Where are all the gung-ho, incoming pharmacy students now?

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oldstock said:
c'mon, you know yourself what you've just said there is not entirely true !! ;)
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That is true to some extent in healthcare, but for engineering, law, business, it does matter...
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BMBiology said:
^ you will never be satisfied when you work for a corporation.
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True that. Just turned down a director position I thought I always wanted to start a LTC/Compounding pharmacy. Best decision I've ever made.
 
The $100k-120k salary quickly can easily drop to the equivalent of $70-90k gross income when you factor in student loans and the additional taxes you would have to pay by being in a higher bracket. There are about 3 students who graduate from pharmacy school every year for every job that opens up in an already saturated market. Tuition also continues to rise.

If you want to earn $100k/year and live in a metro area, software engineering will provide you with just that - plus better benefits, 4 years less education time, $200k less debt, and a work environment that a chain retail pharmacist would kill for.
 
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stoichiometrist said:
The $100k-120k salary quickly can easily drop to the equivalent of $70-90k gross income when you factor in student loans and the additional taxes you would have to pay by being in a higher bracket. There are about 3 students who graduate from pharmacy school every year for every job that opens up in an already saturated market. Tuition also continues to rise.

If you want to earn $100k/year and live in a metro area, software engineering will provide you with just that - plus better benefits, 4 years less education time, $200k less debt, and a work environment that a chain retail pharmacist would kill for.
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Do you know anyone that got a 100k/year as a software engineer right out of school?

http://swz.salary.com/SalaryWizard/Software-Engineer-I-Salary-Details-Miami-FL.aspx
 
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Baller MD said:
Yeah. If you go to a school like Stanford. Big tech companies recruit heavily from there. But then again, not everyone is smart enough to go to Stanfy.
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Lol... But you can go to podunk pharmacy or med school and make 130k+ and 200k+ respectively... I know the loan and the extra schooling suck, but with some planning one can pay your loan in 5-7 years...
 
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BestDoctorEver said:
To be honest with you, I was shocked when that girl's mom told me that was the best offer she got (a MIT grad!). I feel like many in SDN and especially people in pharmacy and allo don't realize how difficult is it to break into the six figure. Less than 10% of americans make 100k+/year and the two pharmacists that I know make 130K+; therefore, it's not that bad. But I think pharmacy organizations should try to put a break on pharm school expansion before you guys become like law school--only graduates from the top 14 can command high salary...
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Way less than 5% of American wage earners make more than 100k. ..
 
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owlegrad said:
So residency matching is not big deal? So people don't care where they match or what field? Since it is no big deal?

Go troll somewhere else, no one is buying it. ;)
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I thought he was saying that people don't not worry about finding a residency that much as long as they are a US grad... But for ultra competitive residencies, you would have to score high on step1 and be well rounded applicant...
 
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BestDoctorEver said:
Lol... But you can go to podunk pharmacy or med school and make 130k+ and 200k+ respectively... I know the loan and the extra schooling suck, but with some planning one can pay your loan in 5-7 years...
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With surplus pharmacy students graduating in the future that everyone keeps talking about, I think the "where you went to school" issue is going to eventually become important like it is for med students competing for residencies.

Matter of fact, I wouldn't be surprised if some sort of ranking of graduates developed too.
 
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type b pharmD said:
Way less than 5% of American wage earners make more than 100k. ..
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Not exactly. Having 200 k in student loans will make your 120 k look like 75 k :(

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Top 25%: $67,280

Top 50%: >$33,048

- See more at: http://www.financialsamurai.com/how...me-earners-make-percent/#sthash.Wd4Rqc6G.dpuf
 
BestDoctorEver said:
I thought he was saying that people don't not worry about finding a residency that much as long as they are a US grad... But for ultra competitive residencies, you would have to score high on step1 and be well rounded applicant...
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That would be comparable to how most pharmacists can find a job, but you need to be competitive for your dream job, no?
 
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owlegrad said:
That would be comparable to how most pharmacists can find a job, but you need to be competitive for your dream job, no?
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True, but not many are gunning for ultra competitive specialties from the get go... For instance, I am interested in FM/psych, which a 'potted plant' (borrowed from a SDN member) can match as long as they don't have major red flags in their application...
 
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BestDoctorEver said:
I thought he was saying that people don't not worry about finding a residency that much as long as they are a US grad... But for ultra competitive residencies, you would have to score high on step1 and be well rounded applicant...
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This.
 
owlegrad said:
So residency matching is not big deal? So people don't care where they match or what field? Since it is no big deal?

Go troll somewhere else, no one is buying it. ;)
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Quote my whole statement, please. ;)

PS If you think I'm a troll why don't you go through my post history first before you call me out since you're the administrator and all.
 
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stoichiometrist said:
The $100k-120k salary quickly can easily drop to the equivalent of $70-90k gross income when you factor in student loans and the additional taxes you would have to pay by being in a higher bracket. There are about 3 students who graduate from pharmacy school every year for every job that opens up in an already saturated market. Tuition also continues to rise.

If you want to earn $100k/year and live in a metro area, software engineering will provide you with just that - plus better benefits, 4 years less education time, $200k less debt, and a work environment that a chain retail pharmacist would kill for.
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hahahah well let me just do a BS in Computer Science and go look for a software engineering job that noone else is applying for! You'd be extremely lucky to get a rejection letter with all of the competition for said ideal job. If you could get one of those jobs, you will probably get every pharmacist job you apply for after pharmacy school because you're that gifted in getting employment!
 
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nextgenpharmer said:
hahahah well let me just do a BS in Computer Science and go look for a software engineering job that noone else is applying for! You'd be extremely lucky to get a rejection letter with all of the competition for said ideal job. If you could get one of those jobs, you will probably get every pharmacist job you apply for after pharmacy school because you're that gifted in getting employment!
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Sounds just like how pharmacy is becoming, or has already become in many areas. Even with some of the older pharmacists retiring, there are still about 15,000 new grads who enter the job market per year competing for 4,000 or fewer new jobs generated every year.

Unemployment for software engineers is nearly zero in my area. Granted, there may be a bubble, but starting salaries of $100k/year are very common, if not the norm.
 
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stoichiometrist said:
Sounds just like how pharmacy is becoming, or has already become in many areas. Even with some of the older pharmacists retiring, there are still about 15,000 new grads who enter the job market per year competing for 4,000 or fewer new jobs generated every year.

Unemployment for software engineers is nearly zero in my area. Granted, there may be a bubble, but starting salaries of $100k/year are very common, if not the norm.
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You must live in silicon valley...
 
I'm in the Bay Area and the unemployment rate is miniscule, but that doesn't mean they're hiring every tom, dick, and harry with a software engineering background.
 
confettiflyer said:
I'm in the Bay Area and the unemployment rate is miniscule, but that doesn't mean they're hiring every tom, dick, and harry with a software engineering background.
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but they do in pharmacy ?? ;) jk
 
Baller MD said:
Why don't you get out while you still can?
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Yes, in fact that is what I am doing. Not getting in this mess from the beginning is the key.
 
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BMBiology said:
you shouldn't expect much if you are just "average" anyways.
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That is life! there will be top caliber people in everything to all the way down... But to tell someone to look at google salary for engineers and use that as a metric for all engineers is very misguided... Not everyone can get into Harvard med school/law school/dental school etc...
 
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When did I compare Google
engineers' salary to other engineers? Obviously most people know they make more.
 
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Google is probably the most unicorn of all the unicorn places to work in terms of benefits and work environment. Their salaries are close to the norm for software engineers, who make about as much as pharmacists in gross income - at least for now.
 
Never truly hated any of my pharmacy jobs. The first was retail which paid well and had the opportunity to work a lot of shifts. But it was retail and I ended up working too much. The second was solid hospital job that paid me equal to the retail (nights) but was too damn far and the people were dinguses. The third (current) is still hospital at nights but is significantly closer than the last one, pays more, is a lot less work, has less responsibilities, and has less douchey people. I'm making great strides for myself since only graduating a year and a half ago.
 
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The difference between engineers and pharmacists is you know if you get a job as a pharmacist, you'll make $55 give or take some dollars. No matter how bad you are that will be your rate. I've seen some bad floaters but they still make the same as my staff pharmacist who I think is pretty good.

As an engineer, your salary will have a huge range from over 100k to under 50k. With engineering there are more opportunities to move up but that will take time. Pharmacists either have to own their own pharmacy or move up and out as a pharmacist to make money. I did not put in 6 years to not use my license as a pharmacy supervisor or move up even higher.

In their lifetime I would find it hard for your average engineer to make more then your average pharmacist since average is still over 100k while average for an engineer is at best 75k after working for years.
 
^ maybe in 2006 but now:

Bad pharmacists = no hours.
 
msweph said:
Bad pharmacists in retail maybe.
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Hospital too, well...depends on how it's run, but bad new grads aren't even given an opportunity to interview with so many other/better trained pharmacists floating around.

The ultimate sign of desperation--using a registry/agency for pharmacists--has gone to pretty much zero.
 
BMBiology said:
..because all jobs require 6-8 years commitment and 150-200 k in student loan debt.
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I don't know anyone with 150- 200 k in student loan. You kept repeating this crap like it's the norm. If someone wants to go to all these new diploma mill school with high tuition and graduate with such debt, that's their problem. I have friends that graduated pharmacy school with less than 30 k in debt. We went to a state school, got scholarships and grants to help with tuition. Most people that lived at home with their parents have very low student loans. The key is to go to an affordable school .
 
Estrace said:
I don't know anyone with 150- 200 k in student loan. You kept repeating this crap like it's the norm. If someone wants to go to all these new diploma mill school with high tuition and graduate with such debt, that's their problem. I have friends that graduated pharmacy school with less than 30 k in debt. We went to a state school, got scholarships and grants to help with tuition. Most people that lived at home with their parents have very low student loans. The key is to go to an affordable school .
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Where have you been? Just look up the current tuition. Anyone with a calculator would know these students are graduating with a busload of debt. And not everyone has the luxury of living at home.
 
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Estrace said:
I don't know anyone with 150- 200 k in student loan. You kept repeating this crap like it's the norm. If someone wants to go to all these new diploma mill school with high tuition and graduate with such debt, that's their problem. I have friends that graduated pharmacy school with less than 30 k in debt. We went to a state school, got scholarships and grants to help with tuition. Most people that lived at home with their parents have very low student loans. The key is to go to an affordable school .
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you gotta really you guys are the rare case not the norm :)

agree w BMB.
 
Estrace said:
I don't know anyone with 150- 200 k in student loan. ...The key is to go to an affordable school .
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I went to one of the more affordable public schools out there. Tuition was something like 13-15k per year. For each graduating class they put out survey results of their employment offers along with student loan debt, and the entire time I was there the average debt was over 100k. I would be shocked if it wasn't higher in more expensive parts of the country.
 
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There is a treasure trove of data on the AACP website: http://www.aacp.org/resources/research/institutionalresearch/Pages/default.aspx
Look on the column of headings on the left.

Some highlights:

Tuition for every school: http://www.aacp.org/resources/research/institutionalresearch/Documents/Table 8.pdf

This infographic says the median amount borrowed in 2013 at public schools is $113k, and at private schools is $152k, and that 90.9% of students borrowed money.
http://www.aacp.org/resources/resea...macy Education Student Pharmacist Q and A.pdf

The number of applicants peaked in 2009 at 111,744 and has been declining ever since to 87,956 in 2012.
http://www.aacp.org/resources/resea...ments/applicationsbyyearschoolgender_1213.xls

However, the number of graduates has increased every year to 13,207 in 2012.
http://www.aacp.org/resources/research/institutionalresearch/Documents/FirstProfessional_13.xls
 
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Loans under 100k is more of the exception rather than the norm now days.
 
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pezdispenser said:
This infographic says the median amount borrowed in 2013 at public schools is $113k, and at private schools is $152k, and that 90.9% of students borrowed money.
http://www.aacp.org/resources/research/institutionalresearch/Documents/Infographic 1 - Pharmacy Education Student Pharmacist Q and A.pdf
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^ another great post.

According to the survey, just over 90% borrowed money for pharmacy school. A lot of parents are helping with the cost so the real cost is obviously higher. In addition, this is just pharmacy school tuition and does not include undergrads.

There is always a reporting bias when it comes to surveys. I suspect people who are knee deep in debt are less likely to report. Taking a look at the tuition and assuming their parents didn't help them, I am confident the majority of graduates have 150-200 k in student loan.
 
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pezdispenser said:
There is a treasure trove of data on the AACP website: http://www.aacp.org/resources/research/institutionalresearch/Pages/default.aspx
Look on the column of headings on the left.

Some highlights:

Tuition for every school: http://www.aacp.org/resources/research/institutionalresearch/Documents/Table 8.pdf

This infographic says the median amount borrowed in 2013 at public schools is $113k, and at private schools is $152k, and that 90.9% of students borrowed money.
http://www.aacp.org/resources/research/institutionalresearch/Documents/Infographic 1 - Pharmacy Education Student Pharmacist Q and A.pdf

The number of applicants peaked in 2009 at 111,744 and has been declining ever since to 87,956 in 2012.
http://www.aacp.org/resources/resea...ments/applicationsbyyearschoolgender_1213.xls

However, the number of graduates has increased every year to 13,207 in 2012.
http://www.aacp.org/resources/research/institutionalresearch/Documents/FirstProfessional_13.xls
Click to expand...

Pharmacy school truly has become a cash cow for the higher education complex. The trend is moving towards accepting anyone that is willing to pay the 100-200k price tag.
 
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pezdispenser said:
There is a treasure trove of data on the AACP website: http://www.aacp.org/resources/research/institutionalresearch/Pages/default.aspx
Look on the column of headings on the left.

Some highlights:

Tuition for every school: http://www.aacp.org/resources/research/institutionalresearch/Documents/Table 8.pdf

This infographic says the median amount borrowed in 2013 at public schools is $113k, and at private schools is $152k, and that 90.9% of students borrowed money.
http://www.aacp.org/resources/research/institutionalresearch/Documents/Infographic 1 - Pharmacy Education Student Pharmacist Q and A.pdf

The number of applicants peaked in 2009 at 111,744 and has been declining ever since to 87,956 in 2012.
http://www.aacp.org/resources/resea...ments/applicationsbyyearschoolgender_1213.xls

However, the number of graduates has increased every year to 13,207 in 2012.
http://www.aacp.org/resources/research/institutionalresearch/Documents/FirstProfessional_13.xls
Click to expand...

Less applicants, but increasing number of graduates which means lack of screening applications and increased class size.
Higher Education always has an answer... even if it means diluting the PharmD degree to the point of no return.
 
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^ you can't stop ignorant people. You have people borrowing 350 k so they can attend a for-profit school like California Northstate University. The worst part? The school does not qualify for federal loans. Yup, 350 k all in private loans.

Just take a look at the number of people still applying to this new school. Over 1300. That is just stupid.
 
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BMBiology said:
^ you can't stop ignorant people. You have people borrowing 350 k so they can attend a for-profit school like California Northstate University. The worst part? The school does not qualify for federal loans. Yup, 350 k all in private loans.

Just take a look at the number of people still applying to this new school. Over 1300. That is just stupid.
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even more strange is that they know everything before coming in.... :smack::smack:
 
Well, I guess we were lucky then.
I can't imagine graduating from pharmacy school with $150 k in debt.
 
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