What's the scope of clinical pharmacy ?

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aldolase

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I had a P4 student tell me that clinical pharmacy is a gimmick. You study 8 years + 2 years residency only for your recommendations denied by physicians frequently. I certainly don't want my education go to waste or not valued after spending these many years. I don't want to drop out to go to med school either but every time I think about this, makes me regret. Or is grass greener on other side ?

Retail pharmacy isn't as conceptually stimulating as I thought. Its doing same thing over and over. What percent of recommendations are accepted ? Do you guys feel frustrated that you aren't making a difference ? Real life examples would be appreciated.

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Ive been working for a year, hospital Pharmacy, no residency (for me, personally, it would have been pointless). Every intervention/suggestion Ive made has been accepted. Not one order has gone through that I really didnt agree with. A few "It doesnt make sense but no harm so whatevs" and a few "probably no big deal but the textbook answer is meh so I have to call you about it." This is all instution specific, how you approach the conversation and the type of things you call about.

The best way to be happy with your Pharmacy career is to borrow as little as possible and spend the least amount of years borrowing/not paying down that money as possible. Im convinced.
 
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I haven't quite figured out the reasoning some people have for doing residencies, sounds like a waste of 1-2 years to me. NP's and PA's don't go through that much and they get prescribing authority. Not to say that I think residencies are useless, they're obviously a great learning experience, just wondering why anyone would want to work twice as hard for 1/3 of the pay, then get paid the same or less than a retail pharmacist.

Most of my interventions in retail have been accepted. GPs don't know/don't care about interactions until you point them out, and then they're happy to oblige. But between calling the doctor's office, being put on hold for 10 minutes, talking to 3 different people who keep transferring you to someone else, leaving the message, calling the patient to let them know their RX won't be filled on time, calling the doctor's office again at 4pm because they never called you back, then calling the patient to let them know the outcome - there's not a lot of time. That's why retail pharmacists don't bother with most drug interactions.
 
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Right but that's retail. No one is doing a PGY2 for a retail position. I am talking about a clinical speciality like critical care, oncology etc.
 
I haven't quite figured out the reasoning some people have for doing residencies, sounds like a waste of 1-2 years to me. NP's and PA's don't go through that much and they get prescribing authority. Not to say that I think residencies are useless, they're obviously a great learning experience, just wondering why anyone would want to work twice as hard for 1/3 of the pay, then get paid the same or less than a retail pharmacist.

Most of my interventions in retail have been accepted. GPs don't know/don't care about interactions until you point them out, and then they're happy to oblige. But between calling the doctor's office, being put on hold for 10 minutes, talking to 3 different people who keep transferring you to someone else, leaving the message, calling the patient to let them know their RX won't be filled on time, calling the doctor's office again at 4pm because they never called you back, then calling the patient to let them know the outcome - there's not a lot of time. That's why retail pharmacists don't bother with most drug interactions.

It's all about job stability.

The hospital pharmacy profession is shifting towards favoring/preferring candidates who completed a residency. Most hospital clinical/hybrid jobs are now commonly obtained through networking and a year or more of residency. For a pharmacist with 1-2 years of experience, completing a residency will certainly separate yourself from the average new grads.
 
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Ive been working for a year, hospital Pharmacy, no residency (for me, personally, it would have been pointless). Every intervention/suggestion Ive made has been accepted. Not one order has gone through that I really didnt agree with. A few "It doesnt make sense but no harm so whatevs" and a few "probably no big deal but the textbook answer is meh so I have to call you about it." This is all instution specific, how you approach the conversation and the type of things you call about.

I'm in the exact same boat. I don't call to change something unless it is a big deal, and my docs are always receptive to my input. Just don't call about frivilous things, understand that medicine is very much an art and minor deviations from UpToDate won't kill your patient (and be aware of the drugs where it will), and things will go swimmingly for you. If you can, try to talk to the physicians face to face whenever possible. You are guranteed to get more respect that way, so long as what you are saying is some ridiculous waste of time.
 
Ive been working for a year, hospital Pharmacy, no residency (for me, personally, it would have been pointless). Every intervention/suggestion Ive made has been accepted. Not one order has gone through that I really didnt agree with. A few "It doesnt make sense but no harm so whatevs" and a few "probably no big deal but the textbook answer is meh so I have to call you about it." This is all instution specific, how you approach the conversation and the type of things you call about.

The best way to be happy with your Pharmacy career is to borrow as little as possible and spend the least amount of years borrowing/not paying down that money as possible. Im convinced.

I'm in the exact same boat. I don't call to change something unless it is a big deal, and my docs are always receptive to my input. Just don't call about frivilous things, understand that medicine is very much an art and minor deviations from UpToDate won't kill your patient (and be aware of the drugs where it will), and things will go swimmingly for you. If you can, try to talk to the physicians face to face whenever possible. You are guranteed to get more respect that way, so long as what you are saying is some ridiculous waste of time.

Are you guys talking about staff position and verifying orders ? I was more referring to hybrid or mostly clinical position where you work up patients. For example an oncology pharmacist or any speciality. I am wondering how their job is or if they are being utilized for knowledge. I am willing to do residency but I don't want to see myself not using the specialized knowledge and not having an impact on patient care.
 
I honestly think if you have an opportunity to do residency, go for it. In this saturated climate, a residency will likely help you more than harm you in the long run if you are interested in anything hospital, unless you're the lucky few who get an awesome hospital job post-graduation. To me, that looks like it's happening to very few and far in between.
 
Are you guys talking about staff position and verifying orders ? I was more referring to hybrid or mostly clinical position where you work up patients. For example an oncology pharmacist or any speciality. I am wondering how their job is or if they are being utilized for knowledge. I am willing to do residency but I don't want to see myself not using the specialized knowledge and not having an impact on patient care.

Even as a staff Pharmacist you should be "working up" patients. Everytime you verify the med you check out the profile and look for anything fishy. If youre assigned to a floor you check out whos there, why theyre there and make suggestions. Maybe there are Pharmacists whose jobs it is to suggest chemotherapy regimens when a patient presents with Stage IV B-Cell Lymphoma but I doubt its the norm.

ie: I saw an order come through for a new fentanyl patch, cancer patient on the floor, primed for DC the next day. Checked the med rec, new fentanyl start, only po low dose percocet prior to that. Hmm... did a quick search for her 24 hr morphine requirements, did the math, figured the fentanyl patch was too high, called the doc, he sort of battled me, I suggested go low dose and leave on the breakthrough. He agreed. The low dose knocked the patient without any breakthrough requirements out so they switched to another agent.

Could I have simply verified that order? Absolutely.

Its not about the title, its about your PharmD and what you do with it that will have impact on patient care. Is my example small? Maybe. Have I had more important "interventions?" Of course. Did I give myself a highfive when I checked the chart the next day? Yup. Earworm: Dont need no residency to ride that train
 
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Even as a staff Pharmacist you should be "working up" patients. Everytime you verify the med you check out the profile and look for anything fishy. If youre assigned to a floor you check out whos there, why theyre there and make suggestions. Maybe there are Pharmacists whose jobs it is to suggest chemotherapy regimens when a patient presents with Stage IV B-Cell Lymphoma but I doubt its the norm.

ie: I saw an order come through for a new fentanyl patch, cancer patient on the floor, primed for DC the next day. Checked the med rec, new fentanyl start, only po low dose percocet prior to that. Hmm... did a quick search for her 24 hr morphine requirements, did the math, figured the fentanyl patch was too high, called the doc, he sort of battled me, I suggested go low dose and leave on the breakthrough. He agreed. The low dose knocked the patient without any breakthrough requirements out so they switched to another agent.

Could I have simply verified that order? Absolutely.

Its not about the title, its about your PharmD and what you do with it that will have impact on patient care. Is my example small? Maybe. Have I had more important "interventions?" Of course. Did I give myself a highfive when I checked the chart the next day? Yup. Earworm: Dont need no residency to ride that train

:thumbup::thumbup: !!
 
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Even as a staff Pharmacist you should be "working up" patients. Everytime you verify the med you check out the profile and look for anything fishy. If youre assigned to a floor you check out whos there, why theyre there and make suggestions. Maybe there are Pharmacists whose jobs it is to suggest chemotherapy regimens when a patient presents with Stage IV B-Cell Lymphoma but I doubt its the norm.

ie: I saw an order come through for a new fentanyl patch, cancer patient on the floor, primed for DC the next day. Checked the med rec, new fentanyl start, only po low dose percocet prior to that. Hmm... did a quick search for her 24 hr morphine requirements, did the math, figured the fentanyl patch was too high, called the doc, he sort of battled me, I suggested go low dose and leave on the breakthrough. He agreed. The low dose knocked the patient without any breakthrough requirements out so they switched to another agent.

Could I have simply verified that order? Absolutely.

Its not about the title, its about your PharmD and what you do with it that will have impact on patient care. Is my example small? Maybe. Have I had more important "interventions?" Of course. Did I give myself a highfive when I checked the chart the next day? Yup. Earworm: Dont need no residency to ride that train

My question is to you or anyone who is practicing is that do you ever feel that you don’t have the entire clinical picture that the physician has to arrive at the right therapy or to intervene successfully? If so, how often does this happen? It would be frustrating if that happens often. I guess I don’t understand the role of the pharmacist. The way I am thinking is that if for a certain patient, the doctor diagnoses X condition and chooses a therapeutic plan, how can a pharmacist judge if that plan is appropriate without having the knowledge of the disease that a physician has learned through several years in training?

If the pharmacist has that knowledge, that’s like going through med school and pharmacy school. The way I am seeing is that if I am able to critique what a physician is doing, then I must have the same or more knowledge about what he is doing to adequately critique. That’s like being a physician itself. So far (end of P2) I haven’t learnt pathophysiology in detail in pharmacy school and when I look at med school material, I see how little I am learning about the disease states.When do you trust a treatment plan because of lack of appreciation of the entire picture (that physician has or he should) and when do you intervene? Or is the pharmacist in place to know the guidelines and catch any deviations? I am seeing as black and white and haven’t been on rotations to fully appreciate the details of how things work.
 
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My question is to you or anyone who is practicing is that do you ever feel that you don’t have the entire clinical picture that the physician has to arrive at the right therapy or to intervene successfully? If so, how often does this happen? It would be frustrating if that happens often. I guess I don’t understand the role of the pharmacist. The way I am thinking is that if for a certain patient, the doctor diagnoses X condition and chooses a therapeutic plan, how can a pharmacist judge if that plan is appropriate without having the knowledge of the disease that a physician has learned through several years in training?

If the pharmacist has that knowledge, that’s like going through med school and pharmacy school. The way I am seeing is that if I am able to critique what a physician is doing, then I must have the same or more knowledge about what he is doing to adequately critique. That’s like being a physician itself. So far (end of P2) I haven’t learnt pathophysiology in detail in pharmacy school and when I look at med school material, I see how little I am learning about the disease states.When do you trust a treatment plan because of lack of appreciation of the entire picture (that physician has or he should) and when do you intervene? Or is the pharmacist in place to know the guidelines and catch any deviations? I am seeing as black and white and haven’t been on rotations to fully appreciate the details of how things work.

As a Pharmacist, if the therapeutic plan involves changing the settings on the ventillator, changing the position of the patient and changing the antibiotics - which of the three would you feel comfortable critiquing? Thats why there are respiratory therapists, intensivists and pharmacists etc etc. Its one of those "you dont know what you dont know" sort of things I guess.
 
We have a pretty high functioning group of pharmacists and a really good working relationship with most of our physicians. But I get that everyone's experiences will always be different across institutions. I've seen everything from "here you do whatever you want and sign my name" to really productive discussions/back-and-forth on therapy decisions to having to chart "no call back received."

To the OP, that P-4 probably worked under a) a crappy preceptor with bad recommendations, b) someone who didn't know how to convey the message correctly, or c) at an institution where pharmacy is marginalized and not valued.
 
My question is to you or anyone who is practicing is that do you ever feel that you don’t have the entire clinical picture that the physician has to arrive at the right therapy or to intervene successfully? If so, how often does this happen? It would be frustrating if that happens often. I guess I don’t understand the role of the pharmacist. The way I am thinking is that if for a certain patient, the doctor diagnoses X condition and chooses a therapeutic plan, how can a pharmacist judge if that plan is appropriate without having the knowledge of the disease that a physician has learned through several years in training?

If the pharmacist has that knowledge, that’s like going through med school and pharmacy school. The way I am seeing is that if I am able to critique what a physician is doing, then I must have the same or more knowledge about what he is doing to adequately critique. That’s like being a physician itself. So far (end of P2) I haven’t learnt pathophysiology in detail in pharmacy school and when I look at med school material, I see how little I am learning about the disease states.When do you trust a treatment plan because of lack of appreciation of the entire picture (that physician has or he should) and when do you intervene? Or is the pharmacist in place to know the guidelines and catch any deviations? I am seeing as black and white and haven’t been on rotations to fully appreciate the details of how things work.

You spend four years of school learning all about medicine and drug therapy. When you graduate you will still feel like you barely know anything, but after a while you gain confidence and realize that you know quite a bit more than you realized. You must also understand that physicians are human beings too, and even the ones with a god complex are not right all of the time. Especially with CPOE, you will often see appropriate drugs order in an inappropriate way. It isn't uncommon for someone to pick an antibiotic, click on one of the available doses and frequencies, and send the order your way. As the pharmacist it would be your duty to ensure everything is appropriate. Maybe they ordered 40 mg/kg, but the patient's condition is acute and calls for 80 mg/kg. Maybe they ordered potassium phosphate in a 100 mL bag, but the patient is an infant in heart failure who cannot tolerate the fluid load, and there is plenty of room to concentrate the drug. Don't forget pharmacokinetics. In many institutions, the dosing and monitoring of vancomycin and aminoglycosides are the sole responsibility of the pharmacist.

Physicians and nurses have a lot of things to worry about; we have one thing. It will be your job to optimize drug therapy for your patients. Review their profiles and ensure there are indications for their drugs, search for therapeutic duplication, and catch the dangerous stuff that the one crazy pharmacist always puts through. In addition to this, you will be a resource for everyone in the hospital. Nurses will ask you about IV compatibility and infusion rates, especially for things like phenytoin or potassium which are infused at rates based on weight. Don't be surprised if you get calls from PAs and physicians just straight up asking you how to dose something, or sometimes asking for a recommendation of what drug to use.

I think I understand where you are coming from, because I became very cynical about pharmacy during my last year. It wasn't until I began practicing and gained confidence in myself that I realized how important our job is. We will never be the hero, as we are always working behind the scenes. What we do is in no way glamorous, although the trade off is that it is often less stressful than our fellows in nursing and medicine. However, every single day you are afforded the opportunity to improve the quality of care for your patients. Often it will be simple things like changing dosing, recommended therapeutic alternatives, or adjusting TPNs. Every once in a while you make an intervention that saves someone's life.

To follow up on your previous question, I'm a "clinical pharmacist", although we are all called that as every pharmacist as clinical duties even while staffing. To be honest, I feel like I do more good on my staffing days. That is when I am able to review the most patient profiles, and come across the most drug orders. On the clinical days I sort of just.. hang out in the unit. Honestly, I waste two hours on rounds acting as a drug reference when I could be doing other things. It's nice to bring up patient care issues as we go room to room, but I could handle all of that with a 10 minute conversation then get back to work.
 
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I'm in the exact same boat. I don't call to change something unless it is a big deal, and my docs are always receptive to my input. Just don't call about frivilous things, understand that medicine is very much an art and minor deviations from UpToDate won't kill your patient (and be aware of the drugs where it will), and things will go swimmingly for you. If you can, try to talk to the physicians face to face whenever possible. You are guranteed to get more respect that way, so long as what you are saying is some ridiculous waste of time.
can I have you come talk to some of the people I work with?

I have great relationships with a couple of my docs where we bitch about each other's "colleagues" (I tell him the stupid crap his fellow hospitalists do and he tell me what my fellow rph's do). but usually ends up us both bitching about RN's :)

face to face = x 99999999 - the only time my recommendations get turned down is if the MD tell me some new information I didn't know about the patient - which is usually followed by a "normally I would agree with you, but..." and it is 100% respectful.
 
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face to face = x 99999999 - the only time my recommendations get turned down is if the MD tell me some new information I didn't know about the patient - which is usually followed by a "normally I would agree with you, but..." and it is 100% respectful.

This. QFT.
 
My question is to you or anyone who is practicing is that do you ever feel that you don’t have the entire clinical picture that the physician has to arrive at the right therapy or to intervene successfully? If so, how often does this happen? It would be frustrating if that happens often. I guess I don’t understand the role of the pharmacist. The way I am thinking is that if for a certain patient, the doctor diagnoses X condition and chooses a therapeutic plan, how can a pharmacist judge if that plan is appropriate without having the knowledge of the disease that a physician has learned through several years in training?

If the pharmacist has that knowledge, that’s like going through med school and pharmacy school. The way I am seeing is that if I am able to critique what a physician is doing, then I must have the same or more knowledge about what he is doing to adequately critique. That’s like being a physician itself. So far (end of P2) I haven’t learnt pathophysiology in detail in pharmacy school and when I look at med school material, I see how little I am learning about the disease states.When do you trust a treatment plan because of lack of appreciation of the entire picture (that physician has or he should) and when do you intervene? Or is the pharmacist in place to know the guidelines and catch any deviations? I am seeing as black and white and haven’t been on rotations to fully appreciate the details of how things work.
You do learn basic pathophys to know where the drug comes in play in the disease management but the pharmacists expertise about drug interactions, dose schedule, stability, half-life, etc. which the physicians don't have an extensive knowledge about. However, physician are aware of what drug to give when esp bc they see/use so many of the same drugs on the internal med ward for example but they do screw up on things like establishing pain score ranges for multiple pain meds, forget vanco labs, etc.

The doctors get the full clinical picture because they need to be involved in the diagnosis. If you appreciate the process of diagnosis more than therapy adjustment, maybe med school was the path for you lol...kind of realized that during rotations for myself
 
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What are the differences between pharmacy and medicine residency ? Is it true that pharmacy residency is based more on research, projects, cost saving protocols etc. vs medical residency focusing mostly on clinical diagnosis/treatment of patients ? Also, my professor said that even though we are not diagnosticians, we still have to know the disease states, terminology so we can prepare for an upcoming drug question that could be thrown at us for that disease state. Is that about accurate statement ?
 
Residency is a waste of time in my opinion. If you pay attention in class enough and do well on your rotations you can do the same job in the hospital. A few of my friends went to the top residency program ended up telling me they did not learn anything. So sad, I am now making 2 to 3 times more than my friends and I did not do any residency.
 
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Ambulatory Clinical Pharmacist here, I practice under collaborative therapy agreements with the NPs/PAs/Docs at a large outpatient clinic. The providers at my clinic come to me with questions and refer patients to me for management. I have no dispensing duties, which does not confuse my role for the clinic and let's me focus on clinical pharmacy services in the clinic. The majority of my patients are referred for diabetes, HTN, asthma/COPD and CHF management along with a handful of other duties and services. I respect the providers I work with and I feel respected. I am still learning and am not afraid to say "I don't know but I will find the answer".

The nice thing about working directly in the clinic setting is the clinic eventually looks at your role like any other specialist, they refer to you for specific conditions to help improve the care of the patient or to figure out what the hell is going on with the patient. They appreciate the service and the consultation provided to help their patient and lighten their workload.
 
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My question is to you or anyone who is practicing is that do you ever feel that you don’t have the entire clinical picture that the physician has to arrive at the right therapy or to intervene successfully? If so, how often does this happen? It would be frustrating if that happens often. I guess I don’t understand the role of the pharmacist. The way I am thinking is that if for a certain patient, the doctor diagnoses X condition and chooses a therapeutic plan, how can a pharmacist judge if that plan is appropriate without having the knowledge of the disease that a physician has learned through several years in training?

If the pharmacist has that knowledge, that’s like going through med school and pharmacy school. The way I am seeing is that if I am able to critique what a physician is doing, then I must have the same or more knowledge about what he is doing to adequately critique. That’s like being a physician itself. So far (end of P2) I haven’t learnt pathophysiology in detail in pharmacy school and when I look at med school material, I see how little I am learning about the disease states.When do you trust a treatment plan because of lack of appreciation of the entire picture (that physician has or he should) and when do you intervene? Or is the pharmacist in place to know the guidelines and catch any deviations? I am seeing as black and white and haven’t been on rotations to fully appreciate the details of how things work.
Have you ever had a job in a pharmacy?
 
Is there any way to get into this without doing a two year residency?

I didn't do a residency, I am 4 years out of pharmacy school. I worked inpatient as a clinical pharmacist before transitioning to my current position. For me it was networking, particular experience I have and timing that got me the position.

It is difficult to find these positions without a residency though, every year there are increasing numbers of Ambcare residents coming out. And the total number of positions is minuscule compared to retail and hospital positions. It may be a little easier to find an anti-coag clinic position without a residency but even then I think it is still tough. But who wants to do anti-coag all day long....
 
I had 2 year experience as a staff pharmacist (one of which is alone on overnight) and I went back and I am doing a residency now and all I learned thus far that clinical pharmacy is a big joke.

You essentially looking at profiles which have been looked at by a pharmacist already (when they verified the order) and you either doing insignificant stuff that other pharmacists didn't do because they are lazy and can't bother or cost saving stuff (Iv to po, descalating, ect.) you are not saving anybody'a life or affecting the patient care in a significant way.

Could you catch something that is important? Probably! But the frequency that you do so doesn't justify your salary or you 8-10 years of schooling that you got. Staff pharmacist with no residency catch stuff too, good nurses with 2 years associate degrees catch 10 times more stuff than you do.

Residencies are great if you a retail person and need something to put you at the same level as people with experience. There is a lot to learn. But to somehow think that it will put you in a different stratosphere and you will be a "specialist" is a big joke.

When the doctors don't know what to do, they call a real specialist (ID doc, hemetologist, pulmonlgist, ect.). At most they will ask for stuff they don't have time to look up. Now, you can really help the new residents out, but only because they don't know anything yet.

In other words, make your money and be happy because u r just another cog in the wheel.

FYI:
I have no regrets in doing a residency, the piece of paper on the end will open a lot of doors, but I am just saying, clinical pharmacy is a big joke.
 
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Just last week a doc was treating a case of suspected endocarditis with rocephin. I asked him why rocephin when the culture shows enterococcus. He said "because it's susceptible to ampicillin".... :eyebrow:
 
Residencies are great if you a retail person and need something to put you at the same level as people with experience. There is a lot to learn. But to somehow think that it will put you in a different stratosphere and you will be a "specialist" is a big joke.

When the doctors don't know what to do, they call a real specialist (ID doc, hemetologist, pulmonlgist, ect.). At most they will ask for stuff they don't have time to look up. Now, you can really help the new residents out, but only because they don't know anything yet.

Then what is a pharmacist used for when everything can be consulted to a real specialist doctor ?
 
Then what is a pharmacist used for when everything can be consulted to a real specialist doctor ?

Cost savings.

I.E. you did 6-8 years of school + residency to change protonix IV to oral!
 
Wow that's awesome. Congrats! I felt like 90% of amb care jobs were affiliated with a COP which is a big reason I didn't do a residency to get into it. Our hospital was considering having a pharmD do anticoagulant and antia

In my metro area the majority of Ambcare jobs are not funded by a COP. The majority of our health systems in the area have amb care clinical pharmacists, these jobs are separate from Anti-Coag Clinic pharmacists. I can not speak for other areas of the country though.
 
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It depend on where you practice but i can speak from my experience as former pgy1 that i do feel I learned a lot but more importantly it is about thinking clinically. The available medical knowledge is large and vast and no single individual is able to ever remember everything. What is more important from residency training is able to critically think from clinical standpoint. All the stuff you learn from school are fine and dandy but the ability to put everything together and seeing the big picture for a patient is more important. As far as recommendations, I'd say 50-60% of my rec are accepted, no this does not involve IV/PO, i actually think i only done a couple ever as a pharmacist. Stuff I provide recommendation involve for example, a young pt with newly dx of seizure on a plethora of AED that was managed for well over a year until recently when pt started to have more seizure breakthrough and admitted as such and on admission MD wanted to continue Adderall which is part of patient's home med, this just seem illogical. I called MD, told him why he said ok to hold med. Pt is growing LF GNR and enterococcus covered with ertapenem amp sen, called MD and we added amp. These are arent serious interventions but they're far from cookie cutter lets IV/PO conversion bs. As for real life saving interventions, I seen one of my former preceptor identify pt on multiple pressor at high level yet cvp still low, he noticed pt was on fluticasone inhaled prior to admission chornically which is one of the few steriods that can be absorbed systemically and they he rec for a cosyntropin stim test suspecting CIRCI and then came+ and started on hydrocortisone and the pressor level was off by 50 within a couple of hours. He acknowledges all the doctors at my institution on a first name bases, i practice at a academic center. No clinically pharmacy is not bs
 
You essentially looking at profiles which have been looked at by a pharmacist already (when they verified the order) and you either doing insignificant stuff that other pharmacists didn't do because they are lazy and can't bother or cost saving stuff (Iv to po, descalating, ect.) you are not saving anybody'a life or affecting the patient care in a significant way.

This sounds like a site-specific workplace issue, this doesn't sound like anything I do at all. I'd hate my job if that's what I did.
 
What is more important from residency training is able to critically think from clinical standpoint. All the stuff you learn from school are fine and dandy but the ability to put everything together and seeing the big picture for a patient is more important. s

I really don't think it takes an extra year or two to learn this. It's basic, big picture, what are we trying to accomplish type of thinking. I work with pharmacists with and without residency training that struggle with this concept.
 
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It depend on where you practice but i can speak from my experience as former pgy1 that i do feel I learned a lot but more importantly it is about thinking clinically. The available medical knowledge is large and vast and no single individual is able to ever remember everything. What is more important from residency training is able to critically think from clinical standpoint. All the stuff you learn from school are fine and dandy but the ability to put everything together and seeing the big picture for a patient is more important. As far as recommendations, I'd say 50-60% of my rec are accepted, no this does not involve IV/PO, i actually think i only done a couple ever as a pharmacist. Stuff I provide recommendation involve for example, a young pt with newly dx of seizure on a plethora of AED that was managed for well over a year until recently when pt started to have more seizure breakthrough and admitted as such and on admission MD wanted to continue Adderall which is part of patient's home med, this just seem illogical. I called MD, told him why he said ok to hold med. Pt is growing LF GNR and enterococcus covered with ertapenem amp sen, called MD and we added amp. These are arent serious interventions but they're far from cookie cutter lets IV/PO conversion bs. As for real life saving interventions, I seen one of my former preceptor identify pt on multiple pressor at high level yet cvp still low, he noticed pt was on fluticasone inhaled prior to admission chornically which is one of the few steriods that can be absorbed systemically and they he rec for a cosyntropin stim test suspecting CIRCI and then came+ and started on hydrocortisone and the pressor level was off by 50 within a couple of hours. He acknowledges all the doctors at my institution on a first name bases, i practice at a academic center. No clinically pharmacy is not bs

According to dictionary.com:
Define "Clinical":

"Of or relating to the bedside of a patient, the course of his disease, or the observation and treatment of patients directly a clinical lecture,clinical medicine"

How can you call yourself doing clinical when you never ever "TOUCH" the patient? Dentist, Nurse, PA, and Doctor tough and examine the patient while pharmacists recommend treatments based on numbers on paper. I am sorry but the examples you give we can do the same things in the P4 year if you study well in school. All we have to do is remember the guideline and recommend treatment based on it. I still remember in P4 year at my ID rotation, almost all of my recommendations were accepted and that was because everyone used the same hospital guidelines to treat the patients.

I am not against residency though. For some students, they need a fifth year to reinforce what they forgot but others are just as ready at the end of their P4. But to call yourself doing clinical just because you are doing a residency is BS.
 
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According to dictionary.com:
Define "Clinical":

"Of or relating to the bedside of a patient, the course of his disease, or the observation and treatment of patients directly a clinical lecture,clinical medicine"

How can you call yourself doing clinical when you never ever "TOUCH" the patient? Dentist, Nurse, PA, and Doctor tough and examine the patient while pharmacists recommend treatments based on numbers on paper. I am sorry but the examples you give we can do the same things in the P4 year if you study well in school. All we have to do is remember the guideline and recommend treatment based on it. I still remember in P4 year at my ID rotation, almost all of my recommendations were accepted and that was because everyone used the same hospital guidelines to treat the patients.

I am not against residency though. For some students, they need a fifth year to reinforce what they forgot but others are just as ready at the end of their P4. But to call yourself doing clinical just because you are doing a residency is BS.
I touch my patients. Being able to assess edema and fluid status is essential to seeing my inpatient and outpatient TPN patients. I am also not bad at assessing cardiac rhythms. Used that ability twice this month. Clinical enough?

Last week, I sat with a status epilepticus patient with the PICU fellow and the neurology resident while we titrated his versed drip. I recommended we push the drip every 5 minutes as the canadian guidelines suggest (didn't learn it in school). The neurology resident assessed the cEEG, the PICU fellow assessed hemodynamics and directed nurse management of the vent. I sat and made recommendations for versed and later dopamine titration (everyone of which was accepted without question). We pushed all the way to 16 mcg/kg/min when the PICU fellow wanted to switch to pentobarb. I suggested we wait to switch until 24 mcg/kg/min to go to pentobarb as it had only been 45 min of refractory status. At 20mcg/kg/min all seizure activity stopped. We had the patient out of status before the neurology attending was able to return the page they sent him. That dosing is not in our guidelines (they aren't that specific) and is more aggressive than Lexi-Comp suggests. This was an evening staffing shift in our ICU satellite where all of our hybrid clinical/staff pharmacists are PGY2 trained.
 
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I touch my patients. Being able to assess edema and fluid status is essential to seeing my inpatient and outpatient TPN patients. I am also not bad at assessing cardiac rhythms. Used that ability twice this month. Clinical enough?

Last week, I sat with a status epilepticus patient with the PICU fellow and the neurology resident while we titrated his versed drip. I recommended we push the drip every 5 minutes as the canadian guidelines suggest (didn't learn it in school). The neurology resident assessed the cEEG, the PICU fellow assessed hemodynamics and directed nurse management of the vent. I sat and made recommendations for versed and later dopamine titration (everyone of which was accepted without question). We pushed all the way to 16 mcg/kg/min when the PICU fellow wanted to switch to pentobarb. I suggested we wait to switch until 24 mcg/kg/min to go to pentobarb as it had only been 45 min of refractory status. At 20mcg/kg/min all seizure activity stopped. We had the patient out of status before the neurology attending was able to return the page they sent him. That dosing is not in our guidelines (they aren't that specific) and is more aggressive than Lexi-Comp suggests. This was an evening staffing shift in our ICU satellite where all of our hybrid clinical/staff pharmacists are PGY2 trained.
It does not take 1 year of residency to see someone's leg swollen, does it? In clinical, you can't just guess the patient has or has not abnormal cardiac rhythms. It is the job of a cardiologist who is responsible for their diagnosis. While you may be curious to attempt to diagnose the patient for your own learning and it may feel good to come up with same information as of the providers, you have never been trained to do physical examination and you are never given that diagnostic function in the hospital. Your recommendation at far most remains at the level of "Recommendation". Mostly likely, the doctors already know what to do without your recommendation. When you round with the attending, can you independently examine the patient and provide the diagnosis to the team? If you can't, how can you call yourself a clinician?

For your seizure case, it is a common sense to titrate the dose from low to high for seizure medications since we don't know what level will work for each specific patient given there is lack of a guideline regarding the treated case. It does not take 1 year of residency to know that. As I learnt from my P4 rotations Go Slow and Titrate upward to be safe.
 
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I touch my patients. Being able to assess edema and fluid status is essential to seeing my inpatient and outpatient TPN patients. I am also not bad at assessing cardiac rhythms. Used that ability twice this month. Clinical enough?

Last week, I sat with a status epilepticus patient with the PICU fellow and the neurology resident while we titrated his versed drip. I recommended we push the drip every 5 minutes as the canadian guidelines suggest (didn't learn it in school). The neurology resident assessed the cEEG, the PICU fellow assessed hemodynamics and directed nurse management of the vent. I sat and made recommendations for versed and later dopamine titration (everyone of which was accepted without question). We pushed all the way to 16 mcg/kg/min when the PICU fellow wanted to switch to pentobarb. I suggested we wait to switch until 24 mcg/kg/min to go to pentobarb as it had only been 45 min of refractory status. At 20mcg/kg/min all seizure activity stopped. We had the patient out of status before the neurology attending was able to return the page they sent him. That dosing is not in our guidelines (they aren't that specific) and is more aggressive than Lexi-Comp suggests. This was an evening staffing shift in our ICU satellite where all of our hybrid clinical/staff pharmacists are PGY2 trained.

Where do you work?

Also, after 45min of status, 20mcg/kg/min of versed and subsequent dopamine..... did the seizures stop because EEG stopped spiking?... or the patient died?
 
Where do you work?

Also, after 45min of status, 20mcg/kg/min of versed and subsequent dopamine..... did the seizures stop because EEG stopped spiking?... or the patient died?

Not answering that first question...

Second, if you think that those are ridiculous numbers, you are mistaken. For refractory status epilepticus (he had 3 doses of ativan, fosphenytoin, and levetiracetam before he got to us) a 45 minute termination is pretty good. With older slower guidelines (i.e. the Neurocritical care society guidelines) I have seen patients been in status for DAYS before appropriate control is achieved. Also, the patient was extubated Monday and was eating and talking when I went to see him today with no change in his baseline neurological exam. BTW- are you are pharmacist or a medical student, your username and status always confuse me.
 
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It does not take 1 year of residency to see someone's leg swollen, does it? In clinical, you can't just guess the patient has or has not abnormal cardiac rhythms. It is the job of a cardiologist who is responsible for their diagnosis. While you may be curious to attempt to diagnose the patient for your own learning and it may feel good to come up with same information as of the providers, you have never been trained to do physical examination and you are never given that diagnostic function in the hospital. Your recommendation at far most remains at the level of "Recommendation". Mostly likely, the doctors already know what to do without your recommendation. When you round with the attending, can you independently examine the patient and provide the diagnosis to the team? If you can't, how can you call yourself a clinician?

For your seizure case, it is a common sense to titrate the dose from low to high for seizure medications since we don't know what level will work for each specific patient given there is lack of a guideline regarding the treated case. It does not take 1 year of residency to know that. As I learnt from my P4 rotations Go Slow and Titrate upward to be safe.
First, the definition you gave of "clinical" doesn't actually talk about diagnosis, does it? Second, the physical assessment of my TPN patients involves a lot more and I am often solely responsible for the appropriate management of their nutrition order. Third, we were trained to do physical assessments in school (and in residency), although I don't use it very much outside of TPN. Fourth, the doctors often know what to do, but my job is the specifics of the medication used in that scenario, of which our doctors don't trouble themselves because they know that they can get a good answer from me.

As for the seizure case, there are guidelines. The US guidelines are much more conservative and often result in prolonged seizures. I always push for the more aggressive recommendations in these patients because we need the Versed to either work fast or fail fast so we can go to a pentobarb coma.

What I am trying to say is that in my hybrid clinical world, I do a lot that I was not trained to do in school. I also make a lot of recommendations that are neither rejected or questioned because of the relationship I have with my physicians. That relationship is only possible because of the heavy involvement pharmacy has in our ICUs.
 
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First, the definition you gave of "clinical" doesn't actually talk about diagnosis, does it? Second, the physical assessment of my TPN patients involves a lot more and I am often solely responsible for the appropriate management of their nutrition order. Third, we were trained to do physical assessments in school (and in residency), although I don't use it very much outside of TPN. Fourth, the doctors often know what to do, but my job is the specifics of the medication used in that scenario, of which our doctors don't trouble themselves because they know that they can get a good answer from me.

As for the seizure case, there are guidelines. The US guidelines are much more conservative and often result in prolonged seizures. I always push for the more aggressive recommendations in these patients because we need the Versed to either work fast or fail fast so we can go to a pentobarb coma.

What I am trying to say is that in my hybrid clinical world, I do a lot that I was not trained to do in school. I also make a lot of recommendations that are neither rejected or questioned because of the relationship I have with my physicians. That relationship is only possible because of the heavy involvement pharmacy has in our ICUs.
You still have not answered to my question. Let me ask you again: what is your definition of "Clinical"? Where is the line between pharmacist and clinical pharmacist?
 
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You still have not answered to my question. Let me ask you again: what is your definition of "Clinical"? Where is the line between pharmacist and clinical pharmacist?
The idea that there is a line, that this is a dichotomy is the problem. Clinical pharmacy is medication management unrelated or only indirectly related to the dispensing of medication. Clinical pharmacists are those that do this as their primary job responsibility. Most pharmacists do some of this at their job. All of our positions are hybrid clinical staff positions. Most pharmacists should be doing some of this. (My nuclear pharmacy friends say they are some of the only completely non-clinical pharmacists)

You seem to suggest that there is no benefit to my rounding with my medical team. I only think that my physicians would disagree.

Honestly, this discussion is interesting, but I might be done.
 
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The idea that there is a line, that this is a dichotomy is the problem. Clinical pharmacy is medication management unrelated or only indirectly related to the dispensing of medication. Clinical pharmacists are those that do this as their primary job responsibility. Most pharmacists do some of this at their job. All of our positions are hybrid clinical staff positions. Most pharmacists should be doing some of this. (My nuclear pharmacy friends say they are some of the only completely non-clinical pharmacists)

You seem to suggest that there is no benefit to my rounding with my medical team. I only think that my physicians would disagree.

Honestly, this discussion is interesting, but I might be done.
Your answer has confirmed that I am doing clinical now, but without a residency. There is no need for residency. With some training at work, a non-resident pharmacist can do just as much as the resident pharmacist. At IHS, we all train staff pharmacists 1 or 2 months before they take on a new role of working in the clinic. They have all materials for pharmacists to learn and remember a certain things, numbers and side effects. No one ever questions do you do residency.
 
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You should not care at all what he thinks.

I think this discussion between WhiteSnows and KidPharmD is indeed very interesting. I would like to see each argument here standing on its own merits and factual evidence rather than relying on argumentum ad hominem.

FWIW, I'm leaning more toward WhiteSnow's because this is all common sense. No need for all the fancy words.
 
Then what is a pharmacist used for when everything can be consulted to a real specialist doctor ?

check and balance + cost-saving (instead of consulting with the "real" specialists).
 
I do what I want.
 
Your answer has confirmed that I am doing clinical now, but without a residency. There is no need for residency. With some training at work, a non-resident pharmacist can do just as much as the resident pharmacist. At IHS, we all train staff pharmacists 1 or 2 months before they take on a new role of working in the clinic. They have all materials for pharmacists to learn and remember a certain things, numbers and side effects. No one ever questions do you do residency.

I have no doubt that you are doing clinical pharmacy now without a residency. I would like to ask you some questions. What is a normal day like? Did you get this job (in its current form) straight out of school? If not, how long out of school were you? I am curious how different (if at all) our practice sites are.
 
I have no doubt that you are doing clinical pharmacy now without a residency. I would like to ask you some questions. What is a normal day like? Did you get this job (in its current form) straight out of school? If not, how long out of school were you? I am curious how different (if at all) our practice sites are.
I work in the ER and Inpatient long night shift 4 days on 4 days off. My typical day is receiving orders, verify medications (right med, right dose, right indication), making IV meds,deliver medications to the floor, filling pyxis, doing med rec, counsel discharged patient, making recommendations to doctors, working closely with nurses and so on. I am constantly on my feet as I am the only pharmacist working night shift with no technician. I got this job right from another job with connection. I have been out of school for exact 1 year. I have never done residency but I studied very well in school and retained most of my knowledge or at least know where to look up information. I also had very good rotations that helped me to get my first job as I was able to convince my boss that I can do the job.

My previous job I worked for one of the most busiest IHS in the country. I filled on average 200 t0 350 prescriptions/day, counseled on average 50 patients/day for 5 months straight with Zero mistakes, caught some deadly mistakes from clinical pharmacist like Viagra/NTG given to the patient unnoticed. I was offered the permanent job in 1 month but denied. I am currently working for a large oil corporation.
 
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Clinical pharmacy is a waste...they sell it on you from day one like youre gonna be god damn saving the world. Guess what, youre still the doctors bitch, and youre out 100k dicking around being someones bitch for two years. FYI anyone can sit for the BCPS exam after 3 years of working with FULL PAY. The only people who do clinical are the 20yr olds with no work experience that dont have a ****ing clue of how the real world works. Looking at charts all day and consulting bed ridden patients isnt that great.
 
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