where are the men in psychiatry/mental health?

[erg923]

I think you and I are using somewhat different definitions of what it means to be a real man and be masculine. To me some of the things that go along with that are:

Being the leader of a family(for married men)
Being physically capable
Being able to decisively protect self and family
Understanding that men and women have different natural abilities and roles, and working within that structure
Being strong and assertive around women
Strong/confident gait, handshake, eye contact, etc
Knowing how to do things men should know how to do(I shouldn't need to list them)
Delegating certain child rearing and housekeeping tasks to women
Treating YOUR wife or wife to be like a woman, and demanding that she treat you like a man. Of course when she treats you like one you have to act like one.

That's just part of the list of course....there is more.

For goodness sakes, no. No. No. The reason? I am a trained mental health professional who is aware of research on how gender sterotypes (racial stereotypes, cultural stereotypes, etc) impacts a person's mental health (hopefully something you care about deeply) and contributes to social ills such as racism, sexism, poverty/inequity, etc. Are you NOT a trained mentral health physician?! How are you not aware of this body of research? What do you mean you dont know your A-B-Cs?

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[erg923]

- you frequently find yourself needing to pay money to get women to take their clothes off for you.

Well, hes got "Lust" covered, obviously. What about the other 6?

I guess good Christians arent "real men" either, huh Vistaril???

 

[MacDonaldTriad]

I have a macho psychiatrist role model for you. Jay Scully, former navy seal and medical director of the APA. According to his bio, his wife told him that he would be a good pianist if he would only play slower and softer. He is able to disassemble and reassemble an M16 while making poignant interpretations that lead to the most powerful corrective emotional experiences. 6’ 4” and the nicest guy you will ever meet. He is easy to spot in APA board meetings because he is the guy chewing on nails.

 

[Shikima]

I have a macho psychiatrist role model for you. Jay Scully, former navy seal and medical director of the APA. According to his bio, his wife told him that he would be a good pianist if he would only play slower and softer. He is able to disassemble and reassemble an M16 while making poignant interpretations that lead to the most powerful corrective emotional experiences. 6’ 4” and the nicest guy you will ever meet. He is easy to spot in APA board meetings because he is the guy chewing on nails.

A true snake eater!

 

[erg923]

and everything is cool. Or at least I thought. But it wasn't- what she saw was a young guy standing there like a doofus waiting for a real man to come do real man work. I should have just fixed the flat myself. Part of it May have even been subconscious on her part(but probably not).

So, your views on appopriate roles for 6 billion people have been shaped by your subjective experience of being emasculated once?

 

[OldPsychDoc]

For goodness sakes, no. No. No. The reason? I am a trained mental health professional who is aware of how research on how gender sterotypes (racial stereotypes, cultural stereotypes, etc) impacts a person's mental health (hopefully something you care about deeply) and contributes to social ills such as racism, sexism, poverty/inequity, etc. Are you Not a trained mentral health physcian?! How are you not aware of this body of research? What do you mean you dont know your A-B-Cs?

He cited the only research that mattered to him: men who do house work apparently don't get laid. Therefore he hopes to increase his luck with the ladies by avoiding household chores. Maybe he should be driving around looking for women with flat tires he can change in order to demonstrate his reproductive fitness.

 

[MacDonaldTriad]

It is one of life’s biggest shames that virile tasks like post hole digging and laying pipe just don’t seem to come up as often as scrubbing showers and doing dishes. Vacuuming carpets makes me want to go to the pharmacy and ask for price checks on extra-large condoms just to compensate.

 

[Shikima]

So, your views on appopriate roles for 6 billion people have been shaped by your being subjective experience of being emasculated once? Good grief...

oedipus complex

 

[smalltownpsych]

He cited the only research that mattered to him: men who do house work apparently don't get laid. Therefore he hopes to increase his luck with the ladies by avoiding household chores. Maybe he should be driving around looking for women with flat tires he can change in order to demonstrate his reproductive fitness.

It is one of life’s biggest shames that virile tasks like post hole digging and laying pipe just don’t seem to come up as often as scrubbing showers and doing dishes. Vacuuming carpets makes me want to go to the pharmacy and ask for price checks on extra-large condoms just to compensate.

Thanks for the laughs guys! Being on-call this week, I needed a little humor.

 

[HarryMTieboutMD]

This thread is simply epic! I definitely used the lack of masculinity in psychiatry to my advantage during residency interviews. As a seasoned distance/marathon runner and triathlete, this was hugely advantageous, at least for the conversation part of interviews, whereas were I applying for ortho, this would have been equivocal/even unfavorable: "Bro why did you stop at 26.2? I've done 6 ultras this year already!" "Why haven't you raced Kona yet?" "Because you are a b*tch!" Also, being able to competently talk about college/pro sports went a long way with some interviewers.

That said, I am glad psych is made up of largely beta men. I can tolerate the people who go into it because they don't like hard sciences/don't know medicine/want to be "warm and fuzzy," and I think that this variety of applicants can actually produce wonderful, empathetic clinicians. Our field will only go to **** if we start attracting ortho-type brahhhhs who didn't match ortho.

Oh, and I plan on marrying a woman who makes more money than me, wears the pants, insists on paying for things, yet still loves to cook. The last couple of women who I have dated have been of this nature, and it's awesome!

 

[vistaril]

No, what the study (which used data from 1992-1994 despite just making it into the NYT recently) showed was that males doing more stereotypical female chores was correlated with lower frequency of sex. It absolutely did not identify a cause or confounding variables, so you can't really claim that it was due to appearing undesireable. This is the kind of unscientific reading of a study that I would not expect from a doctor that champions EBM.

And for the 3rd time, do you just not like my gay question? You can just say so.

I'm just not sure what you want me to say about gay guys here? I feel it's one of those gotcha questions....why do I have to have a stated opinion on everything. But to answers, I think most gay men are sort of in there own category, and they are for the most part ok with that. The difference between the three groups in this case(gay guys, straight blue pill guys, and straight red pill guys) is that the straight guys and gay guys are seeking acceptance from different romantic interests, but the straight guys(comparing the two) are going after the same....so sure most gay guys don't act like real men or masculine men or whatever phrase you want to use, but they are happy with that and it in no way hinders them in most cases(depending on what their goals are).....

 

[vistaril]

I think some of you guys are taking attributing qualities to masculine guys/real men/alphas/whatever that don't necessarily go along with being a real man. You guys are inventing negative qualities to assign to people you just don't like.

 

[erg923]

I think some of you guys are taking attributing qualities to masculine guys/real men/alphas/whatever that don't necessarily go along with being a real man. You guys are inventing negative qualities to assign to people you just don't like.

Is that worse than randomly asserting behaviors that are "manly" and those that are not? lol
Grow up, kiddo...

 

[erg923]

And I still maintain that being a good (Catholic) Christian is counter to many things on your "list?" Thus, you view Christians as "not real men?" Perhaps you can clarify?

Here are some examples of what advise are wholly inconsistent with Christianity:

-"demanding" things of your wife
-being so stuck in "roles" that you wont (or dont think you should) help your wife with laundry, cooking, dishes, or feeding your child.
-lying about your psych program's locale, it's prestige, and your level of training to impress strangers on an anonymous web forum. Repeatedly.
- questioning the masculinity of entire races.
- paying money to get women to take their clothes off for you.

 

[vistaril]

And I still maintain that being good (Catholic) Christian in counter to many things on this list? Thus, you view Christians as "not real mean?"

-"demanding" things of your wife
-being so stuck in "roles" that you wont (or dont think you should) help your wife with laundry, cooking, dishes, or feeding your child.
-lying about your psych program's locale, it's prestige, and your level of training to impress strangers on an anonymous web forum. Repeatedly.
- questioning the masculinity of entire races.
- paying money to get women to take their clothes off for you.

you are confusing yourself I think.....simply being a Christian doesn't make one masculine/manly, and not being a Christian doesn't either. There are plenty of in name only males that are both Christian and agnostic/atheist.

As for a few individual points on your list- I've already explained many of those so try to keep up. Lying about things like my location, program, specific year of training was simply a way to attempt to stay anonymous. It's not my style to go around and search other posters locations based on their internet activity, but whatever to each their own. It's a fair point that even if one conceals their identity with such misdirections they should know they aren't truly anonymous anyways, which I'm cool with. Regarding the last point, it's pretty awesome....I think you should try it

 

[vistaril]

Is that worse than randomly asserting behaviors that are "manly" and those that are not? lol
Grow up, kiddo...

of course it's worse because I'm not inventing behaviors. I'm labeling behaviors, and it's fine for you to use your own words to do so. If you want to say some guy who vacuums is caring vs whipped, that's fine.

The difference isn't hard to understand.

 

[erg923]

There are plenty of in name only males that are both Christian and agnostic/atheist.

And you are one of them, is that what you are saying?
You are "Christian" but dont really care to act like one. Im confused?

 

[SomeDoc]

Vystaril, thanks for the laughs...your posts are so absurd that Im not sure if you are trolling or for real.

 

[erg923]

I'm at loss to why behavior that is viewed as caring/helping/loving by most anyone (eg., getting up with my son in middle of night so my wife can sleep) is viewed as "whipped" by you? What do you think this is about?

I love my wife more than myself (that what "love" is), thus I GLADLY sacrifie my happiness for hers. Im not sure what could be more "manly" than that?

 

[novopsych]

Oh I haven't been with her in some time now. Different people with different goals and ideals. She wasn't conforming to what I want, and I probably wasn't what she wanted anymore. Oh well.

Sounds like you are better off without her.

By the way, not hearing back from you yet is exactly what I expected from a real man I like that you aren't desperate.

One of my clients canceled today, and I wanted you to know that I spent an hour locked in my office doing interpretive dance to Paula Cole's "Where Have All the Cowboys Gone" while thinking of you. I don't even know what you looked like, but I felt your masculine energy running through me. I turned off the lights and my secretary was under strict instructions not to let any calls through.

 

[michaelrack]

I'm at loss to why behavior that is viewed as caring/helping/loving by most anyone (eg., getting up with my son in middle of night so my wife can sleep) is viewed as "whipped" by you? What do you think this is about?

I love my wife more than myself (that what "love" is), thus I GLADLY sacrifie my happiness for hers. Im not sure what could be more "manly" than that?

True, sacrifice is part of being a man, but not all sacrifice is manly. A man sacrificing his happiness for his wife's can be manly, neutral, or unmanly, depending on the circumstances.

 

[erg923]

Thanks for the rather pointless quibble regarding semantics. I'm sure the overall point was quite obvious, no?

 

[OldPsychDoc]

When we're done banging (no pun intended, I'm sure) this topic to death, maybe someone can help me get my head around this...
http://news.msn.com/offbeat/breaking-hello-kitty-not-a-cat-has-never-been-company-1

 

[Armadillos]

vistaril has really upped his trolling game, A+ work

I would love to know what it is that inspires him to come troll this hard though, like he wont post for awhile or posts more reasonably for awhile. Then all of of a sudden is a full on trolling onslaught for like a week.

 

[wolfvgang22]

This thread is almost as epic as my beard! LoL

 

[Ceke2002]

When we're done banging (no pun intended, I'm sure) this topic to death, maybe someone can help me get my head around this...
http://news.msn.com/offbeat/breaking-hello-kitty-not-a-cat-has-never-been-company-1

Case of lost in translation and media jumping on a report without double checking the facts with the company. Hello Kitty is a Cat, but she isn't, just like Mickey Mouse is a Mouse, but he isn't - ie they're both anthropomorphised characterisations of animals given human qualities. I don't have the link at hand, but someone actually interviewed the creator who basically said (paraphrased) "We never said Hello Kitty wasn't a cat, but we didn't say she was one either" and then went on to quantify the difference between a character designed to be seen as an actual cat, and a character of a cat that had been anthropomorphised. Make sense?

 

[vistaril]

I'm at loss to why behavior that is viewed as caring/helping/loving by most anyone (eg., getting up with my son in middle of night so my wife can sleep) is viewed as "whipped" by you? What do you think this is about?

I love my wife more than myself (that what "love" is), thus I GLADLY sacrifie my happiness for hers. Im not sure what could be more "manly" than that?

You guys just don't get it- what women may say they want and what they actually want are often two different things. Most women want their husbands to act like men. Now, it's likely that some women(for various reasons) are stuck with feminine men who have bought into a lot of media bs and haven't taken the red pill yet. Oh well- these women may actually prefer their husband to wake up in the middle of the night because their husband isn't going to actually act like a man anyways. So if the women are going to be married to such a guy anyways, may as well get a little more sleep. But it's not what they really want.

The fact that most of the guys in this forum(save the one guy who actually identified as having masculine qualities to start with) responded the way they did goes towards proving my original point....

Guys, stop asking how high when your wife says jump. They really don't want you to behave that way.

 

[xlithiumx]

Guys, stop asking how high when your wife says jump. They really don't want you to behave that way.

Says the single man who couldn't keep a woman more successful than he... Now, I don't think spouses should kow-tow to one another, but it also doesn't appear that you can reliably comment on the core features of a successful marriage.

 

[nancysinatra]

Does anyone else here suspect that Vistari and Novopsych are the same person?

 

[erg923]

You guys just don't get it- what women may say they want and what they actually want are often two different things. Most women want their husbands to act like men. Now, it's likely that some women(for various reasons) are stuck with feminine men who have bought into a lot of media bs and haven't taken the red pill yet. Oh well- these women may actually prefer their husband to wake up in the middle of the night because their husband isn't going to actually act like a man anyways. So if the women are going to be married to such a guy anyways, may as well get a little more sleep. But it's not what they really want.

The fact that most of the guys in this forum(save the one guy who actually identified as having masculine qualities to start with) responded the way they did goes towards proving my original point....

Guys, stop asking how high when your wife says jump. They really don't want you to behave that way.

Vistaril, my wife likes to sleep. I can assure you she prefers I get up within the baby at 3am as opposed to go the gun range. And I am more than happy to oblige. My baby is more fun than guns.

If you are ever able to keep a woman long enough to experience the above, it just may all start to sink in. But, thanks for the marriage advice.

 

[nancysinatra]

For goodness sakes, no. No. No. The reason? I am a trained mental health professional who is aware of research on how gender sterotypes (racial stereotypes, cultural stereotypes, etc) impacts a person's mental health (hopefully something you care about deeply) and contributes to social ills such as racism, sexism, poverty/inequity, etc. Are you NOT a trained mentral health physician?! How are you not aware of this body of research? What do you mean you dont know your A-B-Cs?

Well I am a trained American person, and I would never take advice about cultural stereotypes (pro or con, gender or otherwise) from a psychologist (or psychiatrist).

I'd sooner get advice from Johnnie Cash on this topic. That goes for all of you here.

 

[vistaril]

Says the single man who couldn't keep a woman more successful than he... Now, I don't think spouses should kow-tow to one another, but it also doesn't appear that you can reliably comment on the core features of a successful marriage.

In general I don't find career centered women very attractive. There are bunches of women out there who believe guys care about their salary, career, degrees, etc....the reality is most real men don't.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

Does anyone else here suspect that Vistari and Novopsych are the same person?

I thought maybe you were Novopsych. That's a compliment, btw.

 

[xlithiumx]

In general I don't find career centered women very attractive. There are bunches of women out there who believe guys care about their salary, career, degrees, etc....the reality is most real men don't.

For whatever it's worth, my wife and I maintain quite traditional gender roles (she is a stay at home mom and homemaker, I practice medicine, take care of the yard, fix the house, and do other "man" stuff) because that suits us. We are friends with folks who do the opposite. One of my best friends is a woman who is a radiologist. Her husband is as "real" as a man gets (he's a Harley-Davidson mechanic) and they have been going strong for nearly a decade. Get real dude. This "alpha-beta " "red pill - blue pill" garbage is so Paleolithic.

 

[OldPsychDoc]

Does anyone else here suspect that Vistari and Novopsych are the same person?

Novopsych generally appears to have some degree of empathy for their fellow humans, so I'm going to say No.

 

[nancysinatra]

2 things, just for the record.

Real men don't practice medicine, and certainly not psychiatry. Definitely not psychology. Real men don't shoot guns either. Real men are unemployed bow hunting Marlborough smokers who look and sound like Jim Croce. I'm not even sure Hemmingway qualified. But one thing's for sure: they're all dead.

The other thing is from my own personal life. I recently broke up with a guy who used the word "empathic" in casual conversation. I couldn't have cared less if he mowed some lawn or could fix some silly Toyota Camry (if he can fix the engine on a Porsche Carerra, then we'll talk), but that gooey sensitive new age stuff - yuck. Give me Omar Sharif over Stuart Smalley any day. Vistaril has a point. Sort of.

 

[nancysinatra]

Novopsych generally appears to have some degree of empathy for their fellow humans, so I'm going to say No.

Novopsych is a whack nut job too!

 

[xlithiumx]

I think Nancy and Vistaril are knocking boots. You people drank the same 1850 kool-aid.

 

[nancysinatra]

I thought maybe you were Novopsych. That's a compliment, btw.

See above.

 

[billypilgrim37]

Based on Vistaril's photo on his residency website (granted, only from the tie up), I'm certain I could out-arm wrestle him.

This thread is awesome.

I feel like I should yell downstairs for my wife to come, um, "duck under the desk" while I write a rant about how real men are feminists. There's already an open bottle of scotch sitting here, and a few dogs sleeping in the room, and I can stroke my Santa Claus beard all the while.

 

[vistaril]

For whatever it's worth, my wife and I maintain quite traditional gender roles (she is a stay at home mom and homemaker, I practice medicine, take care of the yard, fix the house, and do other "man" stuff) because that suits us. We are friends with folks who do the opposite. One of my best friends is a woman who is a radiologist. Her husband is as "real" as a man gets (he's a Harley-Davidson mechanic) and they have been going strong for nearly a decade. Get real dude. This "alpha-beta " "red pill - blue pill" garbage is so Paleolithic.

Well I will say you are at least keeping the frame, for the most part, as a man. I will add(and this is not a criticism as I am in the same boat) that because we practice in mental health we already start with a negative in terms of man points, so it's even more important that we maintain the frame other ways. Doctors, military officers, certain engineers, etc can get away with a lot more with respect to this. Just the way it is.

 

[nancysinatra]

Frank Sinatra was a real man.

 

[novopsych]

You guys just don't get it- what women may say they want and what they actually want are often two different things. Most women want their husbands to act like men. Now, it's likely that some women(for various reasons) are stuck with feminine men who have bought into a lot of media bs and haven't taken the red pill yet. Oh well- these women may actually prefer their husband to wake up in the middle of the night because their husband isn't going to actually act like a man anyways. So if the women are going to be married to such a guy anyways, may as well get a little more sleep. But it's not what they really want.

The fact that most of the guys in this forum(save the one guy who actually identified as having masculine qualities to start with) responded the way they did goes towards proving my original point....

Guys, stop asking how high when your wife says jump. They really don't want you to behave that way.

My horoscope mentioned you were coming, but I didn't know it would come like this. I can barely handle the teasing anymore.

Tame me, Vistaril. I'll let you fill me with your babies (it won't take as the works fell out some time ago, but my secretary has long agreed to be my surrogate should the need arise).

I know you'll keep me in suspense. And I'll keep you in the dance.

 

[novopsych]

Does anyone else here suspect that Vistari and Novopsych are the same person?

If we were the same person, I'd be dragging on a cig right now rather than all worked up.

 

[OldPsychDoc]

My horoscope mentioned you were coming, but I didn't know it would come like this. I can barely handle the teasing anymore.

Tame me, Vistaril. I'll let you fill me with your babies (it won't take as the works fell out some time ago, but my secretary has long agreed to be my surrogate should the need arise).

I know you'll keep me in suspense. And I'll keep you in the dance.

How are you at dancing on poles, NP?

 

[vistaril]

Based on Vistaril's photo on his residency website (granted, only from the tie up), I'm certain I could out-arm wrestle him.

This thread is awesome.

I feel like I should yell downstairs for my wife to come, um, "duck under the desk" while I write a rant about how real men are feminists. There's already an open bottle of scotch sitting here, and a few dogs sleeping in the room, and I can stroke my Santa Claus beard all the while.

Being a real man is more about mindset and approach than anything else. No idea if you can out arm wrestle me(I actually don't track down/look up personal info and pics of other posters in forums like this but to each their own), but if we actually did arm wrestle and I was beaten, it would be shameful and I would work to improve on that. That's what made the original comment from a coworker I noted so shameful- not simply that his young daughter could out arm wrestle him, but that he thinks it is cute and can talk openly about it with relative strangers. That is the terrible part.

Right now I'm working 60 percent in mental health and 40 percent pursuing my passion of home remodeling, repairing property, and then real estate secondary to those things......it's going to take a heck of a lot of work to succeed in the property business because it's incredibly competitive, but being around men who act like men is the biggest difference by far between the two.

 

[vistaril]

Frank Sinatra was a real man.

Lots more real men back then in Hollywood......now there a a few, but far too many jimmy Fallons and Adam sandbergs out there to counteract that.

 

[OldPsychDoc]

Right now I'm working 60 percent in mental health and 40 percent pursuing my passion of home remodeling, repairing property, and then real estate secondary to those things......it's going to take a heck of a lot of work to succeed in the property business because it's incredibly competitive, but being around men who act like men is the biggest difference by far between the two.

Whatever you say, V.

 

[hamstergang]

I'm just not sure what you want me to say about gay guys here? I feel it's one of those gotcha questions....

No, it was just that many of your "things real men do" involved a wife or woman, so I was wondering how you fit the gays into your stereotypes.

And while I appreciate your response, I find it interesting that you seemingly can only respond to one thought per post. I mentioned that you were basing your idea that more chores = less sex on data that's 20 years old, and also that you were concluding causality when none was proven. But you didn't address these points.

 

[nancysinatra]

No, it was just that many of your "things real men do" involved a wife or woman, so I was wondering how you fit the gays into your stereotypes.

And while I appreciate your response, I find it interesting that you seemingly can only respond to one thought per post. I mentioned that you were basing your idea that more chores = less sex on data that's 20 years old, and also that you were concluding causality when none was proven. But you didn't address these points.

Most people on SDN can't respond to any thoughts per post.