When to do research - and how?

[pavetta]

Hey all,

Considering that most schools don't have any research opportunities, how are so many students able to match into competitive residencies? (besides the usual killing the steps/levels)

For example, at my school, there is no affiliated lab, or teaching hospital. I get a month of summer between MS1 and MS2, (subtracting moving back and forth cross country and settling in). Most places I contacted want help for more than a month.

For the summer of MS2 - ms3, I'll be focusing on studying for boards.

for the summer of MS3-ms4, I'll have barely a month of summer before the next rotation.

So with summer out of the question, does that mean that most people get some kind of meaningful research activity during the MS1-MS2 years, in addition to full coursework? And what kind of research do they usually do? I worked at a clinical lab for 4 years in the the past, and wasn't able to publish meaningful papers during that time. How do people manage the time to research, let alone churn out publications?

Thanks!

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[cliquesh]

I did a couple of case reports and a review article as a 3rd and 4th year student. On my first day of my rotation I'd just ask if there were any projects I could get involve with.

 

[DrEnderW]

Reach out to physicians at neighboring MD schools in your areas of interest and see if you get any bites. Cross reference names on pubmed and look for people that are routinely publishing. Do you have someone in charge of research at your school? A dean or someone appointed? Ask them for any outside contacts as well. I sacrificed my M1-M2 summer for research (went from the day classes ended until the day before they started) and it was well worth it. Also, look for clinical projects as they can be worked on from a distance after summer and are much quicker to publish.

 

[scoKraz4]

Touro ny has a ton of research opportunities..just sayin

 

[TopTomato]

I did a couple of case reports and a review article as a 3rd and 4th year student. On my first day of my rotation I'd just ask if there were any projects I could get involve with.

I know you've stated you matched at a really good anesthesia program, would you say that doing research the summer of M1 into M2 year is overstated on SDN then?

 

[DopaDO]

I matched an ACGME competitive surgical subspecialty at a damn good (top 30) program. I ended up having around 6 research experiences with several pubs. I had no research going into 3rd year and got all of it by being aggressive and being eager to get involved. I wasn't afraid to cold call other institutions in my area. Certainly doing research between M1 and M2 is good but it certainly isn't necessary. You can manage research and clinicals. Just work hard. Nothing is more important than Step 1 though. If you don't perform at least on par w the MDs trying to get into your specialty, kiss your chances goodbye - all the research in the world won't make up for that. COMLEX doesn't matter though, so don't sweat that test.

 

[TopTomato]

I matched an ACGME competitive surgical subspecialty at a damn good (top 30) program. I ended up having around 6 research experiences with several pubs. I had no research going into 3rd year and got all of it by being aggressive and being eager to get involved. I wasn't afraid to cold call other institutions in my area. Certainly doing research between M1 and M2 is good but it certainly isn't necessary. You can manage research and clinicals. Just work hard. Nothing is more important than Step 1 though. If you don't perform at least on par w the MDs trying to get into your specialty, kiss your chances goodbye - all the research in the world won't make up for that. COMLEX doesn't matter though, so don't sweat that test.

Thanks, I remember when you posted the AMA. Congrats man. Were you SSP at all, or is that irrelevant when it comes to ACGME matches?

 

[cliquesh]

I know you've stated you matched at a really good anesthesia program, would you say that doing research the summer of M1 into M2 year is overstated on SDN then?

It really depends on your goals. If you want to do something competitive and/or you want to go to a top academic program, you really ought to do research, and doing a research fellowship between m1 and m2 is a good idea. Some specialities, including anesthesia, are not very research oriented. If you want to do, say, emergency medicine at a decent but not great university program, you don't really need to do research. Like Dopa said, your board scores matter the most. I had good scores, so no one really cared that I wasn't into research.

A friend in my class had average scores (like a 225 usmle) and he matched at a pretty good university program for general surgery. The program director said he ranked him over other applicants because of his strong research. So having research can help, at least it did that once, heh.

Since starting residency I've done a few projects. I'm really not into research, but I felt obligated just to have something on my fellowship application. From what I've been told, where you did your residency, your LORs, and your academic productivity are some of the more important things for your fellowship application. So if you know you want to do a fellowship now, you might as well get started padding your resume.

Bottom line: having the complete package (good scores AND research) is ideal. It will only help. However, research is not required for most specialities and its importance is probably over emphasized on SDN. I would encourage you to do research if you want to do something competitive like a surgical subspeciality or if you know you want to a GI fellowship or something.

 

[Postictal Raiden]

It really depends on your goals. If you want to do something competitive and/or you want to go to a top academic program, you really ought to do research, and doing a research fellowship between m1 and m2 is a good idea. Some specialities, including anesthesia, are not very research oriented. If you want to do, say, emergency medicine at a decent but not great university program, you don't really need to do research. Like Dopa said, your board scores matter the most. I had good scores, so no one really cared that I wasn't into research.

A friend in my class had average scores (like a 225 usmle) and he matched at a pretty good university program for general surgery. The program director said he ranked him over other applicants because of his strong research. So having research can help, at least it did that once, heh.

Since starting residency I've done a few projects. I'm really not into research, but I felt obligated just to have something on my fellowship application. From what I've been told, where you did your residency, your LORs, and your academic productivity are some of the more important things for your fellowship application. So if you know you want to do a fellowship now, you might as well get started padding your resume.

Bottom line: having the complete package (good scores AND research) is ideal. It will only help. However, research is not required for most specialities and its importance is probably over emphasized on SDN. I would encourage you to do research if you want to do something competitive like a surgical subspeciality or if you know you want to a GI fellowship or something.

Will doing bench research during summer of M1 helps one chances of doing clinical research during rotations?

 

[DopaDO]

Thanks, I remember when you posted the AMA. Congrats man. Were you SSP at all, or is that irrelevant when it comes to ACGME matches?

Thanks! I was SSP, but I don't think it matters very much. AOA is huge in the MD world, but most PDs are unaware of what SSP even is in my experience.

It'd be great if SSP could become more standardized. The admissions requirements vary greatly from school to school. It is a complete joke at my school - minimum GPA is so low it encompasses around 60% of the class. Of those that qualify, members are voted in by peers from the class currently in SSP (the year above). I've heard it's more rigorous at other institutions, but the inconsistency is really bad. /Rant

Long story short, being SSP won't hurt but I doubt it means much.

 

[cliquesh]

Will doing bench research during summer of M1 helps one chances of doing clinical research during rotations?

I think people hold bench research in higher regards than clinical research, at least where I am. The problem with bench research is that it usually takes a while to get anything published. I'm not sure you could complete the experiment over the summer. (You didn't ask this; I read the question wrong)

I don't think it will really help. It might; I don't know. But no one asked about my research qualifcations when I was a medical student. I just asked if they had anything I could help with and they would just give me a project. In residency, people will bombard you with research projects, and they don't care about your qualifications.

Learning bench science research skills WILL help you with other lab based research you get involved with in the future (like in residency).

Just to be clear. I am no expert on research. I actually hate it, so I wouldn't take my word as gospel.

 

[cliquesh]

Thanks! I was SSP, but I don't think it matters very much. AOA is huge in the MD world, but most PDs are unaware of what SSP even is in my experience.

It'd be great if SSP could become more standardized. The admissions requirements vary greatly from school to school. It is a complete joke at my school - minimum GPA is so low it encompasses around 60% of the class. Of those that qualify, members are voted in by peers from the class currently in SSP (the year above). I've heard it's more rigorous at other institutions, but the inconsistency is really bad. /Rant

Long story short, being SSP won't hurt but I doubt it means much.

I was also in SSP and my experience echos DopaDo's. No one mentioned it during the interview process.

I heard AOA programs value it, but I didn't interview at any AOA programs.

 

[pavetta]

I I ended up having around 6 research experiences with several pubs. I had no research going into 3rd year and got all of it by being aggressive and being eager to get involved. I wasn't afraid to cold call other institutions in my area. Certainly doing research between M1 and M2 is good but it certainly isn't necessary. You can manage research and clinicals. Just work hard .

Did you attend a school where you did most of your rotations in the same hospital? I'll pretty much be living out of my suitcase for years 3 and 4, so I don't think this is feasible either, ugh.

 

[DopaDO]

Did you attend a school where you did most of your rotations in the same hospital? I'll pretty much be living out of my suitcase for years 3 and 4, so I don't think this is feasible either, ugh.

I had a core site, yes. almost all my electives and pretty much my entire fourth year was spent elsewhere though. I didn't know that there are schools that don't have all the core rotations in the same area. Will the rotations be in the same region? Where do you go out of curiosity?

While it will be a little more challenging, you should still find research. Just plan ahead and tell the places you contact that you will be there for X amount of time etc etc. I did a few of my projects at home on my computer and only met w my PI 3 or 4 times. It's definitely managable.

 

[Awesome Sauceome]

A couple questions:

One a more general question: Count me as ignorant, but I do wonder why surgical specialties (besides maybe Neurosurg) want research so much? I mean it would seem to me that research was more applicable to medicine specialties and that surgical residencies should be focused on getting the surgical skills down, particularly since the time crunch of now having the 80 hour work weeks? Just seems sort of contradictory to what one would expect? I just find it interesting.

Does anyone have a decent way of targeting whether or not a lab/clinic/hospital is going to get you somewhere? I mean should you go in and basically point blank say within your first couple of meetings that your goal is to publish (anything for that matter). I have been doing basic science research as a full time job for the past 2 years at a medical school. My lab is very small and unconventional and we have had only 1 pub in the time that I have been here (and it was on years old data so no name on the pub for me). Meanwhile other labs that we work with have been hitting like 4-6 a year no problem (albeit they have more resources and more importantly, slave labo.... I mean PhD students). Had I known that this was going to be a dead zone I wouldnt have taken this job, but its like I didnt really know until like 6 months in, at which point it was like too late. So how does one make a quick judgement call on whether or not lab/clinic is going to give you real stuff so that way you arent just wasting time and can produce even some little stuff.

edit: after this experience and from working for years in undergrad, I basically never want to do bench work ever again, so my question applies more-or-less to clinical and maybe translational work.

 

[moonwake]

A couple questions:

One a more general question: Count me as ignorant, but I do wonder why surgical specialties (besides maybe Neurosurg) want research so much? I mean it would seem to me that research was more applicable to medicine specialties and that surgical residencies should be focused on getting the surgical skills down, particularly since the time crunch of now having the 80 hour work weeks? Just seems sort of contradictory to what one would expect? I just find it interesting.

Does anyone have a decent way of targeting whether or not a lab/clinic/hospital is going to get you somewhere? I mean should you go in and basically point blank say within your first couple of meetings that your goal is to publish (anything for that matter). I have been doing basic science research as a full time job for the past 2 years at a medical school. My lab is very small and unconventional and we have had only 1 pub in the time that I have been here (and it was on years old data so no name on the pub for me). Meanwhile other labs that we work with have been hitting like 4-6 a year no problem (albeit they have more resources and more importantly, slave labo.... I mean PhD students). Had I known that this was going to be a dead zone I wouldnt have taken this job, but its like I didnt really know until like 6 months in, at which point it was like too late. So how does one make a quick judgement call on whether or not lab/clinic is going to give you real stuff so that way you arent just wasting time and can produce even some little stuff.

edit: after this experience and from working for years in undergrad, I basically never want to do bench work ever again, so my question applies more-or-less to clinical and maybe translational work.

Clinical research is way better than bench IMO (I did both and preferred clinical)

 

[hallowmann]

Clinical research is way better than bench IMO (I did both and preferred clinical)

You also tend to find more quick publishers in clinical research. Unlike the PIs that are sitting compiling data for years, the physicians tend to want to hit the topic hard and fast, because they have other things to do. That's my experience at least.

As far as why surgical specialties like research, the reason is because they're competitive. They're not necessarily out to make you the best surgeons (they already assume that that will happen in their program). When a hundred people are vying for 1 spot, they want to know what you'll bring to the program. Research is one of those few tangible and financially beneficial things that most university residency programs can judge prior to selecting a resident.

It's also a good way to gauge interest in the field. If you spent time doing research on something, the assumption is that you're actually interested in it to put in the little spare time you have during med school.

 

[Alakazam123]

You also tend to find more quick publishers in clinical research. Unlike the PIs that are sitting compiling data for years, the physicians tend to want to hit the topic hard and fast, because they have other things to do. That's my experience at least.

As far as why surgical specialties like research, the reason is because they're competitive. They're not necessarily out to make you the best surgeons (they already assume that that will happen in their program). When a hundred people are vying for 1 spot, they want to know what you'll bring to the program. Research is one of those few tangible and financially beneficial things that most university residency programs can judge prior to selecting a resident.

It's also a good way to gauge interest in the field. If you spent time doing research on something, the assumption is that you're actually interested in it to put in the little spare time you have during med school.

1. What if there is no clinical research going on in a particular field and only bench research? This appears to be the case with ophthalmology at my medical school.

2. Suppose you want to apply for ophtho residency but your research is in neurology, BUT you got your name on a ton of papers. Will this matter?

3. How do you squeeze in research during MS1 and MS2?

4. Can you squeeze in bench research during MS3 and MS4, outside of the research months?

 

[rg2o3]

1. What if there is no clinical research going on in a particular field and only bench research? This appears to be the case with ophthalmology at my medical school.

2. Suppose you want to apply for ophtho residency but your research is in neurology, BUT you got your name on a ton of papers. Will this matter?

3. How do you squeeze in research during MS1 and MS2?

4. Can you squeeze in bench research during MS3 and MS4, outside of the research months?

Also, how crucial is it that we get research. Coming into 1st year, I have Medicine, Neuro, EM, and FM on my mind. How horrible will my chances be without research?

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Also, how crucial is it that we get research. Coming into 1st year, I have Medicine, Neuro, EM, and FM on my mind. How horrible will my chances be without research?

Depends on if you want to climb the academic ladder or not. If you just want a solid program that will train you to be a great clinician then it won’t really affect you at all.

For Neuro and IM in particular if you want a university level program that’s a little higher ranked that will open doors to the competitive fellowships then you’ll want research.

 

[Alakazam123]

Depends on if you want to climb the academic ladder or not. If you just want a solid program that will train you to be a great clinician then it won’t really affect you at all.

For Neuro and IM in particular if you want a university level program that’s a little higher ranked that will open doors to the competitive fellowships then you’ll want research.

Anything on my questions?

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Anything on my questions?

1. Get resourceful. Look outside your schools network.

2. Yes it matters. If you don’t have a single research experience in the field you are applying but only have research in a different field people are going to wonder why. Pubs are pubs, but it won’t be as good as research in the field you are applying. Especially with something as competitive as ophtho.

3. You don’t take a summer break? I’m confused at what you mean.

4. Bench research takes forever to publish. Doing it between 3rd and 4th year would be useless as it would never make it to your residency application.

 

[rg2o3]

Depends on if you want to climb the academic ladder or not. If you just want a solid program that will train you to be a great clinician then it won’t really affect you at all.

For Neuro and IM in particular if you want a university level program that’s a little higher ranked that will open doors to the competitive fellowships then you’ll want research.

Thanks. Definitely not concerned with high academic programs. Just a solid program that will teach me to be competent in my field.

 

[Alakazam123]

1. Get resourceful. Look outside your schools network.

2. Yes it matters. If you don’t have a single research experience in the field you are applying but only have research in a different field people are going to wonder why. Pubs are pubs, but it won’t be as good as research in the field you are applying. Especially with something as competitive as ophtho.

3. You don’t take a summer break? I’m confused at what you mean.

4. Bench research takes forever to publish. Doing it between 3rd and 4th year would be useless as it would never make it to your residency application.

As for number 3, I mean during the year, like including classes, etc.

 

[Alakazam123]

1. Get resourceful. Look outside your schools network.

2. Yes it matters. If you don’t have a single research experience in the field you are applying but only have research in a different field people are going to wonder why. Pubs are pubs, but it won’t be as good as research in the field you are applying. Especially with something as competitive as ophtho.

3. You don’t take a summer break? I’m confused at what you mean.

4. Bench research takes forever to publish. Doing it between 3rd and 4th year would be useless as it would never make it to your residency application.

Also, For #4, I am referring to doing research DURING MS3 and MS4. At my school we only have 8 weeks for each year that we can take as elective time. Can you try to squeeze in more time outside of this is what I'm wondering?

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Also, For #4, I am referring to doing research DURING MS3 and MS4. At my school we only have 8 weeks for each year that we can take as elective time. Can you try to squeeze in more time outside of this is what I'm wondering?

You’ll have to talk to people at your school about that, as I don’t think I can answer that question.