Which Top 20 schools are pass/fail?

[mehc012]

I think you need to relax and reach out to friends or people here to see how stuff actually works.

At Hopkins, for instance, stuff might be pass fail but you get numbers and know exactly where you stand in the class rankings. It's an attempt at the best of both worlds mentality : competition against self and hopefully friendly competition with others while still collaborating.

Right. I understand how it works, (well, that it varies from school to school and I have some ideas of possible setups). I'm just saying that for me, I'd prefer actual grades.

Sorry if I'm not coming across as relaxed; I get frustrated when I do a $#!tty job of explaining myself.
I am a very collaborative student - I always try to work with others, explain things to others, share resources, flashcards, notes, you name it. Being graded or not graded doesn't change that. I just personally want the damn grades if possible!

Giving everyone a 'P' feels like, to me, everyone having to get a trophy as a kid. I'm OK knowing that I probably wouldn't get all A's (or even any) in a graded system...however, the ones I do earn, I want. It's probably one of the last opportunities to participate in a system where hard work is actually recognized, why pass that up?

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[Cyberdyne 101]

Right. I understand how it works, (well, that it varies from school to school and I have some ideas of possible setups). I'm just saying that for me, I'd prefer actual grades.

Sorry if I'm not coming across as relaxed; I get frustrated when I do a $#!tty job of explaining myself.
I am a very collaborative student - I always try to work with others, explain things to others, share resources, flashcards, notes, you name it. Being graded or not graded doesn't change that. I just personally want the damn grades if possible!

Giving everyone a 'P' feels like, to me, everyone having to get a trophy as a kid. I'm OK knowing that I probably wouldn't get all A's (or even any) in a graded system...however, the ones I do earn, I want. It's probably one of the last opportunities to participate in a system where hard work is actually recognized, why pass that up?

I don't think it's as simple as giving everyone a "P" It's probably more like "ok, you've demonstrated this level of mastery for this block, and now you're ready to move on."
I think you just have to accept that the grading scheme in med school is different from what you've been accustomed to.

 

[ridethecliche]

Right. I understand how it works, (well, that it varies from school to school and I have some ideas of possible setups). I'm just saying that for me, I'd prefer actual grades.

Sorry if I'm not coming across as relaxed; I get frustrated when I do a $#!tty job of explaining myself.
I am a very collaborative student - I always try to work with others, explain things to others, share resources, flashcards, notes, you name it. Being graded or not graded doesn't change that. I just personally want the damn grades if possible!

Giving everyone a 'P' feels like, to me, everyone having to get a trophy as a kid. I'm OK knowing that I probably wouldn't get all A's (or even any) in a graded system...however, the ones I do earn, I want. It's probably one of the last opportunities to participate in a system where hard work is actually recognized, why pass that up?

It is not the same thing at all. It is an internal vs external grading system. Everyone knows where they stand, as do your instructors. You're not getting a trophy because everyone in your class knows what the spread of the exams is like. Just because everyone gets a P doesn't mean that everyone performed the same. This will come through when people write you letters and do the other stuff that's actually necessary.

The P/F stuff is to get people to chill out, take a step back, and learn to study properly because there's going to be a mach truck of material hitting you everyday. It's to foster collaboration a bit too, but at the end of the day EVERYONE knows where they stand. It sounds like you do want that trophy because you want to see it shine. Unlike undergrad, the prize here isn't the grade. That's what you're missing.

 

[mehc012]

I don't think it's as simple as giving everyone a "P" It's probably more like "ok, you've demonstrated this level of mastery for this block, and now you're ready to move on."
I think you just have to accept that the grading scheme in med school is different from what you've been accustomed to.

It doesn't have to be...some schools are graded. I'm just saying that, all things being equivalent, I'd prefer graded.

Come on guys, I'm not so dense that I don't understand what P/F means...is it so bad that I simply don't like it? Why is that some incomprehensible thing? I also don't like coffee or ketchup - I know, I'm unAmerican.

 

[mehc012]

It is not the same thing at all. It is an internal vs external grading system. Everyone knows where they stand, as do your instructors. You're not getting a trophy because everyone in your class knows what the spread of the exams is like. Just because everyone gets a P doesn't mean that everyone performed the same. This will come through when people write you letters and do the other stuff that's actually necessary.

The P/F stuff is to get people to chill out, take a step back, and learn to study properly because there's going to be a mach truck of material hitting you everyday. It's to foster collaboration a bit too, but at the end of the day EVERYONE knows where they stand. It sounds like you do want that trophy because you want to see it shine. Unlike undergrad, the prize here isn't the grade. That's what you're missing.

In undergrad I didn't give a damn about the grades. That turned out to bite me in the butt in the end, but my main point being that I'm not some grade-driven robot or anything. I just think it's bull**** to delete them...if you got the grade, you got the grade, and whitewashing all of the transcripts is just weird. The fact that this then has to come through in letters and other stuff is just silly...you have the grades, just use the damn things.

Yeah, I do want the trophy...if I earned it. I never once earned a soccer trophy, but I got a bunch of those as a kid. They were patronizing and meaningless, and I eventually pitched them all. I didn't earn very many A's in college, but I know that the ones I did get, I earned. That is an awesome feeling.

If I have to earn it anyway, if my classmates know where I stand anyway, and if it is something that matters anyway (being reflected in letters and whatnot), then why not just have it? Why play games and pretend they don't exist?

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

It doesn't have to be...some schools are graded. I'm just saying that, all things being equivalent, I'd prefer graded.

Come on guys, I'm not so dense that I don't understand what P/F means...is it so bad that I simply don't like it? Why is that some incomprehensible thing? I also don't like coffee or ketchup - I know, I'm unAmerican.

Well then, just make sure you apply to Wash U

 

[mcloaf]

It doesn't have to be...some schools are graded. I'm just saying that, all things being equivalent, I'd prefer graded.

I apologize if you addressed this in one of your earlier responses as I didn't read the whole thread, but I think the dangerous flaw in your analysis is that you're not considering the effects that these policies will have on your classmates and your environment in addition to whatever motivating role it might have for your studying. I have friends in ranked, graded preclinical programs and they're pretty much uniformly unhappy as all their classmates are stressed and unhappy about their grades and ranks and it's made their med school experience much less enjoyable.

 

[mehc012]

I apologize if you addressed this in one of your earlier responses as I didn't read the whole thread, but I think the dangerous flaw in your analysis is that you're not considering the effects that these policies will have on your classmates and your environment in addition to whatever motivating role it might have for your studying. I have friends in ranked, graded preclinical programs and they're pretty much uniformly unhappy as all their classmates are stressed and unhappy about their grades and ranks and it's made their med school experience much less enjoyable.

Fair enough. I suppose it would be tough to find anyone willing to hang out with a neurotic med student aside from the other neurotic med students
I'm mostly resigned to ending up in a P/F program...there are other factors which are far more important to me, and at any rate, I'll likely not be in a position to pick and choose my ideal program. However, it is nice to know that something which many students consider to be a downside, I am not concerned about...maybe it'll scare everyone off of a school and I'll sneak in off the waitlist I just didn't expect my position to be so vehemently shut down, wow.

 

[mcloaf]

I just didn't expect my position to be so vehemently shut down, wow.

It's because only those of us at P/F schools have time to post on SDN while we're streaming lectures in the background.

But either way good luck, I'm sure you'll be successful wherever you end up.

 

[nemo123]

1. Harvard University - YES: http://hms.harvard.edu/departments/...tion-and-policies/203-grading-and-examination
2. Stanford University - YES: http://med.stanford.edu/md/curriculum/assessment-grading.html
3. Johns Hopkins University - NO: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/pass-fail-schools.926253/#post-12700616
4. University of California—San Francisco - YES: http://meded.ucsf.edu/ume/essential-core-assessment-and-grading-policy
5. University of Pennsylvania (Perelman) - NO: http://www.med.upenn.edu/admiss/curriculum2.html
6. Washington University in St. Louis - NO: http://bulletinoftheschoolofmedicine.wustl.edu/policies/mdprogram/Pages/GradingSystem.aspx
7. Yale University - YES: http://medicine.yale.edu/education/admissions/education/yalesystem.aspx
8. Columbia University - YES: http://ps.columbia.edu/ps/education/academic-progress-promotion
9. Duke University
10. University of Washington - NO: http://www.washington.edu/students/gencat/academic/school_medicine.html
11. University of Chicago (Pritzker) - YES: https://pritzker.uchicago.edu/admissions/faq.shtml
12. University of California—Los Angeles (Geffen) - YES: http://www.medstudent.ucla.edu/offices/sao/clinical/GradingStudentEvaluations.cfm, http://alphaomegaalpha.org/ucla_chapter_info.html
13. University of Michigan—Ann Arbor - YES: http://www.med.umich.edu/lrc/medcurriculum/curriculum/grading.html
14. University of California—San Diego - YES: http://senate.ucsd.edu/manual/Regulations/SDRegulation503.pdf
15. Cornell University (Weill) - YES: http://weill.cornell.edu/education/curriculum/first/hum_str_stu.html
16. Vanderbilt University - YES: https://medschool.mc.vanderbilt.edu/edtech/logon_onlinegrading/php_files/policies_view.php
17. University of Pittsburgh - NO: http://www.omed.pitt.edu/curriculum/ms-1.php, http://www.omed.pitt.edu/curriculum/ms-2.php
18. Northwestern University (Feinberg) - NO: http://www.feinberg.northwestern.ed...ormation/awards-honors/alpha-omega-alpha.html
19. Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai - YES: http://icahn.mssm.edu/static_files/MSSM/Files/Education/Student Resources/Student Handbooks/Student Handbooks 2013/Grading System.pdf
20. New York University - NO: http://school.med.nyu.edu/studentsf...ducation/curriculum/curriculum-stages/stage-1; http://webdoc.nyumc.org/school2/files/school2/Alpha_Omega_Alpha_Medical_Honor_Society.pdf

I think Cornell has internal rankings (but I don't even know what that would mean since our first and second quiz average was an 89 and a 93 respectively... )... At second look, someone asked the dean if there were internal rankings and the dean avoided our question.

Basically, this is a mystery at all schools and apparently, I remember reading a post by @southernIM (I think), saying that schools who apparently claim to be "true" pass/fail use descriptive/code words to describe your performance during the pre-clinical years (with a key at the end saying what those code words mean).

@southernIM , have you seen any code words/rankings used in Cornell's dean's letter (if you've seen them)?

 

[nemo123]

Vanderbilt is now P/F during years 1 and 2 (i.e., during pre-clinical and clinical years). This was revealed within the last two weeks. I suspect this has a lot to do with the immersion blocks during 3rd and 4th year, but I'm still a little unsure why they eliminated Honors from clerkships.

Wouldn't that mean that you're internally ranked somewhere still?

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

I think Cornell has internal rankings (but I don't even know what that would mean since our first and second quiz average was an 89 and a 93 respectively... )... At second look, someone asked the dean if there were internal rankings and the dean avoided our question.

Basically, this is a mystery at all schools and apparently, I remember reading a post by @southernIM (I think), saying that schools who apparently claim to be "true" pass/fail use descriptive/code words to describe your performance during the pre-clinical years (with a key at the end saying what those code words mean).

@southernIM , have you seen any code words/rankings used in Cornell's dean's letter (if you've seen them)?

So there are a couple of issues at play here.

1) This is a list of top 20 schools that are pass/fail for the preclinical years (M1-M2); the list of schools that are pass/fail for the clinical years is much much shorter. So even among these lists, there is likely still ranking at the vast majority - it's just only based on the clinical performance.

2) A number of schools who claim to be pass/fail actually do still internally rank candidates based on their performance in individual classes. Most people would agree that this does not meet the definition of "true" pass/fail. But often the schools are somewhat withholding of this information with students.

3) The vast vast majority of MSPE's I have reviewed (in my capacity performing residency interviews at my program the past 2 years) have a codeword in the final paragraph of the document which correlates to a quantile ranking within the class. The appendix to the MSPE then gives a key to decoding these adjectives. I'm sure I have read a Cornell MSPE but my memory is nowhere near good enough to remember the specifics of how theirs is structured/worded.

 

[DermViser]

I think Cornell has internal rankings (but I don't even know what that would mean since our first and second quiz average was an 89 and a 93 respectively... )... At second look, someone asked the dean if there were internal rankings and the dean avoided our question.

Basically, this is a mystery at all schools and apparently, I remember reading a post by @southernIM (I think), saying that schools who apparently claim to be "true" pass/fail use descriptive/code words to describe your performance during the pre-clinical years (with a key at the end saying what those code words mean).

@southernIM , have you seen any code words/rankings used in Cornell's dean's letter (if you've seen them)?

No it's not a "mystery". You can find out by being proactive.

All medical schools rank at the end on your MSPE (Dean's letter) in some way.

- Ordinal Rank: Nemo ranks 5th out of 150 students
- Segment of the class: Nemo is in the 1st quartile/1st third of his class
- Percentage of the class: Nemo is in the top 5%/10% of his class
- Code Word: Nemo will make an Outstanding/Excellent/Very Good/Good house officer.

This is an OVERALL rank.

You can Google many sample MSPEs from different med school institutions to see exactly how they do it.

Here's one example of a school that is very transparent:
https://pritzker.uchicago.edu/admissions/faq.shtml
Pass/Fail grading at the Pritzker School of Medicine is both a true pass/fail for years 1, 2, and 4. Third year—the clerkships—is a “graded” year with the grades of Honors, High Pass, Pass, Low Pass, and Fail.

When we're referring to "true" P/F this is referring to the first 2 years of basic sciences only. I'm surprised that the Dean at Cornell would just ignore the question, although I am not surprised he didn't answer directly - esp. at a 2nd look when people are still deciding where to attend. Did he just not answer it or obfuscated? Cornell just this year (I believe) changed to Pass/Fail. They were H/P/F before that I believe.

 

[DermViser]

I think you need to relax and reach out to friends or people here to see how stuff actually works.

At Hopkins, for instance, stuff might be pass fail but you get numbers and know exactly where you stand in the class rankings. It's an attempt at the best of both worlds mentality : competition against self and hopefully friendly competition with others while still collaborating.

So then Hopkins is P/F in the first 2 years but internally ranks.

 

[nemo123]

No it's not a "mystery". You can find out by being proactive.

All medical schools rank at the end on your MSPE (Dean's letter) in some way.

- Ordinal Rank: Nemo ranks 5th out of 150 students
- Segment of the class: Nemo is in the 1st quartile/1st third of his class
- Percentage of the class: Nemo is in the top 5%/10% of his class
- Code Word: Nemo will make an Outstanding/Excellent/Very Good/Good house officer.

This is an OVERALL rank.

You can Google many sample MSPEs from different med school institutions to see exactly how they do it.

Here's one example of a school that is very transparent:
https://pritzker.uchicago.edu/admissions/faq.shtml
Pass/Fail grading at the Pritzker School of Medicine is both a true pass/fail for years 1, 2, and 4. Third year—the clerkships—is a “graded” year with the grades of Honors, High Pass, Pass, Low Pass, and Fail.

When we're referring to "true" P/F this is referring to the first 2 years of basic sciences only. I'm surprised that the Dean at Cornell would just ignore the question, although I am not surprised he didn't answer directly - esp. at a 2nd look when people are still deciding where to attend. Did he just not answer it or obfuscated? Cornell just this year (I believe) changed to Pass/Fail. They were H/P/F before that I believe.

Lol, I meant a mystery in terms of whether schools really are true pass-fail if they claim to be. If I remember correctly, I believe @southernIM pointed out Pritzker specifically and said they used a code word to describe their students' performance during the pre-clinical years, so basically their website is not telling the truth lol. The dean answered the question, but the answer was similar to an answer you would get in a political debate (she basically avoided the question). Cornell changed to P/F around 2009 I think.

 

[DermViser]

Lol, I meant a mystery in terms of whether schools really are true pass-fail if they claim to be. If I remember correctly, I believe @southernIM pointed out Pritzker specifically and said they used a code word to describe their students' performance during the pre-clinical years, so basically their website is not telling the truth lol. The dean answered the question, but the answer was similar to an answer you would get in a political debate (she basically avoided the question). Cornell changed to P/F around 2009 I think.

Sigh. Let me explain this again. Pritzker is "true" P/F when it comes to GRADING in the first 2 years, not in overall RANKING. They even say: "Pass/Fail grading at the Pritzker School of Medicine is both a true pass/fail for years 1, 2, and 4. Third year—the clerkships—is a “graded” year with the grades of Honors, High Pass, Pass, Low Pass, and Fail."

So in the first 2 years the only grades are "P" or "F" with no further internal rankings of that "P". My "P" of 95 in Histology is equal to your "P" of 83 in Histology. In the MS-3 year, required clerkships are graded Honors/High Pass/Pass/Low Pass/Fail as they said.

So they are telling the truth. You can see a sample MSPE from Pritzker here (page 41): http://pritzker.uchicago.edu/current/students/ResidencyProcessGuide.pdf

They even say: The Pritzker School of Medicine does not use a numeric ranking system. Generalized descriptors given to each student including “exceptional performer,” “outstanding,” “excellent,” “very good,” and “good” are based on the student’s performance in the third year.

So they use code words to rank you in Pritzker's MSPE.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

Lol, I meant a mystery in terms of whether schools really are true pass-fail if they claim to be. If I remember correctly, I believe @southernIM pointed out Pritzker specifically and said they used a code word to describe their students' performance during the pre-clinical years, so basically their website is not telling the truth lol. The dean answered the question, but the answer was similar to an answer you would get in a political debate (she basically avoided the question). Cornell changed to P/F around 2009 I think.

No, I didn't mean to imply that Pritzker was lying in their website. Their website actually gives a laudable amount of detail in comparison to most schools.

Their MSPE most definitely includes a ranking adjective (there happened to be a lot of Pritzker students going into surgery last year so I think I reviewed 5 or 6 of their apps). But it is, according to their website at least, based on their performance only in the clinical year.

 

[DermViser]

It doesn't have to be...some schools are graded. I'm just saying that, all things being equivalent, I'd prefer graded.

Come on guys, I'm not so dense that I don't understand what P/F means...is it so bad that I simply don't like it? Why is that some incomprehensible thing? I also don't like coffee or ketchup - I know, I'm unAmerican.

You are free to go to a med school that grades everything from top to bottom from the moment you enter to get all the "trophies" you desire.

 

[cs24]

I have friends in ranked, graded preclinical programs and they're pretty much uniformly unhappy as all their classmates are stressed and unhappy about their grades and ranks and it's made their med school experience much less enjoyable.

I'm actually in a ranked, graded preclinical program and honestly no one I can think of really stresses about their grades/ranks. You just learn to accept where you are in the heap. Environment is still very collaborative, no gunning, etc. I think the evils of a graded preclinical curriculum is vastly overstated on SDN by the people who are in love with their current true P/F programs. However, I am sure it varies by the school and its unique environment (ie grades at WUSTL may make for a more intense environment than they do at my school).

 

[cs24]

It doesn't have to be...some schools are graded. I'm just saying that, all things being equivalent, I'd prefer graded.

Come on guys, I'm not so dense that I don't understand what P/F means...is it so bad that I simply don't like it? Why is that some incomprehensible thing? I also don't like coffee or ketchup - I know, I'm unAmerican.

As a med student at a graded school, I agree with your perspective. Grades make me push myself harder and learn more, which for me, is a good thing. If you can't handle that pressure to perform better and it negatively affects your life, maybe it would be a problem, but I can work hard for grades and still a good life balance that keeps me from stressing out.

I wonder if the more neurotic need P/F to keep them from overly stressing about grades if they aren't at the top of their class...

In all seriousness though, grades or no grades for preclinicals, just work hard, learn as much as you can, and accept the result. For me, having grades is likely going to make me learn more, so I'm glad to have them. I don't understand all the hate preclinical grades get in Allo.

 

[DermViser]

Fair enough. I suppose it would be tough to find anyone willing to hang out with a neurotic med student aside from the other neurotic med students
I'm mostly resigned to ending up in a P/F program...there are other factors which are far more important to me, and at any rate, I'll likely not be in a position to pick and choose my ideal program. However, it is nice to know that something which many students consider to be a downside, I am not concerned about...maybe it'll scare everyone off of a school and I'll sneak in off the waitlist I just didn't expect my position to be so vehemently shut down, wow.

Pity the thought.

 

[nemo123]

Sigh. Let me explain this again. Pritzker is "true" P/F when it comes to GRADING in the first 2 years, not in overall RANKING. They even say: "Pass/Fail grading at the Pritzker School of Medicine is both a true pass/fail for years 1, 2, and 4. Third year—the clerkships—is a “graded” year with the grades of Honors, High Pass, Pass, Low Pass, and Fail."

So in the first 2 years the only grades are "P" or "F" with no further internal rankings of that "P". My "P" of 95 in Histology is equal to your "P" of 83 in Histology. In the MS-3 year, required clerkships are graded Honors/High Pass/Pass/Low Pass/Fail as they said.

So they are telling the truth. You can see a sample MSPE from Pritzker here (page 41): http://pritzker.uchicago.edu/current/students/ResidencyProcessGuide.pdf

They even say: The Pritzker School of Medicine does not use a numeric ranking system. Generalized descriptors given to each student including “exceptional performer,” “outstanding,” “excellent,” “very good,” and “good” are based on the student’s performance in the third year.

So they use code words to rank you in Pritzker's MSPE.

Oh I missed that important distinction between ranking and grading... Thanks for the clarification though.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

See this other thread (and the attached reference) for more information:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/med-school-internal-ranking-transparency.1097888/page-2

Here is their description of Pritzker since you asked:

Although the summary paragraphs misleadingly states there are no class rankings, in fact, in descending order, the deans describe their students as Exceptional, Outstanding , Excellent, Very Good, Good and Acceptable. An Appendix D defines the numerical boundaries for the higher categories as Exceptional 32.5%, Outstanding 23%, Excellent 37.4% and Very Good 4.8%, leaving Good and Acceptable undefined.

 

[MilkIsGood]

No, I didn't mean to imply that Pritzker was lying in their website. Their website actually gives a laudable amount of detail in comparison to most schools.

Their MSPE most definitely includes a ranking adjective (there happened to be a lot of Pritzker students going into surgery last year so I think I reviewed 5 or 6 of their apps). But it is, according to their website at least, based on their performance only in the clinical year.

Yes, the adjectives used are for 3rd year performance only.

 

[DermViser]

See this other thread (and the attached reference) for more information:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/med-school-internal-ranking-transparency.1097888/page-2

Here is their description of Pritzker since you asked:

Albany uses 3 descriptors in the summary paragraph; recommend highly for the top third of their students, recommend without reservation for the middle third, and recommend as a positive presence for the bottom third. LOL!!

 

[Frazier]

Pitt is P/F. Ranked.

"Passing" isn't necessarily a total breeze -- although it is set up nicely. The fail mark is set to 2 SD's below the mean (given that a failing score is less than a 70).

So basically a handful of people fail each exam, but as long as you aren't in the bottom 4-8, you will get the P.

 

[DermViser]

Pitt is P/F. Ranked.

"Passing" isn't necessarily a total breeze -- although it is set up nicely. The fail mark is set to 2 SD's below the mean (given that a failing score is less than a 70).

So basically a handful of people fail each exam, but as long as you aren't in the bottom 4-8, you will get the P.

So they internally rank in the first 2 years?

 

[Frazier]

So they internally rank in the first 2 years?

Yeah, although I forget if only for AOA purposes or dean's letter quartiles.

Funny, I used to know as an MS1. Not so much now.

 

[DermViser]

Yeah, although I forget if only for AOA purposes or dean's letter quartiles.

Funny, I used to know as an MS1. Not so much now.

They do for both. No school only internally ranks for one but not the other.

 

[Ismet]

Yeah, although I forget if only for AOA purposes or dean's letter quartiles.

Funny, I used to know as an MS1. Not so much now.

It's for both. Our MSPE does the code word thing as far as I know.

 

[BABSstudent]

Yes - P/F with no internal ranking. Which ones are incorrect? UCLA has "Letters with Distinction" but they don't mean jack squat in the first 2 years.

UWash is incorrect if I read your list correctly. It's pass/fail for preclinicals with no internal rank for those years. Then H/P/F for clinicals with rankings based on required clerkships during third year.

Your source for it is the wrong website. The medical school website is uwmedicine.org. The one on Washington.edu is not managed by the medical school and hasn't been updated in a few years.

 

[DermViser]

UWash is incorrect if I read your list correctly. It's pass/fail for preclinicals with no internal rank for those years. Then H/P/F for clinicals with rankings based on required clerkships during third year.

Your source for it is the wrong website. The medical school website is uwmedicine.org. The one on Washington.edu is not managed by the medical school and hasn't been updated in a few years.

Thanks! I was going by what someone posted in Post #28. It's corrected now.

 

[tantacles]

Agreed. P=MD is more of a joke than an actual goal. It was tossed around a ton in pre-clinical when we were facing a difficult exam, but you can sure bet that people were studying their butts off for it.

It's nice that there's no severe consequences for barely passing a couple exams, though. Of course if you go through all of pre-clinical like that, you're going to have major problems come boards time and clinical years. But if you have to deal with an emergency or you're having a lot of trouble with a subject or something, I think that's where the P=MD mentality is nice to fall back on and be less stressed. In MS1, I broke my leg a few days before an exam that was worth >50% of the block grade (aka if you fail that exam you fail the block and have to remediate) and at that point I was extremely thankful just to pass. Also nice for people with kids, family emergencies, etc. But not a mentality to follow consistently throughout.

To be fair, it's very person-specific. I purposely went through those years with a P = MD mentality (at an ABCF school, no less!) so that I'd be ready to study for Step I when the time came, and it worked very well.

 

[Essee]

I'm an M1 at a true P/F school and I'm just putting it out there that if you have the opportunity to go to a true P/F school you should just go. As premeds you don't truly understand how fundamentally better your quality of life is during preclinical years with true pass fail. You will be much happier for it, have more free time to pursue your interests and your classmates will get along better. This is invaluable. I didn't understand how important P/F was until now.

 

[breakintheroof]

UWash is incorrect if I read your list correctly. It's pass/fail for preclinicals with no internal rank for those years. Then H/P/F for clinicals with rankings based on required clerkships during third year.

Your source for it is the wrong website. The medical school website is uwmedicine.org. The one on Washington.edu is not managed by the medical school and hasn't been updated in a few years.

I posted the earlier link. Thanks for the correction. Amazing that this misinformation persists online, probably affecting applicants' decisions about applying to UWash.

I was able to dig up the 2013 student handbook with the correct information, but it was harder to find than the outdated info.

 

[BABSstudent]

I posted the earlier link. Thanks for the correction. Amazing that this misinformation persists online, probably affecting applicants' decisions about applying to UWash.

I dug up the 2013 student handbook and it confirms that they've been P/F for some time.

It's also weird that the med school website is a .org and not an .edu. That probably trips people up a bit.

However, I doubt it affects that many people. UW is very hard to get into being OOS because of the type of students they want (need to be extremely committed to underserved medicine and/or rural medicine). Even then, the school is ridiculously expensive if you don't get one of 8 OOS scholarships to bring tuition down to instate cost. We are the highest of the top 10 in OOS costs and still the highest until you get to #40. 3rd/4th year is like $81k for OOS people, and that's just the cost for tuition!

http://www.uwmedicine.org/education...dent-affairs/financial-aid/budget-information

 

[moisne]

I know, makes me sad...I would definitely choose a graded program over P/F, all other things being equal. I know myself too well to presume that I would get as much out of a program with more wiggle room. Fortunately, given my gpa, I have no call to be concerned about the systems in place at top 20 institutions

You will be competing against basically people of your intelligence (give or take), a new bell curve will take place. I usually (as in almost always) get A, but I have a very low B right now.


Med schools will throw tons of stuff at you (not exaggerating)... It's not "hardl, it's just a lot. Collaboration works better with P/F.

 

[DermViser]

Vanderbilt is now P/F during years 1 and 2 (i.e., during pre-clinical and clinical years). This was revealed within the last two weeks. I suspect this has a lot to do with the immersion blocks during 3rd and 4th year, but I'm still a little unsure why they eliminated Honors from clerkships.

Really? If so, they haven't updated their website: https://medschool.vanderbilt.edu/student-affairs/grading-policy

 

[Endure]

Really? If so, they haven't updated their website: https://medschool.vanderbilt.edu/student-affairs/grading-policy

Yes. The rationale is that students with one year of basic science shouldn't be compared to students with two. That said, our immersion blocks and research clerkship will be traditionally graded.

 

[DermViser]

Yes. The rationale is that students with one year of basic science shouldn't be compared to students with two. That said, our immersion blocks and research clerkship will be traditionally graded.

That makes no sense. Everyone who goes to Vanderbilt would be having 1 year of basic science. So everyone is on equal footing at Vanderbilt when it comes to the clerkship year. The website link says:
Honors/High Pass/Pass/Fail: Final grades of Honors (H), High Pass (HP), Pass (P), Fail (F) will be applied in the following courses:

• All clerkships
• Required senior (or Immersion phase) courses
• Continuity Clinical Experience/VPIL after FMK Phase

 

[Mad Jack]

Correct following the P=MD mantra in terms of how much one should study is completely foolhardy. I know of no one (definitely not on SDN) who has advocated that just aiming for a P is fine. My point was that if getting a "grade" is your primary motivation, med school will eat you alive esp. in certain evaluative assessments in which the grade is not clear. It breeds neuroticism with no real benefit in terms of qualities PDs are looking for in residents. All over multiple choice questions.

For example, getting Honors in a clerkship is not a list which you check off certain things on a rubric and get your H. Interns/residents catch onto the above attitude quite quickly. It's so obvious when someone is trying hard for a grade vs. someone who is trying hard to make things flow better. Doing things without secondary reward is a skill to learn bc once you're an intern/resident, you'll be doing A LOT of things, where the grade isn't your prize.

I'm all about just getting a P in the preclinical years. Anything else is icing. Board scores, research, volunteering, and clinical grades are where I'm focusing. I'll probably end up in the middle of the class rank, and I'm perfectly okay with that.

 

[DermViser]

I'm all about just getting a P in the preclinical years. Anything else is icing. Board scores, research, volunteering, and clinical grades are where I'm focusing. I'll probably end up in the middle of the class rank, and I'm perfectly okay with that.

I'm assuming you go to a non-"true" P/F school. The likelihood of smashing Step 1 out of the water 250/260+, with straight "P"s in basic sciences isn't very high. That said if you know what you're going for and it's not ridiculously competitive, then your strategy probably works.

 

[Endure]

That makes no sense. Everyone who goes to Vanderbilt would be having 1 year of basic science. So everyone is on equal footing at Vanderbilt when it comes to the clerkship year. The website link says:
Honors/High Pass/Pass/Fail: Final grades of Honors (H), High Pass (HP), Pass (P), Fail (F) will be applied in the following courses:

• All clerkships
• Required senior (or Immersion phase) courses
• Continuity Clinical Experience/VPIL after FMK Phase

Right now, people are completing clerkships with different pre-clinical curricula.

I'm not entirely sure why you're arguing with me seeing as how I go to the school, but I can assure you that the grading policy has recently changed.

 

[DermViser]

Right now, people are completing clerkships with different pre-clinical curricula.

I'm not entirely sure why you're arguing with me seeing as how I go to the school, but I can assure you that the grading policy has recently changed.

No, I'm saying within a particular class, everyone has gone thru the same curriculum. So people who did Curriculum 1.0 are all judged the same standard when they enter clerkships and are ranked, same for the class that did Curriculum 1.5, and now Curriculum 2.0. Everyone within a particular class has the same basic science education and is ranked.

That website is for those going thru Curriculum 2.0, unless they made an additional change recently. If that's the case, then PDs will just rely more on Step scores.

 

[Mad Jack]

I'm assuming you go to a non-"true" P/F school. The likelihood of smashing Step 1 out of the water 250/260+, with straight "P"s in basic sciences isn't very high. That said if you know what you're going for and it's not ridiculously competitive, then your strategy probably works.

I'm doing my best to learn the material- I seriously study dawn to dusk every day. But I'm focusing more on what will be on the boards for every given topic and less on what my professors care about.

 

[DermViser]

I'm doing my best to learn the material- I seriously study dawn to dusk every day. But I'm focusing more on what will be on the boards for every given topic and less on what my professors care about.

And what gives you insight currently as to what will be on the boards and what won't be?

 

[Earl Simmons]

UTSW, which used to be a longtime T20 until it dropped recently, is moving to a 1.5 year preclinical true pass fail.

 

[Mad Jack]

And what gives you insight currently as to what will be on the boards and what won't be?

BRS, First Aid, Kaplan, Pathoma, etc. It's not that I'm not studying for my professor's tests, it's just that I go over their material twice (say, embryo) then I go over it in the board review books to see what sorts of questions might pop up relating to the material and what the most critical parts are for the Steps. It's a similar approach to how I studied for the MCAT and my respiratory licensing exam before that, we'll see how well it works for the Steps. I scored 96th percentile on the MCAT and 99th percentile on my RRT exam, so I'm going with the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" mentality. It's not like I'm gunning for anything competitive, I'm sure I'll be fine being average across the board.

 

[Endure]

No, I'm saying within a particular class, everyone has gone thru the same curriculum. So people who did Curriculum 1.0 are all judged the same standard when they enter clerkships and are ranked, same for the class that did Curriculum 1.5, and now Curriculum 2.0. Everyone within a particular class has the same basic science education and is ranked.

Truth be told, I'm not entirely sure why they eliminated honors myself (at the very least).

We will certainly be compared to students at other schools who have undergone two years of basic science. Since the purpose of 2.0 is to redistribute the science content more evenly (not condense it), my guess is the administrators wanted to protect us from being judged unfairly.

Are you a resident at VUMC? You reference and critique Vanderbilt pretty frequently.

 

[DermViser]

Truth be told, I'm not entirely sure why they eliminated honors myself (at the very least).

We will certainly be compared to students at other schools who have undergone two years of basic science. Since the purpose of 2.0 is to redistribute the science content more evenly (not condense it), my guess is the administrators wanted to protect us from being judged unfairly.

Are you a resident at VUMC? You reference and critique Vanderbilt pretty frequently.

Your USMLE Step 1 score will be used to compare your basic science knowledge, regardless if it's 1 or 2 years, when it comes to other schools. Your clinical rotation grades (or lack there of) will more be used to compare where you stand within your own class as far as your clinical acumen. It's why UCLA recently changed their grading system to H/HP/P/F when it was Pass/Fail before, bc PDs outside the UCLA system were saying they had no idea how to interpret their Dean's letters. And some gunnery med students thought they were maybe losing interviews they otherwise would not have gotten.

There's a reason why schools teach basic sciences w/in 1.5 to 2 years, you take Step 1 and then you move on.