Why do Cash Practices Keep their Rates a Secret?

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F0nzie

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Anybody have an idea why almost all the cash practices you find online have their rates hidden?

Almost all of them have a fees section WITHOUT THE FEES.

If anybody is willing to share the answer, I'd appreciate it.

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Anybody have an idea why almost all the cash practices you find online have their rates hidden?

Almost all of them have a fees section WITHOUT THE FEES.

If anybody is willing to share the answer, I'd appreciate it.

lol it's not really a secret if you CALL them. I think it's just that (1) it might appear somewhat crass to publish a rate. (2) the rate changes, and he might not even update his website that often. (3) it might be negotiable--doesn't want to turn down businesses. I'm guessing you are starting a PP? I'd start with the district branch of APA. This is the kind of thing they are suppose to help you with.
 
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Yeah... Alot of them seen to be sliding scale

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Anybody have an idea why almost all the cash practices you find online have their rates hidden?

Almost all of them have a fees section WITHOUT THE FEES.

If anybody is willing to share the answer, I'd appreciate it.

well I've seen a good number of people list a rate(or a range...which has its own problems), but in many cases this listed rate is usually negotiable.

The answer though comes down to what you and I both know- It is hard to find these cash pay therapy patients, and you don't want to lose out on potential business because they see a rate they don't want to pay.

I know people that list rates per hour for therapy of 175 to 225 dollars, but if you actually totaled up all their cash pay therapy patients, it may turn out the mean per hour therapy fee is more like 130-135 dollars.....after all the economic harship(relatively) pts, residents/psychologists who get in training fee discounts, and other compromises.

what are you thinking about charging per hour for therapy? Also, if you dont mind what area of the country are you going to be doing this in and how big is the city you are going to do this in?
 
Sliding scale, discounts, and the lack transparent market value seems problematic... Patients who are in the cash market may call several psychiatrists and get two completely different rates. And how is a psychiatrist supposed to know what to set the rate at? It makes us look bad IMO.

Let's say I call these psychiatrists and one is charging $150/hr with a 30% discount, the other $200/hr and another charging $300/hr. If I were a patient I'd be mad at the guy charging $300/hr and I'd wonder if the one charging $200 sucks. And why is this other guy randomly giving me a 30% discount... this guy has to really be terrible...

Transparent pricing is necessary for any concept of value to have meaning, and to send appropriate signals concerning scarcity or abundance. Non-transparent pricing is a hallmark of command economies, as Professor Robert Higgs explains in his brilliant book Crisis and Leviathan. There can simply be no meaningful competition when the prices aren’t transparent and known up front.
from http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2013/04/movement-medical-price-transparency-happening.html
 
Experienced the same thing looking for a job. EVERY OTHER position has a salary posted except the physician salary. So I could go into an interview and they can low ball me by 50k and I'd be smiling like an idiot accepting the offer because I don't know the difference.
 
I publish my rates, along with the fact that I am not in any insurance networks. I also provide details about what exactly out of network reimbursement entails. This saves me from having to spend time on the phone telling people these things (which usually also involves hearing some of their story) only to have them say that the fee is too high or they really want to go in network. This saves a LOT of time, which may be more important when your practice is already up and running, as opposed to just getting started. I believe that the patients also appreciate this, since they are not wasting their time/getting their hopes up.
 
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it might appear somewhat crass to publish a rate.

Alright well, the reimbursement rates set by the government and private insurance aren't going to be rising with inflation anytime soon (it hasn't in the last decade). How much longer does the private sector have to suffer before we start being crass? Part of the dream of being a doctor is being your own boss, not being ruled by a CEO with a nursing degree and an MBA.
 
Sliding scale, discounts, and the lack transparent market value seems problematic... Patients who are in the cash market may call several psychiatrists and get two completely different rates. And how is a psychiatrist supposed to know what to set the rate at? It makes us look bad IMO.

Let's say I call these psychiatrists and one is charging $150/hr with a 30% discount, the other $200/hr and another charging $300/hr. If I were a patient I'd be mad at the guy charging $300/hr and I'd wonder if the one charging $200 sucks. And why is this other guy randomly giving me a 30% discount... this guy has to really be terrible...

from http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2013/04/movement-medical-price-transparency-happening.html

med mgt is a commodity....cash pay psychotherapy isnt! Patients know this....they understand that in the cash pay psychotherapy market it is all about demand for services and that is completely dependent on how well the therapist can sell himself and how good his services are percieved to be.

There are some psychiatrists who people wouldnt pay 25 dollars to per hour for cash pay psychotherapy. Because of this, there can be no standard rate across markets.....
 
Sliding scale, discounts, and the lack transparent market value seems problematic... Patients who are in the cash market may call several psychiatrists and get two completely different rates. And how is a psychiatrist supposed to know what to set the rate at?

I'm puzzled by this question- how is ANYONE selling ANYTHING supposed to know what to set their price at? Cash pay psychotherapy is no different than a major league baseball team trying to decide what to set ticket prices at- the answer is you set the price at the point that(for your given time investment) maximizes revenue and profit.

So to answer your question you just have to get out there and see how it goes....if you set your rate at 165 dollars per hour and find yourself with very few pts(and tons of open spots), you may have to lower rates. Likewise, if you set your rate at 165 dollars per hour and find yourself quickly booked out, it would make sense to raise rates above this(and risk losing a few people).....

it's the same as any other business. When you do cash pay therapy, you're selling a service.
 
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I publish my rates, along with the fact that I am not in any insurance networks. I also provide details about what exactly out of network reimbursement entails. This saves me from having to spend time on the phone telling people these things (which usually also involves hearing some of their story) only to have them say that the fee is too high or they really want to go in network. This saves a LOT of time, which may be more important when your practice is already up and running, as opposed to just getting started. I believe that the patients also appreciate this, since they are not wasting their time/getting their hopes up.

Thanks. Good to know.
 
if you set your rate at 165 dollars per hour .

That's close to what social workers have their cash rates set at in the area I am moving to (~$150). That's why it would be helpful for me if other psychiatrists published their rates.

There are a few that do publish their rates, but many who do not. I guess I will take a shot in the dark and see what happens.
 
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That's close to what social workers have their cash rates set at in the area I am moving to (~$150). That's why it would be helpful for me if other psychiatrists published their rates.
.

yes, but my guess is that those social workers who are actually getting patients to pay 150 dollars cash for therapy are the cream of the crop....those with tons of expertise, perhaps even expertise in a niche area, and get referrals by others in the community because they are known for a skill set. I can guarantee you that newly minted lcsw's with little private practice experience just moving into the area aren't generating anything like those rates...more than likely they are contracting out with agencies at that point in their career hoping to pick up scraps.

I wouldn't get too hung up on what title someone has in cash pay therapy. Titles don't help the patient....

If it were me, and I were just out of residency moving to a new area to do cash pay therapy, I'd emphasize that I'm a psychiatrist and also will deal with their meds(without needing to schedule a med mgt session) and would post a rate of between 150 to 165 dollars per session. Listed rate.
 
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$165 per hour seems a little low for psychiatric services

it is probably highly dependent on area...here I could easily find a cash pay psychiatrist to do 1 hr therapy sessions for that.

Also, keep in mind he is a new grad moving to a different area.

My guess is that there are going to be tons of psychologists in the area with good reps and lots of experience who are either willing to take insurance or accept cash feels of 125-135 dollars/hr. That's what you are competing with as a cash pay therapy psychiatrist.....if you're going to command significantly more than that, there has to be some reason patients are going to pay significantly more. Having the ability to do meds helps in some cases.
 
it is probably highly dependent on area...here I could easily find a cash pay psychiatrist to do 1 hr therapy sessions for that.

Also, keep in mind he is a new grad moving to a different area.

My guess is that there are going to be tons of psychologists in the area with good reps and lots of experience who are either willing to take insurance or accept cash feels of 125-135 dollars/hr. That's what you are competing with as a cash pay therapy psychiatrist.....if you're going to command significantly more than that, there has to be some reason patients are going to pay significantly more. Having the ability to do meds helps in some cases.

That makes sense. I wouldn't offer my services for that amount... a psychiatrist can easily make more than that with insurance/med management. However, I guess if a psychiatrist has a burning desire to perform psychotherapy, it makes sense.

EDIT:
just wanted to clarify (in case anyone critical of "greedy doctors" is reading this), when I talk about making more, I am referring to revenue- obviously profit would be less.
 
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Alright well, the reimbursement rates set by the government and private insurance aren't going to be rising with inflation anytime soon (it hasn't in the last decade). How much longer does the private sector have to suffer before we start being crass? Part of the dream of being a doctor is being your own boss, not being ruled by a CEO with a nursing degree and an MBA.

You are kind of right with the command economy thing. Medical service is a command economy. The rates for reimbursement is set by a committee, not by competition. Cash pay psychotherapy, while somewhat more competitive in nature, is still limited by things like out of network reimbursement rates, etc.

Again, I would say that if you are interested in setting up a private practice, you need to join a local chapter and get to know the local therapists and psychiatrists and get referrals that way. The more senior psychiatrists in the community are probably going to be willing to mentor you and tell you what a reasonable rate would be. Obviously you have to ask around and get multiple opinions.

Meanwhile, why not sign up for a few private insurance panels to get started doing meds mgmt?

The same thing happens with jobs. While they don't publish rates on their website, if you call they'll tell you. Then you can compare.

Being your own boss brings its hazards--running a business requires marketing, accounting skills, networks, referrals, etc. etc. You can't just expect that you can reap the benefits of running a private practice without paying the price as well?
 
Let's say I call these psychiatrists and one is charging $150/hr with a 30% discount, the other $200/hr and another charging $300/hr. If I were a patient I'd be mad at the guy charging $300/hr and I'd wonder if the one charging $200 sucks. And why is this other guy randomly giving me a ...

This phenomenon does happen. In a number of areas, if you want to find a non IMG psychiatrist who does combined med mgmt and psychotherapy, it's almost exclusively non insurance. People who charge full fee get away with it because people know that the psychiatrists who take insurance generally don't spend a lot of time with you. People who can afford full fee with the help of out-of-network coverage generally want some TLC, and think that the 10 people who do full fee privates all charge $300, therefore, they must be better--and they are, in the sense that they speak crisp English, look dignified, sit in beautiful fancy offices, and give their patients their cell phone numbers, and do pretentious psychodynamic treatment. Not in the sense that the Zoloft they prescribe is gonna be somehow more effective.

Obviously you are very unfamiliar with the complex games of big leagues private practice. You really really need a mentor if you didn't go to one of the few residency programs where you get a lot of familiarities with this just by being in them--and this could mean PAID supervision, which would be SO worth it. You will need an initial investment, and at least a period of time for caseloads to ramp up--which means you might need some part time job to hold you over...this process could take a number of years, during which time you either will be on insurance panels and doing high throughput med mgmt, or work for a clinic, or do inpatient/ER work.
 
Again, I would say that if you are interested in setting up a private practice, you need to join a local chapter and get to know the local therapists and psychiatrists and get referrals that way. The more senior psychiatrists in the community are probably going to be willing to mentor you and tell you what a reasonable rate would be. Obviously you have to ask around and get multiple opinions.

Thanks, I'll try this out.

Meanwhile, why not sign up for a few private insurance panels to get started doing meds mgmt?

I have thought about this extensively and decided against it. I already have another job that can pay for my rent and malpractice. Although I may consider it if a year goes by and I do not get a single patient :D
 
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This phenomenon does happen. In a number of areas, if you want to find a non IMG psychiatrist who does combined med mgmt and psychotherapy, it's almost exclusively non insurance. People who charge full fee get away with it because people know that the psychiatrists who take insurance generally don't spend a lot of time with you. People who can afford full fee with the help of out-of-network coverage generally want some TLC, and think that the 10 people who do full fee privates all charge $300, therefore, they must be better--and they are, in the sense that they speak crisp English, look dignified, sit in beautiful fancy offices, and give their patients their cell phone numbers, and do pretentious psychodynamic treatment. Not in the sense that the Zoloft they prescribe is gonna be somehow more effective.

Obviously you are very unfamiliar with the complex games of big leagues private practice. You really really need a mentor if you didn't go to one of the few residency programs where you get a lot of familiarities with this just by being in them--and this could mean PAID supervision, which would be SO worth it. You will need an initial investment, and at least a period of time for caseloads to ramp up--which means you might need some part time job to hold you over...this process could take a number of years, during which time you either will be on insurance panels and doing high throughput med mgmt, or work for a clinic, or do inpatient/ER work.

I picked a city with a ton of affluent cash pay type patients who are probably more psychologically minded in San Francisco. I then searched for cash pay psychiatrists in sanfrancisco. The results were fairly interesting.......I found a ton of people(literally looked through all the first 5 pages) and it was clear that there were a bunch of really qualified people(ucsf trained being the most common, then stanford) with lots of experience. But a lot of the people were listing hourly cash pay rates of 175 to 200 dollars. Some 200-225. There were a few in the 250-300 hr/range, but these were very much the minority. The average was about 200 dollars, or maybe a tad less. And that was just listed rates- Im sure for some they will negotiate a bit. And this is in perhaps the most expensive city in the country with the most expensive office space(even for tiny one office analysts).....200 in san fran(after accounting for rent on a tiny office) is probably more like 160 outside phoenix.
 
That makes sense. I wouldn't offer my services for that amount... a psychiatrist can easily make more than that with insurance/med management. QUOTE]

in terms of billing yes, but it's very possible you will make more money by billing 165/hr to cash pay therapy patients than billing patients(through copays) and insurance ~210 dollars/hr through high volume med mgt. The overhead in a cash pay therapy practice is going to be a lot less than that in a high volume insurance based med mgt practice. And the % collected on total billings is going to be higher as well(in fact with a well run cash pay therapy practice it may run close to 100%)......

plus, many people who are interested in therapy are also interested in having a greater impact(and making more of a difference) in their patients lives than just tinkeriif ng with their meds....it may be worth it to take some financial hit for that tradeoff
 
I picked a city with a ton of affluent cash pay type patients who are probably more psychologically minded in San Francisco. I then searched for cash pay psychiatrists in sanfrancisco. The results were fairly interesting.......I found a ton of people(literally looked through all the first 5 pages) and it was clear that there were a bunch of really qualified people(ucsf trained being the most common, then stanford) with lots of experience. But a lot of the people were listing hourly cash pay rates of 175 to 200 dollars. Some 200-225. There were a few in the 250-300 hr/range, but these were very much the minority. The average was about 200 dollars, or maybe a tad less. And that was just listed rates- Im sure for some they will negotiate a bit. And this is in perhaps the most expensive city in the country with the most expensive office space(even for tiny one office analysts).....200 in san fran(after accounting for rent on a tiny office) is probably more like 160 outside phoenix.

Probably an indicator of what the market will bear with an oversaturation of cash pay psychiatrists? Other major cities with less cash psychiatrists seem to have higher rates...
 
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Probably an indicator of what the market will bear with an oversaturation of cash pay psychiatrists? Other major cities with less cash psychiatrists seem to have higher rates...

perhaps.....With ucsf and stanford both pumping out lots of grads and a lot of them wanting to do therapy that probably does play a role. Also part of what is important to find out is how much they are actually collecting, how negotiable those higher rates are, etc....Im in a smallish city and some of the doctoral therapists(including psychologists in here)who charge highish rates will actually negotiate a bit for certain hours(for example they may negotiate with a 4pm slot for a pt they really dont care about seeing but they may substantially for a 10am slot).....

Whenever I see a per hour figure like 300/hr for therapy I think:

-has some niche they are an expert in
-likely has post-residency analytical training
-tons of experience and a big reputation locally
-really upscale setting(expensive suite, nice furniture in office)

Im interested to see how it works out for you though. I admire the attitude because its something I would like to do but just don't have enough confidence to try full time right now
 
Im interested to see how it works out for you though. I admire the attitude because its something I would like to do but just don't have enough confidence to try full time right now

Financially, the best tactic for me would probably be to work full-time + moonlight and make 250k+ to pay off the loans in 3 years. Then when I finally pay off my debt, work for 3-5 more years and put a bunch of money into retirement. Then scale back from the full-time job 1 day at a time and start filling each day with cash patients.

That sounds like a super lame and boring path and I don't have any patience to wait that long lol. I feel like I have waited so long to get to this point that I need to reward myself. For all I know I might die tomorrow.

2 MORE MONTHS UNTIL GRADUATION!!!
 
I'd be hesitant to embark on private practice right after residency. Generally, I think after residency it is best to work a salaried position for at least 5 years to establish yourself as a psychiatrist and to build up some degree of reputation.

I know a psychiatrist who is the in-patient psychiatrist at a hospital psych ward. She also has a private practice and she is able to bring many of the in-patient patients into her private practice for their continued, chronic treatment. This set up would afford one both a salaried revenue and a profit-based revenue, and you'd also be able to constantly supplement your private practice with patients from the hospital psych ward upon their discharge.

I think this is an ethical "no-no" in some systems, but the hospital she works for has no problem with it. Great gig, if you can get away with it.
 
That sounds like a super lame and boring path and I don't have any patience to wait that long lol. I feel like I have waited so long to get to this point that I need to reward myself. For all I know I might die tomorrow.

I know what you mean. I don't see a reason to rush so much on the student loans if the interest rates are favorable. You need to choose a job that's sustainable in the long run instead of trying to "grind it out" for 5 years so you can relax for the rest of your life--this will make you HATE every minute of the grinding.

I suggest instead of scaling up immediately, prioritize and see where you can scale DOWN, and working less by downsizing your life and prioritize the things you need. For instance, perhaps you can defer getting the big house and just cut one day a work off to go surfing or carpentry or whatever hobby you have. While I agree that it might be difficult to start a FULL TIME cash practice immediately after graduation, I don't see why you can take a 20 hr a week part time job to start. Or even just moonlight 3 days a week if your wife can put you on dependent insurance. You might hate taking an inpatient job and work really hard for a number of years.
 
That makes sense. I wouldn't offer my services for that amount... a psychiatrist can easily make more than that with insurance/med management. QUOTE]

in terms of billing yes, but it's very possible you will make more money by billing 165/hr to cash pay therapy patients than billing patients(through copays) and insurance ~210 dollars/hr through high volume med mgt. The overhead in a cash pay therapy practice is going to be a lot less than that in a high volume insurance based med mgt practice. And the % collected on total billings is going to be higher as well(in fact with a well run cash pay therapy practice it may run close to 100%)......

plus, many people who are interested in therapy are also interested in having a greater impact(and making more of a difference) in their patients lives than just tinkeriif ng with their meds....it may be worth it to take some financial hit for that tradeoff

I would think that the allowable charges for a insurance-based med mgt practice (seeing at least 3 per hour) would be in the $250-300/hr range, and would anticipate collecting at least $200 per hour. Of course, this type of practice would have a higher overhead than a cash psychotx practice- however charging 165/hr will probably bring in approx 125/hr (at most) after accounting for missed appts, discounts, bounced checks, etc.

I agree regarding some be willing to take the financial hit for their preferred style of practice
 
I would think that the allowable charges for a insurance-based med mgt practice (seeing at least 3 per hour) would be in the $250-300/hr range, and would anticipate collecting at least $200 per hour. Of course, this type of practice would have a higher overhead than a cash psychotx practice- however charging 165/hr will probably bring in approx 125/hr (at most) after accounting for missed appts, discounts, bounced checks, etc.

I agree regarding some be willing to take the financial hit for their preferred style of practice

in my area one wouldn't generate quite that much billing bcbs for med mgt visits. But this is probably area dependent. BCBS here is the major player so that may bring rates down here.

Also, collecting 125 and billing 165 for cash pay therapy is unrealistically low. These patients are *much different* than the med mgt patients in terms of your relationship with them and their committment to treatment. And also in most cases in their responsibility as well. If your longterm cash pay therapy patients bounce checks or miss appointments, then they will write another check after being informed that last one bounced, or present a money order. And if they miss appointments(and dont pay for them) then they won't be longterm therapy patients. The few people I know who have this type of practice can literally go a couple months at a time without having a single issue with payment(or nonpayment for missed appts)....once one gets in a groove, I would expect a low 90s to high 90s% in terms of billing and collections.

I don't do it(and am not planning on starting it), but it really is a completely different ballgame.
 
I don't know if any psychiatrist would be willing to invest tons of unpaid hours into setting up a private practice and building a reputation and referral network for $125/hr after overhead when you can get hired as an independent contractor at that rate as the most mediocre psychiatrist with incomprehensible English...
 
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I don't know if any psychiatrist would be willing to invest tons of unpaid hours into setting up a private practice and building a reputation and referral network for $125/hr after overhead when you can get hired as an independent contractor at that rate as the most mediocre psychiatrist with incomprehensible English...

whoa...apples to oranges fonzie.

you could ask that same question about *most* professions....(why interesting work that requires greater skill set and training sometimes pays less within the same field that boring grinding non stimulating work requiring a less unique and developed skill set)
 
in my area one wouldn't generate quite that much billing bcbs for med mgt visits. But this is probably area dependent. BCBS here is the major player so that may bring rates down here.
.

BCBS pays pretty good in states where they aren't dominant (such as MS). They ratchet down rates in states where they are dominant (Alabama).

Cash pay rates are also higher in MS compared to other states.
 
I don't know if any psychiatrist would be willing to invest tons of unpaid hours into setting up a private practice and building a reputation and referral network for $125/hr after overhead when you can get hired as an independent contractor at that rate as the most mediocre psychiatrist with incomprehensible English...

It's hard to get a $125/hr rate for a stable situation with daytime hours (not impossible though). Certainly it is easy to get that and more for short-term locums work, especially weekend/holiday coverage.
 
While it is true that many cash-only psychiatrists are doing psychotherapy, many are also doing straight med management, too. Some patients seek them out over psychiatrists in their insurance network because they have had bad experiences with in-network psychiatrists and nurse practitioners who didn't take the time to properly evaluate them or to systematically manage their complicated problems, and as a result didn't help them get better. Also, many patients are willing to pay out of pocket for a psychiatrist who takes 30 or 45 minutes every month to really listen, even it is "just" about medications. Also, many in-network psychiatrists don't take the time to talk to patients' therapists or PMD's, are not easy to reach by phone, or are not flexible with scheduling and calling in prescriptions. Patients who are getting "med management only" will often put a premium on this sort of stuff. It also helps if you know what you are doing with the meds. And the beauty of cash only is that you can charge the same fee whether you are doing med management, psychotherapy or a combination, i.e. you are being paid for your time and skill, and there is no difference in value between the various things you know how to do.
 
While it is true that many cash-only psychiatrists are doing psychotherapy, many are also doing straight med management, too. Some patients seek them out over psychiatrists in their insurance network because they have had bad experiences with in-network psychiatrists and nurse practitioners who didn't take the time to properly evaluate them or to systematically manage their complicated problems, and as a result didn't help them get better. Also, many patients are willing to pay out of pocket for a psychiatrist who takes 30 or 45 minutes every month to really listen, even it is "just" about medications. Also, many in-network psychiatrists don't take the time to talk to patients' therapists or PMD's, are not easy to reach by phone, or are not flexible with scheduling and calling in prescriptions. Patients who are getting "med management only" will often put a premium on this sort of stuff. It also helps if you know what you are doing with the meds. And the beauty of cash only is that you can charge the same fee whether you are doing med management, psychotherapy or a combination, i.e. you are being paid for your time and skill, and there is no difference in value between the various things you know how to do.

yeah I've heard of that as well.....the problem is med mgt for mood and anxiety disorders just isnt that complicated or sophisticated. If I were a patient, I certainly wouldn't pay out of pocket to see a cash pay psych for purely med mgt....unless they have invented some drug that works better than all the other drugs out there and they are keeping it a secret.
 
yeah I've heard of that as well.....the problem is med mgt for mood and anxiety disorders just isnt that complicated or sophisticated. If I were a patient, I certainly wouldn't pay out of pocket to see a cash pay psych for purely med mgt....unless they have invented some drug that works better than all the other drugs out there and they are keeping it a secret.

How often have you prescribed an MAOI? What about managing someone who is very suicidal? Someone with complicated medical issues? Co-morbid personality disorders? Substance abuse? I would argue that these facets of managing depression and anxiety are pretty challenging, and require more time than it takes to "stack and whack " a Zoloft script.
 
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How often have you prescribed an MAOI? What about managing someone who is very suicidal? Someone with complicated medical issues? Co-morbid personality disorders? Substance abuse? I would argue that these facets of managing depression and anxiety are pretty challenging, and require more time than it takes to "stack and whack " a Zoloft script.

I've done all of the above, and have 4 different patients on MAOI's now.....we are psychiatrists and those are our drugs. I sure as hell hope most of us know how to do those things and have experience in them. If most of the med mgt psychiatrists out there now don't have those very basic skill sets, well that speaks very poorly of our field.....I think most do though.

I think when it comes to therapy skills there is a much wider variance however.
 
I've done all of the above, and have 4 different patients on MAOI's now.....we are psychiatrists and those are our drugs. I sure as hell hope most of us know how to do those things and have experience in them. If most of the med mgt psychiatrists out there now don't have those very basic skill sets, well that speaks very poorly of our field.....I think most do though.

I think when it comes to therapy skills there is a much wider variance however.

My point was not to belittle you, Vistaril, but point out how the management of "simple" anxiety and depression can be just as complex as managing bipolar disorder or schizophrenia. Sometimes it can be more challenging. I'm sure you are great at managing all of these things, but not all psychiatrists and NP's are.
 
My point was not to belittle you, Vistaril, but point out how the management of "simple" anxiety and depression can be just as complex as managing bipolar disorder or schizophrenia. Sometimes it can be more challenging. I'm sure you are great at managing all of these things, but not all psychiatrists and NP's are.

I'm convinced this isn't due to the fact that they 'don't know how' and rather the fact that they've sorta given up and are just trying to placate their patient.....and there may be some placebo effect in this temporarily.

The fundamental problem is that there isn't enough good evidence based medicine showing(for mood and anxiety disorders at least) that A + B + C > A + D + E for example....so the 'skill' of the medmgt psych is negated by that absence to some degree. heck more skeptical people would argue that there isn't good evidence showing A > nothing, but that's another argument.
 
A good number of psychiatrists would probably agree that the 15 min med check sucks. The fact that patients would even consider to pay a psychiatrist in cash may indicate that patients feel the same way.

If we're talking about evidence, there is evidence that patients have a better outcome with a stronger therapeutic alliance. We also have evidence that patients report a stronger alliance with psychiatrists that spend 45 min with them vs. 15...
 
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I agree 100% with strangelove. Many of these patients with depression and anxiety can be highly complex ie. medical problems, axis 2, substance abuse, trauma, somatoform disorders, toxic environments, zero emotional support from family, etc.

Prescribing from a dynamically or even well informed perspective is prohibitive if you only see patients for 15 min every 2-3 months. Handing them a rx of Zoloft in a 15 min visit would be like seeing a patient with obesity, telling them to exercise and eat right, and then crossing your fingers for some good results...
 
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A good number of psychiatrists would probably agree that the 15 min med check sucks. The fact that patients would even consider to pay a psychiatrist in cash may indicate that patients feel the same way.

If we're talking about evidence, there is evidence that patients have a better outcome with a stronger therapeutic alliance. We also have evidence that patients report a stronger alliance with psychiatrists that spend 45 min with them vs. 15...

And I would argue that is not 'straight med mgt', which is the phrase strangelove first mentioned in this context.....you're doing supportive therapy at a minimum in those cases.
 
And I would argue that is not 'straight med mgt', which is the phrase strangelove first mentioned in this context.....you're doing supportive therapy at a minimum in those cases.

I think the point is that there is really no such thing as med management without a component of "therapy," even in a simple depression or anxiety patient. If you try to separate these too much, i.e. you only see your patients for 5-15 minutes and don't think it's your job to be therapeutic in your verbal interaction, then you will probably find some of the patients who have the money/benefits/wherewithal leaving you to see a "cash only" psychiatrist. That can happen even if you very expertly manage their meds and they also have a psychotherapist to do "therapy." BTW, we are seeing the same trend in primary care, where patients are willing to pay out of pocket to have their doctor spend time listening, thinking about their problems, and truly coordinating their care.
 
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Anybody have an idea why almost all the cash practices you find online have their rates hidden?

Almost all of them have a fees section WITHOUT THE FEES.

If anybody is willing to share the answer, I'd appreciate it.

You can find a number of sites that do quote their fees. Just google: psychiatry fee schedule, and you'll get tons of places. For example:

https://www.kpmhs.com/fee-schedule/

http://www.southcoastpsychiatry.com/policies.php

http://www.flumepsychiatry.com/NewPatientInformation/FeeSchedule.aspx

http://www.eveningpsychiatrist.com/fees-2/

http://www.pgpsychiatry.com/feeschedule.html

I would keep going, but you can do the rest yourself. General rule seems to be between $200-300 per hour.
 
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This Newport Beach practice looks seriously swanky! :laugh:


I also like one of those pages that said, and I quote, we can see most of the patients for less than a cell phone plan a year--which, interestingly, is true...

I should've gone into the cell phone biz...
 
I should've gone into the cell phone biz...

I thought the comparison is quite silly....

for one, replace cell phone with phone. As most people now don't have a landline. So making it seem like a cell phone is some trivial extra, as everyone knows, is absurd. Everyone needs a cell phone, and(like it or not) everyone does tons of stuff on it every day.
 
I thought the comparison is quite silly....

for one, replace cell phone with phone. As most people now don't have a landline. So making it seem like a cell phone is some trivial extra, as everyone knows, is absurd. Everyone needs a cell phone, and(like it or not) everyone does tons of stuff on it every day.

So psych patients need cell phones but not outpatient treatment? Got it.

I'm sorry, but cell phones are a luxury item. There's a decent amount of evidence they likely make our patients worse. There is quite good evidence that screen use at night worsens sleep, for example. Also evidence that they worsen attention. Facebook has been shown to stimulate addiction centers. None of this is necessary. They could choose to have a $10/mo landline, but instead we choose a smartphone plan because we're all addicted to our Facebook, Twitter, news feeds, Reddit, and yes, SDN. Still this is a choice, not a necessity, and I feel the comparison is appropriate.
 
Where can you get a landline for 10 bucks a month? They're like 40 or 50 around here. That's why none of us have them any more.

It's not even April 1st, and I agree with Vistaril instead of DN. Weird.
 
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