle doctrines. You will have an unpleasant time if you rely on the argument "they were in my house, they must have been a threat." You can and will be prosecuted if looks at all sketchy.

3) At home defense distances, shotguns don't spread that much. More so if you use "Home Defense" type shells which frequently have wads designed to reducing spreading from unchoked guns. At 10 yards, you expect a pattern of 7-10 inches with buckshot. The pattern is closer to 5 inches with some home defense shells. 30 feet is a long distance in most homes. Most hallways are going to be about 36" wide, 3-5 times wider than your best case pattern. Even with optimal spread, you have a very real chance of missing. Keep in mind that you are responsible for where every one of those pellets ends up...and they will penetrate interior and exterior walls. Plus, if your target is armed, they now know where you are and have a very good reason to try and kill you.

Anyone who has a gun for self defense must have reasonable proficiency with the gun. Spray and pray is for the movies.
 
This is terrible advice.

1) Never shoot until you have identified the threat and know what is beyond the threat. Blind shooting is a great way to kill someone you love.

2) Deadly force is realistically only allowed when there is a real threat of rape, great bodily harm or death. This holds even in states with the most liberal castle doctrines. You will have an unpleasant time if you rely on the argument "they were in my house, they must have been a threat." You can and will be prosecuted if looks at all sketchy.

3) At home defense distances, shotguns don't spread that much. More so if you use "Home Defense" type shells which frequently have wads designed to reducing spreading from unchoked guns. At 10 yards, you expect a pattern of 7-10 inches with buckshot. The pattern is closer to 5 inches with some home defense shells. 30 feet is a long distance in most homes. Most hallways are going to be about 36" wide, 3-5 times wider than your best case pattern. Even with optimal spread, you have a very real chance of missing. Keep in mind that you are responsible for where every one of those pellets ends up...and they will penetrate interior and exterior walls. Plus, if your target is armed, they now know where you are and have a very good reason to try and kill you.

Anyone who has a gun for self defense must have reasonable proficiency with the gun. Spray and pray is for the movies.

+1

s_safetyrules.jpg
 
The rear sights on that glock... go past the end of the slide? I don't think this is something I've just never noticed on the ones I've shot, what's up?
 
Oh, sweet, never seen those before! Glocks will certainly outshoot most people's accuracy, but it still seems a weird platform to make a target pistol out of with that trigger pull
 
BadMDs comments are sound&#8230; heed them&#8230;
My 2 cents

1. Even the most obvious case of self-defense will score you a trip the police station, finger printing, and a thorough investigation WILL be performed. You WILL need a defense attorney. This hold true even in a cowboy state like mine that has recently allowed concealed carry WITH OUT a permit, allows guns in bars and has some of the laxest gun control laws in the country. Your decision to brandish a firearm WILL cost you. Make sure the decision to not do so would have cost you more.
2.
2 pulling the trigger generally has the same implications whether or not the
Person dies or not. Be sure your tool is capable of doing the job you think it should do. (My alcoholic redneck 320 pound 6'5 uncle has a .22 short bullet lodged in his sternum. The guy who shot him no longer has teeth, has a plate in his jaw and remains in jail over the incident)

3 Don't confront an intruder, call 911, gather your family, and get into the most defensible position possible. People warrant lethal force, not possessions. Doing this will further build your case for self-defense.

4. Go play paintball. It will give you a sense of how accurate you can shoot when adrenaline is pumping. Decrease accuracy by 90% if the real situation occurs. Also try shooting in the dark. This too is a high probability environment.

5. There is specific home defense ammo for shotguns, pistols, and rifles; their ballistic characteristics are favorable for such an environment.
Guns and ammo had a special on it
http://www.gunsandammo.com/2005/09/10/the-home-defense-shotgun/

Its better to stay out of trouble than to get out of it
 
BadMDs comments are sound… heed them…
My 2 cents

1. Even the most obvious case of self-defense will score you a trip the police station, finger printing, and a thorough investigation WILL be performed. You WILL need a defense attorney. This hold true even in a cowboy state like mine that has recently allowed concealed carry WITH OUT a permit, allows guns in bars and has some of the laxest gun control laws in the country. Your decision to brandish a firearm WILL cost you. Make sure the decision to not do so would have cost you more.
2.
2 pulling the trigger generally has the same implications whether or not the
Person dies or not. Be sure your tool is capable of doing the job you think it should do. (My alcoholic redneck 320 pound 6’5 uncle has a .22 short bullet lodged in his sternum. The guy who shot him no longer has teeth, has a plate in his jaw and remains in jail over the incident)

3 Don’t confront an intruder, call 911, gather your family, and get into the most defensible position possible. People warrant lethal force, not possessions. Doing this will further build your case for self-defense.

4. Go play paintball. It will give you a sense of how accurate you can shoot when adrenaline is pumping. Decrease accuracy by 90% if the real situation occurs. Also try shooting in the dark. This too is a high probability environment.

5. There is specific home defense ammo for shotguns, pistols, and rifles; their ballistic characteristics are favorable for such an environment.
Guns and ammo had a special on it
http://www.gunsandammo.com/2005/09/10/the-home-defense-shotgun/

Its better to stay out of trouble than to get out of it

Solid first post. :thumbup:
 
Thanks a lot for the advice everyone. I have certainly found it helpful.

What is the safest and most convenient way to store a shotgun? I know that Mossberg sells a "Loc (sic) Box" that seems easy to install and fairly secure. However, the gun would not be concealed with this device. Are there recommended safes that are both easily accessible in an emergency yet hidden to the average person that may be coming to my house (maid, plumber, contractor, etc.)?
 
BadMDs comments are sound&#8230; heed them&#8230;
My 2 cents

1. Even the most obvious case of self-defense will score you a trip the police station, finger printing, and a thorough investigation WILL be performed. You WILL need a defense attorney. This hold true even in a cowboy state like mine that has recently allowed concealed carry WITH OUT a permit, allows guns in bars and has some of the laxest gun control laws in the country. Your decision to brandish a firearm WILL cost you. Make sure the decision to not do so would have cost you more.
2.
2 pulling the trigger generally has the same implications whether or not the
Person dies or not. Be sure your tool is capable of doing the job you think it should do. (My alcoholic redneck 320 pound 6'5 uncle has a .22 short bullet lodged in his sternum. The guy who shot him no longer has teeth, has a plate in his jaw and remains in jail over the incident)

3 Don't confront an intruder, call 911, gather your family, and get into the most defensible position possible. People warrant lethal force, not possessions. Doing this will further build your case for self-defense.

4. Go play paintball. It will give you a sense of how accurate you can shoot when adrenaline is pumping. Decrease accuracy by 90% if the real situation occurs. Also try shooting in the dark. This too is a high probability environment.

5. There is specific home defense ammo for shotguns, pistols, and rifles; their ballistic characteristics are favorable for such an environment.
Guns and ammo had a special on it
http://www.gunsandammo.com/2005/09/10/the-home-defense-shotgun/

Its better to stay out of trouble than to get out of it

The Law in Florida is very different than California. While I agree with you 100% the law in Florida is very pro homeowner:


One of the sponsors of the revised "Castle Doctrine" in Florida believed in the sanctimony of the home and the argument of the statute was this, "if someone breaks into your home it is assumed that they have 'malicious intent' and therefore there is no requirement by the homeowner to 'prove' anything." The law assumes that the intruder has malicious intent and therefore the homeowner can use whatever means neccesary to protect himself. The revised law even goes as far as to say that because of this assumption, you CANNOT be charged and that the intruder or their family CANNOT file a civil claim for damages.

Basically, this law in Florida gives the homeowner broad discretion in the defense of his home.

http://www.floridafirearmslaw.com/
 
The Law in Florida is very different than California.

CA actually has a fairly solid castle doctrine law. Not as far reaching as Florida's, but pretty good. If someone breaks into your home in CA, you are presumed to have a reasonable fear of death at his hands, and you have no duty to retreat.

Even so - if you ever shoot someone, anywhere, however justified, it's wise to expect to go to jail for a while, lose your job, pay 10s of thousands in legal costs, possibly risk retaliation from the deceased bad guy's buddies, have your dog taken to the pound and euthanized while you await trial, personal emotional trauma, etc.

All of which beats dying. None of which is worth shooting some scumbag if you're not really in danger ... so castle doctrine or no, if you can safely avoid conflict, let the ****er have your TV and call the cops while you sit someplace safe with your hand cannon of choice. ;)


Also, on the emotional trauma bit above. It's common to hear people speak of hypothetical self defense situations and declare they'd have no remorse or sadness over killing some crackhead rapist cat burglar attacking them. Maybe not. But I've seen enough Marines be absolutely despondent and depressed after killing certifiably bad people in a war, that I won't make any predictions about how anyone (including me) will actually react if that day comes.
 
CA actually has a fairly solid castle doctrine law. Not as far reaching as Florida's, but pretty good. If someone breaks into your home in CA, you are presumed to have a reasonable fear of death at his hands, and you have no duty to retreat.

Even so - if you ever shoot someone, anywhere, however justified, it's wise to expect to go to jail for a while, lose your job, pay 10s of thousands in legal costs, possibly risk retaliation from the deceased bad guy's buddies, have your dog taken to the pound and euthanized while you await trial, personal emotional trauma, etc.

All of which beats dying. None of which is worth shooting some scumbag if you're not really in danger ... so castle doctrine or no, if you can safely avoid conflict, let the ****er have your TV and call the cops while you sit someplace safe with your hand cannon of choice. ;)


Also, on the emotional trauma bit above. It's common to hear people speak of hypothetical self defense situations and declare they'd have no remorse or sadness over killing some crackhead rapist cat burglar attacking them. Maybe not. But I've seen enough Marines be absolutely despondent and depressed after killing certifiably bad people in a war, that I won't make any predictions about how anyone (including me) will actually react if that day comes.

I'm pretty certain that most people on this board including me have no intention of shooting anyone, anytime or anywhere. A good guard dog and fast police response time are the best options; however, I do sleep better at night knowing my trusted weapon(s) is nearby.
 
kuvasz-with-puppy-pictures-8.jpg


PGG's Guard Dog.


The Kuvasz is a dog breed of ancient Hungarian origin. Mention of the breed can be found in old Hungarian texts. It has historically been used to guard livestock, but has been increasingly found in homes as a pet over the last seventy years.
 
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I've meet a dog once that scared the **** out of me as I was delivering a package. This breed, English Mastiff, is one scary/cool breed lol.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJ5Ql6G5T9k[/YOUTUBE]

I made it out okay as a delivery guy (I just dropped something off @ the front porch) but I would have never attempted to open a door or window seeing this breed inside barking at me!
 
The Law in Florida is very different than California. While I agree with you 100% the law in Florida is very pro homeowner

<snip>

The law assumes that the intruder has malicious intent and therefore the homeowner can use whatever means neccesary to protect himself.

Florida does have a very strong castle doctrine, however, the presumption in the law is challengeable.

Far fetched example: You awake post call to find your neighbor's precocious 4 year old has managed to use a rock and break into your house through a sliding glass door. Thuggler is still holding his rock and is advancing toward you. Knowing that this assault tot can cover 21 feet and attack you with his rock in 2 seconds, you end his reign of terror and life of crime with your 12 gauge. It is a pretty safe bet that despite the presumption that baby bone crusher was there to kill you, the prosecutor will likely successfully argue that you should have known that the rock wielding lump of sweetness, clouds and fairies couldn't actually harm you and you could not have reasonably been in fear for your life.

More realistic example: You wake to find an unknown drunk stumble through the afore mentioned sliding glass door, breaking it. He sees you and your Mark 23, and turns to run. You shoot him in the back as he is trying to leaving. While the castle doctrine presumes he was there to hurt you and you were in fear of your life, the prosecutor will argue that his actions clearly demonstrate that he he did not have malicious intention and as he was obviously trying to leave, you were not in fear for your life.

The problem actually gets worse if you tell the police you fired blindly. As you have not seen the target, you could not have been in fear for your life, as you did not know what the treat was. Additionally, if you miss, you can be charged with reckless endangerment and other crimes of negligence as you were not sure of your target.

The problem with a "presumption" is that it is challengeable. Even in what is likely a righteous shoot, the prosecutor can challenge that presumption if things aren't black and white. Oklahoma has a similar castle doctrine, however that didn't protect pharmacist Jerome Ersland when he finished off one of his assailants who was down. The prosecutor successfully overcame the presumption built into the law. Thus, it is very important to actually be in fear for your life and be certain that the target actually represents a threat.
 
Florida does have a very strong castle doctrine, however, the presumption in the law is challengeable.

Far fetched example: You awake post call to find your neighbor's precocious 4 year old has managed to use a rock and break into your house through a sliding glass door. Thuggler is still holding his rock and is advancing toward you. Knowing that this assault tot can cover 21 feet and attack you with his rock in 2 seconds, you end his reign of terror and life of crime with your 12 gauge. It is a pretty safe bet that despite the presumption that baby bone crusher was there to kill you, the prosecutor will likely successfully argue that you should have known that the rock wielding lump of sweetness, clouds and fairies couldn't actually harm you and you could not have reasonably been in fear for your life.

More realistic example: You wake to find an unknown drunk stumble through the afore mentioned sliding glass door, breaking it. He sees you and your Mark 23, and turns to run. You shoot him in the back as he is trying to leaving. While the castle doctrine presumes he was there to hurt you and you were in fear of your life, the prosecutor will argue that his actions clearly demonstrate that he he did not have malicious intention and as he was obviously trying to leave, you were not in fear for your life.

The problem actually gets worse if you tell the police you fired blindly. As you have not seen the target, you could not have been in fear for your life, as you did not know what the treat was. Additionally, if you miss, you can be charged with reckless endangerment and other crimes of negligence as you were not sure of your target.

The problem with a "presumption" is that it is challengeable. Even in what is likely a righteous shoot, the prosecutor can challenge that presumption if things aren't black and white. Oklahoma has a similar castle doctrine, however that didn't protect pharmacist Jerome Ersland when he finished off one of his assailants who was down. The prosecutor successfully overcame the presumption built into the law. Thus, it is very important to actually be in fear for your life and be certain that the target actually represents a threat.

First rule of defense is be careful about the video camera. It can convict you as well as clear you. The pharmacist shot the assailant a second time (then several more times) once he was lying near dead on the ground.

Who in their right mind would should a little kid? I laughed my ass off on that one.

Common sense does apply even in Florida. You need to make a plausible argument/defense for why lethal force was necessary. The key word is "plausible" so 6 bullet holes in the supposed assailant's back really will need quite a story.


http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout...-self-defense-plea-convict-him-174701357.html
 
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