Why are loans thought of so horrifically?

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Another way to drive the point home is to consider your income at various ages.

Say you are 26 at med school graduation ( so relatively young). You are 2-300k in debt because of loans despite living like a broke student. 4 years later you are still living like a broke student and still 2-300k in debt because you are trying to pay back your loans while living on a resident's salary (someone who can run the numbers here on how much headway you can make into paying back loans? Moonlighting will help a lot if possible). So you are now 30 and getting your first attending job (4 year residency is not the shortest but also not the longest). If you do as you propose and pay back $5000 per month which I highly recommend, you may still be living like a broke student until you are 35. It sucks. Especially because as everyone has mentioned, most of the time you are asking your spouse and kids to do it with you.

This scenario may be overly gloomy, but your original proposal of paying back $5k/mo on a salary of $150k is pretty hard living for someone in their 30s with a family, esp if in a high COL area. Monthly budget not going toward student loans is only $2500 in this scenario by my estimate, most of which could easily go towards housing costs.

I remember reading this thread a while ago and thought it was helpful.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/monthly-resident-budget.1059379/
The calculation for me was that I would be paying to do a residency. If I did IBR/PAYE throughout residency, my loan would grow by about $20K/yr due to interest

(Eg. I have 3 interviews at cheaper schools coming up, if I do not get into one of those and go to the school I'm in now: I will graduate with $435K- that is my loans plus the interest that will capitalize after graduation. If I do a 5 yr residency, I will end with $515K before I am an attending)

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The calculation for me was that I would be paying to do a residency. If I did IBR/PAYE throughout residency, my loan would grow by about $20K/yr due to interest

(Eg. I have 3 interviews at cheaper schools coming up, if I do not get into one of those and go to the school I'm in now: I will graduate with $435K- that is my loans plus the interest that will capitalize after graduation. If I do a 5 yr residency, I will end with $515K before I am an attending)

Thanks for sharing your math... I had assumed loan burden would stay even during residency- you are saying it will increase in certain scenarios. This is very good food for thought for others making decisions.

More motivation to minimize and then pay down debt aggressively.
 
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Thanks for sharing your math... I had assumed loan burden would stay even during residency- you are saying it will increase in certain scenarios. This is very good food for thought for others making decisions.

More motivation to minimize and then pay down debt aggressively.
Yep, the current interest rates on Grad PLUS loans can range anywhere from 4.6% to 10.5% and is set each July, so it's hard to get an accurate estimate. Assuming a 7% interest, my loans will accrue $30K/yr in interest, which I cannot pay on a resident's salary (perhaps with moonlighting, but I don't really know how much you can make realistically while moonlighting).

And I'll even have a little more than $10K saved by the time I start, but with the rate of tuition increase that money is eaten away and won't bring down my calculated total. Most schools increase by about $1K/yr, so that is $1K + $2K + $3K + $4K = $10K of money just going to balancing out the increase in tuition from what they are right now
 
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Yep, the current interest rates on Grad PLUS loans can range anywhere from 4.6% to 10.5% and is set each July, so it's hard to get an accurate estimate. Assuming a 7% interest, my loans will accrue $30K/yr in interest, which I cannot pay on a resident's salary (perhaps with moonlighting, but I don't really know how much you can make realistically while moonlighting).

And I'll even have a little more than $10K saved by the time I start, but with the rate of tuition increase that money is eaten away and won't bring down my calculated total. Most schools increase by about $1K/yr, so that is $1K + $2K + $3K + $4K = $10K of money just going to balancing out the increase in tuition from what they are right now

I would look into moonlighting, especially if you are anticipating that much debt at graduation. I never had to do it, but my husband did and I think it was quite a bit of cash.
 
I would look into moonlighting, especially if you are anticipating that much debt at graduation. I never had to do it, but my husband did and I think it was quite a bit of cash.
Oh yeah, I definitely plan on moonlighting if I can- I just don't know how to work that into my calculations.
 
Oh yeah, I definitely plan on moonlighting if I can- I just don't know how to work that into my calculations.

My suggestion is don't at this point (although maybe as you make residency/ fellowship decisions I would think about it again)! I think you seem like the kind of person who will make good financial decisions. Moonlighting bonus will just help you throw off that shackle of debt a little earlier.
 
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You shouldn't include it in any calculations.

Very few fields can allow a resident to moonlight on a frequent basis while clinical - you typically need a full medical license (i.e. Can't do any moonlighting intern year). Moonlighting hours also count against the 80hr workweek, so in many fields you basically can't do it while clinical.

The only fields where you really hear of it as a prominent and reliable income supplement are psych and EM.

Otherwise if you're doing medicine or a surgical field - next to nada.

Spouse and I did training a while back, so things of course have changed.

However, where I work now, has some moonlighting opportunities for senior IM residents as well as fellows.

I know my home program has moonlighting opportunities for post-medicine fellows, and I think my (much younger) friend in IM residency also moonlighted in VA urgent care?

But very good advice not to count on it. Part of the reason I didn't do it was because I was so tired of working resident hours and couldn't fathom working anymore. Plus I had two kids.
 
(And you can't forget the fact that $500K is 2 houses. There is a lot of stress that comes from basically paying 3 mortgages even if it is easy to pay off)
And at least a mortgage you can do a short sale and walk away from!


Physicians are in the top 1%.

Physicians who make 7 figures are in the top 1% of the top 1%.

(approximately)

Not really. As crazy as it sounds, few doctors actually reach the top 1%. You are still the 99%. And frankly, even the neurosurgeons are still the 99% in terms of social class: medicine is an earned income job, you still get paid by the hour/task.

The 1% in physicians is usually limited to two income households or surgical specialties. Even then, not for sure.

Nationwide:
Top 1% for an individual is ~350k
Top 1% for household is well higher. 670k.

http://taxpolicycenter.org/numbers/displayatab.cfm?DocID=3948
 
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It didnt pass this time. The point is, one of the most liberal presidents in the current political environment to hold the white house attempted to cap it. Unless Sanders win(and even then that would only give safety for a max of 8 years) its only going to get more conservative from here on out. Do you feel safe relying on the program lasting that long? I bet people who took out private student loans when they were dischargeable in bankruptcy thought they would be grandfathered in. They werent.
They are still dischargeable under certain circumstances. None the less, that was a change in the bankruptcy code. PSLF and the income driven repayment schemes are in the MPNs and therefore bindable by contract. There's no precedent of that changing, regardless of the pointless Sanders issue.
 
I disagree with this. Many Sanders supporters will just stay home if he doesnt get the nomination. I think most Clinton die hards have been into politics for a while and hold their nose to vote for Sanders when the other option is either Trump Cruz or Rubio. And low voter turnout favors republicans.
Maybe for the youth vote, which has been historically low anyway. But more Dems are likely to vote for a moderate Dem than extrene left Dem in the general historically. None of it matters anyway as he won't get the nomination because with the exception of youth voters, he just doesn't appeal that broadly even to Dems.
 
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@yale just to add in another perspective. I just left an interview and my interviewer said that she believes med school is not worth it if it costs more than $250K (I've heard people say not to go over $200-250K plenty of times before). Granted she works only with underserved patients and she has only been an attending for 5 years, but, yeah, many older docs seem to think taking $300K+ is a lot crazier than most pre-meds do.
 
@yale just to add in another perspective. I just left an interview and my interviewer said that she believes med school is not worth it if it costs more than $250K (I've heard people say not to go over $200-250K plenty of times before). Granted she works only with underserved patients and she has only been an attending for 5 years, but, yeah, many older docs seem to think taking $300K+ is a lot crazier than most pre-meds do.

I was playing around with the numbers and I wonder if this is the magic number where it is feasible to go through residency without increasing your indebtedness.
 
People need to stop spreading nonsense on SDN. Today, the truth is if you want to become a millionaire, you are out of luck regardless of what field you go into. Unless you are born into extreme wealth, it is highly improbable that you will get there by pursuing any sort of employment.

Last time I checked, the term millionaire refers to net assets, not annual income. Plenty of people who make far less than physicians manage to save enough money to become millionaires.
 
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I think enough Hillary supporters would vote Republican before they would Sanders, so even if he did get the party nomination I would be surprised if he were elected.
Polls don't back you up on that.
 
The interest is actually tax-deductible for residents

Actually, interest is only tax deductible up to $2500. Period. If you make over a certain amount, that cap goes down until it is phased out completely. I paid ~$3500 in student loan interest last year. I only got to deduct $2500 on my taxes this year.

It didn't pass. Plus any current borrowers would grandfather under the original plan.

They are still dischargeable under certain circumstances. None the less, that was a change in the bankruptcy code. PSLF and the income driven repayment schemes are in the MPNs and therefore bindable by contract. There's no precedent of that changing, regardless of the pointless Sanders issue.

Yes, PSLF and the income based repayments are in the MPNs. However, the specific text related to PSLF says:

A Public Service Loan Forgiveness program is also available. Under this program, we will forgive the remaining balance due on your eligible Direct Loan Program loans after you have made 120 payments on those loans under certain repayment plans while you are employed full-time in certain public service jobs. The required 120 payments do not have to be consecutive.

There's a whole lot of wiggle room provided with that wording. They could very, very easily change which public service jobs are available, or which plans you have to be enrolled in, or what counts as 'full time' employment status, or... In addition, it says absolutely nothing about whether or not that remaining balance would be counted as taxable income, which would be a relatively easy change to make given that's the status of the forgiveness for the income driven repayment plans in the first place.

Medical students should not count on getting this benefit, especially because no one has yet qualified for this benefit. And since the first people apply in October of next year, they could very easily change the wording on future promissory notes that current pre-meds will be signing.

Income based repayment IGNORES expenses, including private student loan payments. If your school's financial aid office required you to take out private student loans, you may not have options to postpone or reduce payments (no matter what*), and those payments might be very high, like $1000 a month. Income based repayment plans ignore those kind of payments, as one example.

*Sallie Mae made a friend of mine pay over $1000 a month even though she was unemployed and had no assets, etc. She truly could NOT make the payments and fell behind.

There are other repayment options that are guaranteed to exist for people who are having financial difficulties. Residents can apply and be granted forebearance. Generally, no one recommends that anymore, but you could do it.

You'll earn on average about 65k per year in residency (less in the beginning and more later). You'll probably need at least 5-6 years of living frugally to pay off your student loans if you are lucky.

I'm not sure where you're getting that average from. I'm in a three year program. My salary last year was roughly 52K. My salary this year is slightly higher, probably 54K. I'm pretty sure my salary next year is not going to be 89K to get me an average of 65K per year. People should count on a salary around 50-55K per year. Yes, you will get more as your PGY increases, but you shouldn't count on those being factored in to your loan repayment schemes. That said, the estimate of 5-6 years living frugally is probably accurate.
 
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Ok let me fix this thread.

Loans = bad.

Please vote for Hillary.
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There are other repayment options that are guaranteed to exist for people who are having financial difficulties. Residents can apply and be granted forebearance. Generally, no one recommends that anymore, but you could do it.

Not for PRIVATE student loans, only for federal. There are no guarantees of any help with PRIVATE student loans, which some undergraduate university financial aid offices hand out as part of a student's financial aid package. That's how Sallie Mae gets away with what she does, http://studentdebtcrisis.org/who-is-sallie-mae/
 
I decided to save my Post 9/11 GI Bill until i reach med school and use the pell grant and loans to finish my undergrad so I can escape med school with minimal debt. Hopefully it works out.


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Not for PRIVATE student loans, only for federal. There are no guarantees of any help with PRIVATE student loans, which some undergraduate university financial aid offices hand out as part of a student's financial aid package. That's how Sallie Mae gets away with what she does, http://studentdebtcrisis.org/who-is-sallie-mae/

You were complaining that sallie Mae was requiring payment even though the private student loan was taking up a huge chunk of discretionary income. Sallie Mae, in the past, has done federal student loans. So, if you have some reason you can't make the payment that was assigned via IBR, you can apply for a financial forbearance so you can focus on the private loan.

And for private loans, you need to contact the servicer to work out an arrangement if you can't afford your monthly payment. Our financial aid office emphasized that six ways to Sunday. Again, that is the purpose of a forbearance, and most of the time, any financial department will work with you if you cannot pay your bills so that they get SOME sort of money in the end.
 
I was reading this and I couldn't believe the sarcasm in this med student / Bernie supporter.
 
My parents and grandmother keep harping on loans and going into debt as this horrible thing. I just keep telling them, "This is my passion, and if I need loans to do it, I don't care how much it costs."
 
I didn't read through this thread, but people should be thinking about and worried about loans. It's easy to dismiss loans as not a big deal because 1) every takes them so the amount of debt you're taking on, which can be insane in many cases compared to the average person, is normalized because of who your peers are and 2) it seems like imaginary money because you rarely see most of it and don't have to actually start repaying it until many years down the line.

When you start paying it down, though, it does have an impact on your life. For example, my wife and I are in the process of buying a home and my student loan debt has an impact on our ability to secure a mortgage and the kinds of homes we can look at. It's another few hundred bucks a month that comes out of our budget that we don't have available for things we'd like to be able to buy now. I'm repaying my loans with IBR so the proportion of the payments to our income is actually fairly small, but it will become significant later on and be there for many years to come. And I have a relatively small amount of debt compared to many of the people that I read about here.

So, yes, loans are part of the game, and it's unlikely that you will escape them entirely unless you're independently wealthy, your parents are wealthy, or you manage to get scholarships to pay for the entirety of your education (unlikely). This being an unescapable reality, the best thing you can do is work to take on the smallest amount of debt you possibly can so that you have less to pay further down the line. The whole idea of "paying your loans off as soon as possible once you're an attending" is a nice idea but difficult to execute in practice as I've found by talking with attendings. For people that are married or maybe with children, it can be a long sell to get your family on board to agree to continue living with a resident's lifestyle for years after you're making good money. It's the smart thing to do, sure - no one would deny that - but the smart thing to do can be difficult when other people are along for the ride with you. You may not want to be married, buy a house/condo/apartment, or have kids now, but you will be at a different place in your life when it comes time to pay your loans and may want those things. But by that time the damage is done, so to speak.

Loans aren't the end of the world, but they can and will impact your life down the road. Being aware of that and trying to understand what that impact will be to the best of your ability and given the relatively limited knowledge you have when making these big financial decisions is the best you can do. Some people are focused on going to their "dream school" that costs double what another perfectly fine school does, so for them the cost is irrelevant (though they may regret that decision in the future). Others are more flexible and are able to prioritize the financial realities of debt over the desire to go to school A. You need to figure out what's important to you and be realistic when thinking about the cost of the decisions you're making now.
 
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You were complaining that sallie Mae was requiring payment even though the private student loan was taking up a huge chunk of discretionary income. ..

A lack of income due to unemployment is what I was referring to, NOT "discretionary income." Sallie Mae, is NOT required to reduce or postpone PRIVATE student loan payments for unemployed and/or disabled former students.

...Sallie Mae, in the past, has done federal student loans...

Sallie Mae also does PRIVATE student loans, as well as, federal student loans. Private student loans are also provided to students through university student loan offices as part of a normal financial aid package. I was referring to private loans, not federal loans.

...So, if you have some reason you can't make the payment that was assigned via IBR, you can apply for a financial forbearance so you can focus on the private loan...

Private student loan payments can be very expensive. I know someone who was unemployed and still required to pay $1000 a month in private student loans. That is way too much money for some people to pay regardless of whether or not federal loans are postponed or forbeared or whatever.

...And for private loans, you need to contact the servicer to work out an arrangement if you can't afford your monthly payment.Our financial aid office emphasized that six ways to Sunday...

This is no guarantee that they are willing to help in any way. I know of many people who contacted their private student loan servicer and were simply told, "Sorry, you don't qualify for postponed or reduced payments," or worse, despite being unemployed, having no income, and either few or no assets.

Of course, your financial office emphasized what they did. The school benefits from students taking out gigantic loans to pay for school. That is one way that the school makes money.

...Again, that is the purpose of a forbearance, and most of the time, any financial department will work with you if you cannot pay your bills so that they get SOME sort of money in the end.

I wish this were true, but what has actually happened for some people, is that payment was NOT postponed or reduced, credit was ruined, and when they finally found a job, wages were garnished due to lack of private student loan payments.

And some people had to put up with all or some of this, http://studentdebtcrisis.org/who-is-sallie-mae/

In the end, the lender got MORE MONEY due to late fees, interest, etc.
 
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Some people are focused on going to their "dream school" that costs double what another perfectly fine school does, so for them the cost is irrelevant (though they may regret that decision in the future).
One thing I've noticed lately as I think about this is that.... most of my favorite physician-authors and most of the physicians-professors at both dream and not-dream schools? Never mention where they went to medical school in their bio-blurbs (in book jackets or school websites). They might say where they went to residency or fellowship, or even just say where they're currently an adjunct. But unless they actually went to a MASSIVELY name-branded school like Harvard? It just doesn't seem to come up. This is just the product of my own sampling, but I'd suggest people look around at this for themselves.
 
Because owing money to the federal government or private companies/banks sucks, and interest increases, so you end up paying more. It also means longer before you can invest your money into gaining stability and what you want.
 

Ok, seriously, there is no need to get your panties in a twist about this. Your post was not clear, I didn't understand it, you've made yourself abundantly clear. But do not presume that I don't know what I'm talking about either. I have a private student loan. I know how it works. I am in forbearance and don't have to pay $1000 each month despite having a high principal. The vast majority of loan servicers have something in place to allow you to enter forbearance if you are unemployed or disabled. You may have to push for it, you may have to jump through hoops, but there is probably something in place, and knowing what that is BEFORE you sign your MPN will serve you well in the long run.
 
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I didn't read through this thread, but people should be thinking about and worried about loans. It's easy to dismiss loans as not a big deal because 1) every takes them so the amount of debt you're taking on, which can be insane in many cases compared to the average person, is normalized because of who your peers are and 2) it seems like imaginary money because you rarely see most of it and don't have to actually start repaying it until many years down the line.

When you start paying it down, though, it does have an impact on your life. For example, my wife and I are in the process of buying a home and my student loan debt has an impact on our ability to secure a mortgage and the kinds of homes we can look at. It's another few hundred bucks a month that comes out of our budget that we don't have available for things we'd like to be able to buy now. I'm repaying my loans with IBR so the proportion of the payments to our income is actually fairly small, but it will become significant later on and be there for many years to come. And I have a relatively small amount of debt compared to many of the people that I read about here.

So, yes, loans are part of the game, and it's unlikely that you will escape them entirely unless you're independently wealthy, your parents are wealthy, or you manage to get scholarships to pay for the entirety of your education (unlikely). This being an unescapable reality, the best thing you can do is work to take on the smallest amount of debt you possibly can so that you have less to pay further down the line. The whole idea of "paying your loans off as soon as possible once you're an attending" is a nice idea but difficult to execute in practice as I've found by talking with attendings. For people that are married or maybe with children, it can be a long sell to get your family on board to agree to continue living with a resident's lifestyle for years after you're making good money. It's the smart thing to do, sure - no one would deny that - but the smart thing to do can be difficult when other people are along for the ride with you. You may not want to be married, buy a house/condo/apartment, or have kids now, but you will be at a different place in your life when it comes time to pay your loans and may want those things. But by that time the damage is done, so to speak.

Loans aren't the end of the world, but they can and will impact your life down the road. Being aware of that and trying to understand what that impact will be to the best of your ability and given the relatively limited knowledge you have when making these big financial decisions is the best you can do. Some people are focused on going to their "dream school" that costs double what another perfectly fine school does, so for them the cost is irrelevant (though they may regret that decision in the future). Others are more flexible and are able to prioritize the financial realities of debt over the desire to go to school A. You need to figure out what's important to you and be realistic when thinking about the cost of the decisions you're making now.

Thank you for your answer. It is amazing to observe how loans can affect one's everyday life in such a way I never thought of before. However, if you yourself go back in a time capsule to your last year of HS, and were choosing between attending Harvard/state flagship and a lesser known college that offers a full scholarship for both college and med school, which would be most tempting? I think that you do strike bullseye concerning the reality of money, but money can't buy happiness.
 
Thank you for your answer. It is amazing to observe how loans can affect one's everyday life in such a way I never thought of before. However, if you yourself go back in a time capsule to your last year of HS, and were choosing between attending Harvard/state flagship and a lesser known college that offers a full scholarship for both college and med school, which would be most tempting? I think that you do strike bullseye concerning the reality of money, but money can't buy happiness.
Was there seriously no one with the name yale already?
 
Thank you for your answer. It is amazing to observe how loans can affect one's everyday life in such a way I never thought of before. However, if you yourself go back in a time capsule to your last year of HS, and were choosing between attending Harvard/state flagship and a lesser known college that offers a full scholarship for both college and med school, which would be most tempting? I think that you do strike bullseye concerning the reality of money, but money can't buy happiness.

Well, I followed the money. I had limited choices for college because I didn't realize there was a "game" to be played with respect to college admissions, so I applied to two schools. I went to the one that gave me more money. Consequently, I graduated from undergrad with <$10k in debt.

I did the same thing for med school: I followed the money and went to the best school that I could for the price. I still took on a lot of debt, but overall I got out of the whole process with about $120k in loans.

I had to make these decisions because, while my parents did help me out in many ways - some significant - I was ultimately responsible for the cost of my education. My parents were up front with me about this before I even started college.

And you know what? I was perfectly happy at both places. I got a great education, met some great people, and had fun. Were they the schools that I would label "dream schools" or otherwise choose if I had the ability to choose any school to go to? No, probably not. But it worked out, and I'm happy with the experiences that I had.

I don't buy this whole belief that "you must go to school A or you will be unhappy."I think that's immaturity talking. The reality is that for medical school at least, the quality of your training will be more or less the same because it's so standardized, and you will be able to find happiness no matter where you go if you make that your priority. I simply don't believe that anyone would be truly unhappy or have their life trajectory altered by virtue of the fact that they didn't get into their "dream school" that they've decided is their "dream school" based on what are almost certainly very superficial reasons. College is a little different because the quality of education and the opportunities available can vary quite a bit. But, in my opinion, I think those things must be weighed against the reality of what you are sacrificing financially when choosing among schools.

Going to Harvard or UCLA or whatever school you substitute does not guarantee success or happiness despite what many people seem to believe. Ultimately, you are there to learn and develop into an autonomous, intelligent adult that can use their brain to think about and make conclusions about the world. It does not require Harvard or UCLA or whatever to do those things.
 
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As a ex-finance career person, I think people on SDN overstate the terribleness of med school debt. There's no doubt that it's better to have less debt than more, but the current state of PAYE and PSLF is very favorable. There's also no forseeable end to PAYE/PSLF yet, despite some rumors. In it's current state, a person with a 4 year residency could stand to forgive over ~100k in loans by the end of the 10 years.

Also I'm not sure where you came up with $5k/mo repayment for a 200k loan. Even at 10 years, that should only max out at ~$3600. On a resident salary, it would be capped to like $400/mo on PAYE.


That's not quite how taxes/loan repayment works
Here's the thing- if I play the odds that PSLF will be around and am wrong, the interest will cost me many, many thousands and will make my loans unbearably large (I'm going to owe 400k post-residency). It's not a chance worth taking.
 
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I agree, but the problem is that there are no cheap options anymore, hahaha

I've been majorly stressing out about this debt, and I've officially decided that $320K pre-interest is my absolute limit. The 5 schools that have accepted me all put me a good deal over that ($360-370Kish). I have 3 IIs left that will give me a shot at my limit, if I don't get into one of those I am walking away (or potentially moving to Texas and taking a longer road to med school). And I already feel so much less burdened knowing that I have that limit, haha

You're right, sometimes there are no good options. With the exception of some unusual situations, I'm not of the opinion that people should forgo medical training simply because of the cost of they are truly invested in the process and want to becoming physicians. It's all about making the best choice you can. Sometimes, the "best" choice may not be a particularly good one.
 
I decided to save my Post 9/11 GI Bill until i reach med school and use the pell grant and loans to finish my undergrad so I can escape med school with minimal debt. Hopefully it works out.

I would be very careful with this plan. Not every medical school works with the Yellow Ribbon program so make sure you do your research because you could still end up with a lot of student loans. Also from what I can tell some of the schools that do participate in the Yellow Ribbon don't do enough to cover the full cost of school (especially if you're OOS).

Personally I managed to get my GI Bill to cover four full years, 11 semesters, of university. I figured graduating with no debt and a decent amount in savings was a good option.
 
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People need to stop spreading nonsense on SDN. Today, the truth is if you want to become a millionaire, you are out of luck regardless of what field you go into. Unless you are born into extreme wealth, it is highly improbable that you will get there by pursuing any sort of employment.
I would have to try extremely hard to not become a millionaire as a physician, even in primary care.
 
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Another huge reason to fear the debt is because it binds you to medicine. There's many I've known that wanted out but couldn't, because their loans were too great and they'd never be able to pay them off with whatever terrible job their BS could get them. It basically locks you in once you sign on the dotted line.
 
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Another huge reason to fear the debt is because it binds you to medicine. There's many I've known that wanted out but couldn't, because their loans were too great and they'd never be able to pay them off with whatever terrible job their BS could get them. It basically locks you in once you sign on the dotted line.

Yes. This exactly. I have only known one or two people who had the courage to walk away with a mortgage's worth of debt because they knew it wasn't right for them.
 
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Yes. This exactly. I have only known one or two people who had the courage to walk away with a mortgage's worth of debt because they knew it wasn't right for them.

What are the exit opportunities like if you know? I heard of some MD's with or without residency going into pharma, or working at biotech oriented hedge fund, private equity, and venture capital firms. However, they were probably the top 1% of their class anyway in terms of intelligence, so I don't know where that would leave the average or above average medical student.
 
Also, where is our tuition money going exactly??? My state school's tuition rose by 3x-4x since the 90s!
 
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What are the exit opportunities like if you know? I heard of some MD's with or without residency going into pharma, or working at biotech oriented hedge fund, private equity, and venture capital firms. However, they were probably the top 1% of their class anyway in terms of intelligence, so I don't know where that would leave the average or above average medical student.
Most MDs can't work their way into finance unless they also had an Ivy or similar undergrad. Pharma is possible, but usually they want you to have an internship. Here's a whole site about options that also covers the sorts of credentials one needs to get out of medicine: http://www.nonclinicaljobs.com/

The real problem, however, comes with those that are in their second or third year and want out. Like, basically they just have to suck it up at that point. Too close to give up the credential and feel okay about it, too deep in debt to walk away.
 
Unfortunately, I've actually begun having panic attacks for the first time in my life at the thought of the debt- I cannot fathom that kind of money. So for me, the psychological impact of the debt outweighs my love for medicine at a certain point. I'm comfortable with $320K because that is what my state school would put me at and there are a good amount of other students going into that much debt (so it feels less risky). I think going above that would be too psychologically unhealthy for me, so I need to be mature enough to back away.
You'll be able to pay down the debt, but just be sure that this is what you want to do. The average physician will earn millions more than their average non-physician counterpart over a lifetime. The real trouble I had was the stress that came along with the idea of failure. Bombing one test, failing one semester, and my life was financially over.
 
Facilities and administration, mostly.
I am a pretty techy guy, but even I get a little annoyed when I see millions being spent on simulations and virtual dissections. The older docs had no problem learning without fancy tech like that.

Also, way too many deans vice deans assistant deans and supporting staff so I totally agree. There should not be more admins than professors.

Most MDs can't work their way into finance unless they also had an Ivy or similar undergrad. Pharma is possible, but usually they want you to have an internship. Here's a whole site about options that also covers the sorts of credentials one needs to get out of medicine: http://www.nonclinicaljobs.com/

The real problem, however, comes with those that are in their second or third year and want out. Like, basically they just have to suck it up at that point. Too close to give up the credential and feel okay about it, too deep in debt to walk away.
Man that is sad. Has any med students ever had luck using the M1 summer for a finance/pharma internship? Maybe even using the thesis requirement at some med schools to get that internship experience?
 
I am a pretty techy guy, but even I get a little annoyed when I see millions being spent on simulations and virtual dissections. The older docs had no problem learning without fancy tech like that.

Also, way too many deans vice deans assistant deans and supporting staff so I totally agree. There should not be more admins than professors.


Man that is sad. Has any med students ever had luck using the M1 summer for a finance/pharma internship? Maybe even using the thesis requirement at some med schools to get that internship experience?
None that I know of, but there's probably a few out there somewhere.
 
I would be very careful with this plan. Not every medical school works with the Yellow Ribbon program so make sure you do your research because you could still end up with a lot of student loans. Also from what I can tell some of the schools that do participate in the Yellow Ribbon don't do enough to cover the full cost of school (especially if you're OOS).

Personally I managed to get my GI Bill to cover four full years, 11 semesters, of university. I figured graduating with no debt and a decent amount in savings was a good option.

I do know that I will probably end up with some amount of loan debt by the time I am done. I saved my GI bill because medical school is a bigger expense than my undergrad and the GI bill will pay out more for med school than it will for undergrad for example lets say my undergrad is 14k per academic year and the GI Bill pays a max of I believe 21k per I am maxing out the benefit by using it for medical school if that makes sense.
 
I do know that I will probably end up with some amount of loan debt by the time I am done. I saved my GI bill because medical school is a bigger expense than my undergrad and the GI bill will pay out more for med school than it will for undergrad for example lets say my undergrad is 14k per academic year and the GI Bill pays a max of I believe 21k per I am maxing out the benefit by using it for medical school if that makes sense.

I agree, especially if your university isn't super expensive.
 
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