Whats the deal with general dentists and orthodontics?

[str8ner]

Where did you get that info? As far as I know, that is false. It was highest in the 80's, which is why many schools closed.
http://www.adea.org/deansbriefing/documents/finalreviseddeans/dentistsdemographics.pdf

It is true. Look up the ADA data and compare it the US census.

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[Screwtape]

From the source I linked above :
"Compared to 1980, the ratio of graduating dentists to US population in 1990, 2000, and 2010 is significantly different.

In 1980, there were more than 6,000 graduates and the US population was about 227 million, or a ratio of about one graduating dentist for every 38,000 Americans.

In 1990, there were less than 4,000 graduates and the US population was about 250 million, or a ratio of about one graduating dentist for every 62,500 Americans.

In 2000, there were about 4,200 graduates and the US population was about 281 million, or a ratio of about one graduating dentist for every 67,000 Americans.

In 2010, there were about 4,800 graduates and the US population was about 308 million, or a ratio of about one graduating dentist for every 64,000 Americans.

In 2020, if we assume that every one of the new schools under consideration was to open with an average class size of 85 (graduating class size of about 6,200) and the US population is estimated to be 335 million, then the ratio would be about one graduating dentist for every 54,000 Americans. We know that all of these new dental schools under consideration are not going to open. If we assume a more reasonable graduating class size of about 5,600, then the ratio in 2020 would be about one graduating dentist for every 60,000 Americans. "

I guess this is just graduating dentists and doesn't take into account for practicing dentists. But seeing the huge amount of baby boomer dentists I would assume it would just shift the ratio that much more in the near future. When I have more time I'll try and look up the specifics.

 

[TuckerT21]

Don't be mean...

And OP, honestly, if you want to do orthodontics, do the residency and get your ABO cert. Things will be that much easier.

I want to do GB/TR, implants, gum grafts, etc. I *could* just take a bunch of perio and implantology CME, but I'd much rather do a perio/implantology residency where I can learn on actual patients while being taught by certified periodontists and implantologists.

You have no idea how much board certification is worth.

Exactly how much is board certification worth? I have talked pretty extensively to both my attending periodontists and prosthodontists and it means absolutely NOTHING. I have also spoken pretty extensively with one of the ortho residents at my school and he says board certification means absolutely nothing for their future career outside of the education-realm. How many times has a dentist/specialist told you the patient asked if he was board certified?

Now in saying all that, I do agree that if all you want to do is slap implants in and do gum grafts all day OR just do ortho and nothing else, you should specialize in whatever said specialty goes with said procedures. Spend your time doing only one thing. To the original poster here is some food for thought: My school has a prestigious ortho residency. They see approximately 40-50 cases all the way through their 26 months + some pick-ups where they finish the last few months of a case that was started before they got to residency. Because the program is only 2 years, they have to get the cases started right away so they don't even make any treatment plan decisions, which is 99% of what an orthodontist does. They do learn a lot in their residency, but the majority of them have to come out and work under/with an experienced orthodontist for 3-5 years before they are ready to be on their own. Orthodontists (and every other kind of dentist) gets good/great 5-20 years after they graduate when they have practiced evidence based dentistry alongside clinical judgment calls after seeing thousands and thousands of cases. Dentistry is something that you get really good at over time. Every would-be specialist on here as well as in the education world absolutely loves to bash the GP that messes up a case in ortho/oms/perio/endo, but there are just a lot of bad dentists out there whether they are GP's or specialists. You never hear a specialist say another specialists sucks, but in the US they became a specialist because they were pretty high in their class. They could have been mediocre-bad in clinic but had such high didactic grades that they made it in. Lets take some arbitrary %: If there are 25% of GP's out there that aren't very good clinically and don't make good clinical, scientific decisions there are also 25% of specialists out there that do the same.

 

[Contach]

You never hear a specialist say another specialists sucks, but in the US they became a specialist because they were pretty high in their class. They could have been mediocre-bad in clinic but had such high didactic grades that they made it in. Lets take some arbitrary %: If there are 25% of GP's out there that aren't very good clinically and don't make good clinical, scientific decisions there are also 25% of specialists out there that do the same.

I don't follow your argument here... And I also disagree with what I think you are getting at...
I think dentists are more far removed from science than specialists because their formal training stops once they leave dental school. From what I experienced in dental school - we rarely read scientific papers. What residency offers (which all specialists go through) is the ability to search for, understand and critically appraise articles. Learning these skills is important to making good clinical, scientific decisions. Thus, I believe a higher percentage of specialists are likely to have best evidence guiding their clinical decisions. Not to mention... you can't expect dentists to be as up-to-date on all areas of dentistry, as you would expect someone who focuses on only a few procedures.

Side Note: why does everyone think specialists had poor hand skills? Just because you did well in didactics: doesn't mean you are an introvert, suck with your hands, have poor people skills, needed extra years of training to catch up in speed, yaddy yadda yadda...

 

[straightsmile4u]

Hey there, quick question. So I'm about to take my DAT and apply to dental schools, I have a 3.9 and I've worked pretty hard to get to where I'm at today, and I was perfectly prepared (mentally at least) for the work load ahead of me as I continue pursuing my goal of being an orthodontist. I was talking to a family friend tonight who asked me how school was going and what I wanted to do. I explained my plan, and to my surprise, she is an assistant in an ortho office. I instantly started firing off questions and we got on the topic of general dentists who could offer orthodontics. I didn't want to tell someone who's been working in the field for 20+ years that she was wrong, but I was thinking "No way can a general dentist do anything outside invisalign!" After reading how near-impossible it is it get into an ortho program, I assumed that LEGALLY it would be against the law for a general dentist to offer orthodontic treatment. Low and behold, I get home and do some searching and find out that general dentists can practice ortho after doing some weekend continuing education courses! My mind is blown right now. I have some questions for anyone who may know. Thanks everyone .

1) Legally, can a regular dentist seriously do orthodontics if they are properly trained to do so by those continuing education programs or weekend seminars or whatever they're called?

2) What are any "legal" issues associated with this? Can I graduate dental school, attend every ortho seminar known to man, and then open and orthodontic practice? Or do I have to advertise myself as a dentist who also does ortho? Are there any actual LAWS regarding how I advertise myself assuming that I'm just as competent in handling ortho cases as an actual ortho?

3) Do any of you see dentistry and ortho slowly becoming one skill in the future as technology requires less and less work on the ortho's side?

4) Does anyone know or have experience with a general dentist who sees nearly all of his patients for ortho reasons?



Thanks again guys. If this is true, it would lift a huge weight off my chest. I'm super worried that I won't be able to get into ortho. I know I'll do well in dental school, but beating out 90% of my classmates... I'm not for sure I can do that.


Thanks

-Ryan

I am an orthodontist who graduated 10 years ago. The nature of the profession has totally changed in the last 10 years. When first graduated I was totally "in demand" and commanded a lot of respect and a great salary. Overtime the competition increased and a lot of private-practices were closing due to the recession. More patients started going to managed care clinics. There are tons of new expensive ortho programs out there since I graduated. I still think you can be profitable in a small town or rural area, but in major cities, probably not.
My husband is a general dentist and I ended up helping him become experienced in ortho and he is very successful. He only does Invisalign, but treats hard cases and never refers out anymore unless totally surgical. It is an amazing product and really cuts down on the overhead and staff and chair time.
I just work as a consultant, now. Ortho is fun, but it a terrible profession if you have young children because you will never be around after school or on Saturdays for all their major life events.
If I had to do it all over again, I would not specialize. It was 3 years of pure HELL!

 

[jda02624]

Ortho is fun, but it a terrible profession if you have young children because you will never be around after school or on Saturdays for all their major life events.
If I had to do it all over again, I would not specialize. It was 3 years of pure HELL!

Seriously? I'm an orthodontist. I work about 32 hours a week, I don't have to deal with emergencies (that's for my office manager and come on, it's ortho), and I've never worked a weekend in my dental career. I would say it's probably one of the BEST professions for having time for family. I know a lot of parents that work multiple jobs, well over 40 hours a week, just to make ends meet. I'd bet any of them would trade professions with us if they could.

But...if people decide not to specialize in ortho I'm ok with that!

 

[Silent Cool]

Seriously? I'm an orthodontist. I work about 32 hours a week, I don't have to deal with emergencies (that's for my office manager and come on, it's ortho), and I've never worked a weekend in my dental career. I would say it's probably one of the BEST professions for having time for family. I know a lot of parents that work multiple jobs, well over 40 hours a week, just to make ends meet. I'd bet any of them would trade professions with us if they could.

But...if people decide not to specialize in ortho I'm ok with that!

Yeah I was a little bit...befuddled by @straightsmile4u 's comments. Isn't Ortho totally chill?

 

[011110]

I am an orthodontist who graduated 10 years ago. The nature of the profession has totally changed in the last 10 years. When first graduated I was totally "in demand" and commanded a lot of respect and a great salary. Overtime the competition increased and a lot of private-practices were closing due to the recession. More patients started going to managed care clinics. There are tons of new expensive ortho programs out there since I graduated. I still think you can be profitable in a small town or rural area, but in major cities, probably not.
My husband is a general dentist and I ended up helping him become experienced in ortho and he is very successful. He only does Invisalign, but treats hard cases and never refers out anymore unless totally surgical. It is an amazing product and really cuts down on the overhead and staff and chair time.
I just work as a consultant, now. Ortho is fun, but it a terrible profession if you have young children because you will never be around after school or on Saturdays for all their major life events.
If I had to do it all over again, I would not specialize. It was 3 years of pure HELL!

Ortho is the best field in dental for family life. I keep hearing this about ortho, but I am applying anyway. Have you ever worked as a general dentist? More competition, physically draining, and tough financially. I'll take the pay cut to be an ortho any day, trust me.

 

[jda02624]

Ortho is the best field in dental for family life. I keep hearing this about ortho, but I am applying anyway. Have you ever worked as a general dentist? More competition, physically draining, and tough financially. I'll take the pay cut to be an ortho any day, trust me.

Don't worry, you won't. Ortho is a great field, even with all the doom and gloom stuff you'll hear spouted here and elsewhere. Although it's not "totally chill", for what you make and the hours you put in, few professions can beat it. Like you said, it's less physically demanding (you can probably work until you're 80 if you want) and less stress, imo. People don't hate coming to see you. That can take a toll on you mentally over time.
Ortho is not the lucrative field it was in the past, but things change. People that whine and complain about these changes have never had a real job, where you work 50+ hours a week, come home dirty and exhausted, have horrible bosses, etc. Sure we put the time in for the schooling, but in perspective ortho and dentistry in general are great professions. (I think CharlesTweed would agree with me here!)

 

[011110]

I am an orthodontist who graduated 10 years ago. The nature of the profession has totally changed in the last 10 years. When first graduated I was totally "in demand" and commanded a lot of respect and a great salary. Overtime the competition increased and a lot of private-practices were closing due to the recession. More patients started going to managed care clinics. There are tons of new expensive ortho programs out there since I graduated. I still think you can be profitable in a small town or rural area, but in major cities, probably not.
My husband is a general dentist and I ended up helping him become experienced in ortho and he is very successful. He only does Invisalign, but treats hard cases and never refers out anymore unless totally surgical. It is an amazing product and really cuts down on the overhead and staff and chair time.
I just work as a consultant, now. Ortho is fun, but it a terrible profession if you have young children because you will never be around after school or on Saturdays for all their major life events.
If I had to do it all over again, I would not specialize. It was 3 years of pure HELL!

Also, in no way, shape, or form does invisalign cut down on overhead and chair time. At a lab fee of $1800 the lab fee for me as a GP cuts my profit on Invisalign to marginal at best. There is still a good amount of chair time involved as well.