where are the men in psychiatry/mental health?

[vistaril]

I mean where are the real men of course.....men who act like.....men.

I had a conversation with a psychiatrist the other day(nominally a man I suppose) who mentioned that his 13 year old daughter could beat him in an arm wrestling match. The most embarassing part of this wasn't that his 13 year old daughter has more physical strength than him, although that is definately embarassing. The worst part about it is that he doesn't feel shame about this and can speak freely about it to a virtual stranger.

A male lcsw/therapist in one of the offices I work in frequently discusses watching some absurd show for women(one of those reality shows where wives bicker) every week with his wife. I looked at him like he had 4 eyeballs when he told me this. And again, with no shame on his part.

I see more of this in mental health than any other field....not just in health care, but maybe any other field(short of stuff like cosmetology of course) period. And it's not pleasant to observe.

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[TexasPhysician]

The better question is why are all female dermatologists attractive?

 

[vistaril]

The better question is why are all female dermatologists attractive?

a few points:

1) while derm females are definately more attractive on average than other specialties, it's not like every single derm female is an 8 or above. So sometimes this is overstated I think. if you compared derm females to, say, the average young PA student(and not career switchers) I think it wouldn't even be close and the derm female residents would lose in a landslide.
2) derm is competitive, and while obviously scores play a large part in who is competitive for competive fields, being attractive(whether male or female) is a huge bonus as well. If the resume are remotely close, the girl who is very cute has an edge over the girl who is average looking. That's the way it is and will always be....so there is a bit of selection in that way too.

 

[vistaril]

Are you f---ing kidding me, vistaril? Do you really perpetuate gender stereotypes? If I had to guess I'd say you see what you're seeing more in psych because we tend to be more aware of this nonsense.

I don't see anything nonsensical about differences between men and women, evolutionary biology, basic drives, etc.....it's nonsensical to pretend these don't exist or to minimize them.

 

[nancysinatra]

You met a male LCSW?

 

[vistaril]

You met a male LCSW?

well...I don't know if I would call him a man really, but I'm pretty sure he was xy.

 

[michaelrack]

I mean where are the real men of course.....men who act like.....men.

.

I am here

 

[birchswing]

What is the name of this developmental stage? I'm not asking to be facetious. But it's the one where you rely on your friends as a group to try things out as you detach from your parents before you go on to form an intimate relationship with someone. There are hierarchies, etc.

I think Vistaril and I both have missed some stages.

 

[Shikima]

Hey Vistaril, ready to hit the rifle range?

 

[vistaril]

I am here

well yes I agree....you do strike me as one of the few men I've met with mental health training who actually acts like a man for the most part. But I think it's important to note that you don't practice psychiatry on a day to day basis for the most part, also are BC in medicine, and practice mostly sleep medicine.

Most of the guys actually working in mental health on a day to day basis are not masculine in any way.

 

[vistaril]

Hey Vistaril, ready to hit the rifle range?

Although it's very rare(perhaps unheard of) to come across a real man who doesn't own guns and isn't comfortable with guns, having guns and even shooting regularly are no guarantee that some guy won't be a wannabe feminist/white knight guy whose masculinity has been sapped.

 

[Shikima]

Although it's very rare(perhaps unheard of) to come across a real man who doesn't own guns and isn't comfortable with guns, having guns and even shooting regularly are no guarantee that some guy won't be a wannabe feminist/white knight guy whose masculinity has been sapped.

Need to brush up on how to punish your liver better along with how to fight like a guy rather than being a passive-aggressive sissy.

 

[Salpingo]

I mean where are the real men of course.....men who act like.....men.

Not sure, but an internet forum is definitely a good place to look first.

 

[Trismegistus4]

I think it's funny that the next thread title in the forum at the time of this posting is "Concerned about Psychiatry falling by the wayside."

 

[MacDonaldTriad]

On the subject of guns and masculinity, check out this headline:

India uses gun license as sterilization incentive

I was looking for an old paper describing the incidence of gun ownership post vasectomy and found this instead. My memory is that sterilized men tend to compensate with gun collecting. I think sports cars are probably more socially acceptable now days.

 

[hamstergang]

The worst part about it is that he doesn't feel shame about this and can speak freely about it to a virtual stranger.
...
And again, with no shame on his part.
...
And it's not pleasant to observe.

Well people are becoming less afraid of being who they are, even if they don't fit your stereotypes. If it's that unpleasant for you, then maybe you should change your archaic expectations because the times are not changing in your favor.

 

[vistaril]

On the subject of guns and masculinity, check out this headline:

India uses gun license as sterilization incentive

I was looking for an old paper describing the incidence of gun ownership post vasectomy and found this instead. My memory is that sterilized men tend to compensate with gun collecting. I think sports cars are probably more socially acceptable now days.

Yes because Indian guys are typically appropriately masculine lmao.....

 

[vistaril]

Well people are becoming less afraid of being who they are, even if they don't fit your stereotypes. If it's that unpleasant for you, then maybe you should change your archaic expectations because the times are not changing in your favor.

I think it is true we are seeing more effeminate and downright embarrassing guys than ever before....I don't think that's a good thing, or something that is good for these guys either. They tend to be much more likely to get divorced, lose everything, be trapped in bad marriages, etc....and IMO much of the cultural downfall of the last several decades is due to this trend.

 

[nancysinatra]

Uh, Vistaril, I think you meant to post this in the Ortho forum. Why would a stereotypical male go into a field that is all about getting in touch with your feelings? I'm a female and even I feel the need to wretch at times over how gooey this field is.

 

[novopsych]

I mean where are the real men of course.....men who act like.....men.

I had a conversation with a psychiatrist the other day(nominally a man I suppose) who mentioned that his 13 year old daughter could beat him in an arm wrestling match. The most embarassing part of this wasn't that his 13 year old daughter has more physical strength than him, although that is definately embarassing. The worst part about it is that he doesn't feel shame about this and can speak freely about it to a virtual stranger.

A male lcsw/therapist in one of the offices I work in frequently discusses watching some absurd show for women(one of those reality shows where wives bicker) every week with his wife. I looked at him like he had 4 eyeballs when he told me this. And again, with no shame on his part.

I see more of this in mental health than any other field....not just in health care, but maybe any other field(short of stuff like cosmetology of course) period. And it's not pleasant to observe.

I know exactly what you're talking about. I'm a woman, but I've got the horse sense of a midwesterner, on account of that I was raised in the midwest. I’ve never done this before on an Internet forum, but these rumors to rest that I am a troll, I will reveal my name. I am Libbay. I am a psychiatrist and dancer. I grew up in the alluvial plains of Iowa. My mommy and daddy raised us on a farm, adjacent to a backwater slough.

I need you to know something about me. My own parents were not allowed to dance at their own wedding reception. That does something to a girl. It lights a fire. I've been married to three men like the type you mentioned who couldn't keep up with me.

Private message me if you'd like to talk more about where this could go. I hold myself to ruthlessly high standards and I expect the same of those around me. I can tell that you do the same. I can tell you are a real man. And I am a real woman.

 

[erg923]

I mean where are the real men of course.....men who act like.....men.

There was a really good NPR story about what it means to "be/act like a man" recently.

If nurturing is not something you dig, then you are only taking things away from those who are important to you, vistaril. I think fatherhood has a wayof putting things like thus into perspective, so I would probably be less forgiving if you had kids, but I know you don't.

Look, we no longer have to hunt Woolly Mammoth and club our women and there is, from a mental health perspective, not much to be gained from trying to fill stereotypes for the satisfaction others who find it "painful to observe them." With all the psychological literature out there, how could a trained mental health professional feel that we should discourage people from being themselves, having their own interests, and fitting as prepackage stereotype?

I am actually asking this. Do you think this benefits a person's mental health? If so, do you have literature to support this?

 

[nancysinatra]

I mean where are the real men of course.....men who act like.....men.

I had a conversation with a psychiatrist the other day(nominally a man I suppose) who mentioned that his 13 year old daughter could beat him in an arm wrestling match. The most embarassing part of this wasn't that his 13 year old daughter has more physical strength than him, although that is definately embarassing. The worst part about it is that he doesn't feel shame about this and can speak freely about it to a virtual stranger.

I don't think the issue here is about declining standards of masculinity in the mental health profession. I think it is about declining standards of arm strength, which I hear has been going down across genders in all professions (except bodybuilding) for over 100 years. Americans are getting weaker.

 

[OldPsychDoc]

Yes because Indian guys are typically appropriately masculine lmao.....

OK, so now we add the racial stereotypes to the gender stereotypes.

Ahh, vistaril...you rarely disappoint...

 

[OldPsychDoc]

I don't think the issue here is about declining standards of masculinity in the mental health profession. I think it is about declining standards of arm strength, which I hear has been going down across genders in all professions (except bodybuilding) for over 100 years. Americans are getting weaker.

Good point. I'm going to require all of my residents to complete a Tough Mudder next summer. I'm sure there's something about that in the Milestones...

 

[nancysinatra]

OK, so now we add the racial stereotypes to the gender stereotypes.

Ahh, vistaril...you rarely disappoint...

I think Vistaril likes to get a rise out of people. A good quality.

 

[smalltownpsych]

I sort of agree with Vistaril on this. Just to the extent that many of my patients (more male than female, but not always of course) need to have someone who can talk about something other than "feelings" and can express anger appropriately and is comfortable with expressions of that. Many therapists are a bit too touchy feely for that. I don't think gender role stereotypes are the way to go, but is good to have some traditional male characteristics in our field, as well as the traditionally feminine. When it comes to gender roles, I'm pretty comfortable with androgyny.

 

[Shikima]

Pat? Are you here?

 

[Rothbard]

I hang clean 275 and was strongly considering psych, if it makes you feel any better.

 

[vistaril]

There was a really good NPR story about what it means to "be/act like a man" recently.

If nurturing is not something you dig, then you are only taking things away from those who are important to you, vistaril. I think fatherhood has a wayof putting things like thus into perspective, so I would probably be less forgiving if you had kids, but I know you don't.

Look, we no longer have to hunt Woolly Mammoth and club our women and there is, from a mental health perspective, not much to be gained from trying to fill stereotypes for the satisfaction others who find it "painful to observe them." With all the psychological literature out there, how could a trained mental health professional feel that we should discourage people from being themselves, having their own interests, and fitting as prepackage stereotype?

I am actually asking this. Do you think this benefits a person's mental health? If so, do you have literature to support this?

I think you and I are using somewhat different definitions of what it means to be a real man and be masculine. To me some of the things that go along with that are:

Being the leader of a family(for married men)
Being physically capable
Being able to decisively protect self and family
Understanding that men and women have different natural abilities and roles, and working within that structure
Being strong and assertive around women
Strong/confident gait, handshake, eye contact, etc
Knowing how to do things men should know how to do(I shouldn't need to list them)
Delegating certain child rearing and housekeeping tasks to women
Treating YOUR wife or wife to be like a woman, and demanding that she treat you like a man. Of course when she treats you like one you have to act like one.

That's just part of the list of course....there is more.

 

[vistaril]

I sort of agree with Vistaril on this. Just to the extent that many of my patients (more male than female, but not always of course) need to have someone who can talk about something other than "feelings" and can express anger appropriately and is comfortable with expressions of that. Many therapists are a bit too touchy feely for that. I don't think gender role stereotypes are the way to go, but is good to have some traditional male characteristics in our field, as well as the traditionally feminine. When it comes to gender roles, I'm pretty comfortable with androgyny.

The thing is women of all types are represented well in our field. You have appropriately feminine and family oriented women and we also have a great deal of militant feminist women and everyone in between.

 

[vistaril]

I hang clean 275 and was strongly considering psych, if it makes you feel any better.

Power lifting alone(just like having lots of guns) doesn't establish guaranteed man status....but it's certainly a point in the right direction.

 

[vistaril]

Good point. I'm going to require all of my residents to complete a Tough Mudder next summer. I'm sure there's something about that in the Milestones...

I wasn't saying that these men can't be outstanding mental health providers....my point was just that I would like it if there were more real men in our field. I don't feel care is suffering for the most part(although I agree with what a few others said about some clinical situations requiring real men).

 

[hamstergang]

Treating YOUR wife or wife to be like a woman, and demanding that she treat you like a man. Of course when she treats you like one you have to act like one.

And I'm guessing you're going to say that gay men aren't real men? Or have I misread this somehow?

You have appropriately feminine and family oriented women

And so now women have to be family oriented? What's inappropriate about them not being that?

Really, your views on gender are so messed up. This isn't the 50s, we don't force people to fit stereotypes they don't fit.

 

[jakeislove]

I hope this thread sticks around until there's time for a little fun.

 

[nancysinatra]

This isn't the 50s, we don't force people to fit stereotypes they don't fit.

At my residency program, somewhere in the south, they sure did.

 

[Salpingo]

I think you and I are using somewhat different definitions of what it means to be a real man and be masculine. To me some of the things that go along with that are:

Being the leader of a family(for married men)
Being physically capable
Being able to decisively protect self and family
Understanding that men and women have different natural abilities and roles, and working within that structure
Being strong and assertive around women
Strong/confident gait, handshake, eye contact, etc
Knowing how to do things men should know how to do(I shouldn't need to list them)
Delegating certain child rearing and housekeeping tasks to women
Treating YOUR wife or wife to be like a woman, and demanding that she treat you like a man. Of course when she treats you like one you have to act like one.

That's just part of the list of course....there is more.

Doesn't your fiancee out earn you? I feel like thats going to make 1, 4 and 8 tough. Or are you going to try to see where things go with Libbay?

 

[birchswing]

I think you and I are using somewhat different definitions of what it means to be a real man and be masculine. To me some of the things that go along with that are:

Being the leader of a family(for married men)
Being physically capable
Being able to decisively protect self and family
Understanding that men and women have different natural abilities and roles, and working within that structure
Being strong and assertive around women
Strong/confident gait, handshake, eye contact, etc
Knowing how to do things men should know how to do(I shouldn't need to list them)
Delegating certain child rearing and housekeeping tasks to women
Treating YOUR wife or wife to be like a woman, and demanding that she treat you like a man. Of course when she treats you like one you have to act like one.

That's just part of the list of course....there is more.

It sounds like a very easy and pleasant life if you are those things.

It reminds me of going to church when I was a kid. You could be good if you happened to be all of the things people had already decided were good. And then you could celebrate yourself. If you weren't, well it was off to hell--quite literally, a hell of self-hatred because you couldn't be what you *had* to be. It was as Albert Ellis calls it "musturbation" (when you believe that you must do something).

None of the things you list sound bad or unpleasant to be assuming you find someone who consents to the multi-party portions. But why the desire to make everyone else like that? Do you think the people around you are capable of doing all those things? Do you think they want to be all those things? If not, what is the purpose of setting this as an ideal and everything else as below it? If your pleas worked, they would only serve to create self-hatred.

So the question is: Are you lonely at the top (and why would you be? the life you described sounds great)? Or are you at the bottom?

 

[vistaril]

Doesn't your fiancee out earn you? I feel like thats going to make 1, 4 and 8 tough. Or are you going to try to see where things go with Libbay?

Oh I haven't been with her in some time now. Different people with different goals and ideals. She wasn't conforming to what I want, and I probably wasn't what she wanted anymore. Oh well.

 

[vistaril]

It sounds like a very easy and pleasant life if you are those things.

It reminds me of going to church when I was a kid. You could be good if you happened to be all of the things people had already decided were good. And then you could celebrate yourself. If you weren't, well it was off to hell--quite literally, a hell of self-hatred because you couldn't be what you *had* to be. It was as Albert Ellis calls it "musturbation" (when you believe that you must do something).

None of the things you list sound bad or unpleasant to be assuming you find someone who consents to the multi-party portions. But why the desire to make everyone else like that?


Simply because I find the atmosphere more pleasing.

 

[vistaril]

And I'm guessing you're going to say that gay men aren't real men? Or have I misread this somehow?


And so now women have to be family oriented? What's inappropriate about them not being that?

Really, your views on gender are so messed up. This isn't the 50s, we don't force people to fit stereotypes they don't fit.

I'm not forcing anyone to do anything....if guys want to let their woman control them, do the dishes and laundry when they are married, feed the baby, etc more power to them. I don't particularly want to see it, hence the original post.

But I think in many cases it's not in their best interests because then their woman is less likely to respect them. There is an often cited study about how married guys who do household chores/cleaning have much less sex than guys who assume more traditional roles.

 

[nancysinatra]

I find it hard to respect couples where either of them does the dishes. That's what servants are for.

 

[hamstergang]

But I think in many cases it's not in their best interests because then their woman is less likely to respect them.

You may be surprised to learn that many people don't share your values/priorities and so you really don't know what's in their best interest.

And maybe you missed my question on your thoughts on gay men, who typically don't have a woman like you're describing "real" men do.

 

[nancysinatra]

You may be surprised to learn that many people don't share your values/priorities and so you really don't know what's in their best interest.

Yeah, but a lot of people do. ;-)

 

[vistaril]

You may be surprised to learn that many people don't share your values/priorities and so you really don't know what's in their best interest.

And maybe you missed my question on your thoughts on gay men, who typically don't have a woman like you're describing "real" men do.

Well most guys in a marriage still in the prime of their life want to have a frequent and satisfying sexual relationship with their wife, for example. Look yo the nyt article/study just 6 or so months ago that made headlines- the gist is that domestic servitude makes a guy undesirable in the eyes and loins of his woman. For all your ranting, I am confident all these blue pill guys vacuuming aren't real happy to know that their wife doesn't respect them and doesn't want to sleep with them.

 

[vistaril]

I find it hard to respect couples where either of them does the dishes. That's what servants are for.

Well yeah, but in some cases(not neccessarily with dishes) it is still a good idea for either person in a male-female exchange to maintain traditional roles even when it could be delegated to the help. Great example- about 8 years ago I was driving my dad's car to the beach on a short vacation with a new girl. Flat tire about an hour from destin....so I remember my dad had aaa on the car and I call them to fix it. We wait 20 or so mins for the guy to show up and he does it and we get back on the road and everything is cool. Or at least I thought. But it wasn't- what she saw was a young guy standing there like a doofus waiting for a real man to come do real man work. I should have just fixed the flat myself. Part of it May have even been subconscious on her part(but probably not).

 

[hamstergang]

Look yo the nyt article/study just 6 or so months ago that made headlines- the gist is that domestic servitude makes a guy undesirable in the eyes and loins of his woman.

No, what the study (which used data from 1992-1994 despite just making it into the NYT recently) showed was that males doing more stereotypical female chores was correlated with lower frequency of sex. It absolutely did not identify a cause or confounding variables, so you can't really claim that it was due to appearing undesireable. This is the kind of unscientific reading of a study that I would not expect from a doctor that champions EBM.

And for the 3rd time, do you just not like my gay question? You can just say so.

 

[Leo Aquarius]

 

[notdeadyet]

Let me see if I have this straight, Vistaril:

- you start training for a specialty and immediately see it's futility, lack of respect, and uselessness, but don't have the strength of conviction to switch to one of the many you believe in.
- you lie about your psych program's locale, it's prestige, and your level of training to impress strangers on an anonymous web forum. Repeatedly.
- you question the masculinity of entire races.
- you find being the "leader" of a family masculine, but find sharing responsibilities like housework to not be.
- you frequently find yourself needing to pay money to get women to take their clothes off for you.

I think you might be confusing "insecurity" with "masculinity." Common mistake...

 

[Ceke2002]

guaranteed man status

I'll just leave this here...

 

[erg923]

if guys want to let their woman control them, do the dishes and laundry when they are married, feed the baby, etc more power to them. I don't particularly want to see it, hence the original post.

You have no desire to feed your own child?! What kind of monster are you? Lol

Its painfully obvious that this is written buy someone who is neither married nor has children. If so, you'd likley get over all this silly nonsense. To think that marriage works well when partners "demand" things of one another tells me everything I need to know. Who the **** responds to "demands?!" lol

Vistaril, in case you arent aware, the man says the vow "to serve" as well...does he not?