What's Your Number?

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What's Your Number

  • $3 Million

    Votes: 9 19.1%
  • $5 Million

    Votes: 14 29.8%
  • $7 Million

    Votes: 11 23.4%
  • $10 Million

    Votes: 13 27.7%
  • $12 Million or more

    Votes: 4 8.5%

  • Total voters
    47
I'm at $6m net right now at age 52. We do defined contribution of 55k in my group. My wife saves an additional 32k pretax. We probably save another 250k post tax. Yes you too can do it if you live simple, drive cars for 8 plus years, do not carry debt and are married to the same person for 25 plus years. Teach your kids the value of money and good work ethic.

Here is my plan. Retire at 58. $5m invested in SPY has a yield of 2% which is 100k a year. The portfolio grows at 5% which is $250k a year. I draw $100k of that for an annual income of 200k half of which is taxed at 15%.

This.

I am still young in my career and working like an animal, but my goal is to invest aggressively and ultimately land somewhere between $5m to $7m by age 50-55. At that time, I'll start investing slightly more conservatively (i.e. not just index funds, but throw some in preferred share ETFs yielding around 6% in dividends). From there, with no debt or mortgage to pay off, I can pull out enough (around $200k per year) and just practice medicine part-time without compromising my lifestyle at all. If anything, my lifestyle would be better since I have more free time on my hands without any financial sacrifices.

Having a second high-income earner as a spouse really makes this feasible for a new graduate.

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I'm at $6m net right now at age 52. We do defined contribution of 55k in my group. My wife saves an additional 32k pretax. We probably save another 250k post tax. Yes you too can do it if you live simple, drive cars for 8 plus years, do not carry debt and are married to the same person for 25 plus years. Teach your kids the value of money and good work ethic.

Here is my plan. Retire at 58. $5m invested in SPY has a yield of 2% which is 100k a year. The portfolio grows at 5% which is $250k a year. I draw $100k of that for an annual income of 200k half of which is taxed at 15%.

I will have another $2m in pretax which I will not touch until I am forced to take distributions. I could go indefinitely as the portfolio grows while we get plenty of income to enjoy retirement while still in good health. I will leave plenty of money for my two daughters one in law school and the other is in med school, both with no loans and full scholarships.


Planning to retire either in Madison WI or Ann Arbor MI, enjoying college sports, music, theater and physical activities and immediate access to excellent health care facilities.

Go Badgers and Go Blue!!


So what is your number? $7 million or $8 million? Are you going part-time or 100% retired at age 58? Are you going to pay health care costs from age 58-65 from your retirement funds?

Congrads on a great plan and an early retirement.
 
So what is your number? $7 million or $8 million? Are you going part-time or 100% retired at age 58? Are you going to pay health care costs from age 58-65 from your retirement funds?

Congrads on a great plan and an early retirement.
It is not just hitting "your number". An unwise portfolio allocation in retirement could devastate somebody who has done it right for decades.
 
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how should one be managing their money during residency? i will be living at home so not spending on rent, but do have loan payments to make
 
how should one be managing their money during residency? i will be living at home so not spending on rent, but do have loan payments to make

Just don't forget to take the tax credit for loan payment interest if your total yearly salary is less than $75k. That was a nice check for me after that law was passed towards the end of my residency.
 
how should one be managing their money during residency? i will be living at home so not spending on rent, but do have loan payments to make

Open a Roth IRA if you have some extra money to do it after your loan payments.
 
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Blade,

My number would be $7m I think. My wife is 6 years younger and is a company executive. We have always had health insurance through her employer. She will work until I hit 65 or maybe even 70. She is a workaholic and I'm just fine with that. I have plenty to do, starting with ice fishing in January to golf biking gardening and fishing in the spring/summer to hunting and football in the fall! The only wildcard is what if I get colon or prostate cancer or a melanoma or Lyme disease or a heart attack. I need to enjoy retirement while I'm still young and healthy.

Wiscoblue.
 
I posted in the last one of these threads. My number is >$4m retirement funds and >$2M in property in 2 homes. I am on track to easily exceed this as my spouse is a professional as well. We both stand to inherit money, though planning on that is a bad idea as one never knows what the future holds. Bad investments, multiple prolonged illnesses, etc. could eat up a fortune.
If all goes well we will be able to live very well and leave a significant inheritance to the kids after paying for their education.
If it goes better than expected I will have an obscene vacation home in Europe.
 
I use Larson Financial and have been very happy with them. I am married with no children, yet. I have been out of residency and in my first job for 11 months. We started with a strong plan that included life, disability, and umbrella insurances, and a great doctor loan for our mortgage. We save well and invest over 25%. We are living slightly better than residents, though we still shop at low cost grocery stores (Aldi), thrift stores for clothing, bought a small house a few blocks from work, which allows us to have only one car (and motorcycle, of course).

A savings of $4 Million will provide an annual income of $320,000 if earning a conservative 8%/year. According to Larson's algorithms on my current income, we have an 85% chance of reaching that within 25 years. In another month when I become a partner with a slight bump in income, those chances go up, or the time frame becomes shorter.
 
I use Larson Financial and have been very happy with them. I am married with no children, yet. I have been out of residency and in my first job for 11 months. We started with a strong plan that included life, disability, and umbrella insurances, and a great doctor loan for our mortgage. We save well and invest over 25%. We are living slightly better than residents, though we still shop at low cost grocery stores (Aldi), thrift stores for clothing, bought a small house a few blocks from work, which allows us to have only one car (and motorcycle, of course).

A savings of $4 Million will provide an annual income of $320,000 if earning a conservative 8%/year. According to Larson's algorithms on my current income, we have an 85% chance of reaching that within 25 years. In another month when I become a partner with a slight bump in income, those chances go up, or the time frame becomes shorter.

8% is not conservative. Particularly at current interest rates and equity valuations. Don't forget $4 million in the future will be worth considerably less than $4 million today. Curious what assumptions are being made to get you there.
Don't know anything about Larson, but they get a decent review from the white coat investor.
http://whitecoatinvestor.com/larson-financial-review-friday-qa-series/
 
8% is not conservative. Particularly at current interest rates and equity valuations. Don't forget $4 million in the future will be worth considerably less than $4 million today. Curious what assumptions are being made to get you there.
Don't know anything about Larson, but they get a decent review from the white coat investor.
http://whitecoatinvestor.com/larson-financial-review-friday-qa-series/


A much better number is 6% and even that is nothing to sneeze at.
 
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8% growth is really optimistic. As a withdrawal/income rate, it's even more optimistic. 4% is probably a better sustainable withdrawal rate, and some are even arguing 3% if you want the principal to remain intact, adjusted for inflation. I plan around a 4% SWR.
 
8% growth is really optimistic. As a withdrawal/income rate, it's even more optimistic. 4% is probably a better sustainable withdrawal rate, and some are even arguing 3% if you want the principal to remain intact, adjusted for inflation. I plan around a 4% SWR.


My plan is a 2% withdrawal rate at retirement which is why I need $10 million to stop working completely.
 
I gotta say, most of you guys seem to have wayyyy better jobs than I do. I'm going to née to work till around 62 (I'm 57 now) in order to hit my number which is 4 million.
 
4 million, assuming you have your home(s) paid off is enough to live on forever and still have a very nice lifestyle.
It seems some here either have a very extravagant retirement plan or want to pass on large estates. And have 90th percentile PP jobs. ;)
 
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I gotta say, most of you guys seem to have wayyyy better jobs than I do. I'm going to née to work till around 62 (I'm 57 now) in order to hit my number which is 4 million.
I guess you make your money off of practicing anesthesia not kitchen scheduling of anesthesia.
 
My plan is a 2% withdrawal rate at retirement which is why I need $10 million to stop working completely.

At a 2% withdrawal rate your nest egg will be larger when you die than when you retire.

I plan on approximately a 5% withdrawal rate or so or given a 3-4% conservative expected return which will provide a 1-2% drop in principal per year over time. In other words plenty of room for a 25-35 year life expectancy when I retire. Of course the older I get the less money I will spend.
 
If a dying field like anesthesia can yield $7-10 million in savings over a 25 year career, it can't be that bad.
 
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If a dying field like anesthesia can yield $7-10 million in savings over a 25 year career, it can't be that bad.
Correction- it WASN'T that bad. It most certainly can and will be that bad in the future.
 
My plan is a 2% withdrawal rate at retirement which is why I need $10 million to stop working completely.

Blade,
Check ou this link: http://www.rbcwm-usa.com/resources/file-687839.pdf

In order to get to the point where all you need is a 2% withdrawal rate, you may be taking more risk than you need to late in your career if you were to choose a different withdrawal rate. Risks can show up. Of course a lot also depends on how important leaving an estate to your children is. It is reasonable to assume that the link shown is actually more optimistic than the future is likely to be given current valuations of stocks and bonds and likely expected future returns.
 
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Salary surveys say that gas salaries are still in the upper 300s to lower 400s?
People in this thread save 200k per year. That's not too far below 100% of my after-tax income. Making 3-something is a good income but nothing like what the kitchen schedulers are pulling and more than I expect to make in the future.
 
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A much better number is 6% and even that is nothing to sneeze at.


A person could get close to 6% just putting their money into real estate....hopefully people don't only have their nest eggs in the stock market. Have it in the market , real estate, small business, etc....but diversify for sure
 
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Mid 350's is just part of the equation. Are you working 40 hours or 80+hours. How much are you on call. Benefits or no. Is your group lean or are people sitting around for hours btw/ cases? Weeks vaca? Strength of the department, etc, etc.
There are so many permutations to the equation. Giving a figure w/o what is attached to it is just too hard to go through with a fine tooth comb.
You can make a killing with the right contract and some blood sweat and tears.... or you can have the other side of the equation.
I know people w/ 26+ weeks of vacation making half of your figure... but their quality of life is ridiculous.
 
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A person could get close to 6% just putting their money into real estate....hopefully people don't only have their nest eggs in the stock market. Have it in the market , real estate, small business, etc....but diversify for sure

Real estate is not for everyone. I do believe in the value of it for diversification. REITs are out there. Some prefer to buy real estate.
I guess it depends on what you want to do with the investment in the long and short term.
 
A person could get close to 6% just putting their money into real estate....hopefully people don't only have their nest eggs in the stock market. Have it in the market , real estate, small business, etc....but diversify for sure

You sure about that?

http://pragcap.com/robert-shiller-dont-invest-in-housing

http://www.businessinsider.com/actu...-money-over-the-long-term-with-a-house-2011-5

By the way Equity REITs are about the most richly valued asset class, their future expected returns are on the low side.
 
Open a Roth IRA if you have some extra money to do it after your loan payments.

thanks for your adivce! i have 70k in loans (45k of which are ridiculous private loans at 8.5-9% interest rates). and will be living at home/not paying rent. would you still recommend contributing to a Roth IRA during residency or aggressively try to pay off my debt?
 
There's no investment instrument out there that guarantees you 8.5-9% return. Get those loans paid off first for sure.
 
If a dying field like anesthesia can yield $7-10 million in savings over a 25 year career, it can't be that bad.

*SERIOUSLY*

But, lest you forget...someone else will have 15-20 million and, therefore, anesthesia sucks :)
 
*SERIOUSLY*

But, lest you forget...someone else will have 15-20 million and, therefore, anesthesia sucks :)


It's not what WE are earning now that matters SLIM but rather what YOU will likely earn as a newly minted Anesthesiologist in 2018 or 2022 or whenever:

Salary- $300K from the AMC
Retirement plan: $30K per year

At age 65 YOU would be fortunate to have $3 million in DEPRECIATED USA dollars for retirement.

Contrast that picture with someone else newly minted in Ortho:

Salary $550K
Retirement $55K

At age 65 he/she has $10 million.
 
It's not what WE are earning now that matters SLIM but rather what YOU will likely earn as a newly minted Anesthesiologist in 2018 or 2022 or whenever:

Salary- $300K from the AMC
Retirement plan: $30K per year

At age 65 YOU would be fortunate to have $3 million in DEPRECIATED USA dollars for retirement.

Contrast that picture with someone else newly minted in Ortho:

Salary $550K
Retirement $55K

At age 65 he/she has $10 million.

Yeah but not everyone can go into Ortho. There are only so many spots. And as I implied....someone always has more.

Also, you could do A LOT better than 3 mil in depreciated assets--what are you investing in? Bonds and Gold? For most of your career the majority of your investments should be in equities. I would load up right now on the Vanguard financial mutual fund, Vanguard 500, and NYX. Those should be no brainers.

Someone will always earn more money than you. That doesn't make Anesthesia a bad field. And it's important to remember that markets change--they aren't static. Incomes might be flat or down for a period, but that won't last forever. Nothing ever does.
 
Yeah but not everyone can go into Ortho. There are only so many spots. And as I implied....someone always has more.

Also, you could do A LOT better than 3 mil in depreciated assets--what are you investing in? Bonds and Gold? For most of your career the majority of your investments should be in equities. I would load up right now on the Vanguard financial mutual fund, Vanguard 500, and NYX. Those should be no brainers.

Someone will always earn more money than you. That doesn't make Anesthesia a bad field. And it's important to remember that markets change--they aren't static. Incomes might be flat or down for a period, but that won't last forever. Nothing ever does.
They will be down forever.
The only thing that could save anesthesia is anti-trust breakups of AMCs.
 
It's not what WE are earning now that matters SLIM but rather what YOU will likely earn as a newly minted Anesthesiologist in 2018 or 2022 or whenever:

Salary- $300K from the AMC
Retirement plan: $30K per year

At age 65 YOU would be fortunate to have $3 million in DEPRECIATED USA dollars for retirement.

Contrast that picture with someone else newly minted in Ortho:

Salary $550K
Retirement $55K

At age 65 he/she has $10 million.

Blade,

Out of curiosity, what's your take on Radiology? 7 years ago it was as hot as hell. Now, it looks more and more like Pathology. I like Radiology more, however, because it's more technologically-driven.

thanx
 
I use Larson Financial and have been very happy with them. I am married with no children, yet. I have been out of residency and in my first job for 11 months. We started with a strong plan that included life, disability, and umbrella insurances, and a great doctor loan for our mortgage. We save well and invest over 25%. We are living slightly better than residents, though we still shop at low cost grocery stores (Aldi), thrift stores for clothing, bought a small house a few blocks from work, which allows us to have only one car (and motorcycle, of course).

A savings of $4 Million will provide an annual income of $320,000 if earning a conservative 8%/year. According to Larson's algorithms on my current income, we have an 85% chance of reaching that within 25 years. In another month when I become a partner with a slight bump in income, those chances go up, or the time frame becomes shorter.

On a side note,

Does anyone here use Mercer? Over on Dentaltown Mercer seems to be all the rage.
Just curious.

thanx
 
They will be down forever.
The only thing that could save anesthesia is anti-trust breakups of AMCs.

That wouldn't save anything.

We are hospital based physicians. If there was no AMC, we'd all be hospital employees. That is what is happening. Hospitals keep merging into bigger health systems. AMCs are irrelevant to the future of our specialty.
 
That wouldn't save anything.

We are hospital based physicians. If there was no AMC, we'd all be hospital employees. That is what is happening. Hospitals keep merging into bigger health systems. AMCs are irrelevant to the future of our specialty.

Yeah maybe
 
It's not what WE are earning now that matters SLIM but rather what YOU will likely earn as a newly minted Anesthesiologist in 2018 or 2022 or whenever:

Salary- $300K from the AMC
Retirement plan: $30K per year

At age 65 YOU would be fortunate to have $3 million in DEPRECIATED USA dollars for retirement.

Contrast that picture with someone else newly minted in Ortho:

Salary $550K
Retirement $55K

At age 65 he/she has $10 million.
I really doubt the average anesthesia student has the capacity to match into ortho. Four years ago the US senior average step 1 was 226 for gas vs 240 for ortho. Raw salary isn't a good way to look at it, either. Look at the number of hours an orthpod works, including call, versus the number of hours an anesthesiologist works. Yeah, there are orthopods who probably do 50 hour weeks at ASCs with no call but I doubt that's the norm.
 
I really doubt the average anesthesia student has the capacity to match into ortho. Four years ago the US senior average step 1 was 226 for gas vs 240 for ortho. Raw salary isn't a good way to look at it, either. Look at the number of hours an orthpod works, including call, versus the number of hours an anesthesiologist works. Yeah, there are orthopods who probably do 50 hour weeks at ASCs with no call but I doubt that's the norm.


I work more hours than 90% of all Orthopedic Surgeons. But, I suspect an AMC position would put my hours at about 80% of the standard Orthopod work week.. Still, Orthopedics leaves one with the CHOICE of making a lot of money by working hard or reducing the hours to a standard amount.

AMCs/Hospital Employee which will be 80% of the job market for anesthesia doesn't offer those same options.

Finally, there is a REASON med students with a STEP score of 240 choose Ortho over anesthesia and it isn't for the lifestyle.
 
All this money talk is insane. Enjoy life. My father was a doctor. Really could have retired at age 62. Wanted to work till age 65 to hit "that number" and leave extra for the kids.

Unfortunately he was diagnosed with anaplastic thryoid CA (the type that kills within 6 months at age 67). Same type as Chief Justice Rehnquist had at a similar time. He was pretty healthy until than.

You never know when your time is up. You got 5 million, you want 7 million. When does it stop?

The "top 1%" of American average net worth is about 7-8 million. How much money can one spend to be happy?

You save save save. Than what? You die.
 
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Love it Aneftp. You are absolutley right dude. This leads me back to the real estate investment side of things discussed above.
Timing is everything.
If you wanted to buy real estate, two years ago was the time to do it. You coud lock in at 2.5% and get a heck of a deal.
Fastforwads a couple of years and that heck of a deal is worth a lot more depending on local markets.

Timing is everything.

An equally important question to ask is--> what are you planning on doing with it?

For me, it has been nothing short of bliss. While I made a lot more last year with the run up of the market, I enjoyed my real estate investment a lot more. This is a tangible aspect of my life RIGHT NOW. Not only did I get a killer deal at a super low interest rate, I use the heck out of my real estate investment.

As I said, it's not for everyone. What you plan to do with it is very important.

Just got back from the epic/cleanisng ride a couple hours ago. Helps me put things into perspective when I'm at the big shop:

3B543AEF-6ABA-4BDF-8458-F011485B5972_zpshfmrihi9.jpg


This one was from a couple days ago:

CED883DD-1ECB-4CFF-9819-EDA82FD2F70F_zpsrvgzf1ma.jpg


It's easy to get caught up in the game. 10 mil is a great number... but make sure you're smelling the roses along the way.

What is 10 mil going to do for you when you suffer some debilitating injury at 60 y/o?

I find real estate a great way to diversify my life and it's been worth it's weight in gold.
 
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All this money talk is insane. Enjoy life. My father was a doctor. Really could have retired at age 62. Wanted to work till age 65 to hit "that number" and leave extra for the kids.

Unfortunately he was diagnosed with anaplastic thryoid CA (the type that kills within 6 months at age 67). Same type as Chief Justice Rehnquist had at a similar time. He was pretty healthy until than.

You never know when your time is up. You got 5 million, you want 7 million. When does it stop?

The "top 1%" of American average net worth is about 7-8 million. How much money can one spend to be happy?

You save save save. Than what? You die.

Completely agree. I'll work full time until I have enough money to not worry about money the rest of my life and then I'll work part time until I don't have that burning desire to do it anymore. But I don't need a ton of money to be happy. When I'm debt free and spending my days golfing or fishing, there is only so much money it takes to buy gas and food. Gotta enjoy it before your time is up. Nobody on their death bed ever said they wished they worked harder or longer.
 
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$1 million for me. I should be able to do it within ten years.
With a safe withdrawl rate of 4%, that will be a perpetual income of $40,000 per year (in 2024 dollars). That's significantly less than a resident's salary. It's also less than the $70,000 per year that is supposedly the threshold of maximum happiness. Interesting lifestyle choice.

I think @IlDestriero has the right idea. With 10^6 dollars it's possible do anything, but once you cross above 10^6.5 dollar territory in liquid assets it's now possible to do nothing.

Now that I think about it, the perceived benefits of a nest egg are really logarithmic in nature (2mil is more fun than 1mil, by the same margin that 4mil is more fun than 2mil... 3mil vs 2mil just isn't that big of a jump in lifestyle). So it might make more sense to talk about one's pNumber, with most answers in this forum hovering between -6.5 and -7.0.
 
With a safe withdrawl rate of 4%, that will be a perpetual income of $40,000 per year (in 2024 dollars). That's significantly less than a resident's salary. It's also less than the $70,000 per year that is supposedly the threshold of maximum happiness. Interesting lifestyle choice.
Out of curiosity, what is this $70,000 per year for maximum happiness figure based upon? I'm guessing survey data? If so, actual amounts needed to maximize happiness will vary widely. I spent the last few years living on a resident's salary, and in my case, what I desperately wanted was more time, not more money. For a single person with no kids and no debt, $50,000/year was more than enough, even with living in a ridiculously expensive area of the country, and even with saving 20% of it per year toward my FU fund and retirement (which I obviously wouldn't continue doing once I had enough money to be able to quit my job if I decided to.) So without any retirement contributions, $40,000 per year is actually about what I would need to maintain my current lifestyle, although I hadn't calculated it out explicitly in this way.

Your calculation is also assuming that I would start taking retirement withdrawals at age 50, which I wouldn't do. I don't want to actually stop working at age 50. I want to have the ability to stop working at age 50. There's a difference.
 
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Anesthesia has many problems with the specialty fortunately money ain't one of em. You will make $$ in anesthesia but that's not a pro or con for the specialty because money won't make you happy if you dislike the day to day and getting paid less won't bring you down if you love what you do. If you're makin 350k/yr for the rest of your career you'll be just fine. Might not be able to leave that huge inheritance you want or buy that yacht but you won't be living in a 3rd rate nursing home eating cat food for dinner. Most people retire on much less than 3 mil in the bank and they still survive
 
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