Which clinical rotation is the worst?

[OrnotMajestic]

Seriously, is that all?

We all apologize for not having it nearly hard enough for your expectations. From what I've read in this thread, it sounds like you are the end-all, be-all purveyor of all that is 3rd/4th year. And no one else has had it rougher. While I'm sure you can impose upon us grandiose stories of your exploits during 60 hour shifts while you juggled 23 critical ill patients with nary an attending in sight, but seriously, spare me. I don't think I can handle the guilt.

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[abefromann]

Of course it depends on the school, but surgery was by FAR the most work and longest hours. Terrible senior residency (mean) and the other student i was on with didn't really speak english too well and milked it (which other people have confirmed from other rotations with him). Basically I did like 70 percent of the scut.

 

[PreMedAdAG]

So I thought I would repost after a few more weeks in ob/gyn - and here's my latest update

the OB part - is way better - I had a great experience delivering babies and they truly were teacing me how to be an intern - which I appreciated...

here's the kicker though and why I think this speciality is crazzzzy...

I was on call with a 76 yo doc..... UM I"M SORRY THAT IS SOOOO VERY WRONG!!! If I am laying in a call bed when I'm 76 - just frieking put a gun to my head!

 

[Brickhouse]

Of course it depends on the school, but surgery was by FAR the most work and longest hours. Terrible senior residency (mean) and the other student i was on with didn't really speak english too well and milked it (which other people have confirmed from other rotations with him). Basically I did like 70 percent of the scut.

Love your screen name....can't remember exactly though, was that the sausage king of chicago?

 

[THP]

here's the kicker though and why I think this speciality is crazzzzy...

I was on call with a 76 yo doc..... UM I"M SORRY THAT IS SOOOO VERY WRONG!!! If I am laying in a call bed when I'm 76 - just frieking put a gun to my head!

To me this says that the guy really loves his job and a further testament to how cool OB is. Why else would he be doing it when he is 76 yo? I guarantee you its not because he is barely getting by and needs to put food on the table or pay off his student loans. I'm sure he could easily retire if he wanted.

 

[funkless]

To me this says that the guy really loves his job and a further testament to how cool OB is. Why else would he be doing it when he is 76 yo?

Tertiary syphilis.

 

[Ypo.]

I'd like to hear if anyone actually LIKED OB? Despite a horrible clerkship experience, what makes it redeemable? Does it bother you that these residents are mean, catty, miserable, obviously working more than 80 hrs/week, and appear to be hating life? If you had a good experience, what do you think about the fact that it has such a bad reputation and so many people have bad experiences.

I just wonder how this field attracts people. Even the surgeons appeared to be happy with their job and they are also working 80+ hrs/wk. I'd never seen anything like this.

The other thing that is irritating is when some of us have a horrible exprience and then some others thought it wasn't bad at all. What is different about us? Did they treat us differently or are we responding differently?

Me! Although I can say for sure, if I had this rotation first or second, my experience would be completely opposite.

My first day on OB rotation; get yelled at by a nurse (in front of the patient) for trying to do H &P before she sees the patient, then I get yelled at by the anesthesiologist (in front of the patient) for not getting out of his way when he was trying to do his H & P (after I had waited a half hour for the nurse to finish hers). The patient noticed and even told me "wow; why do they have to be so mean to you guys? It's just like those shows on TV."

Let me tell you it felt pretty crappy to be treated like that, but after going through IM and Peds and Family, my skin has grown a little thicker. You need to learn to not take things personally, and keep smiling. You know how I handled the situation? I went out, introduced myself to the nurse, and apologized if I got in her way. She then smiled and explained that the nurses see the patients first (need to enter data in the EMR, plus they ask a lot of info that we will need to complete our H&P). The anesthesiologist I just ignore now, but I learned that you have to let them do their thing first.

We also had a week of lectures/orientation before we set foot on the floor where we were warned by residents/attendings that the nurses are very protective of their patients, and given tips on how to survive. In addition, there are many residents and attendings who love OB and go out of their way to get us involved. In my first week, I've scrubbed in on 6 C-sections (one of them emergent) and been allowed to help deliver babies. There is a fourth year resident who always teaches, and offers to tutor us for free.

In particular, one experience I would recommend that all OB/Gyn clerkships set up, is that we had to shadow a nurse for a 12 hr shift our first day on the floor. This was good because it taught us what the nurses do, plus the nurses taught me cervix checks and a ton of useful information. I worked with two nurses, one of them who had worked for 30 years in the same program, the other who had worked in an Amish community with midwives, and they shared their experiences with me.

I doubt that my OB experience is much different than anyone else's, except that we do NOT have outright mean residents and in contrast we have had attendings/residents go out of their way to involve us. Otherwise, we still have the bitchy nurses (most are actually quite nice and willing to teach you as long as you introduce yourself, and not just barge in).

So I think our orientation was set up for success, instead of failure. Still, you have to be prepared to be the low man on the totem and you MUST be nice to the nurses. Also, the residents are busy; the first few days you may just be frustrated, (like I was) and just try and do what you can, before your role is clearly defined. But I may add that every rotation has been like that for me so far, it's just that I've gotten better at figuring out how to deal and still learn. What really helped is reading this; "The OB/Gyn clerkship guide to success" http://apgo.org/binary/Clerkship%20Primer Online Version.pdf

 

[abefromann]

Love your screen name....can't remember exactly though, was that the sausage king of chicago?

Exactly Thank you

 

[persia]

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[Learfan]

I would like to take this opportunity to comment on my OB/GYN rotation but so many others have already done a fine job. Take it as a given that I am in complete agreement with the other members of the SDN community mentioned below. Quotes taken from this thread with attribution are posted below. Please note the poll results. OB/GYN leads as the single worst rotation by a two to one margin over the next worst rotation (surgery).

My experience on OB/GYN was horrible. The more senior female residents behaved like catty back stabbing PMSing little bitches who never missed an opportunity to talk trash about other residents, attendings or med students while the junior female residents were just utterly miserable 24/7. The male residents were either rude obnoxious tyrants or so feminized they sickened me. Teaching was all but non-existent. With a single exception, the attendings were all people with exceptionally serious psych issues who constantly degraded the residents and med students further contributing to the very negative atmosphere that permeated every aspect of the department. One of the senior attendings admitted to the students that the OB/GYN department was universally held in very poor regard and could no longer attract residency applicants with good credentials. An investigation of this statement using an ACOG database demonstrated that the attending was being truthful with the students. This individual had all but given up on the process of creating any positive change. I am very glad to have the experience behind me. Needless to say, I would never consider OB/GYN as a career specialty and would strongly recommend that other students avoid it as well.

With thanks to my fellow students who have helped me to express my loathing and contempt for OB/GYN.

funkless

OB-GYN is so God-awful that I can't imagine why anyone would choose the field. The hours suck, the work is nasty, the social pathos is utterly demoralizing, and everyone you work with is some shade of crazy/loathsome/creepy.

As for the female residents at my home program, I've never seen a higher concentration of ill-mannered, histrionic, anal-retentive bitches in my entire life--only one or two out of the whole bunch that aren't complete sociopaths. As for the guys, half of them are alright. The other half totally give me the creeps.

Well, if it's any indicator, our interns are uniformly nuts, and it's only August 4th...
It seems that insecurity fuels the fire of their Axis II issues. They don't seem to be very knowledgable, which explains why they can't teach for $hit, why they can't tolerate any subordinates deviating from their personal modi operandi, and why they can't let pass any opportunity to scold or talk down to a subordinate. The same goes for the OB nurses (esp. the scrub nurses), who constantly (and futilely) attempt to pull rank over the students.

OB-GYNs deserve their miserable lifestyle.

Getunconcious

I agree. I think that a GOOD experience in OB is the exception rather than the rule. Thus if the profession is going to be stereotyped, I think "malignant psychotic skanks on their periods" suits the specialty perfectly.

I know people may be pissed off at the stereotyping of OB/Gyn, but if the shoe fits...

But seriously, what makes it so unpleasant isn't the work so much as it is the personalities...ugh.

Yeah I don't know what's up with the angry OBgyn docs....Some of them were really nice but as you said they are totally outnumbered by the mean ones! I'm hoping surgery won't be this bad. OB/Gyn just seems to attract a real different breed of cat. And wtf is up with all this gossiping that they do? OMG I've never seen such mind games on any other rotations. From what I understand, at least the surgeons let you KNOW what they think! Ugh I can't say enough about how ridiculous this rotation is. I am so glad I got it out of the way first!

goodies

ob is full of catty, MOODY women (at least at my school) who may be nice one second and a real b*tch the next. ive never come across women so freakin catty. the women attendings are also just as moody and they have to talk in their deep voices to make themselves feel powerful... or to make up for the fact that they are not men.

ChildNeuro

My experience in Ob/Gyn made me lose faith in ability of human beings to be kind to each other. Ob/Gyn is a very dehumanizing experience.

Top Gun

You know, the sad part is, when I did my OB/Gyn rotation, I actually thought the subject matter itself was pretty interesting and the procedures were pretty cool. Unfortunately, the bitchy residents and as$hole attendings completely ruined it for me.

A lot of people have posted negative experiences in OB/Gyn. So it is very difficult to believe that all of them were at fault, and thus deserved to have a bad experience. When you see a poll that shows a large percentage of students listing OB/Gyn as their worst clinical rotation, it can't be that all of the students are incompetent or lazy. Something must be going on that is common in OB/Gyn roations.

haveaniceday

I am on ob/gyn right now, almost done. I always had it ranked highly as one I thought about going into, as I have some prior experience in it.

It is now on the very bottom of the list...for all the reasons listed in this thread. It attracts a certain type of person (a type I don't want to be), and if you are not it than it is best to just get the rotation over with and move on.

Worst rotation of my 3rd year.

The gossiping is the worst! Don't get me wrong, I do enjoy my fair share of gossip. But not in the workplace, espeically when the ones doing most of the gossiping are the doctors. They have very little concept of who is around and hearing them. Some of it is lighthearted but it also got pretty mean sometimes and was angled towards: their fellow residents, attendings, chair of the department, incoming residents, nurses, crnas, husbands, residents in other programs, I could go on. I can only imagine what was said about med students when we left the room.

It wasn't the stressful situations, it wasn't the long hours, it wasn't the extreme messiness that is ob/gyn, nor the demanding patients...the worst part of the whole experience is the culture. I feel like I just finished a rotation through the sorority house. One attending was actually braiding another attendings hair in clinic one day.

gbwillner

Just thought I would chime in here since I finished OB/GYN yesterday and take the shelf tomorrow. Having taken all my cores now except for Psych, I can definitely say without a doubt that OB/GYN is the worst rotation with the worst residents with the worst atmosphere. A majority of the residents are apathetic towards medical students. For every great resident that's willing to spend time with you teaching, there are 3 who talk crap about anyone as soon as they leave the door, are disrespectful to the nursing staff, and mistreat the medical students.

I had a particular rough go of it with a few residents who for some reason started spreading false rumors about me, which eventually got reported to attendings, and now I'm in the position where I have to defend myself to the clerkship coordinator. Not to mention that I didn't find out about it until an attending approached me two days before the exam. I would have preferred to be shoved out of the way for a shoulder dystocia.

OB/GYN is so bad I would rather repeat 6 months of surgery than do another week in L&D.

The1doc

Most of the attendings were overworked, tired, malignant individuals who just really needed some sleep....sleep that they'd been missing for the past few decades. Most of the residents fit into one of three categories:

1. Wannabe surgeons without the scores to get the residency of choice
2. Sicko vagina enthusiasts
3. Females who knew that they had a job lined up by virtue of A) being a medical student about to finish school and B) being female, with emphasis on the latter.

Of course, there aren't enough HONEST OB/Gyn residents or wannabe residents out there to admit that they fit into one of the three aforementioned categories. But I speak the truth...and you know it...look deep into your soul and be honest with yourself for once. Then, if you feel it necessary, after you have at least been honest with yourself, log onto SDN and talk about why you truly are passionate about caring for the VaGi-Gis of the world. Tell us about why you think the horrible hours, sleep deprivation, bitchy women, and regular baths in blood/meconium/amniotic fluid is worth it. Tell us why you want to work in a profession surrounded by the most unfriendly, unprofessional colleagues...why you have ignored the advice of countless OBGyn attendings who told you "DON'T GO INTO OBGYN." I'm sure you all have really good reasons....and I've listed them in 1-3 above. And by the looks of it, the fact that the vast majority of OBGyn residents are now female indicates that #3 is a bid draw.

That about sums up my opinion on OBGyn.

my surgery rotation was intense...medicine was intense...but nothing was as painful as ob/gyn. obgyn was PAINFULLY painful...the catty attitude among attendings and residents is pervasive. too much estrogen...even the male attendings seemed to be affected.

that old saying, "you make your bed" seems to have gone over their heads...the job is stressful and messy, but it's not the only specialty that is that way. yet it was by far the most malignant atmosphere i've ever been in, and they continue to perpetuate their problems by advocating this type of behavior in their residents.

Medstudentquest

Don't worry, everyone I have talked to has hated OB. 90% of residents are catty, crazy, and evil. Many of the attendings, not all, are the same. Just be happy that it lasts only 6 weeks, at least at my school, and that OB is one of the worst rotations for most people. Hang in there, and don't quit!

drewbie

Ob/Gyn was by far the worst experience of my school career. The people, hours, and work are all miserable.

persia

The OB course director at my school is a known bully and all around abusive personality. He has people crying in the bathroom, residents as well as students. Known reputation for writing devastating evals for students AND residents.

So, no wonder the residents are always freaking out and scared and take it out on the students. This guy should get some of the abuse he dishes out, instead most people just try and stay away and avoid him at all costs. S*** runs downhill.

I went in with a great attitude, I knew it would be hard and a real struggle but I wanted to learn and do well. OB, I was devastated at how insultingly I was treated. It was emotionally a horrible, horrible experience and I started to really think about dropping out of medicine. I think for me, it was the public humiliation by residents, nurses and some attendings.

bones4u

Mine was ob/gyn too - catty residents and attendings - everyone was impossible to get along with. plus the residents were in their own cat fight and took their aggression out on the students.

as a whole though i saw how empty the profession is. everyone is miserable. i also realized that obstetrics isn't even really a science, but more an algorithm to follow so you don't get sued. its pathetic.

its the hardest rotation at our school as well, with a horrible department, and just plain rude people. for the life of me i still don't understand why any of my classmates are going into this field?

To whoever is going into it - please make something of your field. your services are definitely needed, but just don't be a b*tch about it. and if you are upset because your life sucks, don't take it out on everyone else.

Tired

Would someone do a quick statistical significance calculation on these results? I'm sick of this "Everyone has a different experience" crap, or the ******ed "You didn't work hard enough" comments.

Ob-gyn blows. The unpleasant personalities dominate the service. There is minimal control over resident misbehavior by the attending staff. Obviously this was not just my experience as a student, as this thread and many others demonstrate.

I wish Ob would come to terms with who they are. If they were a bunch of rude and unpleasant people who admitted it (ie - General Surgery residents), then at least I could respect them even if I didn't like them. But this constant insistence that they are caring, pleasant people, despite mountains of evidence to the contrary, makes them just look foolish.

Alteran

So the moral of the story is that while OB/Gyn is a hot bed of malignant individuals, its not the only field that attracts them. In general, academia tends to attract some of the most emotionally damaged individuals just because they don't have to "get along" with anyone to do their jobs and for that reason can't earn a living in the private sector.

 

[smq123]

The same goes for the OB nurses (esp. the scrub nurses), who constantly (and futilely) attempt to pull rank over the students.

Riiiight. Because the gen surg nurses (esp. the circulating nurses) were SO nice to students! They were SO FREAKING NICE that a day never went by when I didn't want to smack some of them in the back of the head! No, no, no, no, the gen surg scrub and circs were all SWEET as fu**ing PIE!

Yeah, the ancillary staff in the OR could kind of be a problem....

Most of the residents fit into one of three categories:

1. Wannabe surgeons without the scores to get the residency of choice
2. Sicko vagina enthusiasts
3. Females who knew that they had a job lined up by virtue of A) being a medical student about to finish school and B) being female, with emphasis on the latter.

Of course, there aren't enough HONEST OB/Gyn residents or wannabe residents out there to admit that they fit into one of the three aforementioned categories. But I speak the truth...and you know it...look deep into your soul and be honest with yourself for once. Then, if you feel it necessary, after you have at least been honest with yourself, log onto SDN and talk about why you truly are passionate about caring for the VaGi-Gis of the world. Tell us about why you think the horrible hours, sleep deprivation, bitchy women, and regular baths in blood/meconium/amniotic fluid is worth it. Tell us why you want to work in a profession surrounded by the most unfriendly, unprofessional colleagues...why you have ignored the advice of countless OBGyn attendings who told you "DON'T GO INTO OBGYN." I'm sure you all have really good reasons....and I've listed them in 1-3 above. And by the looks of it, the fact that the vast majority of OBGyn residents are now female indicates that #3 is a bid draw.

I wish Ob would come to terms with who they are. If they were a bunch of rude and unpleasant people who admitted it (ie - General Surgery residents), then at least I could respect them even if I didn't like them. But this constant insistence that they are caring, pleasant people, despite mountains of evidence to the contrary, makes them just look foolish.

Well, I guess I could give it a shot (in reverse order)...

3) Actually, I'm not so convinced that I WILL match in ob/gyn if I wanted to. Like gen surg, ob/gyn is experiencing an upward trend in the number of people who are applying.

You're right in that, if I absolutely didn't care where I did residency, I could easily match into a crappy little ob/gyn residency somewhere out in the backwoods of Maine. But I'd like to go somewhere that offers a decent chance at a fellowship, and that will involve a lot more work and effort. OB/gyn residents who can get into pretty good programs also have the credentials to get into pretty good general surgery programs as well.

2) I'm (oddly) not that into the vagina. Operating on it didn't strike me as interesting - the anatomy is so straight forward that any procedure is a little boring. (Which is also why I didn't really like plastics, either.) Urogyn was a little too much like plastics - cut, re-approximate, suture. Repeat.

1) As mentioned before, if you want to do ob/gyn at a decent place, then you need to have pretty good scores and grades. The same scores that can get you into a good ob/gyn residency are also enough to get you into a good gen surg residency.

So why do I like it? (Well, first, I should be honest and say that I go back and forth between gen surg and ob/gyn.)

* I think that you get better long-term followup in ob/gyn - which is something that a lot of general surgeons will openly admit. Even in specialties like surg onc, once the tumor is removed, then the patient is sent to a rad onc or heme/onc specialist, and your role in the patient's care is largely done.

* OB/gyn offers more flexibility in practice options. If you want to do only office gyn, then you can do that. If you wanted to focus on OB, you can do that. If you wanted to focus more on inpatient gyn, then you can do that. I don't mind clinic (I know that most general surgeons hate clinic), so that appealed to me.

* General surgery, to be honest, has not necessarily done a great job of defending its "turf." A lot of things that were traditionally done by surgeons are now done by other people - namely, GI, cards, and CVIR. Neurosurg and ortho take the really interesting traumas, leaving trauma surg with ischemic bowels, stat appys/choles, and ex laps.

* I like delivering babies. And looking at an OB/gyn's "bread and butter" (c-sections, SVDs, hysterectomies, oopherectomies), I found those more appealing than gen surg's "bread and butter" (lap chole, lap appy, ex lap, herniorrhaphy).

There are some things about surgery that I like better than OB/gyn, but the reasons that I've mentioned above are why I am still very interested in ob/gyn.

Tell us why you want to work in a profession surrounded by the most unfriendly, unprofessional colleagues...

I wish Ob would come to terms with who they are. If they were a bunch of rude and unpleasant people who admitted it (ie - General Surgery residents), then at least I could respect them even if I didn't like them. But this constant insistence that they are caring, pleasant people, despite mountains of evidence to the contrary, makes them just look foolish.

Well, unfriendly, unprofessional colleagues exist everywhere. I'm sure that you met quite a few pediatricians who were (surprisingly) nasty and malicious with med students - I know that I have. An ENT PA at the hospital likes to enjoy talking to med students like we're 5 year old children - a situation that always makes the intern roll his eyes. One of the gen surg interns practically drooled at the idea of having medical students to boss around. (He made no attempt to hide the hope of having his own scut monkey to abuse.)

And I've heard so many IM generalists and specialists say that they're all really nice and laid back (unlike the general surgeons), and that they're dedicated to teaching (unlike those mean old surgeons). I actually have found, though, that some of them can't teach for sh//, and I've done more scut work on IM rotations (scut work = fetching food, fetching coffee, finding a fax machine) than I ever did on surgery. So OB/gyns aren't the only ones who delude themselves.

 

[Alteran]

While I agree with the universal sentiment that OB/Gyn really sucks, and it does, my worst rotation was IM because of an absolutely terrible attending I was stuck with for a month. But that's no surprise given the IM program at my institution. Attracting high quality people to this department is like getting high society individuals to eat out of a dumpster. All but two of the faculty were trained in the US, and those trained in the US aren't that much better than the FMGs. One attending has the academic equivalent of a restraining order on him for students because he is just that malignant an individual, another attending was booted from chairmanship solely because of his personality, another attending tells students are doing great to their face and then trashes them on evals, and half of the other attendings are totally clueless.

But the attending I was stuck with for a month took the cake and left but the smallest of crumbs. This emotionally damaged, histrionic, labile, and utterly useless individual takes absolute delight in degrading and diminishing students. She would interrupt me half way through my H&P of a new patient to ask me some random crap, want an answer then & there, then yell at me in front of everyone for skipping over information. She would have deliberately amorphous expectations of me, and then take putative action against me when those "expectations" were not met. Her only redeeming quality was her ability to humidify the air.

So the moral of the story is that while OB/Gyn is a hot bed of malignant individuals, its not the only field that attracts them. In general, academia tends to attract some of the most emotionally damaged individuals just because they don't have to "get along" with anyone to do their jobs and for that reason can't earn a living in the private sector.

 

[vtucci]

Wow. I am amazed about the OB/GYN venom on this board. I thought surgery would take the prize hands-down due to the universally horrible schedule for most students' rotation. You always hear the urban legends of surgeons doing absolutely horrible things to their students.

I understand the comments about moody, bitchy residents. These creatures do not just exist in the Ob/Gyn clerkship but can be founds anywhere residents are sleep-deprived regardless of gender. Granted, the higher proportion of women in Ob/Gyn can taint the culture just as the high proportion of men in surgery can do the same in that field.

Fortunately, I was warned about Ob and how most students think it is horrible. I was told that the residents were not to be trusted that they would stab you in the back while smiling sweetly.

As a result, I was expecting the absolute worst. I was so pleasantly surprised by my team. I had the best interns and 3rd year residents. It was a pleasure to work with them as a group. Hours were tough and there was not a huge variety of conditions but I actually enjoyed the rotation and was impressed with the fund of knowledge of my residents. Because of the more limited medical conditions addressed on a daily basis by OB/GYNs (not to mention the malpractice issues), I will not go into this field but I wish everyone interested in it best wishes.

 

[vtucci]

Incidentally, I am doing my surgery rotation now and have a great team. If I was inclined to do surgery, this team would have sealed the deal for me- the fellows are hilarious and real people, not the typical arrogant stereotypes. (I just get ancy and need to deal with multiple things simultaneously-- that and I love getting H&Ps and talking to patients (even the crazy ones)- so I am going into emergency medicine).

My intern is actually a former attending surgeon from India who is trying to get accredited in the US so it is a great learning experience. How cool is that?

 

[docjagermeister]

Peds fo sho... combination of the annoyances of outpt medicine with the monotony of yet another URI with the illogical expectations of parents.

 

[Ypo.]

I'm on the OB-Gyn rotation now with 4 other students and what is interesting is that 3 of us think it is a great rotation and 2 of us hate it and have nothing good to say about the residents. Ironically, the two that hate it were caught sitting in the physician's lounge the other day for half of the shift while c-sections were going on. The perinatologist (who pulls the highest rank around here second to the program director) bitched them out. Now they hate the rotation. One of them constantly whines that the residents stab each other in the backs all the time and throw each other to the wolves, but couldn't come up with an actual example when asked. On the other hand, I have seen the residents stick up for each other time and time again in front of the perinatologist (who is a an extremely intellgient, intimidating, merciless pimper and can be really hard on you). These two students have the goal of follwing 'one' patient each per day since they have already logged all their requirements.

If you think about it, Ob-gyn is surgery with a bunch of females. So, it's bound to have the kind of malignancy that surgery has but in an estrogen dominated environment. Is it any wonder that they got bitched out for sitting around all day? You would never get away with this kind of crap on surgery. We were even warned several times before starting the rotation to not sit around in the physicians lounge while the residents were working.

Anyways, what can I say. I like the work involved. I like it in spite of controlling nurses and a female dominated environment. And we have some awesome attendings. Including one who first did IM, then surgery, then Ob-gyn.

 

[smq123]

If you think about it, Ob-gyn is surgery with a bunch of females.

**Ack**

Psst....Don't say this on your surgery rotation! Just don't do it! You can thank me later....

 

[haveaniceday]

I am on ob/gyn right now, almost done. I always had it ranked highly as one I thought about going into, as I have some prior experience in it.

It is now on the very bottom of the list...for all the reasons listed in this thread. It attracts a certain type of person (a type I don't want to be), and if you are not it than it is best to just get the rotation over with and move on.

Worst rotation of my 3rd year.

 

[kingcer0x]

It's easy to tell people not to take OB/Gyn too seriously, but I know people who *failed* because of personality conflicts with house staff or attendings.

Worse, I know of someone who *failed to match* in OB/Gyn because of what they wrote in a letter of "recommendation."

My prime motivation on that rotation was not to have to repeat it.

failed to match in ob/gyn? doesn't that just require a pulse and one, possibly 2 functioning upper extremities?

 

[Tired]

If you think about it, Ob-gyn is surgery with a bunch of females.

No, Ob-gyn is like surgery without surgeons.

 

[drivesmecraazee]

I am a MSII so I can't really say anything good nor bad about Ob/Gyn, I wasn't even aware of these Ob/Gyn bashing (I had probably heard it a couple of times but not in such a significant way) and I guess I'll try to be open about when I get to it. There is only one tought I get after reading all these arguments:
Why do people who actually like Ob/Gyn act so defensive all the time?
If they really like it and consider it a career, why spending sooo much time arguing with these "unreasonable bashers"?
C'mon, we all know that few others specialities get so bashed, probably Ob/Gyn is the most hated, but still, I´ve never seen other specialists defending their choice as much as Ob/Gyns, not for once.
You know, sometimes when you try so hard to argue with the other person, you're actually arguing with yourself. So, for the people who like Ob/Gyn: keep liking it, keep enjoying it, do it for the rest of your life or still consider it, don't spend so much time tryng to defend it, the people who hate has an opinion too, you can't change it.

 

[domer621]

I am a MSII so I can't really say anything good nor bad about Ob/Gyn, I wasn't even aware of these Ob/Gyn bashing (I had probably heard it a couple of times but not in such a significant way) and I guess I'll try to be open about when I get to it.

It has everything to do with it being composed mainly of women. Sorry to be sexist here, but it's true. Every female and male in my class has come to the conclusion that working with females just plain sucks. Just wait until 3rd year and you'll see. This fact actually extends beyond just ob/gyn...

 

[drivesmecraazee]

It has everything to do with it being composed mainly of women. Sorry to be sexist here, but it's true. Every female and male in my class has come to the conclusion that working with females just plain sucks. Just wait until 3rd year and you'll see. This fact actually extends beyond just ob/gyn...

It's not that hard yo! Just got to slap em'...Got to keep your pimpin' strong, don't let them dis' you!!

Im just kiding here ladies... actually, domer, I've worked with some femnales who are very pleasent to work with, I haven't done it in a hospital environment, I can still see what you mean, some females get in this ridiculously defensive positions (even other females can notice it) but it's definetly not a general rule.
Before you all start blaming me for everything, I'll say IM NOT SEXIST.

 

[domer621]

actually, domer, I've worked with some femnales who are very pleasent to work with

Oh, I've had some terrific female residents, don't get me wrong. The only truly bad/rude/moody residents I have had have been female, though. Again, my female classmates all agree.

 

[GoBuckeyes913]

If it helps any, after my first day of OB, I went home and cried. I was told to come the next day at 5am and to pre round on all the postpartum patients, mind you no one had told me what to do or what to look for. The surgeries were always the same, I got yelled at for pulling the retractors out too soon or too late, got splashed in blood all the time, got stuck with a needle and harassed for the rest of the rotation after that. I was also yelled at for not knowing how to deliver a baby on my first day of the LD part. I was told that I had to present a patient at morning report at 5am when I was totally unaware that I had to do so, after a very long night of call where I wasn't allowed to go to sleep, and I was

gangpimped

for about 30minutes by the attending and chief resident who did not want me to report the needle stick incident. Of course, I cried after that too. Don't worry, everyone I have talked to has hated OB. 90% of residents are catty, crazy, and evil. Many of the attendings, not all, are the same. Just be happy that it lasts only 6weeks, at least at my school, and that OB is one of the worst rotations for most people. Hang in there, and don't quit!

I've never heard this "gangpimp"..... *giggle*

 

[Top Gun]

Oh, I've had some terrific female residents, don't get me wrong. The only truly bad/rude/moody residents I have had have been female, though. Again, my female classmates all agree.

I've had nasty residents from both genders. There's a difference in the type of nastiness, though. With females, it tends to be more bitchiness or moodiness. Males, however, tend to be more like that big kid in elementary school who was always taking your lunch money.

 

[Ypo.]

No, Ob-gyn is like surgery without surgeons.

So you don't think hysterectomies count as surgery? Or are you just doing your usual OB-gyn bashing.

 

[smq123]

So you don't think hysterectomies count as surgery? Or are you just doing your usual OB-gyn bashing.

No, Ypo. - if you haven't done surgery yet, and you really enjoy OB/gyn, when you finally do your surgery rotation, you're in for a fun treat.

Surgeons don't believe that just because a procedure is done in the OR, it necessarily counts as surgery. They believe it only counts as surgery if the person doing it is a surgeon.

And general surgeons do not consider ob/gyns to be "real" surgeons. What the gen surgeons tell you is "The average ob/gyn gets 2 years of gyn surgery experience, vs. a surgeon's 4-5 years of surgery experience (and that's before fellowship). Many ob/gyns cannot handle the complications that they create (such as perforating a bowel, nicking a ureter, etc.), and are forced to call general surgery for help." (Most general surgeons find the latter event extremely comical, to say the least.) On some gen surg rotations, you will be reminded about these facts at least 3 times a day.

There was a thread in the surgery forums a while back about how Castro Viejo was asked to fix an ob/gyn's mistake (the ob/gyn was doing an LOA and then somehow created an enormous hole in the colon), and the ob/gyn constantly second-guessed everything that Castro Viejo did.

Trust me, I heard this day in and day out while on general surgery. Don't ever tell them that you want to be a "gynecological surgeon" (which they will consider to be an oxymoron), because trying to regain any respect after that remark will be an uphill battle. And I had to endure joke after joke about "Are you paying attention to the operation? Or were you daydreaming about delivering babies?" Lots and lots of jokes about ob/gyn from the surgeons.

 

[bjolly]

Ob/gyn was the only bad rotation of my 3rd year. This was due to the personalities of the people I worked with, and had nothing to do with the work itself. Unlike some things that have been said here, I don't think there's anything disgusting about working with vaginas. It's just another body part. Nor do I think it's because women are awful to work with. There were plenty of women around in all the different rotations 3rd year.

Unfortunately, the reidents at the program where I did ob/gyn were the most miserable, petty, malignant bunch of people I've ever met. I think this may have had to do with the fact that it was not a highly regarded ob/gyn program and I doubt any of them were there for their 1st choice. Or second. Or fifth. The attendings were actually pretty nice but seemed to have little control over the residents.

I never had any problems with the people on any of my other rotations, male or female. I expected to encounter malignant personalities on surgery and was pleasantly surprised not to. There were one or two along the way during surgery, but they were the exception. Most of the surgery residents and attendings I met (again, male or female) were classy and professional.

From this poll, there really does seem to be a problem with the personalities and culture in the field of ob/gyn.

 

[vtucci]

Oh, I've had some terrific female residents, don't get me wrong. The only truly bad/rude/moody residents I have had have been female, though. Again, my female classmates all agree.

Not my experience. I have seen some really bitchy male residents as well. I will agree that a culture of all men or all women is skewed and both tend to be malignant (albeit in different ways)

 

[drivesmecraazee]

No, Ypo. - if you haven't done surgery yet, and you really enjoy OB/gyn, when you finally do your surgery rotation, you're in for a fun treat.

Surgeons don't believe that just because a procedure is done in the OR, it necessarily counts as surgery. They believe it only counts as surgery if the person doing it is a surgeon.

And general surgeons do not consider ob/gyns to be "real" surgeons. What the gen surgeons tell you is "The average ob/gyn gets 2 years of gyn surgery experience, vs. a surgeon's 4-5 years of surgery experience (and that's before fellowship). Many ob/gyns cannot handle the complications that they create (such as perforating a bowel, nicking a ureter, etc.), and are forced to call general surgery for help." (Most general surgeons find the latter event extremely comical, to say the least.) On some gen surg rotations, you will be reminded about these facts at least 3 times a day.

There was a thread in the surgery forums a while back about how Castro Viejo was asked to fix an ob/gyn's mistake (the ob/gyn was doing an LOA and then somehow created an enormous hole in the colon), and the ob/gyn constantly second-guessed everything that Castro Viejo did.

Trust me, I heard this day in and day out while on general surgery. Don't ever tell them that you want to be a "gynecological surgeon" (which they will consider to be an oxymoron), because trying to regain any respect after that remark will be an uphill battle. And I had to endure joke after joke about "Are you paying attention to the operation? Or were you daydreaming about delivering babies?" Lots and lots of jokes about ob/gyn from the surgeons.

Yep...seems like hard life for Ob/Gyns......Ooohh c'mon if you actually enjoy Ob/Gyn, don't even pay attention to this stuff, that's what I dont understand, you keep saying that surgeon's behavior is silly and immature but yet you care about those coments. Do what makes you happy, Im sure Ob/Gyns are very important doctors too, since everyone here is in this world thanks to an Ob/Gyn (you all can say birth existed before medicine but still, it has lots of complications), so if you like it, you have all the answers that you need, but think first why do you waste so much time on these arguments? do you really like it?

 

[smq123]

Yep...seems like hard life for Ob/Gyns......

Thanks for your sarcasm. Especially since you have no experience with either surgery OR ob/gyn.

Ooohh c'mon if you actually enjoy Ob/Gyn, don't even pay attention to this stuff, that's what I dont understand, you keep saying that surgeon's behavior is silly and immature but yet you care about those coments. Do what makes you happy, Im sure Ob/Gyns are very important doctors too, since everyone here is in this world thanks to an Ob/Gyn (you all can say birth existed before medicine but still, it has lots of complications), so if you like it, you have all the answers that you need, but think first why do you waste so much time on these arguments? do you really like it?

No, you clearly misunderstood my post.

The purpose of my post was NOT to complain - it was merely to warn (and explain) to Ypo. what surgeons generally think of ob/gyns. And why she should NEVER equate surgery with gynecology procedures while on her surgery rotation.

I know that English is not your native language, so I'm just going to assume that that's where the miscommunication came in.

 

[SoCuteMD]

Yep...seems like hard life for Ob/Gyns......Ooohh c'mon if you actually enjoy Ob/Gyn, don't even pay attention to this stuff, that's what I dont understand, you keep saying that surgeon's behavior is silly and immature but yet you care about those coments. Do what makes you happy, Im sure Ob/Gyns are very important doctors too, since everyone here is in this world thanks to an Ob/Gyn (you all can say birth existed before medicine but still, it has lots of complications), so if you like it, you have all the answers that you need, but think first why do you waste so much time on these arguments? do you really like it?

If you notice, smq has neither attacked surgeons nor ob-gyns as silly or immature. What she says about surgeons' perceptions of ob-gyn and surgery is true, and her advice to Ypo. is valid. I say this as someone who has completed her general surgery (but not her ob-gyn rotation).

 

[Ypo.]

Lots of stuff...

Oh, trust me. I'm well aware that surgeons look down on OB-gyns. The other day we had a surgeon come in to fix a 5cm bladder tear that a 2nd yr OB-gyn resident did. That was embarassing all right.

But to be truthful, surgeons look down on everyone (or so I've heard). I can't worry about it.

Like Tired said in another thread, the gen surgeons do not handle gyn surgery. There is really nothing else to call it than surgery. Honestly I think it's stupid to not treat a hysterectomy or c-section with as much respect and care as you would any major surgery.Although I am not saying that I think that ob-gyns are anywhere near as accomplished as gen surgeons. Obviously they are not as they only get experience in the pelvis and don't know how to handle a lot of their own complications.

The real point that I was trying to make (before people got excited with the pissing contests), is that I think one of the reasons that Ob-gyn has such a malignant rep is that it has the hours and some of the intensity of surgery. Add to that a preponderance of estrogen and you have the right ingredients for cancerous personalities. Nevertheless, you have to do what you love. I personally like Ob-gyn in spite of some of it's faults.

 

[drivesmecraazee]

Thanks for your sarcasm. Especially since you have no experience with either surgery OR ob/gyn.

I've pointed my lack of experience in almost every post concerning this topic, no need to remind this to me, since I am already accepting it.
...And I wasn't trying to poin that life ISN'T hard for Ob/Gyns specifically, all I was saying is that somenone who actually enjoys a field shouldn't feel down becuase of the stuff you mentioned. I don't really need experience to say what I just said, it just applies to life in general.

No, you clearly misunderstood my post.

The purpose of my post was NOT to complain - it was merely to warn (and explain) to Ypo. what surgeons generally think of ob/gyns. And why she should NEVER equate surgery with gynecology procedures while on her surgery rotation.

I know that English is not your native language, so I'm just going to assume that that's where the miscommunication came in.

I didn't misunderstood your post, I identified a considerable amount of discomformity in your "tone", but then again, this is internet, Im not hearing you talk right here in front of me. Just because english ins't my native language you must assume I misunderstood something, maybe you didn't explain yourself in the proper way, or maybe it's just the perception I got, you know "no one's fault". By the way, I wasn't trying to be agresivw with you, it's just that I get a little bit confused about your position towards Ob/Gyn, who know, maybe it's one of those "love/hate" relationships...who knows...

 

[bones4u]

Mine was ob/gyn too - catty residents and attendings - everyone was impossible to get along with. plus the residents were in their own cat fight and took their aggression out on the students.

as a whole though i saw how empty the profession is. everyone is miserable. i also realized that obstetrics isn't even really a science, but more an algorithm to follow so you don't get sued. its pathetic.

its the hardest rotation at our school as well, with a horrible department, and just plain rude people. for the life of me i still don't understand why any of my classmates are going into this field?

To whoever is going into it - please make something of your field. your services are definitely needed, but just don't be a b*tch about it. and if you are upset because your life sucks, don't take it out on everyone else

 

[smq123]

I didn't misunderstood your post, I identified a considerable amount of discomformity in your "tone", but then again, this is internet, Im not hearing you talk right here in front of me. Just because english ins't my native language you must assume I misunderstood something, maybe you didn't explain yourself in the proper way, or maybe it's just the perception I got, you know "no one's fault". By the way, I wasn't trying to be agresivw with you, it's just that I get a little bit confused about your position towards Ob/Gyn, who know, maybe it's one of those "love/hate" relationships...who knows...

But SoCuteMD had no trouble understanding my point. So I got through to somebody - just not you.

It is not one of those "love/hate" relationships. I was merely trying to convey the typical general surgery attitude towards ob/gyn.

I'm sorry if you thought that I sounded angry or something - but, as a hint, if you start out your post with unwarranted sarcasm (particularly from someone who hasn't experienced either), then you're not going to get a pleasant response back. As a rule.

 

[drivesmecraazee]

I already explained the sarcasm part, nevermind...

 

[GoBuckeyes913]

I'd like to hear if anyone actually LIKED OB? Despite a horrible clerkship experience, what makes it redeemable? Does it bother you that these residents are mean, catty, miserable, obviously working more than 80 hrs/week, and appear to be hating life? If you had a good experience, what do you think about the fact that it has such a bad reputation and so many people have bad experiences.

I just wonder how this field attracts people. Even the surgeons appeared to be happy with their job and they are also working 80+ hrs/wk. I'd never seen anything like this.

The other thing that is irritating is when some of us have a horrible exprience and then some others thought it wasn't bad at all. What is different about us? Did they treat us differently or are we responding differently?

I'll speak out about the OB thing. My OB/GYN rotation was actually really fun (and I'm not even going into OB).... BUT, I know I just lucked out because all the residents and attendings I was with were awesome, laid-back, dirty-joke tellers that enjoyed teaching and letting students actually do stuff. ALSO, the female:male ration was like 5:7. The program director told me they used to have problems when there was more female residents (not surprised....and I myself am female), so they increased their male census and have been going uphill since. This isn't the norm though....... my classmates have been telling me some terrifying stories about their life-hating OB residents. I just thank my lucky stars, but it all depends on where you rotate and what the OB crew is like.

 

[Brickhouse]

http://postsecret.blogspot.com/


My secret? I'm tired of reading about how much people hate the career I have spent $250K and the last 7 years of my life training for and will spend the next 35 years of my life doing.

I promise to try to treat others differently than they have treated you.

 

[drewbie]

Ob/Gyn was by far the worst experience of my school career. The people, hours, and work are all miserable.

 

[Tired]

So you don't think hysterectomies count as surgery? Or are you just doing your usual OB-gyn bashing.

Somebody who performs procedures is not necessarily a surgeon. I know FPs who do vasectomies, and that doesn't make them surgeons. I know dermatologists who do that Mohs stuff, and they're not surgeons either.

Yes, I like bashing the Ob/Gyns because they treated me like absolute **** as a student. But in this case, they are simply not surgeons despite the fact that some of them perform surgery, and that's all I was trying to say.

 

[Anka]

The problem is, hysterectomies are surgery. They are serious surgery. And Ob/Gyns are not surgeons. I think the worst thing about "women's health" is that somehow it's okay that the person operating in the pelvis is not a trained surgeon as long as it's a woman they're operating on. Having seen the "obstetric surgeons" operate, I'm scared to death that I'll need a c section. If you really believe in women's health, train as a general surgeon, learn to do hysterectomies, and be there when I need mine.

[p.s., there are some ob/gyns who know what they're doing... the gyn oncs were pretty good, a few of the ob/gyns are reasonable; but the system they trained in is not set up to train surgeons.]

Anka

 

[persia]

Dear Brickhouse (and others):

Yes, please do go into ob and change it into something better than it is today. I did have a few nice residents who seemed to go out of their way to make my time there a good one. I was actually a good student, and they would always point out all the good things I did, and praised my work in general.

However, that did not go far enough to erase to overall malignancy of the environment or the devastating behavior I experienced. I was treated brutally, and even shoved in the shoulder by an attending during a c-section. Looking back, I think they knew what I was experiencing and tried to do their best.

Brick, be that kind of resident when it is your turn. If you can't fight the system, then at least don't contribute to it. I know practicing ob's who are super nice, but almost lost it going through their residencies. So, I suggest that the system is the problem; otherwise, why aren't family docs doing ob just as nasty? FP's are usually awesome ob docs, and the best teachers on the ward.

And as for the surgery vs c-section fight? what can I say, a quick slash and then two people pulling some poor women's stomach muscles apart with all their strength? is that surgery? or is that just something else. There has to be a better way to do that procedure, I swear. Why can't that be improved on?

 

[SoCuteMD]

http://postsecret.blogspot.com/


My secret? I'm tired of reading about how much people hate the career I have spent $250K and the last 7 years of my life training for and will spend the next 35 years of my life doing.

I promise to try to treat others differently than they have treated you.

I'll make fun of surgeons with you, Brickhouse

 

[abefromann]

"I know dermatologists who do that Mohs stuff, and they're not surgeons either."

wow. what are they?

 

[KECKington]

"I know dermatologists who do that Mohs stuff, and they're not surgeons either."

wow. what are they?

Dermat-urgeons!

 

[Ypo.]

Yes, I like bashing the Ob/Gyns because they treated me like absolute **** as a student.

It's time to let the anger go. Let the healing begin.

[p.s., there are some ob/gyns who know what they're doing... the gyn oncs were pretty good, a few of the ob/gyns are reasonable; but the system they trained in is not set up to train surgeons.]

Well, what do you propose doing differently?
I'm curious to hear specifics on this.


I can say (from my very limited experience thus far) that I can see a difference among attendings and residents. Some of the residents I have worked with downright scared me. Thankfully I cannot say that of any of the attendings, but there are definitely different skill levels. I would like to think that anyone (with enough diligence and experience) could become proficient in Ob-gyn surgery by the time they complete residency.

 

[Ypo.]

I was treated brutally, and even shoved in the shoulder by an attending during a c-section.

God forbid anyone ever get shoved in the OR.

 

[Tired]

"I know dermatologists who do that Mohs stuff, and they're not surgeons either."

wow. what are they?

They're . . . <wait for it> . . . Dermatologists.