Why do you want to be an orthodontist

[Nina2003]

Hello
For those who are interested in becoming an orthodontist or already are. would you share with us your motives, why do you want to become an orthodontist? Skip the financial part..
Thank you

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[straightsmile4u]

Easy question- I'd do it no matter what the salary! It's FUN! I have the best time seeing patients who WANT to be there, and seeing their happiness when every day they look better. Nothing beats the appreciation when you take the braces off and they have whole new look!
Plus, you get to know families and watch the kids grow up. You become part of their lives. You are a role model, a sympathetic ear, a friend.
It's the best job in the world, and TOTALLY worth all the hard work to get there.
(I graduate in 3 weeks from a 3-yr Ortho program, YIPPEEEE!)
My husband is a general dentist, when he comes home from work he's tired and stressed, when I come home I am energized and happy!

 

[DocDrtySanchez]

Straightsmile4u...Congratulations...reading your post has made me oven more excited about training in Orthodontics...I am starting a three year program in about three weeks. Any words of advice for incoming residents? Have you found a position yet? Any insight you can give me would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Mo007]

Anyone knows the average ages of graduate orthodontists? are all ortho programs 3 yrs?

 

[straightsmile4u]

Congrats DocSanchez! I know it's really hard to be accepted! Just work hard and expect the unexpected.. it'll all be over soon (like pulling off a bandaid!)
hee hee...
glad it's OVER!!!

GOOD LUCK!!!

 

[texas_dds]

im very interested in ortho, applying to 11 programs as i type this note!
any advise for personal statement and interviews?
does your program let current residents have input on admissions?
thanks and congratulations, you made it!
ps-your reasons for loving ortho are just how i feel when i am allowed to see patients in the graduate clinic - i cannot wait!

 

[c132]

Ortho is a boring field. I HATE IT> I can't see why my school makes us take 4 classes on this sh** All I can say, thank god for invisalign. Whoever wants braces that comes in my office is getting them or getting the boot!!!!!!!!!!!

A + note though, ORtho makes a killing. I have a friend who just got out and makes more money now than he knows what to do with. I am struggling to buy a new fly rod and he goes and buys a 1200 dollar one and he doesn't even friggin fly fish but one or two times a year!

 

[texas_dds]

this perception of invisalign scares me
its full arch treatment and you can really jack someone up if you do things wrong, do you think the lab tech in costa rica calls the shots? no! not anymore - you have to know whats going on, its not as easy as slapping on some bleach trays. i hope this technique is respected!

 

[c132]

Yeah I know, I give my friend crap about invisalign all the time. He answers back with, the end of endo supposed to be rotary endo tools, but what did it do for them? It up'ed avg salary of an endodontist.

I truely don't plan to ever do ortho, I will refer it all out the door! I have been grateful enough to see some invisalign come out of my school, and I tell ya, there not all they are cracked up to be!!!! One pt. I followed, had to get bands because his teeth never would line into MI.

I think if they would put some money into research, then invisalign would be a heck of an "invention".

Ortho got to me after doing 12 million SNA, SNB, IMPA, FMPA and those other boring parts!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I never really got to sit back and try and enjoy it, I just got hacked with the technical stuff for so long that I didn't even want to do my first pt!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[ryche22]

SNA, SNB, Gonion inferior, Gonion posterior, PTM, ANS, PNS, Infradentale...AHHH! Flashbacks!

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=118468&highlight=tracings

i got pretty speedy at them...but also did them so much that i was even dreaming about them...which is definatly not cool.

i have a file that actually has my procedures on how to do the computerized cephs, ill post it if anyone is interested.

late
rick

 

[mightymolar]

Hey Rick

Please do let us know on how to do the computerized cephs!

Cheers,

M

 

[ryche22]

wow.
finally i can get around to this...just took chem 2 and a poli sci class in 6 weeks, and had to move across town at the same time...

i have the file, but its 435KB, and i can only attach 100KB. i have aol webspace, but dont know how to upload the doc.

if someone can PM me to help me out that would be cool, otherwise, not a big deal.

thanks

 

[grtuck]

You could try using WinRAR (free demo version) to zip the file, and make it smaller. If it wont shrink enough, WinRAR will also allow you you create multiple zip files that "combine" to make the full size file. The person dowloading the file from you will just have to down load like 2 or 3 files then unzip the first one with WinRAR and it will do the rest for you.

Hope that helps, its an option at least.

grtuck

 

[DDS2BE]

What does it take to get into this program? (stats, extra activites)

 

[DDSSlave]

Generally top 10-15%, 90+ boards, some research, and a good humble personality (ie not going into it for the money).

There are plenty of exceptions to these.

 

[c132]

Or.............. Knowing Someone On The Inside.........

 

[Biogirl361]

rather than doing three more years of school, and because i want to do a variety of dentistry in addition to ortho, my plan is to go into general practice after dental school and just take tons of CE on ortho, then start offering it in certain cases according to my comfort level. i think ortho would be fun, interesting and a good income maker, but i don't want 3 more years of school and i don't want to do it exclusively.

 

[Gutta Percha]

Biogirl, you are smart. Ortho is great for increasing production and the basics can be learned thru CE. Just get with a good orthodontist and you start doing advanced cases. Orthos can make a ton of money, but I think the secret is out and GP's are going to start doing more ortho just like they do with endo now (NiTi).

 

[GatorDMD]

lets talk money ppl. seriously, how much does an ortho norm net? Is it truly more than Endo or OMS? Anyone know the order of who has the potential to make more? Just curious... I am not at all motivated by money. Just wanted to get an idea before I really start considering which discipline is the best vs GP.

 

[c132]

Ortho can make the most, in my opinion and by the stats. Again, most orthodontist do not work long hours and their numbers are WAY up there.

 

[mdina]

Hi Everyone,

I am a foreign trained dentist. I still have to do the 2 yr qualifying program, either in the States or Canada. After that, I also want to specialize into ortho. I hear though that you need to have connections if you want patients bec you rely on other dentists to send them to you and that once you specialize there is no turning back to general dentistry. Is that true? It does not seem right to me.
But then how does it work? A graduated orthodontist with a lot of loan, who cannot open her office right away-that would be me most likely..how would I start off?

 

[Dr.SpongeBobDDS]

I would have to say ortho has the most potential. With endo and OMS you are limited by the number of procedures you can physically perform. With ortho, there is almost no limit to the number of cases you can start. Assuming you are solely motivated by money and willing to delegate practically everything, you just keep adding more and more staff to take care of things.

Legal? Yes. Unethical? Probably. Disturbingly common? Yes. Will anyone on these boards do this? Of course not.

 

[ItsGavinC]

Ortho can make the most, in my opinion and by the stats. Again, most orthodontist do not work long hours and their numbers are WAY up there.

I dunno, I think Endo still banks far more than ortho. Whereas a good ortho will see ~100 patients a day, an endo sees far less patients.

For example, let's say an endo sees 7 molar endo cases a day, at $800 a pop. That's $5,600/day. Overhead should be 40-50%, so that leaves $2,800/day. 3 working days a week puts out $8,400/week. Then, factor in a mere 10 weeks of vacation a year (42 working weeks) and that equates to over $350,000/year... all from 7 patients a day.

(Note: granted, molar endo stinks, but if you love it then you can't go wrong).

 

[jpollei]

Gavin,

Your endo numbers seem very low. If you can find an endodontist doing molar endo for only $800 a tooth, you might want to mention the going UCR fees are higher (much). Most charge easily over $1000 for that procedure...many GP's near $1000. And remember, of the "7 patients" you mentioned per day, many may need more than one tooth, with that charge per tooth. (Less time for more teeth, less average overhead, etc.) So what I'm saying is your calculation seems to be an "at minimum." Not bad!

Basically, I'd say $350,000 is very conservative for endo. And I agree, they do seem to make more than ortho...however twiddle fingers or all thumbs, both do well enough.

 

[GatorDMD]

so what kind of numbers will OMS push in comparison? I keep hearing Ortho is #1 then Endo is #1 then OMS! I guess it depends on what you put into it but if endo charges that much for RCT.. then OMS must charge the same for extractions. They seem pretty busy but I guess when you factor in overhead it will drain the gross income down more than the other 2 huh?

 

[ItsGavinC]

Gavin,

Your endo numbers seem very low. If you can find an endodontist doing molar endo for only $800 a tooth, you might want to mention the going UCR fees are higher (much).

Thanks, I was pulling those numbers out of the sky from what I'd heard several years ago.

So, to get to the $350,000/yr, only work two days a week.

 

[ItsGavinC]

so what kind of numbers will OMS push in comparison? I keep hearing Ortho is #1 then Endo is #1 then OMS!

Your analysis is certainly correct. It depends on how the time is spend, as well as overhead. Endo has a leg up on ortho and OMS simply because it typically has THE lowest overhead of any specialty. That's an advantage from a financial standpoint.

 

[grtuck]

I can only say what I have heard, but one of the faculty at my school specifically told me that right now endo is #1, then OMS, then ortho for yearly earnings. I'm not sure the number of hours worked though. He said it could change though (it fluctuates over time).

Ah, the joy of speculation...

grtuck

 

[Dr.SpongeBobDDS]

The thing to keep in mind is that no one is getting a guarantee of anything by going into a specialty. The range of earnings for all these areas (including GP) is so huge that it really doesn't make sense to base your choice of specialty on which has the highest average net. You have no way of knowing if you are going to be on the low end or high end of any of these ranges so you might as well choose something you like.

 

[Mr.E]

I'm a pre-dental student and was wondering if "specialty training" (i.e. residencies) such as ortho or endo pay the student a yearly stipend or salary? Or is this just considered more schooling, hence more tuition costs for the student? If they do pay the student (resident) a anual salary, what is it? If they don't, is there aditional financial aid available for dental students who have an already outragoues amount in debt?

Thanks ahead.

 

[texas_dds]

good question, here is the sad answer

many residencies paid stipends through "graduate medical education - GME" funding, which was cut recently - hence no $stipend$ for MOST ortho or endo. however most pedos, oms, gprs, aegds, etc. do pay something. Basically if the residency has anything to do w/a hospital, the program is better able to pay a stipend.

so if you are like me, 100K already borrowed and looking at thousands more in ortho school living expenses and anywhere from 0-20 thousand bucks/year in tuition, i am pretty tired of student loans. i dont feel so bad for making above average $ in the future - i will need to pay this all off!!

 

[DocDrtySanchez]

I'm currently in my first year of ortho training. I graduated from dental school in May and I'd be happy to answer any questions regarding the application process, interviews, etc. Good luck to those who are applying..perhaps I'll be interviewing some of you in a couple months.

 

[texas_dds]

doc sanchez:
thanks for posting
a few questions:
-any surprises? any questions you would ask now that you didn't a year ago?
-is it bad to say youve wanted to do ortho for a long time at the interview?
-any other interviewing tips?

 

[jk5177]

From someone else: "Generally top 10-15%, 90+ boards, some research, and a good humble personality (ie not going into it for the money)."


Someone earlier wrote about the stats required to get into ortho. Is it really that hard?

 

[grtuck]

From the ortho residents I know, that is what you should shoot for. There are always exceptions and variation, but that should be your goal from what I understand.

grtuck

 

[koobpheej]

i think that i would like to be an ortho or endo... we'll see, i've only been in d school about 1 month. but as my wife and i are expecting or second child this year, i don't think i will be bale to swing thee grades. can anyone comment on getting into ortho/endo via GPR/AEGD without the stellar class rank.

 

[ItsGavinC]

i think that i would like to be an ortho or endo... we'll see, i've only been in d school about 1 month. but as my wife and i are expecting or second child this year, i don't think i will be bale to swing thee grades. can anyone comment on getting into ortho/endo via GPR/AEGD without the stellar class rank.

With endo you almost have to do a GPR/AEGD, or at least have a year of practice experience in order to be accepted. In fact, this is a pre-req to even apply to many of the endo programs. Still, even with the experience, a high rank is needed.

 

[dunson]

a family friend of mine is an orthodontist...he splits 6 days a week between two offices....nets 600K
oh and hes only 36 or so=not too bad

i know another guy who ive heard has offers between 400 and 500 for endo...

either way thats a whole lot of $

 

[texas_dds]

6 days would be too much for me
i need my weekends!
i hope to be the type of orthodontist that spends more than the average time w/a patient (not a fan of wham-bam-thank-you-mom ortho practices)
i may not rake in 600k
but i know i wont starve

seriously though, my applied practice management class is scaring me about opening my own place: tens of thousands in various insurance premiums each year (disability, life, workers comp, business, malpractice, and dont forget aflac - lol) and all the staggeringly huge bank notes you have to take out - and i thought my student loans were high...ya everyone says ortho makes so much $$$, but now that our grad stipends are gone, you start out in debt to your neck!
equipment costs, lawyers and cpas, employee embezzlement, the hiring and firing - i could go on and on - sorry, sometimes i think about detouring into academia

go sooners (yes i live in texas)

 

[DrJeff]

Gavin,

Your endo numbers seem very low. If you can find an endodontist doing molar endo for only $800 a tooth, you might want to mention the going UCR fees are higher (much). Most charge easily over $1000 for that procedure...many GP's near $1000. And remember, of the "7 patients" you mentioned per day, many may need more than one tooth, with that charge per tooth. (Less time for more teeth, less average overhead, etc.) So what I'm saying is your calculation seems to be an "at minimum." Not bad!

Basically, I'd say $350,000 is very conservative for endo. And I agree, they do seem to make more than ortho...however twiddle fingers or all thumbs, both do well enough.

Depends on what part of the country your in. For example in my neck of the woods, New England, especially along the Boston-New York Corridor, thats a low figure, heck even me as a "lowly GP" charges more than that for a molar endo, and the specialists that I refer to get in the neighborhood of $1300 for a molar. One of my classmates who just recently after 6 years of private practice in Northen Maine went back to do an endo residency was getting $600 for a molar at her general practice, and if she goes back to Maine to practice after residency will probably be in the $800 range. Oh yes, and for the joy of living with bears and mega mosquitos in Maine, she makes ridiculous amount of $$ a year (just under 300,000 and thats one 3.5 days a week, and thats after her buy in $$ was paid out too )

 

[jpollei]

Must admit I don't know many folks in Maine. Those numbers were primarily from "mid- to large-market" (>250,000 population) practitioners that I know. But sure, there'll be some fluctuation with location. Sounds like even at a lower fee ($800 per), she's still doing just fine, though.

 

[toothtutor]

Do you know anything about the OEC programs? I have been looking into various ortho programs and can't find out much about that particular program. How did you narrow down your choices...what criteria did you use?

 

[texas_dds]

about OEC, you can read a lot more about this on other threads
and you will find that a lot of people on this board (and elsewhere) are really down on the whole idea of orthodontic education being sold out like this
if you seriously want to be an orthodontist, you owe it to yourself to go the traditional route and AVOID OEC residencies (this means Jacksonville - which is at a community college; also UNLV and Colorado)
for all the hard work that it takes, dont jeopardize yourself by participating in such a shady situation

 

[jpollei]

Amen to texas_dds

 

[nug]

about OEC, you can read a lot more about this on other threads
and you will find that a lot of people on this board (and elsewhere) are really down on the whole idea of orthodontic education being sold out like this
if you seriously want to be an orthodontist, you owe it to yourself to go the traditional route and AVOID OEC residencies (this means Jacksonville - which is at a community college; also UNLV and Colorado)
for all the hard work that it takes, dont jeopardize yourself by participating in such a shady situation

what is the deal with jacksonville, UNLV and Colorodo? Whay are they shady?

 

[DDSSlave]

http://www.ada.org/prof/resources/pubs/adanews/adanewsarticle.asp?articleid=918

"Last year, the American Association of Orthodontists filed formal complaints with the U.S. Department of Education and CDA asserting that, among other things, the CDA erred when it granted preliminary provisional approval to Jacksonville.

Accrediting JU was not in compliance with Standard 1-1, said the AAO complaint..."

The AAO felt JU was not up to accreditation standards, and (from what I understand) for first time the ADA ignored the AAO and "granted preliminary provisional approval" anyway. You can bet the AAO isn't just sitting around saying "oh well".

There is something seriously wrong when a corporation dictates what you will learn in residency. Take all this for what it's worth, but needless to say, these programs aren't the most respected in the field.

 

[drben]

Irrespective of whatever financial incentive OEC/OCA provides I can tell you that it is not the type of atmosphere that any self-respecting orthodontist would want to work in. As an orthodontist in private practice myself, I can't imagine working a predetermined time in an OCA clinic to repay my "scholarship"... The OCA/Jasper Lazarra model of orthodontics is NOT the way to go; if it comes down to doing OEC or not doing orthodontics at all you are much better off doing GP for a while and re-evaluating.

B. White, DDS, MSD

 

[texas_dds]

another concern i have w/OEC residencies (mostly w/jacksonville) is the potention lack of exposure to more complicated cases - such as surgical or pros-related cases. you can see these when you are in a big dental school setting, but i sort of doubt that when you are at a community college w/a hygiene school (in the case of jacksonville)
i appreciate the previous post writer, as an orthodontist, urging students to do it properly or dont do it at all.

 

[jpollei]

So that this doesn't turn into another OEC-related thread, does anyone know how to post a link to that old thread for those who might not have viewed it yet? Saves being redundant. Then we can spend our time reading people quabble back and forth on OMS-related threads about biospies and whether OMFS's are physicians. Good times.

 

[USAF_Dentman]

6 days would be too much for me
i need my weekends!
i hope to be the type of orthodontist that spends more than the average time w/a patient (not a fan of wham-bam-thank-you-mom ortho practices)
i may not rake in 600k

Didnt mean to bump this but i just love people who make FUNNY typos..

Its supposed to be "wham-bam-thnk-you-MAAM"... NOT MOM..LOLolol