Why didn't you rank a program?

[KidPharmD]

Looking at the match stats thread, I see a lot of people who didn't rank several programs. I have a hard time with the concept of "I would rather scramble/not be a resident than be at this program."
I even saw someone who interviewed at 4, ranked 1, and didn't match.

I was wondering, what was it about a program that you didn't know until interviews (because, you bothered to apply) that made you decide not to rank them?

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[GoldfishPharmD]

I didn't rank 1 program last year because of the vibe I got. All they asked me was negative questions during the interview, when I asked about the success of their residents and going on to do a PGY-2 the program director flat out said that if I want to do a PGY-2 then I should probably go to a program that has the PGY-2 in that specialty, and I learned that they basically didn't give their residents any autonomy.

Additionally, I heard about past residents quitting, so I decided this place wasn't for me. I didn't end up matching, and I had to scramble. I found the place that was the right fit for me. My program doesn't have any PGY-2s, and you know what? I matched into the area I wanted. All the other past residents from my program was also able to get PGY-2s, so I think that's cruddy fro the program director to tell a potential candidate that.

Overall, I just really did not like the feeling this program gave off. Their residents looked absolutely miserable at the interview as well. Not one really looked happy to be there. I learned that they ended up losing another resident this year as well.

 

[Dred Pirate]

From the perspective of a resident preceptor - we are a fairly new program - 4 years old - but have never had to go further than 4 deep in our match to match our 2 residents each year - and this year we had 70 applicants - unless you would rather search for a job in retail, or go to middle of nowhere - not a good idea to not rank a place. If you have your heart set on a residency - you should rank every place that gives you the opportunity unless you are just absolutely dead set on not going there. It is sooooooo competetive out there - do not think you are ever "better than the program". You will get a harsh dose of reality.

I would hope you wouldn't be set on a residency and figured you would have a chance in the scramble, it is called that for a reason, the scramble is a last ditch effort to get a residency. I really hope you all that didn't rank a program had a very very good reason not to,

 

[Rx2014Grad]

Looking at the match stats thread, I see a lot of people who didn't rank several programs. I have a hard time with the concept of "I would rather scramble/not be a resident than be at this program."
I even saw someone who interviewed at 4, ranked 1, and didn't match.

I was wondering, what was it about a program that you didn't know until interviews (because, you bothered to apply) that made you decide not to rank them?

That was me that interviewed at 4 and only ranked 1. The reason I did not rank the other programs is because of several factors.

The first program I interviewed with did not offer a teaching certificate for the future residency class which is why I wanted to do a residency at that place to begin with. The next program that I interviewed with the resident spoke terribly of the program during lunch. I did not want to spend a year hating my life. And the final program I did not rank was simply I did not feel I would have fit in with the staff since it was such a small hospital. I, myself, would rather work in retail than be stuck at a residency that I do not like for a year. If I don't like any programs in the scramble, I will not apply to them.

To each his/her own...

 

[Doc Hawaii]

FYI,
The place where I intern has/had two PGY-1 spots (and a single PGY-2 spot). Heard they received over 130 applications for the two PGY-1 spots.....

One of the residency directors (at a different site) said that PGY-3s are coming soon, and that PGY-1s will not be considered 'enough' for clinical positions....

 

[EML9255]

FYI,
The place where I intern has/had two PGY-1 spots (and a single PGY-2 spot). Heard they received over 130 applications for the two PGY-1 spots.....

One of the residency directors (at a different site) said that PGY-3s are coming soon, and that PGY-1s will not be considered 'enough' for clinical positions....

Wow that made me want to barf hahaha pgy3 whatttt I don't see it

 

[GoldfishPharmD]

I really hope not that's not true.

 

[KARM12]

That was me that interviewed at 4 and only ranked 1. The reason I did not rank the other programs is because of several factors.

The first program I interviewed with did not offer a teaching certificate for the future residency class which is why I wanted to do a residency at that place to begin with. The next program that I interviewed with the resident spoke terribly of the program during lunch. I did not want to spend a year hating my life. And the final program I did not rank was simply I did not feel I would have fit in with the staff since it was such a small hospital. I, myself, would rather work in retail than be stuck at a residency that I do not like for a year. If I don't like any programs in the scramble, I will not apply to them.

To each his/her own...

I think a teaching certificate is of very little value in the real world. You can still get clinical/academic jobs without it. There is no standardization of a teaching certification, so it will vary across systems greatly. Why did you apply to these places originally if they did not have what you are looking for? I wouldn't judge a program by one resident...we've had some bad eggs in the over 50 residents I've precepted...

 

[BeastPharmD]

From the perspective of a resident preceptor - we are a fairly new program - 4 years old - but have never had to go further than 4 deep in our match to match our 2 residents each year - and this year we had 70 applicants - unless you would rather search for a job in retail, or go to middle of nowhere - not a good idea to not rank a place. If you have your heart set on a residency - you should rank every place that gives you the opportunity unless you are just absolutely dead set on not going there. It is sooooooo competetive out there - do not think you are ever "better than the program". You will get a harsh dose of reality.

I would hope you wouldn't be set on a residency and figured you would have a chance in the scramble, it is called that for a reason, the scramble is a last ditch effort to get a residency. I really hope you all that didn't rank a program had a very very good reason not to,

It may be competitive out there as an applicant, but I think you are missing the point that it's a two way street. Programs will compete for the best residents and that's exactly the reason why I did not rank about 50% of the programs I interiwed at. I felt that I was not only better than the other interviewees I was with for the day, but in some cases that I was too good for the program. Those programs didn't do enough to make me feel like they were going to be committed to doing all that they could to make my time worth it. It's a different feeling when you have worked so hard to be the best you can be, in addition to being naturally gifted, and know that, no matter how hard they try or how well they interview, other candidates will never be able to reach the level you are at. There was never a shred of doubt I would not match with my first rank, much less not match at all.

You might think that I sound arrogant or cocky, but the truth is that there are other people like me in this world, people who are so passionate, so hard working, so intelligent, never settling for " good enough." And we aren't arrogant or cocky, in fact, we're the people who have tirelessly helped you, and the entire profession, get to where you are. We are the people who advance things, we're the people you read about in journals and magazines, we're the people you admire and look up to and aspire to be like.

To any applicant out there, work to find out who you are as a person. Learn all you can from your preceptors, but don't let them tell you who you have to be, the path you have to take, or even how many or which programs you have to rank. Only you know your true potential and only you know the best way to get there. If that means ranking a program that won't give you EVERYTHING you need just so you can "match" and "not have to scrambe", you aren't' being true to yourself and you need to do some soul searching to find what you want out of the short time that you have on this earth, because if that's the case, I would say you're doing a residency just to be like everyone else and not because it's what you want to do.

-Beast

 

[GoldfishPharmD]

Wow.....

 

[nervoushabits]

I think my personal strategy to ranking programs was following the thought "would I rather not be a resident than be a resident at this institution?"

Never, ever, ever did I once use "Would I rather be a resident at this institution than be a staff pharmacist at XYZ pharmacy?" There is NOTHING wrong with working retail or being a community pharmacist. It is part of our profession, and I think it really bothers me that people see this as an alternative or a last resort option for a job in a lot of cases. With the way that pharmacy is going now and how the job market is, you would be lucky to work for a chain pharmacy in some areas. Pharmacists in all aspects of the profession are turning more clinical in nature, just in different and varied ways. Just because a pharmacist works in a community setting doesn't mean they are any less prepared for being a pharmacist than the rest of us, and if you go into community pharmacy because you didn't match or what have you, you should be grateful and proud to be the pharmacist that you are, because you still have your pharmacy degree and you're still able to help people everyday.

-steps off soapbox-

Now, back to the original reason for replying in this thread, the question of "would I rather not be a resident than be a resident at this institution?" This was a hard decision for me during one of my application cycles. There were a lot of factors that I took into consideration: my potential specialty, job opportunity, and acceptance of my current career path. The latter was the most important. The program that I eventually matched with was very warm and open to my community pharmacy background, the other program was not so much. It wasn't that the people weren't friendly, I just felt that my current experience was frowned upon. I ended up ranking everyone I interviewed with, but I almost went all out and suicide ranked with only the one program that I felt a large connection with. Nothing against the other programs, but I knew the one that I wanted and I was really set on doing my training at that institution.

 

[confettiflyer]

I think a teaching certificate is of very little value in the real world. You can still get clinical/academic jobs without it.

Yeah, it's a neat little certificate and might be a talking point, that's about it. It's about equivalent to a gold star on the wall next to your name in elementary school.

 

[kmoogs]

Yeah, it's a neat little certificate and might be a talking point, that's about it. It's about equivalent to a gold star on the wall next to your name in elementary school.

QFT

 

[Chillz87]

From the perspective of a resident preceptor - we are a fairly new program - 4 years old - but have never had to go further than 4 deep in our match to match our 2 residents each year - and this year we had 70 applicants - unless you would rather search for a job in retail, or go to middle of nowhere - not a good idea to not rank a place. If you have your heart set on a residency - you should rank every place that gives you the opportunity unless you are just absolutely dead set on not going there. It is sooooooo competetive out there - do not think you are ever "better than the program". You will get a harsh dose of reality.

I would hope you wouldn't be set on a residency and figured you would have a chance in the scramble, it is called that for a reason, the scramble is a last ditch effort to get a residency. I really hope you all that didn't rank a program had a very very good reason not to,

For me, residency is not a checklist. From the perspective of a resident, we take a huge paycut, have enormous student loans, and sacrifice a year (a very grueling year at that) to better ourselves and to learn. If I do not feel a particular residency program fits me well or is invested in giving me a good experience, I would rather not rank them. That's just me though

 

[Carboxide]

I didn't rank one program out of 7 interviews. I chose not to rank it because I felt the fit was bad; the program was fine, but I left feeling like I did NOT want to be there. I didn't feel too uncomfortable about not ranking it because ranking to your 7th spot is extremely unlikely anyways, if you look at the stats. In fact, about 80% of spots are a 1st or 2nd choice match.

 

[BenJammin]

As anti-residency as I am, I still don't know why you guys would rank a program you have even one question about. You're taking a 66% paycut from retail while your student loans pile up and the stress of rotations is greater so I would expect you all to make a smart decision.

 

[rxlea]

As anti-residency as I am, I still don't know why you guys would rank a program you have even one question about. You're taking a 66% paycut from retail while your student loans pile up and the stress of rotations is greater so I would expect you all to make a smart decision.

Sometimes you just need a stepping stone.

 

[Princess Cupcake]

It may be competitive out there as an applicant, but I think you are missing the point that it's a two way street. Programs will compete for the best residents and that's exactly the reason why I did not rank about 50% of the programs I interiwed at. I felt that I was not only better than the other interviewees I was with for the day, but in some cases that I was too good for the program. Those programs didn't do enough to make me feel like they were going to be committed to doing all that they could to make my time worth it. It's a different feeling when you have worked so hard to be the best you can be, in addition to being naturally gifted, and know that, no matter how hard they try or how well they interview, other candidates will never be able to reach the level you are at. There was never a shred of doubt I would not match with my first rank, much less not match at all.

You might think that I sound arrogant or cocky, but the truth is that there are other people like me in this world, people who are so passionate, so hard working, so intelligent, never settling for " good enough." And we aren't arrogant or cocky, in fact, we're the people who have tirelessly helped you, and the entire profession, get to where you are. We are the people who advance things, we're the people you read about in journals and magazines, we're the people you admire and look up to and aspire to be like.

To any applicant out there, work to find out who you are as a person. Learn all you can from your preceptors, but don't let them tell you who you have to be, the path you have to take, or even how many or which programs you have to rank. Only you know your true potential and only you know the best way to get there. If that means ranking a program that won't give you EVERYTHING you need just so you can "match" and "not have to scrambe", you aren't' being true to yourself and you need to do some soul searching to find what you want out of the short time that you have on this earth, because if that's the case, I would say you're doing a residency just to be like everyone else and not because it's what you want to do.

-Beast

...Sounds like someone has a case of "Lucy syndrome": http://www.huffingtonpost.com/wait-but-why/generation-y-unhappy_b_3930620.html

 

[Rx2014Grad]

I think a teaching certificate is of very little value in the real world. You can still get clinical/academic jobs without it. There is no standardization of a teaching certification, so it will vary across systems greatly. Why did you apply to these places originally if they did not have what you are looking for? I wouldn't judge a program by one resident...we've had some bad eggs in the over 50 residents I've precepted...

I get asked why I didn't rank the programs that I interviewed with and I get grilled for answering with my opinion. If you would have read the original post completely, you would have seen that the teaching certificate was listed on the site but during the interview process I found out that was no longer the case. You're right, for the most part it is just a little certificate, but to have something listed on your website and nopt include it in the program sent up a little red flag. As minute as the flag was, it was still a flag. I'm not going to spend my time at any institution, residency or staffing position, if I have any doubts about it at all. This is my life. If I didn't want to do anything other than residency, I would have applied to 20 programs and ranked all of the ones I interviewed with. The only way I want to do a residency is if it is a perfect fit for me. If it is not, I will go work else where and make 3 times as much. I'm not opposed to working in any aspect of pharmacy like I see most of you are.

 

[BeastPharmD]

I get asked why I didn't rank the programs that I interviewed with and I get grilled for answering with my opinion. If you would have read the original post completely, you would have seen that the teaching certificate was listed on the site but during the interview process I found out that was no longer the case. You're right, for the most part it is just a little certificate, but to have something listed on your website and nopt include it in the program sent up a little red flag. As minute as the flag was, it was still a flag. I'm not going to spend my time at any institution, residency or staffing position, if I have any doubts about it at all. This is my life. If I didn't want to do anything other than residency, I would have applied to 20 programs and ranked all of the ones I interviewed with. The only way I want to do a residency is if it is a perfect fit for me. If it is not, I will go work else where and make 3 times as much. I'm not opposed to working in any aspect of pharmacy like I see most of you are.

Amen, brother. We both have the same philosophy. Lots of folks on here think that getting any old residency will be the answer to solving all of their intellectual, skill based, and personal deficits. You can put gold plating on a piece of crap, but on the inside, it's always going to be a piece of crap.

 

[PharmBeanz]

My bottom line was that retail ain't goin no where. If I ended up at a place and didn't like it, its a year, I gain some experience, I have a few more options on the table, and if I don't want anything to do with clinical pharmacy, a year of residency certainly makes me a better candidate for a retail position.

I guess what I feel is that rarely in life are you going to find something that is the 100% PERFECT fit for you (even in a retail position as an alternative to residency, do you LOVE everything about it?). I'm not saying that people should be expected to ignore things that are glaring red signs like residents leaving the program, rude directors/staff, tired and overworked residents, etc. But something like discrepancy over what was online vs what I was told in person? Eh, it happened to me and I still ranked the place because just like I'm human and make mistakes I expect a program does the same. It's not because I want a residency soooo bad, it's because in my world its not a big deal. For me how they addressed my mentioning the error was more important than the error itself. Plus half these places have sites they don't update often or they could have even missed their error. To me its not a reason to completely cross a place off my list but again its not about desperation, its about having a realistic expectation and understanding of what I want.

But I grew up in the hood so what do I know.

 

[confettiflyer]

One of the residency directors (at a different site) said that PGY-3s are coming soon

lololol, that's a funny opinion that one person had.

But kudos to that director if they can convince a PGY-2 grad that they're underqualified and pay them 50-70% of full salary and eke out a year of labor from them.

I hope they get a cut of the money they saved the hospital, woooweee.

 

[pharm B]

lololol, that's a funny opinion that one person had.

http://www.midwestern.edu/programs-...ams/pgy23-infectious-diseases-fellowship.html
PGY-2/3 programs are already on the market.

http://www.henryford.com/body_program.cfm?id=54220

This is a 2 year post-PGY-1 fellowship in ID.

These programs are the minority; slowly but surely they might start to creep up in numbers.

 

[confettiflyer]

http://www.midwestern.edu/programs-...ams/pgy23-infectious-diseases-fellowship.html
PGY-2/3 programs are already on the market.

http://www.henryford.com/body_program.cfm?id=54220

This is a 2 year post-PGY-1 fellowship in ID.

These programs are the minority; slowly but surely they might start to creep up in numbers.

Jesus Christmas, what the hell is that. At this point, when you consider the time it takes to go through training, it becomes the opportunity cost of a physician with much MUCH less pay.

PGY-1 was already a stretch. There's really no reason for a PGY-3 to even exist, period.

But again, kudos to these places for being able to obtain willing slave labor.

 

[GoldfishPharmD]

There's no way I'm doing a 3rd year.

 

[KidPharmD]

All the presented "PGY-3" programs are fellowships. This is not the same thing as a 3rd year residency. Fellowships are typically 2 to 3 years and have been around as long as residencies. We have a 3 year fellowship program at our institution that is as old as the residency (30+ years). Fellowships are heavily research, not practice, focused. These aren't even required for most MD specialties. The only a fellowship would ever be required would be if academia/research gets saturated with otherwise qualified PGY2 graduates. This hasn't happened yet.

 

[nervoushabits]

I had a mentor of mine say that PGY2 was a dying breed. I can't decide if that's the truth or not anymore...

 

[GoldfishPharmD]

I had a mentor of mine say that PGY2 was a dying breed. I can't decide if that's the truth or not anymore...

Why did they say this?

 

[QuietType]

I had a mentor of mine say that PGY2 was a dying breed. I can't decide if that's the truth or not anymore...

The number of both PGY2 Programs AND positions have increased every year for the past five years. In fact, they've doubled in that time frame.

Somebody's getting something out of the PGY2 programs!

PGY2 Programs & Positions (per ASHP statistics)

PGY2 Programs per year

# % Delta(from 2009)​

2009 311
2010 358 15.1%
2011 410 31.8%
2012 468 50.5%
2013 537 72.7%
2014 617 98.4%
PGY2 Positions per year

# % Delta(from 2009)​

2009 387
2010 449 16.0%
2011 524 35.4%
2012 590 52.5%
2013 695 79.6%
2014 795 105.4%

 

[nervoushabits]

Why did they say this?

No idea. I think it's because a lot of our PGY-1 residents have had a lot of success finding positions within their areas of interest. -shrugs- Your guess is as good as mine.

 

[Dred Pirate]

It may be competitive out there as an applicant, but I think you are missing the point that it's a two way street. Programs will compete for the best residents and that's exactly the reason why I did not rank about 50% of the programs I interiwed at. I felt that I was not only better than the other interviewees I was with for the day, but in some cases that I was too good for the program. Those programs didn't do enough to make me feel like they were going to be committed to doing all that they could to make my time worth it. It's a different feeling when you have worked so hard to be the best you can be, in addition to being naturally gifted, and know that, no matter how hard they try or how well they interview, other candidates will never be able to reach the level you are at. There was never a shred of doubt I would not match with my first rank, much less not match at all.

You might think that I sound arrogant or cocky, but the truth is that there are other people like me in this world, people who are so passionate, so hard working, so intelligent, never settling for " good enough." And we aren't arrogant or cocky, in fact, we're the people who have tirelessly helped you, and the entire profession, get to where you are. We are the people who advance things, we're the people you read about in journals and magazines, we're the people you admire and look up to and aspire to be like.

To any applicant out there, work to find out who you are as a person. Learn all you can from your preceptors, but don't let them tell you who you have to be, the path you have to take, or even how many or which programs you have to rank. Only you know your true potential and only you know the best way to get there. If that means ranking a program that won't give you EVERYTHING you need just so you can "match" and "not have to scrambe", you aren't' being true to yourself and you need to do some soul searching to find what you want out of the short time that you have on this earth, because if that's the case, I would say you're doing a residency just to be like everyone else and not because it's what you want to do.

-Beast

You sound arrogant and cocky and I would NEVER EVER want to work with you and feel sorry for anyone that has to. NO ONE IS BETTER than a program, I am not saying all programs are great (they are not), but to ever have the attitude that you are better than something will set you up for failure in your life. I have seen it over and over

 

[GoldfishPharmD]

You sound arrogant and cocky and I would NEVER EVER want to work with you and feel sorry for anyone that has to. NO ONE IS BETTER than a program, I am not saying all programs are great (they are not), but to ever have the attitude that you are better than something will set you up for failure in your life. I have seen it over and over

I think he's trolling (I hope so anyways).

 

[Dred Pirate]

I think he's trolling (I hope so anyways).

You know I don't think they are - unfortunately I have seen a lot of people that grew up getting everything on a silver platter (including a lot in my class 11 years ago) that feel they are entitled to everything - these are the people that I see fail miserably once they get in the real world.