Where'd you match and what rank was it?

[moonwake]

I'm starting medical school in the fall and I'm wondering how people feel about their match this week, what they would have done differently about the interview process or how they ranked their choices. Anything is appreciated-

Cheers~

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[preDoGuy24]

People aren't going to answer this on a public forum.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[noke]

People aren't going to answer this on a public forum.

I will. I matched at my #1 choice for AOA Emergency Medicine: Carilion NRV. I attended 15 EM interviews, most of which were ACGME.

This program was new, but had unbridled potential and most importantly it was close to home which is where I decided I wanted to be. You have to go with your gut, and I am beyond thrilled to have matched at my top choice.

 

[moonwake]

I will. I matched at my #1 choice for AOA Emergency Medicine: Carilion NRV. I attended 15 EM interviews, most of which were ACGME.

This program was new, but had unbridled potential and most importantly it was close to home which is where I decided I wanted to be. You have to go with your gut, and I am beyond thrilled to have matched at my top choice.

Thanks for sharing! Congrats on your #1!

I know this experience can be a roller coaster. I guess my real question is for people who rank their match list I often hear people saying that they wished they never even put X or Y on their list because that's the one they ended up with. And even though you got your first choice, how did you rank your other choices? Were your last ones not places you really wanted to go to but were "possible" or were they all decent choices?

Sorry for all the questions....

 

[moonwake]

People aren't going to answer this on a public forum.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I don't expect most people to answer but I'm seeing a lot of people posting about their matches- even the ones that sucked so bad they are considering scrambling. Just looking for any two cents on the process or things people wished they had done differently is all.

 

[preDoGuy24]

I don't expect most people to answer but I'm seeing a lot of people posting about their matches even the ones that sucked so bad they are considering scrambling. Just looking for any two cents on the process or things people wished they had done differently is all.

No one is going to be scrambling after matching, that's not possible and is a match violation with serious repercussions (lose your spot, removed from match for a year, every future program knows what you have done when you apply next) I know the thread you are talking about but you should read more into it, especially as a soon to be 1st year these things are important and realizing what a match violation entails is necessary. Residency is not another school application it is a job, if people play immature games like that they will be ruining their career before it starts. I think it's kinda of a break in etiquette/dickish to straight up ask people how far on there list they fell...don't do that on rotations. Especially the day after the match when there are a lot of people upset/scrambling for a spot. DO programs tend to be smaller, revealing stuff online here is effectively making it known to your program as well.

 

[moonwake]

No one is going to be scrambling after matching, that's not possible and is a match violation with serious repercussions (lose your spot, removed from match for a year, every future program knows what you have done when you apply next) I know the thread you are talking about but you should read more into it, especially as a soon to be 1st year these things are important and realizing what a match violation entails is necessary. Residency is not another school application it is a job, if people play immature games like that they will be ruining their career before it starts. I think it's kinda of a break in etiquette/dickish to straight up ask people how far on there list they fell...don't do that on rotations. Especially the day after the match when there are a lot of people upset/scrambling for a spot. DO programs tend to be smaller, revealing stuff online here is effectively making it known to your program as well.

I know scrambling isn't possible. AKA I've read the 10 threads about people asking to scramble each year. What I'm saying is and sorry for not specifying is "for those who want to scramble (who can't scramble)... why did you rank the program the way you did. And I'm asking on a forum- it's an open ended question and no one is obligated. I wouldn't ask someone that in real life just like I'm sure half the people on here wouldn't say the things they say to a person on here. For anyone who is "~comfortable~" I would appreciate their two cents. You just wanted to call me a dick- I see what you did there.

 

[moonwake]

Technically I don't even care where they matched I just want advice on the process and how they ranked things.

 

[Kevin Baker]

Residency is not another school application it is a job, if people play immature games like that they will be ruining their career before it starts. I think it's kinda of a break in etiquette/dickish to straight up ask people how far on there list they fell...don't do that on rotations. Especially the day after the match when there are a lot of people upset/scrambling for a spot. DO programs tend to be smaller, revealing stuff online here is effectively making it known to your program as well.

Hyperbole no? I don't at all find it immature to anonymously post on a medical professional forum how far down the list one went. It's mature and brave imo; helpful for future applicants on a subject matter few talk about. PDs don't have time to play big brother on here matching posts up with residents. We're not that important. And for those that might, that's what anonymous/new accounts are for. I agree on the etiquette on irl asking this close to match day but on here that's fair game.

 

[SLC]

After reading that thread I'm strongly considering taking a program or two off my rank list. But then I saw the AOA match results and that 10% of people in it from my class didn't match (and my class is pretty bad-ass IMO) and I'm worried about what would happen if I did that.

The programs I'm considering abandoning are pretty bad in my opinion. But I gotta imagine that if I have to SOAP, the programs available (if any) aren't likely to be any better, and at least I had interest in applying to these ones in the first place.

Ahh, what to do...

 

[moonwake]

After reading that thread I'm strongly considering taking a program or two off my match list. But then I saw the AOA match results and that 10% of people in it from my class didn't match (and my class is pretty bad-ass IMO) and I'm worried about what would happen if I did that.

The programs I'm considering abandoning are pretty bad in my opinion. But I gotta imagine that if I have to SOAP, the programs available (if any) aren't likely to be any better, and at least I had interest in applying to these ones in the first place.

Ahh, what to do...

Thanks- that's what I'm wondering. I guess it has a lot to do with what you're wanting to go into and how competitive you are when matching into harder-to-get-into specialties. Is family medicine/IM just as hard if you're going for average residencies?

 

[SLC]

Thanks- that's what I'm wondering. I guess it has a lot to do with what you're wanting to go into and how competitive you are when matching into harder-to-get-into specialties. Is family medicine/IM just as hard if you're going for average residencies?

I honestly don't know. I think they are both pretty competitive at the higher end places, or at places in desirable locations. And the very best IM programs are for elite med-students at elite institutions only. But I seriously doubt that even the top of the top end of FM is as competitive as just matching anywhere in say, ENT or Urology.

FM is just that blue-collar of a specialty that there's no real academic allure to it IMO. People don't go into FM hoping to be some high flying Dept. Chair at an Ivy League institution. They mostly go into it to learn to be the best all-round doc they can be for the real world. I got interviews at what I would call top tier places, I have good USMLE scores but nothing special.

IM on the other-hand; it does have some serious academic cachet; people often go into IM thinking/hoping they're the next William Osler. Internal Medicine takes itself very seriously as a discipline, and probably rightfully so since every non-surgical field is a derivative of IM. The very best IM residencies in the ACGME are probably as tough to match to as anything else out there in any other field. As for average residencies, I don't think they are likely anywhere near as competitive as say even average Gen-Surg or ER.

 

[preDoGuy24]

I know scrambling isn't possible. AKA I've read the 10 threads about people asking to scramble each year. What I'm saying is and sorry for not specifying is "for those who want to scramble (who can't scramble)... why did you rank the program the way you did. And I'm asking on a forum- it's an open ended question and no one is obligated. I wouldn't ask someone that in real life just like I'm sure half the people on here wouldn't say the things they say to a person on here. For anyone who is "~comfortable~" I would appreciate their two cents. You just wanted to call me a dick- I see what you did there.

Hyperbole no? I don't at all find it immature to anonymously post on a medical professional forum how far down the list one went. It's mature and brave imo; helpful for future applicants on a subject matter few talk about. PDs don't have time to play big brother on here matching posts up with residents. We're not that important. And for those that might, that's what anonymous/new accounts are for. I agree on the etiquette on irl asking this close to match day but on here that's fair game.

You aren't anonymous on here (once you post where you are a resident at) it's not difficult to derive who someone is from that info alone, people would be surprised what sites PDs cruise, especially reading reviews on there own programs. Probably would be a good idea to have an anonymous account to do this, but ain't nobody got time for that! Maybe I am being a touch hyperbolic but this is the internet and a little hyperbole makes life interesting and keeps these premeds on there toes. If you disagree that reneging on a match contract wouldn't have serious career repercussions by all means let me know.

Now I am not calling YOU a dick, just kind of a dickish question right after the match IMO. What goes into a persons rank list is intensely personal, I think the best way to rank/not rank is the tried but true "would I rather not match then be there?" Some people are finding out they would have rather not matched then be obligated to go, which is a nonideal situation obviously. This process is Extremely subjective like you wouldn't believe, two applicants interviewing on the same day with the same people can both have completely different experiences at a program. I definitely have had offputing experiences at a few programs that are the sole reason I won't rank them.

 

[koan]

Some people are finding out they would have rather not matched then be obligated to go, which is a nonideal situation obviously.

They just have buyer's remorse, and have no idea how much worse they'd feel if they hadn't matched or had to scramble into something even worse. I sympathize with them, because if I match either of my last two programs I will most certainly have an existential crisis. Like @SLC I am debating now whether to even include these programs on my ROL, but weighing an undesirable match versus the uncertain outcome of SOAP... I'm probably not willing to gamble.

 

[preDoGuy24]

They just have buyer's remorse, and have no idea how much worse they'd feel if they hadn't matched or had to scramble into something even worse. I sympathize with them, because if I match either of my last two programs I will most certainly have an existential crisis. Like @SLC I am debating now whether to even include these programs on my ROL, but weighing an undesirable match versus the uncertain outcome of SOAP... I'm probably not willing to gamble.

Definitely agree, I have used the "would rather not match" mantra to this point. Its definitely easier to say that now though, hopefully it works out fine later and I don't end up hating myself.

 

[s5260205]

Since AOA match happens before ACGME, if you matched at AOA, do you have the option to still match in ACGME programs? Or are you bound by contract to take the AOA residency if matched?

 

[Stagg737]

Since AOA match happens before ACGME, if you matched at AOA, do you have the option to still match in ACGME programs? Or are you bound by contract to take the AOA residency if matched?

From what I understand, once you match AOA you have a week to sign your contract. Since the ACGME match is well over a week later, once you match AOA that's pretty much it. So if you know you want to go ACGME, you don't do the AOA match. I'd imagine this is why there are so few DOs that go into the more competitive MD residencies. Imo you'd have to have obscene stats to to be confident enough to apply for something like ortho or derm ACGME without applying AOA as well. Then again someone from my school matched derm at Mayo 2 cycles ago, so it's definitely possible.

 

[hallowmann]

After reading that thread I'm strongly considering taking a program or two off my rank list. But then I saw the AOA match results and that 10% of people in it from my class didn't match (and my class is pretty bad-ass IMO) and I'm worried about what would happen if I did that.

The programs I'm considering abandoning are pretty bad in my opinion. But I gotta imagine that if I have to SOAP, the programs available (if any) aren't likely to be any better, and at least I had interest in applying to these ones in the first place.

Ahh, what to do...

Don't forget, all those non-matches aren't necessarily scrambles.

Since AOA match happens before ACGME, if you matched at AOA, do you have the option to still match in ACGME programs? Or are you bound by contract to take the AOA residency if matched?

You are bound by the AOA match, and automatically are taken out of the NRMP match. It's spelled out pretty clearly here:

"Your matched status will be communicated to the NRMP® by the AOA, and you will not be permitted to submit any rankings for the NRMP® Match for concurrent programs. The NRMP® will automatically withdraw you and/or modify your rankings for the NRMP® Match after the NRMP® Rank Order List deadline, if necessary, to ensure that you do not match to concurrent programs through the NRMP®."

https://www.natmatch.com/aoairp/applwithdraw.html

 

[preDoGuy24]

From what I understand, once you match AOA you have a week to sign your contract. Since the ACGME match is well over a week later, once you match AOA that's pretty much it. So if you know you want to go ACGME, you don't do the AOA match. I'd imagine this is why there are so few DOs that go into the more competitive MD residencies. Imo you'd have to have obscene stats to to be confident enough to apply for something like ortho or derm ACGME without applying AOA as well. Then again someone from my school matched derm at Mayo 2 cycles ago, so it's definitely possible.

Once you match AOA you are removed from the nrmp.

 

[Dr. Zombie]

Better to have matched something ****ty, than to not have matched at all...because THEN you'll wish you had put those ****ty programs on your match list and have somewhere to go this July.

 

[moonwake]

Yeah I guess this leads to a few more questions - do people feel like they really looked through all of their options before they applied? Besides location, what % AOA or ACGME are "low-tier" or just not as attractive? I guess I'm not sure what a "#$&#ty" residency would look like. Anyone care to paint a picture?

 

[DopaDO]

Yeah I guess this leads to a few more questions - do people feel like they really looked through all of their options before they applied? Besides location, what % AOA or ACGME are "low-tier" or just not as attractive? I guess I'm not sure what a "#$&#ty" residency would look like. Anyone care to paint a picture?

In my chosen field (very small field), I have heard from multiple academic faculty (both MD and DO) that almost every AOA residency in my field is really awful. I've heard of DOs who trained at the AOA programs in my field being kicked out of fellowships, not because they didnt work hard or weren't nice people but because they just weren't competent. Even though I was unsure if I would match MD, I recognized that it would have been better to not match than to match at a program that would have made me a subpar physician. That would truly be a nightmare. You only get to train once.

IMO a really bad residency is one with low clinical/surgical volume, malignant attendings, tons of scutwork and little to no didactics/research.

 

[koan]

The main issue I have heard with lower-tier AOA programs is low clinical volume / inadequate pathology as DopaDO noted. The malignant programs with tons of scutwork are often larger programs that are 'workhorse' i.e. the residents are used as cheap labor. I would actually think these features are more consistent with ACGME programs in bigger cities, and even some high-tier residencies. AOA programs tend to be much smaller and not in major tertiary referral centers that see the big bad stuff (transplants, zebras, major trauma). Didactics can vary tremendously between programs, but a total lack of it will mean a higher board failure rate. Ask about pass rate during your interviews.

 

[moonwake]

.

 

[moonwake]

The main issue I have heard with lower-tier AOA programs is low clinical volume / inadequate pathology as DopaDO noted. The malignant programs with tons of scutwork are often larger programs that are 'workhorse' i.e. the residents are used as cheap labor. I would actually think these features are more consistent with ACGME programs in bigger cities, and even some high-tier residencies. AOA programs tend to be much smaller and not in major tertiary referral centers that see the big bad stuff (transplants, zebras, major trauma). Didactics can vary tremendously between programs, but a total lack of it will mean a higher board failure rate. Ask about pass rate during your interviews.

I guess I should look more into residency interview questions/what to look for threads. Thanks!

 

[AnonymousD.O.]

I will. I matched at my #1 choice for AOA Emergency Medicine: Carilion NRV. I attended 15 EM interviews, most of which were ACGME.

This program was new, but had unbridled potential and most importantly it was close to home which is where I decided I wanted to be. You have to go with your gut, and I am beyond thrilled to have matched at my top choice.

.

 

[Stagg737]

Yeah I guess this leads to a few more questions - do people feel like they really looked through all of their options before they applied? Besides location, what % AOA or ACGME are "low-tier" or just not as attractive? I guess I'm not sure what a "#$&#ty" residency would look like. Anyone care to paint a picture?

I'd also say location is a part of it. It may not affect the quality of the residency, but there are certainly programs that get less applicants because they are in a less geographically desirable area. Joplin MO is a good example. They have the 6th or 7th largest patient catheterization volume in the country, but who wants to live in Joplin when they could live somewhere like NYC?

@DopaDO, if you don't mind me asking, what field are you referring to?

 

[moonwake]

I'd also say location is a part of it. It may not affect the quality of the residency, but there are certainly programs that get less applicants because they are in a less geographically desirable area. Joplin MO is a good example. They have the 6th or 7th largest patient catheterization volume in the country, but who wants to live in Joplin when they could live somewhere like NYC?

@DopaDO, if you don't mind me asking, what field are you referring to?

True... I want to live in AZ and that's probably unlikely with any given specialty besides maybe Gen Surg.

 

[chizledfrmstone]

True... I want to live in AZ and that's probably unlikely with any given specialty besides maybe Gen Surg.

Why is that?

 

[moonwake]

Why is that?

I spent the weekend nerding it up and looking up every AOA and ACGME residency in AZ- I was only interested in plastics, gen surg, EM, and radiology. Since there was only 1 ACGME plastics residency in AZ (mayo) and 5 for radiology (0-AOA) and 4 for EM (1-AOA EM in the middle of nowhere AZ)- I don't know but I wouldn't put my money on matching ACGME and I'm relying mostly on AOA since I've heard it's harder to match if you're DO. Gen surg has the 2 AOA programs in phoenix plus 5 gen surg ACGME's. I think I'd have a way higher chance that way. Maybe I'm just being neurotic...

 

[koan]

They will all be acgme by the time you're MS4 anyway, so you should just apply to all of them. Restricting yourself to one state is dangerous though unless you're going for something like IM where a given state may have hundreds of open positions among 20+ programs. If you only apply to 7 gen surg programs because you absolutely have to stay in AZ...I just wouldn't advise that unless your CV is impeccable. It's becoming the norm, for better or worse, to apply to 40+ programs to ensure an adequate # of interviews to match.

 

[moonwake]

They will all be acgme by the time you're MS4 anyway, so you should just apply to all of them. Restricting yourself to one state is dangerous though unless you're going for something like IM where a given state may have hundreds of open positions among 20+ programs. If you only apply to 7 gen surg programs because you absolutely have to stay in AZ...I just wouldn't advise that unless your CV is impeccable. It's becoming the norm, for better or worse, to apply to 40+ programs to ensure an adequate # of interviews to match.

Exactly - it's dangerous. I happened to pick a few additional ones in Nevada, So-Cal, and Texas to keep it in the west because I've heard you need to apply to at least 20 in the match. 40 programs? Holy cow.... what's the average amount of interviews for an "average" applicant? Thanks for the tip too. I'm sure the way things are heading it'll be like 50 or 60 by the time I'm in that game.

 

[Stagg737]

It's already at 50-60 for some people. Our dean said he met with a 4th year that applied to 60 programs and only got 1 or 2 interviews. Granted, this was an average applicant trying to get into a competitive specialty with few unique experiences, but it's still a bit scary. Also, not trying to kill dreams, but realize that if you want to match plastics as a DO you literally have to have more than the complete rockstar package. You have to not only be better than every applicant, but you also have to build some really strong connections. I imagine this probably won't change even with the merger, but if you bust your butt, get the grades/scores, and get a little lucky, anything is possible.

 

[moonwake]

It's already at 50-60 for some people. Our dean said he met with a 4th year that applied to 60 programs and only got 1 or 2 interviews. Granted, this was an average applicant trying to get into a competitive specialty with few unique experiences, but it's still a bit scary. Also, not trying to kill dreams, but realize that if you want to match plastics as a DO you literally have to have more than the complete rockstar package. You have to not only be better than every applicant, but you also have to build some really strong connections. I imagine this probably won't change even with the merger, but if you bust your butt, get the grades/scores, and get a little lucky, anything is possible.

Well alrighty then <scratches plastics off the list> so... gen surg... yeah... does the type of research you do matter? like the subject? Some people are like you need to have a little research under your belt and top 25% or greater on 1 & 2. Is that what you're hearing too? I just don't think I'm that all-star student. I think I won't do poor either. Did you guys have reality checks when it came to how hard it would be to get into a certain specialty and then just come to terms with it and choose something else? Like do you think your academic performance or school limited you with what you wanted to do? (J/W)

 

[koan]

It's already at 50-60 for some people.

As a personal example I applied this year to 73 anesthesia programs and 28 prelim medicine / transitional year internships for a grand total 101 apps distributed by ERAS. Don't ask what the cost was; I don't want to remember. Received 18 anesthesia invites and 2 prelim / TY invites, went on 12 anesthesia interviews and both internship interviews. From talking with others I definitely applied 'more broadly' but it gave me the luxury to turn down offers at a few programs I was less interested in.

NRMP data has shown that USMD applicants have >90% of matching with 10+ contiguous ranks. The data for DO applicants is less clear because we are grouped with IMG who tend to fare less well in the match. So my assumption is that you want to shoot for 10-12 programs on your ROL.

 

[hallowmann]

Well alrighty then <scratches plastics off the list> so... gen surg... yeah... does the type of research you do matter? like the subject? Some people are like you need to have a little research under your belt and top 25% or greater on 1 & 2. Is that what you're hearing too? I just don't think I'm that all-star student. I think I won't do poor either. Did you guys have reality checks when it came to how hard it would be to get into a certain specialty and then just come to terms with it and choose something else? Like do you think your academic performance or school limited you with what you wanted to do? (J/W)

Stop thinking about this right now. You haven't even started med school and you're crossing things off your list based on not thinking you'll be competitive for them.

Start med school. Try your best to really learn the material to the depth that you need it. Once you can stably do that, work on adding things like research (really in anything, but if you strongly feel you'll want one thing, go for research in that field) and leadership. Don't start eliminating things until you at least take Step 1. Until then, your focus is on learning the material to the best of your ability, and doing well on Step 1.

 

[moonwake]

Stop thinking about this right now. You haven't even started med school and you're crossing things off your list based on not thinking you'll be competitive for them.

Start med school. Try your best to really learn the material to the depth that you need it. Once you can stably do that, work on adding things like research (really in anything, but if you strongly feel you'll want one thing, go for research in that field) and leadership. Don't start eliminating things until you at least take Step 1. Until then, your focus is on learning the material to the best of your ability, and doing well on Step 1.

EDITED: Sorry- It's just I'm trying to get an idea of where I should go for rotations (since some areas will have better opportunities for different specialties than others). Technically we cast the mock vote in less than a year. I don't think my opinions will change a ton on what I want to do until I start 3rd year anyway but by then you are where you are for rotations. I feel like you have to try and get a feel for what you want to do/where you want to go at least a little bit - even if you change your mind. Or not?

 

[moonwake]

As a personal example I applied this year to 73 anesthesia programs and 28 prelim medicine / transitional year internships for a grand total 101 apps distributed by ERAS. Don't ask what the cost was; I don't want to remember. Received 18 anesthesia invites and 2 prelim / TY invites, went on 12 anesthesia interviews and both internship interviews. From talking with others I definitely applied 'more broadly' but it gave me the luxury to turn down offers at a few programs I was less interested in.

NRMP data has shown that USMD applicants have >90% of matching with 10+ contiguous ranks. The data for DO applicants is less clear because we are grouped with IMG who tend to fare less well in the match. So my assumption is that you want to shoot for 10-12 programs on your ROL.

You're awesome and congrats on all the interviews

 

[SLC]

Well alrighty then <scratches plastics off the list> so... gen surg... yeah... does the type of research you do matter? like the subject? Some people are like you need to have a little research under your belt and top 25% or greater on 1 & 2. Is that what you're hearing too? I just don't think I'm that all-star student. I think I won't do poor either. Did you guys have reality checks when it came to how hard it would be to get into a certain specialty and then just come to terms with it and choose something else? Like do you think your academic performance or school limited you with what you wanted to do? (J/W)

To my knowledge the plastics program at Mayo AZ (if that's what you were looking at) is a fellowship after a Gen-Surg residency. Getting in that way would likely be infinitely easier than matching into an integrated plastics residency.

Most Plastics programs are fellowships, few are residencies entered directly after medical school.

 

[moonwake]

To my knowledge the plastics program at Mayo AZ (if that's what you were looking at) is a fellowship after a Gen-Surg residency. Getting in that way would likely be infinitely easier than matching into an integrated plastics residency.

Most Plastics programs are fellowships, few are residencies entered directly after medical school.

Thanks for the heads up - I think I saw that but it just slipped my mind. Good to know that most aren't integrated programs- I didn't know that and that makes me feel A LOT better. With the way things are, AOA grads can't apply to ACGME fellowships right? (AOA gen surg --> ACGME cardiothoracic surgeon fellowship [unless they have AOA fellowships]).What really makes me nervous and I really think it's a valid fear before starting school- is planning on going to a certain AOA residency (since you plan your rotations around residencies you really want to go to usually) and then it doesn't get accredited by ACGME. I'm assuming virtually none of them will have that happen but not having that assurance sucks majorly. Since I technically would start rotations in 2017, a lot of schools still might not be dual accredited. And for the record- the reason why I really want to stay in AZ (around AZ) is I have 3 kids and we're trying to stay close to family with my wife working.

 

[SLC]

Not true.

Integrated plastics - 65 programs, 136 slots
Traditional fellowships - 43 programs, 76 slots

And more traditional programs dropping this year, meaning that every year it gets harder to snag a plastics slot (match rate: 76% last year for traditional fellowship)

(sources: charting outcomes in the Match, SDN)

Hmm, is this a figure that's been true for a while? Because I've never met a plastic surgeon who did an integrated residency, and I've done a number of rotations in plastics. The surgeons I've interacted with seemed to imply that most plastic surgeons go into it through the fellowship route.

 

[SLC]

Thanks for the heads up - I think I saw that but it just slipped my mind. Good to know that most aren't integrated programs- I didn't know that and that makes me feel A LOT better. With the way things are, AOA grads can't apply to ACGME fellowships right? (AOA gen surg --> ACGME cardiothoracic surgeon fellowship [unless they have AOA fellowships]).What really makes me nervous and I really think it's a valid fear before starting school- is planning on going to a certain AOA residency (since you plan your rotations around residencies you really want to go to usually) and then it doesn't get accredited by ACGME. I'm assuming virtually none of them will have that happen but not having that assurance sucks majorly. Since I technically would start rotations in 2017, a lot of schools still might not be dual accredited. And for the record- the reason why I really want to stay in AZ (around AZ) is I have 3 kids and we're trying to stay close to family with my wife working.

Well keep in mind that by the time you apply for residency there will not be any AOA residencies. So the AOA residency to ACGME fellowship hangup won't be an issue. But I can't speak to what the landscape will look like for DO's matching into Gen-Surg residencies that have the potential for making a plastics fellowship a realistic option. Right now I'm told by my preceptors (I did two plastics rotations and I'm on Palliative Medicine with a former plastic surgeon right now) that even a plastics fellowship in the ACGME is pretty much not an option for DO's. You could do Gen-Surg at Hopkins and you'd still be up against nearly impossible odds from what I gather.

 

[moonwake]

Well keep in mind that by the time you apply for residency there will not be any AOA residencies. So the AOA residency to ACGME fellowship hangup won't be an issue. But I can't speak to what the landscape will look like for DO's matching into Gen-Surg residencies that have the potential for making a plastics fellowship a realistic option. Right now I'm told by my preceptors (I did two plastics rotations and I'm on Palliative Medicine with a former plastic surgeon right now) that even a plastics fellowship in the ACGME is pretty much not an option for DO's. You could do Gen-Surg at Hopkins and you'd still be up against nearly impossible odds from what I gather.

I'm accepting my fate. It's okay though because I shadowed a surgeon over a summer and did surgery research and I'm pretty confident gen surg is where I will be most happy. Plastics is just sort of cool in and of itself - are other fellowships for gen surg as hard to attain as plastics? or are they all pretty much impossible to attain? I just want to know what options DO- Gen surgs have.

It's been greater than 50% integrated for a decade at least and trending up

Thanks for solid numbers. Either way I don't think plastics will work out for me but thanks a ton for the info!

 

[Stagg737]

I wouldn't rule plastics out totally if you really want it, but don't count on it either. Any fellowship will be somewhat competitive to get into, but I would think plastics would be one of the more difficult ones.

Also, even if the merger isn't totally finished, I would think AOA residencies that didn't meet standards would get a probationary period before being eliminated, but who knows. Either way, matching ACGME gen surg as a DO isn't as difficult as you'd think. We have dozens of gen surg matches every year, and many of them go ACGME.

 

[AnonymousD.O.]

As a personal example I applied this year to 73 anesthesia programs and 28 prelim medicine / transitional year internships for a grand total 101 apps distributed by ERAS. Don't ask what the cost was; I don't want to remember. Received 18 anesthesia invites and 2 prelim / TY invites, went on 12 anesthesia interviews and both internship interviews. From talking with others I definitely applied 'more broadly' but it gave me the luxury to turn down offers at a few programs I was less interested in.

NRMP data has shown that USMD applicants have >90% of matching with 10+ contiguous ranks. The data for DO applicants is less clear because we are grouped with IMG who tend to fare less well in the match. So my assumption is that you want to shoot for 10-12 programs on your ROL.

When I read how many applications you sent out, I threw up in my mouth a little. Not looking forward to that ERAS journey

 

[hallowmann]

EDITED: Sorry- It's just I'm trying to get an idea of where I should go for rotations (since some areas will have better opportunities for different specialties than others). Technically we cast the mock vote in less than a year. I don't think my opinions will change a ton on what I want to do until I start 3rd year anyway but by then you are where you are for rotations. I feel like you have to try and get a feel for what you want to do/where you want to go at least a little bit - even if you change your mind. Or not?

You're talking about where you're going for cores right? 4th year electives can usually be done almost anywhere, so unless you don't want to move around at all, I wouldn't limit yourself to residency programs only in the area you do rotations. Definitely don't limit yourself to where you do elective rotations, unless you love the area or something. When it comes to AOA and some specialties, it's important to do auditions, but if you are going to be applying broadly ACGME, that's not add huge of a deal.

Don't limit yourself right now. You're not confined to one region or one specialty no matter where you do your core rotations, and you really don't know how things will change in 2-3 years. If I were you, I'd pick the region in which you'd like to live during rotations, and more importantly the rotation site that will give you the best clinical education experience and preferably has the most number of in-house residencies.

 

[moonwake]

You're talking about where you're going for cores right? 4th year electives can usually be done almost anywhere, so unless you don't want to move around at all, I wouldn't limit yourself to residency programs only in the area you do rotations. Definitely don't limit yourself to where you do elective rotations, unless you love the area or something. When it comes to AOA and some specialties, it's important to do auditions, but if you are going to be applying broadly ACGME, that's not add huge of a deal.

Don't limit yourself right now. You're not confined to one region or one specialty no matter where you do your core rotations, and you really don't know how things will change in 2-3 years. If I were you, I'd pick the region in which you'd like to live during rotations, and more importantly the rotation site that will give you the best clinical education experience and preferably has the most number of in-house residencies.

Well that's my problem. I feel like I put more emphasis on the location than the quality of my residency- assuming the best residencies are not in Arizona. I wish I could just pack up and go to all the best areas but I'm just saying I'm already limited because of my own personal reasons (wanting to stay near Arizona). But just out of curiosity. Is it normal to do 3 audition rotations for the same specialty (i.e gen surg) for 4th year? Just wondering if there's a limit or if you're completely free to choose what to do. Just trying to get my foot in the door everywhere.

 

[hallowmann]

Well that's my problem. I feel like I put more emphasis on the location than the quality of my residency- assuming the best residencies are not in Arizona. I wish I could just pack up and go to all the best areas but I'm just saying I'm already limited because of my own personal reasons (wanting to stay near Arizona). But just out of curiosity. Is it normal to do 3 audition rotations for the same specialty (i.e gen surg) for 4th year? Just wondering if there's a limit or if you're completely free to choose what to do. Just trying to get my foot in the door everywhere.

It varies by school, but depending on the field you can do as many as you have time for. I know people in my school that did 7 EM rotations (2 cores and 5 auditions) in 4th year. Most people usually do 3-5 auditions. It's hard to do more than that, but it really varies by residency. A lot of people I know that matched ACGME didn't do auditions. AOA programs prefer auditions though.

 

[BrooklynBulls]

Well that's my problem. I feel like I put more emphasis on the location than the quality of my residency- assuming the best residencies are not in Arizona. I wish I could just pack up and go to all the best areas but I'm just saying I'm already limited because of my own personal reasons (wanting to stay near Arizona). But just out of curiosity. Is it normal to do 3 audition rotations for the same specialty (i.e gen surg) for 4th year? Just wondering if there's a limit or if you're completely free to choose what to do. Just trying to get my foot in the door everywhere.

You might want to end up in Arizona, but apply all over. It's a mistake you can't undo to not apply to enough residency programs and not get enough interviews. Between overspending on applications or not sending enough, it's best to overspend. I way overshot by applying to 80 radiology programs. I don't regret it. Not only did it allow me to attend only the ones I felt were the best, but it gave me a good gauge of my competitiveness. Then, with an abundance of interviews, still attend enough that you can be reasonably sure to match (for me, that number was 15. Your number may vary, but I recommend no lower than 10 and no higher than 20). Then rank the ones in or near Arizona at the top.

Also, with AOA rotations, 2 week rotations can be done. I know people that have rotated at 10 places for orthopedic surgery in their elective time. Not only does this get your foot in the door, but come interview season, they can EASILY differentiate the good programs from the bad.

 

[moonwake]

You might want to end up in Arizona, but apply all over. It's a mistake you can't undo to not apply to enough residency programs and not get enough interviews. Between overspending on applications or not sending enough, it's best to overspend. I way overshot by applying to 80 radiology programs. I don't regret it. Not only did it allow me to attend only the ones I felt were the best, but it gave me a good gauge of my competitiveness. Then, with an abundance of interviews, still attend enough that you can be reasonably sure to match (for me, that number was 15. Your number may vary, but I recommend no lower than 10 and no higher than 20). Then rank the ones in or near Arizona at the top.

Also, with AOA rotations, 2 week rotations can be done. I know people that have rotated at 10 places for orthopedic surgery in their elective time. Not only does this get your foot in the door, but come interview season, they can EASILY differentiate the good programs from the bad.

Awesome - thanks for the tip. Yeah I was really grateful I got interviews at schools that I didn't want to go to first (for applying to medical school) and the first one I botched totally. By the time I got to the schools I wanted to go to I had 2 under my belt and it made a huge difference. You're helping me realize that having more interviews for residency will be similar- more practice for the interviews that count.