why do anesthesiologist make so much money?

[Californian]

why do anesthesiologist make so much money compare to other doctors?
i reserached it they make about avg. 200k-250k. and some doctors who barely make 60k-100k.

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[militarymd]

Why do spine surgeons make even more money? Especially when none of the patients ever get any better?

 

[toughlife]

why do anesthesiologist make so much money compare to other doctors?
i reserached it they make about avg. 200k-250k. and some doctors who barely make 60k-100k.

Why do dentists and oral and maxillofacial surgeons make too much money when they are not saving any lives?

 

[Arch Guillotti]

Why do spine surgeons make even more money? Especially when none of the patients ever get any better?

lol ain't that the truth, they just end up at Tenesmas office.

 

[ecCA1]

What's the prob, girls?

Are you really that upset with your lot that you have to waste time getting multiple accounts on a doctor's forum?

Isn't it enough to be able to buy your playstations and live half-way high on the hog?

If you had the talent and the ballz, you'd done what we did.

But you didn't.

And all the bile you spew here won't change for a second the fact that you're still just NURSES with a buncha intitials piled up behind your name to make yourself feel a bit more like one of us.

 

[militarymd]

What's the prob, girls?

Are you really that upset with your lot that you have to waste time getting multiple accounts on a doctor's forum?

Isn't it enough to be able to buy your playstations and live half-way high on the hog?

If you had the talent and the ballz, you'd done what we did.

But you didn't.

And all the bile you spew here won't change for a second the fact that you're still just NURSES with a buncha intitials piled up behind your name to make yourself feel a bit more like one of us.

 

[minstral]

How about a straight answer?
Anesthesiolgist do many money making procedures as a daily job requirement.
It adds up to more money as the reimbursement system is skewed to paying procedures vs medical management.

 

[ozzie20]

why do anesthesiologist make so much money compare to other doctors?
i reserached it they make about avg. 200k-250k. and some doctors who barely make 60k-100k.

Because we do different stuff from other doctors. Some doctors do stuff that pays less, some docs do stuff that pays more.

 

[deleted126335]

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[bostonblaz]

dr doze, well put my friend. i could not have said it any better myself. I do have a side question for anybody out here. With out starting trouble i just wanted to know who on this forum that talks smack about crna's does or would work in a practice that employs them. i am a ca3 starting to look for a job and i for one don't want to work in a practice that employs crnas as i have a fundamental issue with it. this is not ment as disrepect for them and all they do it's just that i would prefer to be in a physican only practice. my second question is do they exsist?

 

[Consigliere]

i am a ca3 starting to look for a job and i for one don't want to work in a practice that employs crnas as i have a fundamental issue with it.

Then you are SEVERELY limiting yourself, son

 

[McSnappy]

To try and answer the poster's question:

Anesthesia is a field where people die in a few minutes if things are not going well. It is also about supply and demand. ORs are the cash cow of a hospital. ORs cannot function without anesthesia.

Why are people not breaking down the doors to get into anesthesia residencies? Not many people are suited to anesthesiology in terms of personality traits. Also there are negative aspects to anesthesiology. In many institutions anesthesia is a low respect and low prestige specialty. In many hospitals we are little more than high priced help. We do not bring patients to the hospital, the surgeons do. Thus we have less clout with administration. We stick around wanting to go home but having to wait for the surgeon to show up and do his semi emergent case at 7pm when there was time available during the day and time available tomorrow. We are at the beck and call of the screaming teenager for her labor epidural at 3am. The ICU doc who doesn't want to come in and place a central line at 2am calls us.

In summary if your job requires smart people with lots of advanced training, has little prestige and little respect, there damn well better be a lot of money. And there is. Until supply meets demand. Then the med students stay away in droves.

The only real exposure to the field as a med student at most institutions involves looking from the other side of the curtain or helping out during OB epidurals or the rare... "have you ever done an LP" question during an IM rotation. I was drawn to the field by having a couple of influential attendings tell me I should look into it and the residents were all smiling and helpful when I ran across them in the ICU, OB or during the time I took to shadow (while sneaking off from a family med rotation a...couple of times). A med student must really make an effort to find out if they want to go into the field.

As far as staying away in droves... I lean more toward no exposure/fear of unknown/other fields having their bias and saying Ohhh..well they are crap b/c _________.

But, just as most fields, money talks. (see Jet for further details in his ever-ending truthfest with the Gen practictioners)

 

[Californian]

Dr.Doze- wow! thanks for your reply! good info. but I never thought that anesthesia of being low respect or low prestige specialty.

 

[Noyac]

Then you are SEVERELY limiting yourself, son

How do you figure?

 

[Noyac]

Dr.Doze- wow! thanks for your reply! good info. but I never thought that anesthesia of being low respect or low prestige specialty.

Both respect and prestige are earned in anesthesia. It is not all that difficult either.

But in other specialties like surgery for instance, they are assumed. Even if you are a total butcher.

Now there are also the specialties like ER and FP that I see very little respect for and almost no prestige. So its all relative.

 

[Californian]

oh so compare to surgeons anesthesiologist has low respect! so what?

 

[deleted126335]

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[ecCA1]

Dr. Doze and others:

The answer is to get involved in the hospital beyond "just doing anesthesia."

Get on the board of directors or at least show up at meetings.

Play a role or even run the pre-op clinic.

Wear the damn white coat even though the guy who refills the pyxis has one just like it.

We can't expect to be thought of highly if we try to bail earlier than other docs and take a hands-off approach to the hospital.

 

[militarymd]

so....what committees do you sit on?

Dr. Doze and others:

The answer is to get involved in the hospital beyond "just doing anesthesia."

Get on the board of directors or at least show up at meetings.

Play a role or even run the pre-op clinic.

Wear the damn white coat even though the guy who refills the pyxis has one just like it.

We can't expect to be thought of highly if we try to bail earlier than other docs and take a hands-off approach to the hospital.

 

[deleted126335]

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[Jalopycat]

I heard a funny anesthesia metaphor today that describes us perfectly:

Anesthesiologists are like the kicker of the football team. No one pays any attention to us until they need us to get them out of trouble.

So true.

 

[deleted126335]

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[toughlife]

Agreed. But I resent having to fight for what is assumed for physicians in other specialties. I was also trying to answer the original poster's query. One of the reasons that we are well paid relative to most other specialties is that we do have to fight for this.

Maybe we should get back at them by lobbying to have the highest reimbursement of any specialty. Money is always well respected.

 

[deleted126335]

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[ecCA1]

"so....what committees do you sit on?"

None. But I'm involved in the pre-op clinic and attend hospital-wide meetings whenever possible.

I do what I can to remind the anicllaries that they're dealing with doctors, not nurses, when they communicate with us.

As I said, it's important to get involved, even if you're not currently on a committee.

 

[Noyac]

Try taking a job as a fresh,well trained,capable and hard working graduate- In a practice where the anesthesiologists have been beaten up doormats for years-Your clinical skills will be respected, but that's it. Try saying no to an elective case at off hours, or canceling one that should be cancelled for medical reasons. See how far your respect gets you. See how often you get the benefit of the doubt.

I'm not sure I follow your statement. I have been in the situations that you describe. My current job was performed by a bunch of locums and before them a bunch of winers and trouble makers before I came. I am younger than every surgeon at my facility. 3 of my partners are also younger than every surgeon here. I have canceled a case or two. I have told surgeons after hours that they can't do the case. I have done everything you mention above.

Every year the physician services are evaluated by their peers. We have gained respect every year. This year we were the only physician service to improve from last year and last year we were the highest rated service. We ranked 4.5 out of a possible 5 pt scale. If you ask me (and my surgical colleagues) we are gaining respect and prestige.

So like I said, you must earn it but it is not that difficult. It just takes time unlike a surgeon who has it from the start, to lose.

As far as ER and FP, I am mostly talking about respect and prestige among peers. This is what I understood the question to be.

 

[RickKane]

I heard a funny anesthesia metaphor today that describes us perfectly:

Anesthesiologists are like the kicker of the football team. No one pays any attention to us until they need us to get them out of trouble.

So true.

That is awesome!! I might just go buy myself a Neil Rackers jersey.

 

[sevo85288]

the original poster poster is mis-informed or misleading on purpose. No physician working full-time makes $60K/yr.

pediatricians (the "lowest paid physicians") start at 145K at Kaiser P. in N. CA; a large HMO plus generous benefits.

Hospitalists average around 170K-200K plus benefits. Psychiatrist are starting at 160K and above.

Anesthesiologist are under-paid if you look at historic meterics. (pay is down by 50% inflation adjusted dollars since 1992)

a dentist doing a root canal gets paid more than an anesthesiologist doing a difficult AAA repair or liver tx.

the original poster is playing dumb or is really, really dumb.


PS: You will not limit yourself by working in an all M.D. practice. We love it; and many groups in N. CA will never hire a CRNA and we make sure of that everyday. Keeping our patients safe is our # 1 goal and saving our profession for the future is our #2 goal.

 

[persia]

I think that when you average the salaries of FPs and Peds people that you are also including the p/t people who may in fact be stay at home moms who chose to have the flexibility of being able to work one-two days per week. Working one day a week and still earning 60 000 is not bad.

Noyac seems to have it right. That the dynamics of the OR are skewed, but that you can reverse the lack of respect. I think locally we do pretty well and our academic people are very well regarded. When I see crna's doing a job, whew! there is NO comparison in terms of quality.

Sometimes, I think to 'get' respect you just step forward and assume it. In other words, don't ask for it but start with it. Anesthesiology is a quiet field, people don't make a big fuss like surgeons. But they are very powerful and important. In private practice, I think it is up to each group to determine it's bargaining power and what it will do for its members. A strong group can make a difference for its members.

 

[militarymd]

"so....what committees do you sit on?"

None. But I'm involved in the pre-op clinic and attend hospital-wide meetings whenever possible.

I do what I can to remind the anicllaries that they're dealing with doctors, not nurses, when they communicate with us.

As I said, it's important to get involved, even if you're not currently on a committee.

credentials committee
surgical services
ethics
and others that I can't remember because I sit on too damn many

 

[Strength&Speed]

Why do spine surgeons make even more money? Especially when none of the patients ever get any better?

amen brotha amen

 

[filter07]

Maybe it's just my institution but for pre-op evaluation, the surgeons (i.e. the intern) has to order all the labs and studies. What is the purpose of having an anesthesia pre-op clinic if the surgeons have to decide which studies to order? Shouldn't it be the "peri-operative physicians" who determine what cardiac or pulmonary workup should be done? After all, it's you guys who keep the patients alive while we butcher them. Most times I've just seen anesthesia copy/paste the surgery H&P and make a few comments about how their jaw looks.

 

[Consigliere]

How do you figure?

All MD practices are not very common in many parts of the USA.

 

[Noyac]

All MD practices are not very common in many parts of the USA.

I believe they are more common than you think. I obviously don't have any numbers but I am in one. My partners (if they came from other practices) came from all MD practices in big cities.

My point is that if someone wants an "All MD" practice then they are out there and that person would not be "severely limiting" themselves. They would be narrowing the field some but not necessarily restricting the field to an unattainable goal.

Just my opinion.

PS: There are some regions that they may be "severely limiting" themselves. So that is a variable for sure.

 

[Tenesma]

why anesthesia pre-op?

because the surgeons (including the interns) frequently have no clue about risk stratification and peri-operative issues from a medical point of view, and the anesthesia pre-op acts as a buffer to protect the patient.

the surgeons still need to do an H&P prior to the procedure for JCAHO and Medicare compliance reasons

 

[Consigliere]

I believe they are more common than you think.

True. Maybe severly limiting is too strong. It is very geographically specific, however. Where you are in Colorado, it's pretty variable. In the South, mainly ACT. In NJ, all of South Jersey is ACT whereas all of North Jersey is MD only.

 

[Tenesma]

i agree with Noyac - surgeons respect doctors who say no to them --- it is all part of their mentality/training - whoever barks loudest or whoever barks last must be worth respecting... odd but true

at my hospital a young crew of smart kids came in, taking over from older folk --- they laid down the law... ie: surgeries get cancelled if no surgical H&P, surgeries get cancelled if no Anesthesia Pre-Op, if no Consents... plus surgeries get cancelled if the protoplasm is poor... they stuck to their guns, and now the surgeons can't stop boasting to the other community hospital surgeons about how awesome anesthesia has become...

income is relative... the original posters question is dumb and shows a complete lack of insight re: business world and medicine... Reimbursement is very tightly linked to productivity and profitability... NBA players get paid a lot because they generate a ton of money for advertisers, networks - they also generate a LOT of jobs... Anesthesiologists get paid because they help generate income for the hospital and generate jobs (ie: without anesthesia there would be no operations, and no ORs)

 

[2ndyear]

Maybe it's just my institution but for pre-op evaluation, the surgeons (i.e. the intern) has to order all the labs and studies. What is the purpose of having an anesthesia pre-op clinic if the surgeons have to decide which studies to order? Shouldn't it be the "peri-operative physicians" who determine what cardiac or pulmonary workup should be done? After all, it's you guys who keep the patients alive while we butcher them. Most times I've just seen anesthesia copy/paste the surgery H&P and make a few comments about how their jaw looks.

There's a reason why it may not be a good idea to order things yourself. If you order it, you check it and follow up on it. I see the patient for 1 day. If I order a chest x-ray and it is normal except for a question of a lung nodule, fine. They're going to sleep. But who's going to follow up on the lung nodule? Not me... I'd rather call the intern, say look, we need an EKG, chest x-ray, and a CBC for this patient before surgery.

 

[buckhorn]

the original poster poster is mis-informed or misleading on purpose. No physician working full-time makes $60K/yr.

pediatricians (the "lowest paid physicians") start at 145K at Kaiser P. in N. CA; a large HMO plus generous benefits.

Hospitalists average around 170K-200K plus benefits. Psychiatrist are starting at 160K and above.

Anesthesiologist are under-paid if you look at historic meterics. (pay is down by 50% inflation adjusted dollars since 1992)

a dentist doing a root canal gets paid more than an anesthesiologist doing a difficult AAA repair or liver tx.

the original poster is playing dumb or is really, really dumb.


PS: You will not limit yourself by working in an all M.D. practice. We love it; and many groups in N. CA will never hire a CRNA and we make sure of that everyday. Keeping our patients safe is our # 1 goal and saving our profession for the future is our #2 goal.

Plenty of physicians earn less than 60k/per year. Most people refer to them as interns, residents and fellows. There are also physicians who never bothered to get a license or no longer practice clinical medicine that probably only make 60K. I was thinking of retiring from private practice to be a physician for Medicine-San-Frontieres, I doubt I will make much more than 60K.


There are even physicians who are practicing medicine with a valid license who have completed a residency who earn 60K. There are many Conrad 30, J-1 visa waiver H-1B workers or other foreign visa workers who are the indentured servants of their employers, but a few American physicians may also fall into that category. The employers and exploiters of physicians like to use these low ball salary figures to justify the ridiculous salary, they pay to foreign visa workers and at the same time whine that they are unable to find any American physicians to fill the job since it clearly is yet another "job no American is willing to do."

Please look at Ketamine's post below showing how the DOL has decided the prevailing wage for private practice anesthesiologists is 121K in Massachusetts or 98K for academic anesthesiologists.

This is an advertisement to prove that this is a "job no American will do." The anesthesia management company who posted it wants to hire at 140K per year a Conrad 30 J-1 waver physician. The foreign national or FMG will get his J-1 home country return requirement waived in exchange for working for three years on and H-1B visa at 140K per year. The carrot is that at the end of three years of service the anesthesia management company will sponsor them for a green card (USA permanent resident status). If the H-1B visa worker demands fair pay fair working conditions the employer can fire him. If you or I get fired you can get another job, but the H-1B will loose his right to live in this country, this will make him "out of status" and he will have to leave the USA immediately or risk arrest and deportation. This makes Visa workers' more valuable than the Americans they replace; they are the indentured servant of the anesthesia management company.

Why 140K? The salary was most likely set buy our government with your tax dollars. The DOL (department of labor) has an online OES Immigration Wage Data Which shows that for Anesthesiologist the mean wage is 141K working in a hospital, or 147K working in an office setting, i.e. pain management. The government only requires that employer pay their worker 80% to 90% of the prevailing wages so 140K is very generous of the anesthesia management company. Lucky this aspiring worker is not in Massachusetts since the mean salary for anesthesiologist is 121K in that state.

OES Immigration Wage Data ;
The Occupational Employment Statistics (OES) program conducts a semi-annual mail survey designed to produce estimates of employment and wages for specific occupations. The OES program collects data on wage and salary workers in nonfarm establishments in order to produce employment and wage estimates for about 800 occupations.Employment estimate and mean wage estimates for Anesthesiologist at;

DOL OES survey for Anesthesiologists

Anesthesiologist Employment OES Salary summary

Offices of physicians
$86.89/hr $180,730/year

General medical and surgical hospitals
$68.13/hr $141,700/year

Outpatient care centers
$84.77/hr $176,310/year

Colleges and universities
$47.48/hr $98,760/year

Offices of other health practitioners
$71.14/hr $147,970/year

Looking closely at the advertisement you will also see these clues, no phone number, no e-mail address; they only want to be contacted by mail. They do not list any hospital name. They do not want any Americans to respond since they are advertising as part of the application process for the Conrad 30 visa, which has an October first deadline. They will include in the application of their already chosen H-1B visa worker this advertisement to show that they tried but failed to hire and American so this "a job no Americans will do."

Should someone actual apply they most likely will toss the application in the trash but they may fallow the procedure outlined below at www.zazona.com

Please look at; Subject: How to Hire H-1Bs instead of Americans - For Dummies at
http://www.zazona.com/ShameH1B/JDNewsArchive/2006/1506-2006-06-21.txt

WWW.zazona.com[url] is a great web ...tified to guarantee a response. :eek:[/quote]

 

[cchoukal]

Shouldn't it be the "peri-operative physicians" who determine what cardiac or pulmonary workup should be done? After all, it's you guys who keep the patients alive while we butcher them. Most times I've just seen anesthesia copy/paste the surgery H&P and make a few comments about how their jaw looks.

At my place it's the other way around; the surgery residents are always looking at our H/Ps...

 

[AK_MD2BE]

Bump

 

[pgg]

Bump

Don't do that.

 

[jetproppilot]

why do anesthesiologist make so much money compare to other doctors?
.

Geez, I dunno.

Why does a chick with limited vocal ability (Brittany Spears) make it to the toppa the charts?

Why are there major league baseball players making a cuppla-mil PER MONTH?

Why did Catholic priests find it necessary to blow little kids?

Why is Obama a near shoe-in for our next president?

Why does medicare pay a heart surgeon about seventeen hundred bucks for the most invasive surgery on the planet, but an ENT dude makes a cuppla grand for a 25 minute FESS?

Why do primary care docs make less than some in the nursing profession?

Why are steroids so wrong, but its OK to drive up to the Daquiri Factory in your car and order a drink thats called the DWI, and the dude even gives you a straw?

Why was my life bombarded by Hurricane Katrina?

Why is Copenhagen five buks a can, and Red Seal is three? no worries though...I own UST stock, which makes both brands...

Why is there incessant governmental restriction on the operative experience, bombarding doctors and nurses alike with totally useless paperwork that does nothing to enhance patient care?

Why can someone whos really good at a card game (Phil Helmuth, Chris Ferguson, Daniel Negraneau et al) make millions, but a dude wanting to be a doctor hassta swallow incredible debt in order to take care of people?

WHY, DUDE, WHY?

I wish I knew. In the mean time, until someone figures out how really fukked up this world's reimbursement is, I'll continue to deposit my benjamins.