Whats the deal, as a Pre-DO student I'm angry (Residency outlook)

[adamrose]

I was reading an article and came across this:
"Of the 4,455 total residents training in 188 ACGME-accredited radiology residency programs, 88.3% are graduates of U.S. allopathic medical schools, 7.6% are international medical graduates, and 3.9% are osteopathic graduates.1 Dr. Vicki Marx is the director of the radiology program at the University of Southern California Keck School of Medicine, and we asked for her insights into the radiology residency selection process."

3.9%!?? Clearly more 3.9 percent of DOs want to be radiologists. WHAT

My advisors and everyone keep telling me there is really no difference coming out of DO VS. MED school.

can someone sit me down like Im 5 years old and explain to me what the draw back of DO is when it comes to residency?

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[THH]

Although the stigma is slowly being broken down, there is still a very real barrier for DO going into highly competitive fields. The fact is having a DO in your program is still considered to be a sign of a weak program in some circles. If you plan on going into something like Derm or Neurosurgery, be prepared to have less interviews with a 260 than an MD with a 230-240.

By the way....learn to use the search function.

 

[SLC]

DO is by it's very nature going to attract a majority of primary care oriented folks. So there's that.

Then there's the fact that while the pay is good, Radiology is one of the more "precarious" specialties out there. Along with pathology, anytime you don't need a physician physically present with the patient, and your work can be done from anywhere, you run a risk of becoming a target for outsourcing.

Additionally, for many, Radiology is just flat out boring. I did a two week elective rotation and I wanted to claw my face off after about 2 days. I did learn a lot, both about reading imaging studies and about the business issues facing the field; but I could never see myself doing Rads for a living.

Also, Radiology is becoming less and less competitive each passing year. Just 2 or 3 years ago it was one of the toughest specialties to match into, but now it's getting to the point where it's a reasonable goal for an average student.

Lastly, while my school may not be a representative sample; we had two students out of a class of ~112 (~1.7%) with any expressed interest in radiology.

In other words, I wouldn't worry about it!

 

[SnowDoggy44]

I was reading an article and came across this:
"Of the 4,455 total residents training in 188 ACGME-accredited radiology residency programs, 88.3% are graduates of U.S. allopathic medical schools, 7.6% are international medical graduates, and 3.9% are osteopathic graduates.1 Dr. Vicki Marx is the director of the radiology program at the University of Southern California Keck School of Medicine, and we asked for her insights into the radiology residency selection process."

3.9%!?? Clearly more 3.9 percent of DOs want to be radiologists. WHAT

The quote you reference is saying 3.9% of radiology residents in ACGME-accredited training are DOs. NOT 3.9% of DOs want to be radiologists.

Also, don't forget about the 27 diagnostic radiology positions available through the AOA match each year. Based on a 4 year radiology program after internship, that makes for 108 total additional radiology residents on top of the 174 (the 3.9%) you quoted. That makes for ~280 radiology residents who are DOs. Therefore that makes about 6.1% of all US radiology residents DO graduates.

Also keep in mind, the type of students who are attracted to DO schools are on average looking for careers that involve more direct patient care where the osteopathic philosophy and principles apply more appropriately (i.e. not radiology/pathology).

 

[adamrose]

DO is by it's very nature going to attract a majority of primary care oriented folks. So there's that.

Then there's the fact that while the pay is good, Radiology is one of the more "precarious" specialties out there. Along with pathology, anytime you don't need a physician physically present with the patient, and your work can be done from anywhere, you run a risk of becoming a target for outsourcing.

Additionally, for many, Radiology is just flat out boring. I did a two week elective rotation and I wanted to claw my face off after about 2 days. I did learn a lot, both about reading imaging studies and about the business issues facing the field; but I could never see myself doing Rads for a living.

Also, Radiology is becoming less and less competitive each passing year. Just 2 or 3 years ago it was one of the toughest specialties to match into, but now it's getting to the point where it's a reasonable goal for an average student.

Lastly, while my school may not be a representative sample; we had two students out of a class of ~112 (~1.7%) with any expressed interest in radiology.

In other words, I wouldn't worry about it!

Thanks for the in depth response, What I really meant to ask was for IR not DR. Still the same situation?

 

[SnowDoggy44]

Thanks for the in depth response, What I really meant to ask was for IR not DR. Still the same situation?

If you truly want interventional radiology, I suggest you do not go the DO route. Simply too much barrier at this point to make that a reasonable goal for what is currently a very competitive specialty. There is only one IR fellowship through the AOA: Oklahoma State University Med Center - Vascular/Interventional Radiology Fellowship. http://www.healthsciences.okstate.edu/college/resident-intern/osumc_interventional_radiology.cfm

By the time you will have graduated, this program will be available to MDs as well due to the ACGME-AOA merger.

 

[adamrose]

Geez... As a Junior undergrad with a Low Ball GPA this is a sobering thought

 

[dyspareunia]

I was reading an article and came across this:
"Of the 4,455 total residents training in 188 ACGME-accredited radiology residency programs, 88.3% are graduates of U.S. allopathic medical schools, 7.6% are international medical graduates, and 3.9% are osteopathic graduates.1 Dr. Vicki Marx is the director of the radiology program at the University of Southern California Keck School of Medicine, and we asked for her insights into the radiology residency selection process."

3.9%!?? Clearly more 3.9 percent of DOs want to be radiologists. WHAT

My advisors and everyone keep telling me there is really no difference coming out of DO VS. MED school.

can someone sit me down like Im 5 years old and explain to me what the draw back of DO is when it comes to residency?

Like you're 5 years old? ACGME PDs think DOs have cooties.

 

[costales]

Have you done any shadowing and talking to docs? I'm not talking about Dr Google.

 

[adamrose]

I shadowed so far one DO nephrologist for a week. I realize I definitely need to get more experience.

 

[NontradCA]

I don't really buy DO students want to specialize any less than MDs because philosophy. That's a load of bs. I find I hard to believe that premeds (including myself who has paid work in medical care for 5 years) have a solid idea of what being a specialist is on any level enough to justify making a career decision to attend x school.

I believe at the premed level it has more to do with the competitive nature relative to DO students along with prestige and money. I believe that when DO students go through 3rd and 4th year a number of them want to specialize in something competitive but for whatever reason (low board scores, no research, stigma) are unable to do so and ultimately go into primary care. Also realize that the schools themselves have a primary care focus and push this ideology on the students.

 

[group_theory]

Moving to Pre-Osteo

 

[NontradCA]

Geez... As a Junior undergrad with a Low Ball GPA this is a sobering thought

Then get your GPA up. Take an extra year if you have to.

 

[adamrose]

"Ambassador of Hope" I laughed. thanks for the positive reinforcement

Then get your GPA up. Take an extra year if you have to.

 

[NontradCA]

"Ambassador of Hope" I laughed. thanks for the positive reinforcement

Yea there's hope that you can still do better....you don't think so?

 

[Superman DO]

We had someone match USC radiology this year.

 

[cliquesh]

Thanks for the in depth response, What I really meant to ask was for IR not DR. Still the same situation?

Interventional radiology will be breaking off of diagnostic radiology in the next few years and it will be its own residency, opposed to a fellowship of diagnostic radiology, so the future of IR and DOs is uncertain.

In 2013, 13 DOs matched IR. There were 223 spots available. That means roughly 6% (13/223) of spots went to DOs, which is slightly more than the percentage of DOs in diagnostic radiology any given year .

As of now, its not very hard to match radiology SOMEWHERE as a DO. Being a slightly above average med student with usmle board scores in the upper 220's or the low 230s will get you in somewhere.

The surgical subspecialties (except for AOA ortho), derm, and rad onc are unlikely as a DO, but there are rare exceptions, of course.

The acgme match rate this year was 77% for DOs, which is the highest its been, at least in recent years, so the outlook for DOs might be bright. However, due to the looming residency "crunch" and the recent explosion of medical schools, MD and DO alike, who knows what will happen.

 

[petyr_baelish]

IR is getting it's own residency? I heard a few years ago they were having a turf war with neurosurgeons and interventional cardiologists. So I guess they won.

 

[SLC]

I don't really buy DO students want to specialize any less than MDs because philosophy. That's a load of bs...

Suit yourself, but when you hit DO school and <50% of your classmates want Family Med you'll remember this post.

I'm in 3rd year and that segment of my class hasn't changed.

 

[EMDO2018]

I was looking at @ 2013 match stats and it seems that only 75% of DOs that apply for ACGME residencies match vs 50% for IMGs, or am I ujst reading this chart wrong?


TABLE 4, PAGE 23

http://b83c73bcf0e7ca356c80-e8560f4...ontent/uploads/2013/08/resultsanddata2013.pdf

 

[cliquesh]

I was looking at @ 2013 match stats and it seems that only 75% of DOs that apply for ACGME residencies match vs 50% for IMGs, or am I ujst reading this chart wrong?


TABLE 4, PAGE 23

http://b83c73bcf0e7ca356c80-e8560f4...ontent/uploads/2013/08/resultsanddata2013.pdf

you are reading it correctly. The numbers are PRE-soap, however, so more DOs and IMG will enter an acgme residency.

 

[SLC]

Thanks for the in depth response, What I really meant to ask was for IR not DR. Still the same situation?

IR is a cool field, but not so cool that I could stomach 4 years of general rads residency to get there. Not to mention the chance that you don't get fellowship and are stuck in DR.

Also, IR is one of the hardest hit by reimbursement cuts

 

[Postictal Raiden]

Interventional radiology will be breaking off of diagnostic radiology in the next few years and it will be its own residency, opposed to a fellowship of diagnostic radiology, so the future of IR and DOs is uncertain.

In 2013, 13 DOs matched IR. There were 223 spots available. That means roughly 6% (13/223) of spots went to DOs, which is slightly more than the percentage of DOs in diagnostic radiology any given year .

As of now, its not very hard to match radiology SOMEWHERE as a DO. Being a slightly above average med student with usmle board scores in the upper 220's or the low 230s will get you in somewhere.

The surgical subspecialties (except for AOA ortho), derm, and rad onc are unlikely as a DO, but there are rare exceptions, of course.

The acgme match rate this year was 77% for DOs, which is the highest its been, at least in recent years, so the outlook for DOs might be bright. However, due to the looming residency "crunch" and the recent explosion of medical schools, MD and DO alike, who knows what will happen.

Looking at this year's match results, 6355 pgy-1 positions went to IMG's and FMG's. IMO, there's still enough room for expansion before US grads feel the real crunch. Besides, residency positions this year are nearly 500 slots more than last year's. At this rate, the residency pgy-1 positions are expanding at a rate higher than that of US medical grads.

 

[DOAZ31]

I was reading an article and came across this:
"Of the 4,455 total residents training in 188 ACGME-accredited radiology residency programs, 88.3% are graduates of U.S. allopathic medical schools, 7.6% are international medical graduates, and 3.9% are osteopathic graduates.1 Dr. Vicki Marx is the director of the radiology program at the University of Southern California Keck School of Medicine, and we asked for her insights into the radiology residency selection process."

3.9%!?? Clearly more 3.9 percent of DOs want to be radiologists. WHAT

My advisors and everyone keep telling me there is really no difference coming out of DO VS. MED school.

can someone sit me down like Im 5 years old and explain to me what the draw back of DO is when it comes to residency?

All I read in this is, DOs are not competitive, DOs all go into primary care. Let's drop some facts. There's about a quarter of the number of DO schools than MD schools. So the number of DO applicants for residency every year is very low compared to MD students, hell even carribean have more students. So I'm going to estimate, in 2013 there somewhere around 16,000 MD applicants, 2,000 DO applicants, and 2,700 carribean or FMGs. So roughly ELEVEN percent of residency applicants were DO. Simply put, DO's do get in MD residency, it's not like climbing mount everest, more than 80% of our last year class didn't participate in AOA match and Matched MD. So the real reason is, DO graduates do not even make a dent in the application pool so the numbers are skewed. Yes, there are less DO's in those programs, but at the same time there are less DOs applying. Yeah DO's are known for primary care (EM, FM,IM) but the biggest chunk of MD students also go IM. To say that it is because DOs have lower board scores, class rank what have you is clearly false. We had 2 guys last year go neurosurge, 3 Derm, 1 IR so I mean clearly it is not because, " DOs are a sign of weakness in a program." It is just numbers, if you go to a DO program, work hard, get good board scores, great clinical grades there's no reason a residency programs going to be like, oh hey DO later bro. Just put your head down and work hard, youre not even in med school yet.

 

[keunglh]

All I read in this is, DOs are not competitive, DOs all go into primary care. Let's drop some facts. There's about a quarter of the number of DO schools than MD schools. So the number of DO applicants for residency every year is very low compared to MD students, hell even carribean have more students. So I'm going to estimate, in 2013 there somewhere around 16,000 MD applicants, 2,000 DO applicants, and 2,700 carribean or FMGs. So roughly ELEVEN percent of residency applicants were DO. Simply put, DO's do get in MD residency, it's not like climbing mount everest, more than 80% of our last year class didn't participate in AOA match and Matched MD. So the real reason is, DO graduates do not even make a dent in the application pool so the numbers are skewed. Yes, there are less DO's in those programs, but at the same time there are less DOs applying. Yeah DO's are known for primary care (EM, FM,IM) but the biggest chunk of MD students also go IM. To say that it is because DOs have lower board scores, class rank what have you is clearly false. We had 2 guys last year go neurosurge, 3 Derm, 1 IR so I mean clearly it is not because, " DOs are a sign of weakness in a program." It is just numbers, if you go to a DO program, work hard, get good board scores, great clinical grades there's no reason a residency programs going to be like, oh hey DO later bro. Just put your head down and work hard, youre not even in med school yet.

Just a quick question about DO's trying to match for MD residencies and the process? Is it that DO's take the USMLE and then they try and match with MD residencies? if so aren't they at a disadvantage because the two tests (comlex and usmle) are different?

 

[DOAZ31]

Just a quick question about DO's trying to match for MD residencies and the process? Is it that DO's take the USMLE and then they try and match with MD residencies? if so aren't they at a disadvantage because the two tests (comlex and usmle) are different?

Yes and no, disadvantaged because we have to take two tests, which sucks, but all of my schoolmates use Uworld, First Aid, and pathoma, the same stuff MDs use. We just have to use another book called Saverese for our OMM component on the COMLEX. So DO's usually take the USMLE first, then 1-2 weeks later, take COMLEX.

 

[THH]

All I read in this is, DOs are not competitive, DOs all go into primary care. Let's drop some facts. There's about a quarter of the number of DO schools than MD schools. So the number of DO applicants for residency every year is very low compared to MD students, hell even carribean have more students. So I'm going to estimate, in 2013 there somewhere around 16,000 MD applicants, 2,000 DO applicants, and 2,700 carribean or FMGs. So roughly ELEVEN percent of residency applicants were DO. Simply put, DO's do get in MD residency, it's not like climbing mount everest, more than 80% of our last year class didn't participate in AOA match and Matched MD. So the real reason is, DO graduates do not even make a dent in the application pool so the numbers are skewed. Yes, there are less DO's in those programs, but at the same time there are less DOs applying. Yeah DO's are known for primary care (EM, FM,IM) but the biggest chunk of MD students also go IM. To say that it is because DOs have lower board scores, class rank what have you is clearly false. We had 2 guys last year go neurosurge, 3 Derm, 1 IR so I mean clearly it is not because, " DOs are a sign of weakness in a program." It is just numbers, if you go to a DO program, work hard, get good board scores, great clinical grades there's no reason a residency programs going to be like, oh hey DO later bro. Just put your head down and work hard, youre not even in med school yet.

Which DO school last year had two ACGME Neurosurgery matches, three ACGME Derm matches, and a direct ACGME IR match?

 

[keunglh]

Yes and no, disadvantaged because we have to take two tests, which sucks, but all of my schoolmates use Uworld, First Aid, and pathoma, the same stuff MDs use. We just have to use another book called Saverese for our OMM component on the COMLEX. So DO's usually take the USMLE first, then 1-2 weeks later, take COMLEX.

So essentially both DO's and MD's are tested on the same material, except DO's have the OMM component to worry about am I correct? I remember I read somewhere that each test have its own structure and format of wording that would be unfamiliar to the other who does not normally take it. So basically for DO's they'd have to take twice as many practice tests really.

 

[THH]

So essentially both DO's and MD's are tested on the same material, except DO's have the OMM component to worry about am I correct? I remember I read somewhere that each test have its own structure and format of wording that would be unfamiliar to the other who does not normally take it. So basically for DO's they'd have to take twice as many practice tests really.

Yes, there are structural differences, etc, and generally speaking the COMLEX is a terribly written exam. However, if you know your stuff for USMLE, you're going to do fine on COMLEX too.

 

[Beth_W737]

You don't have to take twice as many practice tests, you just get 2 q-banks, Uworld and Combank/Comquest to give you both question styles. 4th year DO student. Also many of us apply both AOA and ACGME so if we match AOA we get pulled out of the allo match. I think a lot of top DO schools have matches in mid 90s when you add both DO and MD.

 

[DOAZ31]

Which DO school last year had two ACGME Neurosurgery matches, three ACGME Derm matches, and a direct ACGME IR match?

Sorry not direct but Rad match and Pathology a yale the year before, but i'm not at liberty to say to remain anonymous, but I know the 2 neurosurge matches very well, both DO neurosurge residencies, but there were 3 derm acgme matches.

 

[hallowmann]

The quote you reference is saying 3.9% of radiology residents in ACGME-accredited training are DOs. NOT 3.9% of DOs want to be radiologists.
...

Exactly what I was thinking when I read the OP.

I don't really buy DO students want to specialize any less than MDs because philosophy. That's a load of bs. I find I hard to believe that premeds (including myself who has paid work in medical care for 5 years) have a solid idea of what being a specialist is on any level enough to justify making a career decision to attend x school.

I believe at the premed level it has more to do with the competitive nature relative to DO students along with prestige and money. I believe that when DO students go through 3rd and 4th year a number of them want to specialize in something competitive but for whatever reason (low board scores, no research, stigma) are unable to do so and ultimately go into primary care. Also realize that the schools themselves have a primary care focus and push this ideology on the students.

I buy it, but it might be very school dependent and region dependent (for example, it seems like a lot of people at LECOM-B want to specialize - many via IM). At my school, there really are a ton of people who want to do FM or Peds. There's people who want to do Geriatrics-FM, rural med (surprising number of those - mainly people from small/rural towns), etc. Some of these people are former PAs that know what the work entails. And this is in MS1, not MS3 after getting a low board score.

Now there are a lot of people who want to specialize too, but its closer to 50/50 than the MD average of 25/75. I don't think it has anything to do with philosophy, but is more or less just self-selection. Plus, like you mention the schools have a primary care focus, so when most of your preceptors and faculty are FM docs, its more likely you'll find a role model in FM that you want to be like.

FM, IM, Peds, they're not bad gigs for some (for a lot of people that's what they picture when they say "I want to be a doctor"), it just happens that due to the payment distribution, people view it as risky/"not worth it". I think if payment of FM was on par with other 3-4 yr residencies, you'd see a lot more MDs going into it.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Exactly what I was thinking when I read the OP.



I buy it, but it might be very school dependent and region dependent (for example, it seems like a lot of people at LECOM-B want to specialize - many via IM). At my school, there really are a ton of people who want to do FM or Peds. There's people who want to do Geriatrics-FM, rural med (surprising number of those - mainly people from small/rural towns), etc. Some of these people are former PAs that know what the work entails. And this is in MS1, not MS3 after getting a low board score.

Now there are a lot of people who want to specialize too, but its closer to 50/50 than the MD average of 25/75. I don't think it has anything to do with philosophy, but is more or less just self-selection. Plus, like you mention the schools have a primary care focus, so when most of your preceptors and faculty are FM docs, its more likely you'll find a role model in FM that you want to be like.

FM, IM, Peds, they're not bad gigs for some (for a lot of people that's what they picture when they say "I want to be a doctor"), it just happens that due to the payment distribution, people view it as risky/"not worth it". I think if payment of FM was on par with other 3-4 yr residencies, you'd see a lot more MDs going into it.

I have met a surprising number of people interested in primary care, and I've met a few non-trad that wouldn't want to do a long residency such as those found in surgery. I am one of them.

Another thing is that MD may attract some of the most hyper competitive and prestige driven people. Anyone have any interesting data on MD students? I wonder if more people come from richer background or if people from certain ethnicities that push for a more lavish lifestyle are entering MD.

 

[NontradCA]

I have met a surprising number of people interested in primary care, and I've met a few non-trad that wouldn't want to do a long residency such as those found in surgery. I am one of them.

Another thing is that MD may attract some of the most hyper competitive and prestige driven people. Anyone have any interesting data on MD students? I wonder if more people come from richer background or if people from certain ethnicities that push for a more lavish lifestyle are entering MD.

It's really hard to tell by looking at the data. MD schools have more URMs and less white students than DO schools. When you look at the total number of students in each group though, it really makes to difference to warrant any kind of speculation of race/ethnicity to lifestyle. The demographics for the super majority are similar for both; >75% white/asian.

It's also >75% with parents having a college degree and >30% having a physician family member.

Brb doctors come from privilege
Brb nepotism

 

[mcloaf]

>30% having a physician family member.

FWIW I really didn't appreciate this statistic until I saw it first hand, you almost feel like an outsider for NOT having a physician family member sometimes.

 

[Doc Surge]

Which DO school last year had two ACGME Neurosurgery matches, three ACGME Derm matches, and a direct ACGME IR match?

I don't know about two ACGME Neurosurgery matches from the same school, but I met a PGY-1 ACGME Neurosurgery resident who just graduated from LECOM. Great guy, he is very personable and outgoing. He spoke with me for a bit about his experiences going through a DO school and matching into a hyper-competetive ACGME residency.

 

[cliquesh]

I have met a surprising number of people interested in primary care, and I've met a few non-trad that wouldn't want to do a long residency such as those found in surgery. I am one of them.

Another thing is that MD may attract some of the most hyper competitive and prestige driven people. Anyone have any interesting data on MD students? I wonder if more people come from richer background or if people from certain ethnicities that push for a more lavish lifestyle are entering MD.

I think most pre-meds, MDs and DOs, want to be doctors for money/financial security/prestige or social status. Its not just an MD issue. Medicine, unfortunately, is not filled with altruistic people.

 

[mcloaf]

I don't know about two ACGME Neurosurgery matches from the same school, but I met a PGY-1 ACGME Neurosurgery resident who just graduated from LECOM. Great guy, he is very personable and outgoing. He spoke with me for a bit about his experiences going through a DO school and matching into a hyper-competetive ACGME residency.

I don't know if nsurg falls into the category of hyper competitive. IMO that's reserved for plastics, derm, uro, ent, and the like. Neurosurg really isn't very appealing to most reasonable medical students.

 

[cliquesh]

I don't know if nsurg falls into the category of hyper competitive. IMO that's reserved for plastics, derm, uro, ent, and the like. Neurosurg really isn't very appealing to most reasonable medical students.

yea, i dont get it. NS has a high board score average, but who wants to do a 7 year residency plus fellowship at 70 hrs a week?

 

[NontradCA]

I don't know if nsurg falls into the category of hyper competitive. IMO that's reserved for plastics, derm, uro, ent, and the like. Neurosurg really isn't very appealing to most reasonable medical students.

yea, i dont get it. NS has a high board score average, but who wants to do a 7 year residency plus fellowship at 70 hrs a week?

7 year residency
70 hrs a week
7 figure salary

 

[mcloaf]

7 year residency
70 hrs a week
7 figure salary

Yeah I'd want a 7 figure salary so I could afford a nice car to sleep in when I can never leave the hospital.

 

[NontradCA]

Yeah I'd want a 7 figure salary so I could afford a nice car to sleep in when I can never leave the hospital.

Haha.

 

[NontradCA]

I think most pre-meds, MDs and DOs, want to be doctors for money/financial security/prestige or social status. Its not just an MD issue. Medicine, unfortunately, is not filled with altruistic people.

You say unfortunately, but to get ahead in medicine, (which will net you more money/prestige/status) wouldn't you say that physicians need to provide the best care possible and at least appear to be empathetic and keep up the highest degree of professionalism?

 

[cliquesh]

You say unfortunately, but to get ahead in medicine, (which will net you more money/prestige/status) wouldn't you say that physicians need to provide the best care possible and at least appear to be empathetic and keep up the highest degree of professionalism?

No, not really. Research and publications will get you get your farther in academics than being a good physician. Additionally, you get paid based on volume; not quality.

A narcissistic, well published, physician who acts polite for a 10 minute interaction with a patient and then proceeds to make fun of them after they exit the room and then goes on to berate the house staff, can still provide excellent care.

I was just saying that most doctors are not selfless good people who initially entered medicine solely to help the ill. I didn't. I did it because I like science and I wanted job security for my family.

 

[hallowmann]

I don't know about two ACGME Neurosurgery matches from the same school, but I met a PGY-1 ACGME Neurosurgery resident who just graduated from LECOM. Great guy, he is very personable and outgoing. He spoke with me for a bit about his experiences going through a DO school and matching into a hyper-competetive ACGME residency.

We also apparently have an ACGME RadOnc match this year. LECOM-E I believe. It probably says a lot about the person, i.e. they worked incredibly hard to get there.

 

[NontradCA]

No, not really. Research and publications will get you get your farther in academics than being a good physician. Additionally, you get paid based on volume; not quality.

A narcissistic, well published, physician who acts polite for a 10 minute interaction with a patient and then proceeds to make fun of them after they exit the room and then goes on to berate the house staff, can still provide excellent care.

I was just saying that most doctors are not selfless good people who initially entered medicine solely to help the ill. I didn't. I did it because I like science and I wanted job security for my family.

Yes I agree. But I think Id rather be one former. It's not like you can't be genuine and not get ahead. I worked in an IM clinic in the Navy and our department head was a harvard grad and BC IM. The interventional cards guy was USUHS.

I remember that all the MAs and Nurses would be swooning over our department head, because he had that tennis club, I'm not a common folk kind of attitude. The patients seemed to like him (I couldn't exactly be sure).

Well our cardiologist was the most personable humble guy I've ever met, and no one seemed to give a **** about him. My colleague at the time was talking about how much he admired our DH and I couldn't understand why. Until I had a conversation with him about me going to BUD/S. He told me he would only ever be a seal if he could be an officer and have a officer pin as well as a trident.

My DH didn't even know my name. Anytime I showed interest in the heart the cards guy would always be willing to explain things to me in simple terms. When he heard I was heading off to an infantry unit he gave me some books and notes on trauma management, as well as didactic stuff every Friday.

Looking back I should've been more grateful, because I thought all docs and members of the military "team" should be this way. But this guy was moonlighting 20 hrs a week in Cath lab at the local level 1 because we were so small he didn't get to do his interventional stuff there.

I was much more confident going for my "field med" and live tissue training than I would've been if I hadn't studied and had those didactics. Well I ended up using quite a bit of trauma management in several places, whether it was teaching it to Marines, treating Marines, or local villagers when deployed.

Fast forward a year and a half I was in a hospital, my MO personally visited me several times and took part in my care/advocated for what I wanted. Those two experiences made me want to be that kind of physician and for no other reason made my time put into ****ty situations in the military worth it. I know that's very hallmark sounding, but showing that you care goes a long way and it's easy to tell when someone is being fake.

TL;DR
I think the caring physicians are more likely to have better compliance and make more of an impact than those out for themselves. This may be naive but I'd rather keep up this optimism for as long as I can.

 

[pietachok]

3.9%!?? Clearly more 3.9 percent of DOs want to be radiologists. WHAT

My advisors and everyone keep telling me there is really no difference coming out of DO VS. MED school.

can someone sit me down like Im 5 years old and explain to me what the draw back of DO is when it comes to residency?

I didn't read all of the thread, so I apologize if this is repeat info/conjecture:
-I think there is some self selection out of DO by people who know/think they want to go into competitive specialties. A pre-med who wants to do a ROAD specialty will probably be more likely to endure multiple admissions cycles to try to get an MD acceptance than someone whose ultimate goal is to return to their hometown to be a GP. This will drop the % of applicants to such specialties in the DO pool vs the MD pool.
-That 3.9% is in ACGME programs as others have noted. When you're a 2nd year student, some people just decide taking USMLE in addition to COMLEX is not worth it to them for quality of life issues or because of their COMLEX score -- they will be less likely to land an ACGME spot but may be matching into AOA rads positions.
-Exposure. Osteopathic programs are less likely to have a really tight relationship with a single/few teaching hospitals. At such schools, you'll just be less likely to have an incidental interaction with an enthusiastic radiology instructor who excites you to explore rads, and it also means it's that much harder to get exposure to fields outside of the core (FM, IM, Peds, Surg, OB/GYN, Psych), b/c many of those schools require you to arrange the electives for yourself. It's a pain in the butt to do the applications and to relocate for them, so people who were sort of on the fence are less likely to try the rotation out than if you're at a school where you just sign up for it (many MD schools work this way) . . . .that means fewer students sign up for such a rotation b/c it's reputed to be easy and then incidentally discover they love it and want to pursue it for residency.
-I don't think you can discredit the impact of being discouraged. Some of my DO friends got really pessimistic advising (maybe to protect match stats?) and were really guided away from their first choice fields, and that would drag down the 3.9%. Since you can apply to multiple specialties, this is a sad factor -- aim for your ideal and the number of II's will tell you whether you're competitive or need to refocus on interviews in your "plan B" field. If you're investing hundreds of thousands on your training, it's ridiculous to pinch pennies when it comes to (relatively cheap) applications and then wonder "what if" forever after.

 

[cliquesh]

Yes I agree. But I think Id rather be one former. It's not like you can't be genuine and not get ahead. I worked in an IM clinic in the Navy and our department head was a harvard grad and BC IM. The interventional cards guy was USUHS.

I remember that all the MAs and Nurses would be swooning over our department head, because he had that tennis club, I'm not a common folk kind of attitude. The patients seemed to like him (I couldn't exactly be sure).

Well our cardiologist was the most personable humble guy I've ever met, and no one seemed to give a **** about him. My colleague at the time was talking about how much he admired our DH and I couldn't understand why. Until I had a conversation with him about me going to BUD/S. He told me he would only ever be a seal if he could be an officer and have a officer pin as well as a trident.

My DH didn't even know my name. Anytime I showed interest in the heart the cards guy would always be willing to explain things to me in simple terms. When he heard I was heading off to an infantry unit he gave me some books and notes on trauma management, as well as didactic stuff every Friday.

Looking back I should've been more grateful, because I thought all docs and members of the military "team" should be this way. But this guy was moonlighting 20 hrs a week in Cath lab at the local level 1 because we were so small he didn't get to do his interventional stuff there.

I was much more confident going for my "field med" and live tissue training than I would've been if I hadn't studied and had those didactics. Well I ended up using quite a bit of trauma management in several places, whether it was teaching it to Marines, treating Marines, or local villagers when deployed.

Fast forward a year and a half I was in a hospital, my MO personally visited me several times and took part in my care/advocated for what I wanted. Those two experiences made me want to be that kind of physician and for no other reason made my time put into ****** situations in the military worth it. I know that's very hallmark sounding, but showing that you care goes a long way and it's easy to tell when someone is being fake.

TL;DR
I think the caring physicians are more likely to have better compliance and make more of an impact than those out for themselves. This may be naive but I'd rather keep up this optimism for as long as I can.

Being a good, caring doctor and being a successful doctor (depending on how you define success) are not synonymous, which I think your story illustrates. They are, however, not mutually exclusive either. I hope you make it. I gave up on humanity after my 2nd rotation 3rd year.

 

[NontradCA]

Being a good, caring doctor and being a successful doctor (depending on how you define success) are not synonymous, which I think your story illustrates. They are, however, not mutually exclusive either. I hope you make it. I gave up on humanity after my 2nd rotation 3rd year.

Thanks. I hope so too. What specifically in your 2nd rotation lead you to this?

 

[cliquesh]

Thanks. I hope so too. What specifically in your 2nd rotation lead you to this?

Just a bunch of drug seekers threatening to sue me or physical harm me if I didn't succumb to their demands. I was all excited to change the world, like you, but those patients, as well as many future patients, crushed my spirit and I never got it back, which is partially why I only considered anesthesia, radiology and pathology.