Why don't more people go into EM? Why is EM not more competitive?

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aegistitan

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If your goals include: money and getting paid on a per hour basis, or shift work, and you do not care about working 70 - 80 hours a week, I don't see why EM isn't more popular. To me it seems like the best specialty to rake the money in.

Why EM? An EM doc working locum tenens, and perhaps some other form of local shift work (to switch up what gets taxed in what manner, 1099, W2 etc.) could net 700k-800k/year. How? There is locums work available that pays 250+, sometimes 300+/hr. Working 22 12 hour shifts a month, that only comes out to 66 hours/week; 700k is possible. The only caveat is that the contracts are short, so you will need to switch your work place a lot. Living a nomadic lifestyle. Moreover EM is not a long/grueling residency, it's not as competitive as say derm or some surgical specialty, you can pay your loans off faster, no need to do research in medical school, there is an EM "shortage" right now, etc.

To be honest, after reading all of these figures I struggle to understand why more people don't opt for this, working for half a year and making just as much as other docs do, while taking the rest of the year off to do whatever you want sounds pretty great to me. Being able to work less shifts than a resident, say 17/month and being able to pay off your loans in one year sounds great to me. An extra five years of living like a resident and you could essentially retire at age 35. Why isn't this option more popular? Is it because of the lack of family time?

Some fun quotes and threads:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/locum-tenens-forever.1111083/
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/economics-of-outrageous-locum-tenens-hourly-rates.1116746/

EM Locums is not too difficult. It will require travel away from where you are living. It will require flexibility. But you can make more money doing less shift working with a group.

Taking away Benefits, i would make as much doing 5 locums shifts as I do working 14 in my group.

Not a bad way to live. I know some who works alot as locums and make 750K. i know some who make 300k Doing locums and take 1/2 of the year off.

There is just not the same certainty and you never know how long the high pay will last..

Not Hard at all.

I have started doing some Locums and the money can be crazy. For 2015, I will make alittle north of 100K doing 2 shifts a month.

I have a friend who is killing himself at 22-24 shifts a month and he will pull in close to $1 mil at $300/hr. Yeah it sucks and I am sure he will be burned out soon but he is raking it in. But doing 17 shifts a month is doable and you will still pull in north of 700K.

I would never do 17 shifts a month b/c I have family and kids are important. But if you are single, want to make money as the going is good, why not. Pretend you are a resident for another 5 yr and make over 700K. When I was a resident, I worked 20 shifts a month and still had to go to meetings and lectures, read at night, do EMS runs, etc.

As a resident I would have killed to work 17 shifts a month.

No way to predict the future. Never pick a field when you are a med student b/c of finances. Todays EM could be tomorrows Pathology.

Speaking of now, there are many options to do well financially. I can only speak for the south but

300/hr is not difficult to find. Sure these places are not well staffed and specialists may be lax. It may sound scary but its really no biggie.

Locums are plenitful. You can work 10 dys a month and make 500K/yr. I know people who work 15/month for 3 months and take 3 months off for a long vacation.

As I am married with kids, my choices to do locums is less. I still try to do 1-2 shifts a month and make as much in 1 shift as i do in 3 shift at my current job. If things stay good with locums, i see myself going full locums in 3-5 yrs when kids are older. I can make my own schedule, work when I want. take all holidays off. Work only mornings if I want. I realize that I have to deal with the uncertainty of not having a secure job but hopefully in 3-5 yrs, My home will be paid off and have 1-2 Mil in retirement. travels would suck but i would work 4-8 dys a month which is bearable. I have my foot in the door so even if they stop paying such high rates, my contract is still signed.

If i just left residency and had nothing to hold me down to one place, i would do locums. Work really hard for 1-2 yrs. Save up/pay off loans. Then do 10dys/month and travel around the world.

I definitely miss this forum a lot! I was even able to get just enough internet at at the far ends of the Earth to read this thread and post. Currently I'm sitting in Abu Dhabi on my way to London.

My lifestyle has definitely improved since doing locum tenans full time. Whereas I used to work 18-20 shifts per month before, I now work 12, and with the bump in hourly still make more money. I also make my own schedule and work when I want and how often I want.

Fellow Emergency Physicians, join me and break our shackles of CMG bondage! They've decided to commoditize us, so we should return the favor. Yes we're commodities, and the going rate is $300/hour, not the $150/hour they used to pay me after deducting "administrative fees". Make them compete for our warm bodies to fill their Sh*tty contracts! Hell, there's no reason we can't make it $500/hour if we are smart.

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Umm, EM is rather competitive.

IIRC, the year I matched, there were exactly 2 unfilled residency spots in the entire mainland US (3 in PR)
 
I'll just shoot from the hip.

#1 Most people don't want to work 66 hours/week
#2 Most people don't want to live as nomads
#3 EM shifts tend to be much more brutal per hour than any other specialty, at least that is what EM residents constantly tell the surgical residents complaining about how much they work.
#4 Emergency medicine is a particular kind of medicine and many people, if not most don't particularly care for it. They are looking for more longitudinal care.
#5 I certainly can't speak for everyone else, but I went into Vascular Surgery because I love what I do. Money was never a consideration.
 
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Yeah, I always thought EM was considered more competitive than not. Residency isn't long, no call, good money. Patient populations sucks though. Also, not that fun trying to raise a family when you're working overnight shifts and what not.
 
Umm, EM is rather competitive.

IIRC, the year I matched, there were exactly 2 unfilled residency spots in the entire mainland US (3 in PR)

This doc obviously knows more about this than me, but I can tell you just from being a dumb pre-med and poking around on here that EM is definitely competitive.
 
Theres a lot of reasons why people go into various specialties. They all have their pros and cons. It just depends on how you as a person, value these pros/cons. For some the weird hours, high stress, and different type of care are such major cons that its not what they want. I get it. I am particularly interested in EM, but I can absolutely see how its not for everyone. And these are just the reasons that I understand not being in Medicine yet. I've heard the intra-Medical reasons are a whole nother ballgame. If that makes any sense.
 
This doc obviously knows more about this than me, but I can tell you just from being a dumb pre-med and poking around on here that EM is definitely competitive.

I suppose I stated what I meant wrong. Perhaps I should've asked "why isn't EM more competitive than it already is" given EM's ability to rake the money in, according to the NRMP data (http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uplo...gram-NRMP-Results-and-Data-SMS-2014-Final.pdf) 93% of people that want to match EM match, the average step 1 score is 225 for those who matched in 2014, which is lower than the average overall step 1 of USMD graduates - which is I believe 228?
 
As a guy who moonlights, I can attest that not having patient continuity is terrifying. The liability is huge in urgent care...and much higher in the ER. You generally aren't appreciated much by your patients. You just work your butt off to make your money. Burn out rate is incredibly high.
 
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I wouldn't do EM, not because of longterm patient continuity, but because you lack the ability to follow even through a single hospital stay.
 
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- EM burnout.
- EM recovery days after a long overnight shift you are recovering the next day. 10 and 12 hours shifts can also leave you exhausted.

The average hours worked are 120-144 hours per month. I stopped read your original post when you said 'Working 22 12 hour shifts a month, that only comes out to 66 hours/week; 700k is possible." No one works 264 hours a month in the ED. They won't last long if they keep that schedule.
 
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Here is an EM schedule.

I work 100-144 hours a month. I have partners than work as little at 50. Some of my partners work no nights, but everyone works weekends and holidays.

Here's my October Schedule

1 Off
2 Off
3 7pm-3am
4 Off (recovering)
5 Off
6 6a-2p
7 Off
8 2p-10p
9 2p-10 p
10 10p-6a
11 Off (recovering)
12 Meetings 9a-1p
13 6a-2p
14 off
15 Off
16 11a-7p
17 7p-3a
18 7p-3a
19 7p-3a
20 off (recovering)
21 off
22 off
23 2p-10p
24 off
25 off
26 11a-7p
27 10p-6a
28 off (recovering)
29 off
30 7p-3a
31 7p-3a

Total: 15 shifts, 120 hours + ~10 hours total staying late finishing up + 4 hours unpaid meetings

There are worse ways to earn a living. But don't discount the cost of those "recovery" days.
 
I will second the above sentiments about not being able to follow your patients, therefore no opportunity to build relationships with your patients, which is something that many people like about practicing medicine. Working as a scribe in the ED for 3 months really turned me off to EM. Every doc is under pressure by administration to see as many patients as possible in as little time as possible. In addition, there are often arbitrary requirements that docs have to follow in order to meet the standards set by the hospital, like making sure they have a chart open on a patient with a specific great time recorded (whether or not anything was actually done for the patient) - this kind of stuff tends to piss docs off and understandably so as it just makes their job harder and does nothing to improve patient care (just the bottom line of the hospital). Lastly, depending on what charting system is employed, the docs often have 2-4 hours of charting to finish AFTER their shift is over, so many of them really end up working like 70+ hours a week.

Edit: I will add that the docs that I have found that are best suited for EM are very type A personalities that are also HIGHLY organized. For example, one doc I know has a laptop in the room with him and is somehow able to put in orders and talk with the patient simultaneously, then once he leaves the room he immediately gets on the chart that I (the scribe) have been working on and makes quick edits as we go. People like that who are able to keep up with the work flow as it comes seem to be the most happy. This is very difficult to do in a hectic emergency room environment.
 
I used to do horrible circadian shifts while deployed overseas as military. I will never do that again, if it can be avoided. People that have never experienced frequent circadian shifts over a long time period can never know what it's like. My sleep schedule would move by about 6 hrs every other day. You're literally always recovering. Your mind feels like it's in a fog, for months. Your body becomes less healthy and ages faster. You have to abuse caffeine to stay alert, triggering other negative health effects. It just sucks.

Furthermore, while you may be young and gung-ho now, you're eventually going to settle down and marry. You won't want to have to work nights, because you'll miss being able to do things with your kids (who will also wake you up at 6am when they're young, just after you've gone to sleep). You won't want to live like a nomad, because your wife and kids will miss you. If you do it anyway, you could easily end up divorced. After all, there's a *reason* why the pay is so high... because the vast majority of people don't want to do it.
 
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I used to do horrible circadian shifts while deployed overseas as military. I will never do that again, if it can be avoided. People that have never experienced frequent circadian shifts over a long time period can never know what it's like. My sleep schedule would move by about 6 hrs every other day. You're literally always recovering. Your mind feels like it's in a fog, for months. Your body becomes less healthy and ages faster. You have to abuse caffeine to stay alert, triggering other negative health effects. It just sucks.

Furthermore, while you may be young and gung-ho now, you're eventually going to settle down and marry. You won't want to have to work nights, because you'll miss being able to do things with your kids (who will also wake you up at 6am when they're young, just after you've gone to sleep). You won't want to live like a nomad, because your wife and kids will miss you. If you do it anyway, you could easily end up divorced. After all, there's a *reason* why the pay is so high... because the vast majority of people don't want to do it.
It's funny, because I really should do something like this.

See, I've never had a sleep schedule. I go to bed at a (very) different time every day (if at all), sleep for a different length of time each night, eat different meals at different times in different combinations. Working a job where I was scheduled 12s at various times, randomly, even sometimes with only 6hrs between shifts, actually prompted me to be more consistent at least with the length of sleep I got, even if I couldn't be consistent with the timing. I was more alert and used about 200mg caffeine once every couple weeks or so. I also ate a lot more regularly and actually remembered to drink water, though, so maybe that was part of it. Plus, the long, busy shifts were always invigorating...I'd end them way more pumped and with more energy than if I'd woken up after an extra 2hrs of sleep. I thought that'd wear off after 6mo or so, but it was true until the day I quit.

I never plan to marry, period. I suppose I may stumble into the right person someday, but I'm not banking on it and I won't participate in this country's messed up marriage tradition anyway. I guess that means kids will be a challenge no matter which direction I choose to take, career-wise.

I've always been a bit of a nomad...never lived in one home more than 3-5yrs, changed states pretty often, even lived in my car for a few months after college. That doesn't bother me. Everything I own fits in my car, and even if I end up with furniture and whatnot like my mother did (against her best intentions), it's one large uHaul. I don't plan to break the mould on this one.

So it fits, lifestyle-wise, with what I like. Too bad I just don't like the specialty quite enough to make it my life. Maybe med school will change my mind!
 
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It is becoming very competitive, our generation loves the instant gratification and lack of commitment ( continuity). It works well for people who like the fast pace and dont mind the random shifts. I thought I wanted to do EM, but during my rotation I found myself wanting to follow the patient upstairs to see what happens/manage their disease. Also, I hated when people came in for BS complaints and thought the diagnosing was rather cookbook.
 
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I hate emergency rooms and working in that environment. So, therefore, I chose not to go into EM
 
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Also, like others said, 66 hours of EM is grueling! I want to work less than 66 hours/week as a physician already, so that in itself wouldn't be seen as a catch anyway....
 
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What do you call evenings, weekends and holidays in EM? Work hours.

Lots has already been mentioned. The thing I wouldn't be able to stand is the triaging. What if you think someone needs admission and the hospitalist says no? Now what? When do you plan to do notes? Then you take a look at the notes and realize you have this large document that says absolutely nothing. Literally. But somehow it appeases some faceless paper-pusher somewhere with all the checkboxes that give a fantastic appearance of wonderful care based on how thorough your clicking ability.

I think a lot of people see EM as a lifestyle specialty. I do not believe it is. I thought ED seemed sexy going into medical school. Then I did a rotation forth year and didn't care much for it. Then in residency every time I step foot in the ED in thankful I never ended up there.

But that's just me.
 
Heh, 22 shifts a month... that won't last long at all. Shift work is tough and I consider myself pretty resilient mentally and physically. But those hours, especially night shifts, combined with administrative bs hanging over your head and difficult patients... it'll wear you down to the core of your soul. I usually work three night shifts in a row as a nurse. That's plenty for me. The extra days off in the week are absolutely necessary to recover. I bet I could work more since I'm young and healthy but I would hate myself for it. I do not want that to be the rest of my life. I could definitely see it being tolerable working 8-12ish, or even less if you're family oriented or have other interests. But 22? I'd love to meet the person who is pulling that consistently without drowning himself in alcohol or some other bad coping mechanism.
 
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I used to do horrible circadian shifts while deployed overseas as military. I will never do that again, if it can be avoided. People that have never experienced frequent circadian shifts over a long time period can never know what it's like. My sleep schedule would move by about 6 hrs every other day. You're literally always recovering. Your mind feels like it's in a fog, for months. Your body becomes less healthy and ages faster. You have to abuse caffeine to stay alert, triggering other negative health effects. It just sucks.

Furthermore, while you may be young and gung-ho now, you're eventually going to settle down and marry. You won't want to have to work nights, because you'll miss being able to do things with your kids (who will also wake you up at 6am when they're young, just after you've gone to sleep). You won't want to live like a nomad, because your wife and kids will miss you. If you do it anyway, you could easily end up divorced. After all, there's a *reason* why the pay is so high... because the vast majority of people don't want to do it.


I think someone mentioned earlier, but do you have to work evenings? I know that there are some nurses at the ER I volunteer at that only work during the day shifts. Can't ER docs do the same? Like have a designated team of people that work the night shift?
 
I think someone mentioned earlier, but do you have to work evenings? I know that there are some nurses at the ER I volunteer at that only work during the day shifts. Can't ER docs do the same? Like have a designated team of people that work the night shift?
Might not be able to find enough people willing to work all nights, all the time. I know the ED I worked in had it as a part of everyone's contract...instead of a call schedule, they had to agree to a certain number of night shifts per month.
I never did figure out why their schedules were otherwise so incredibly random, though. Like, I have no idea why they couldn't figure out a normal weekly schedule and sub in the nights instead of jerking people around to a different shift every day or so.
 
Might not be able to find enough people willing to work all nights, all the time. I know the ED I worked in had it as a part of everyone's contract...instead of a call schedule, they had to agree to a certain number of night shifts per month.
I never did figure out why their schedules were otherwise so incredibly random, though. Like, I have no idea why they couldn't figure out a normal weekly schedule and sub in the nights instead of jerking people around to a different shift every day or so.


I thought maybe they'd be able to find a group of people willing to always work nights, I guess since it seems that way for nurses. Maybe it has to do with how much experience you have and how privileged you are to not have to work nights
 
I thought maybe they'd be able to find a group of people willing to always work nights, I guess since it seems that way for nurses. Maybe it has to do with how much experience you have and how privileged you are to not have to work nights

At least in the ER I work in, nurses get paid an overnight differential for those night shifts, which is why many of them choose those shifts. They end up work less hours overall and earn as much, if not more, than their day shift peers. For some nurses, this is worth the trade-off, and for others it is not, but that is how the hospital gets a pool of night nurses.

The doctors, on the other hand, get paid the same regardless of whether they are working day shifts or night shifts, so there is far less enticement to cover the night shifts on a regular basis unless required to do so.
 
At least in the ER I work in, nurses get paid an overnight differential for those night shifts, which is why many of them choose those shifts. They end up work less hours overall and earn as much, if not more, than their day shift peers. For some nurses, this is worth the trade-off, and for others it is not, but that is how the hospital gets a pool of night nurses.

The doctors, on the other hand, get paid the same regardless of whether they are working day shifts or night shifts, so there is far less enticement to cover the night shifts on a regular basis unless required to do so.
In fact, if it's pay-for-service, night docs often make a lot less due to the lower traffic volumes (and decreased access to other hospital services) at night.
 
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I'll just shoot from the hip.

#1 Most people don't want to work 66 hours/week
#2 Most people don't want to live as nomads
#3 EM shifts tend to be much more brutal per hour than any other specialty, at least that is what EM residents constantly tell the surgical residents complaining about how much they work.
#4 Emergency medicine is a particular kind of medicine and many people, if not most don't particularly care for it. They are looking for more longitudinal care.
#5 I certainly can't speak for everyone else, but I went into Vascular Surgery because I love what I do. Money was never a consideration.


Agree.
ED is an awesome specialty, but it can be so brutal. And that brutality is not including the shift rotations. People can get jaded with all the drug-seekers and other not-so-sweet stuff that rolls into the ED. That part can get old and wear on you after awhile--at least this is what I have seen. Frankly, I think if one is doing ED 60-70 hours or more in a high volume, high acuity center, s/he is heading for severe burnout.

I have to agree that money can't be what drives you to do what you do in life.
 
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I used to do horrible circadian shifts while deployed overseas as military. I will never do that again, if it can be avoided. People that have never experienced frequent circadian shifts over a long time period can never know what it's like. My sleep schedule would move by about 6 hrs every other day. You're literally always recovering. Your mind feels like it's in a fog, for months. Your body becomes less healthy and ages faster. You have to abuse caffeine to stay alert, triggering other negative health effects. It just sucks.
.

And for me, I can hang pretty well until 3am. After that, I have to keep moving or the fog really starts to settle in big time. But it's the playing catch-up that is also troubling; b/c while you are trying to recuperate, well, there goes your life and whatever else you need to get done--or it gets done kind of half-azz at times. That's frustrating too.

There's a reason they pay these docs pretty well; plus they have to put up with a lot of other crap. It's kind of sad, b/c if you are in a good center, you can see and do a lot. But to do that forever, well. . .
 
I think someone mentioned earlier, but do you have to work evenings? I know that there are some nurses at the ER I volunteer at that only work during the day shifts. Can't ER docs do the same? Like have a designated team of people that work the night shift?


That seems to depend on the center/hospital. The needs of the department will dictate scheduling. Also, for some hospitals, unionization is a factor. Mostly getting full days is either some strange luck-out or a matter of seniority w/ nursing. Sometimes the day crew may be a more dysfunctional group with which to work, and so people actually end up taking the nights or doing more off-shift rotation. The people with whom you work can make a huge difference; b/c the job is already demanding enough. This happens is some critical care units too.
 
As far as working all those shifts, with all do respect, OP, you have never worked as a physician, let alone as an ER doctor, so trust us when we tell you that it's very hard, stressful, and exhausting. If you get to med school and do an ER rotation you will know what it's like.

I worked in a rural ER for 6 months after my residency, and before a fellowship. It was fun for a while but exhausting. This ER was about 2 1/2 hours away, so I did 24 hours shifts, usually all alone. I would often do 24 on, 8 off, 12 on. All I can say is, it was not easy, although I did get a few good stories out of being there. I never want to work in the ER again.

The ER can be very stressful. Personally, I don't think I would find the sick patients stressful. It's probably not that hard to deal with a cardiac arrest or a bad trauma. I would worry more about the mild gastritis, pleuritic chest pain, the cough, the headache, the mild shortness of breath. All the people you send out everyday with nothing seriously wrong, who die an hour later at home, or come in the next day with a perforated organ or in septic shock. The baby with the virus you send home who comes in the next day and dies.

Or the opposite problem: you wlll be arguing constantly with the specialists trying to get them to admit patients that you think are sick, but that they want you to send home.

Plus, all the specialists know more about the diseases than you do, so everyone is always talking down to you You're always misdiagnosing, always being criticised for not doing the right exam, the right xrays, or ordering the right tests. They complain because you thought the sick patient was really not that bad, or that the guy with a minor injury needed to be admitted. You will call the surgeon down because of life-threatening bleeding, and she will roll her eyes and put a bandage on and send them home. etc........

You see a lot of homeless people, uninsured, addicts, and drug seekers. Lots of psych patients, who, incidentally, are a lot less interesting in real life than they are on TV. Lots of people who need a bath. People with maggots and lice. etc.

One advantage is that you're an employee, so you don't have to set up an office or hire staff. You usually don't have to stay late. You can go on vacation and not worry about your practice or your patients, and you can pick up and move any time. You can easily cut back to only one or two days a week, or a month, for that matter. The downside: you can also be fired any time.

By the way, all the cool stuff that you see doctors do in the ER on TV shows, almost all of that is actually done by surgeons.
 
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Partial list:

1. Less money than many other specialties.
2. Disturbing stuff happens regularly.
3. ER is the first stop for most epidemics, pandemics, unknown ailments, and yes, yummy things like, lice, parasites, and TB. Doctors, staff, and indirectly the doctor's family, sometimes catch serious things from patients. As seen with ebola, you're not always prepared, equipment-wise, training-wise etc., for what comes through the door.
4. Disaster after disaster comes through the door on some occasions and that can mean high expectations and vigorous work.
 
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So what exactly is so exhausting about EM that makes it more brutal than surgery? The examples listed don't seem too bad given the compensation, being talked down to doesn't seem too bad. Dealing with drug seeking behavior is a given, and common in other practice settings, primary care deals with it a lot too.
 
12 hour nights and weekends and holidays FOREVER UNTIL YOU DIE.
Drunks and drug seekers and patients that should have seen their PCP all day erryday.
Extremely high liability with very little control- you're handing off unstable patients or possibly sending someone home that might have something serious every damn day, and that'll keep you up at night. You have very little control over a given patient- they're only yours while they're within your domain, but once they head home or upstairs, your ability to do anything is gone yet the liability is still yours should something go south.
Lots of surprise deaths and grieving family if you're in a larger department. Most deaths on the floors, families have some amount of time to cope. In the ED, when a patient passes, it is very often a shock to the family. Handling grieving loved ones that are just being told, out of nowhere, that someone they cared about no longer exists really isn't easy. And you'll be doing a lot of it.

It takes a certain kind of doctor. A lot of people in med school right now seem to be drawn towards the hours or the pay or the romantic notions they picked up from TV. At least a quarter of my class wants to do ED medicine from what I gather. I predict a great deal of disappointment down the road, as they realize the job isn't all that they thought it was.

Oh, and as WS noted- patient satisfaction surveys. They'll be the bane of your existence, as most of your patients are expecting a visit to be half an hour when it'll really take 6-8 hours. They'll spend most of their time just waiting. The drunks'll give you bad reviews (if they can be reached) because they don't get everything they want, same goes for the drug seekers and many of the psych patients. The ones you can help will see you for all of five minutes an hour, if that, and will feel completely neglected by you. It makes it impossible to make them happy, and administration will constantly be up your *** about it.

It should be noted that this dissatisfaction, coupled with your lack of time and continuity of care, combined with your often being the initial person trying to diagnose or treat complex illnesses- well, all that culminates into the perfect storm for malpractice cases.
 
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So what exactly is so exhausting about EM that makes it more brutal than surgery? The examples listed don't seem too bad given the compensation, being talked down to doesn't seem too bad. Dealing with drug seeking behavior is a given, and common in other practice settings, primary care deals with it a lot too.

No offense but you literally have had EM physicians chime in and tell you exactly what is exhausting about EM. Have you been in an OR before? While obviously surgery is no walk in the park, surgeons have the "luxury" of 2-4+ hour long cases whereas EM physicians will see 8+ patients in that same time frame. That's one patient vs. 8, one family vs. 8, a mostly unconscious patient vs. 8 patients of varying sick/yelling/crying/etc, etc etc.

Money=/=happiness
 
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No offense but you literally have had EM physicians chime in and tell you exactly what is exhausting about EM. Have you been in an OR before? While obviously surgery is no walk in the park, surgeons have the "luxury" of 2-4+ hour long cases whereas EM physicians will see 8+ patients in that same time frame. That's one patient vs. 8, one family vs. 8, a mostly unconscious patient vs. 8 patients of varying sick/yelling/crying/etc, etc etc.

Money=/=happiness
The volume is a huge part of it that I totally forgot about.

Anywhere else in the hospital, you have a set of patients you deal with, from start to finish of your shift. You read up on them at the beginning of the day, follow them throughout for updates and whatnot, then hand off those same patients at the end of your shift. You'll get a few new admits, and do a few discharges, which you'll have to do a bit of extra work for, but a lot of your patient load (depending on the area) will stay relatively the same start-to-finish.

In the ED, you've got a new patient every few minutes. Digging through charts and tests and introducing yourself and getting to know them. And it isn't like primary care, where you've got thorough notes and a longstanding history- no, these patients are new (aside from the regulars), and they turn over every few hours as they get discharged or sent upstairs. This leads to a constant and never-ending stream of work. In most decent sized hospitals, this amounts to no real downtime. Even finding time to eat lunch is near impossible many days, because there's so much damn work to do.

And any progress you make- sending a patient upstairs or home- isn't really progress, because that just opens up another bed for a patient to be triaged in your direction, so you can do the whole Sisyphean task all over again, start to finish, day after day, forever.

:lol:66 hours of EM a week :lol:
 
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Yea, working 22 12 hour shifts a month is utterly brutal. I'm a scribe in an ED and most docs here only work some low-teen shifts a month; Granted, from what I gather, the pay is relatively better here to even out working less shfits but still.
 
As far as working all those shifts, with all do respect, OP, you have never worked as a physician, let alone as an ER doctor, so trust us when we tell you that it's very hard, stressful, and exhausting. If you get to med school and do an ER rotation you will know what it's like.

I worked in a rural ER for 6 months after my residency, and before a fellowship. It was fun for a while but exhausting. This ER was about 2 1/2 hours away, so I did 24 hours shifts, usually all alone. I would often do 24 on, 8 off, 12 on. All I can say is, it was not easy, although I did get a few good stories out of being there. I never want to work in the ER again.

The ER can be very stressful. Personally, I don't think I would find the sick patients stressful. It's probably not that hard to deal with a cardiac arrest or a bad trauma. I would worry more about the mild gastritis, pleuritic chest pain, the cough, the headache, the mild shortness of breath. All the people you send out everyday with nothing seriously wrong, who die an hour later at home, or come in the next day with a perforated organ or in septic shock. The baby with the virus you send home who comes in the next day and dies.

Or the opposite problem: you wlll be arguing constantly with the specialists trying to get them to admit patients that you think are sick, but that they want you to send home.

Plus, all the specialists know more about the diseases than you do, so everyone is always talking down to you You're always misdiagnosing, always being criticised for not doing the right exam, the right xrays, or ordering the right tests. They complain because you thought the sick patient was really not that bad, or that the guy with a minor injury needed to be admitted. You will call the surgeon down because of life-threatening bleeding, and she will roll her eyes and put a bandage on and send them home. etc........

You see a lot of homeless people, uninsured, addicts, and drug seekers. Lots of psych patients, who, incidentally, are a lot less interesting in real life than they are on TV. Lots of people who need a bath. People with maggots and lice. etc.

One advantage is that you're an employee, so you don't have to set up an office or hire staff. You usually don't have to stay late. You can go on vacation and not worry about your practice or your patients, and you can pick up and move any time. You can easily cut back to only one or two days a week, or a month, for that matter. The downside: you can also be fired any time.

By the way, all the cool stuff that you see doctors do in the ER on TV shows, almost all of that is actually done by surgeons.

OP...read the above and read it well. I highlighted a part that I believe you should strongly consider.

When I moonlight...I never worry about the patients I admit. Those patients are taken care of. At least one shift a day I have a patient that is on the cusp...and I decide not to admit them. You know...the guy with a lobectomy who is now presenting with pneumonia. Vitals look good...diagnosis looks straight forward. He is stable for outpatient care...until he dies in his sleep the next night. Or how about the girl with abdominal pain who doesn't have insurance that doesn't want to go to the ER because it would cost too much money. You end up doing everything in your limited ability to work the girl up. You don't have a CT/US...so you never completely know if they don't have a pelvic/abdominal emergency. The average patient you would send the patient to the ER for better diagnostics, but when they refuse due to cost...what do you do? You document the heck out of it and wish for the best.

If you don't think about your patients and don't want to think about your patients when you get home...you are probably a good fit for ER. If you do, like me, then you are a poor fit.
 
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Talking down to is never a good thing...
 
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It is incredibly naive to go into a certain specialty, or medicine in general, solely for the money. Especially with all the good advice stated above.
 
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Partial list:

1. Less money than many other specialties.
2. Disturbing stuff happens regularly.
3. ER is the first stop for most epidemics, pandemics, unknown ailments, and yes, yummy things like, lice, parasites, and TB. Doctors, staff, and indirectly the doctor's family, sometimes catch serious things from patients. As seen with ebola, you're not always prepared, equipment-wise, training-wise etc., for what comes through the door.
4. Disaster after disaster comes through the door on some occasions and that can mean high expectations and vigorous work.


Yea, unless you work in a big trauma center most of what you'll see is nowhere near as exciting unfortunately. Nowadays many EM docs are PCP's for the uninsured/medical/medicaid pts. A LOT of UTI's, viral illnesses, bronchitis, abscess's, URI's, homeless people, drug seekers, schizo's etc etc
 
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- Jack of all trades, master of none
- You will never be the final say in anything.
- Lack of respect from fellow physicians
- Lack of respect from lay public
- Unappreciative patients
- Dangerous workplace environment, unruly patients who believe their behavior is okay, violent patients
 
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If your goals include: money and getting paid on a per hour basis, or shift work, and you do not care about working 70 - 80 hours a week, I don't see why EM isn't more popular. To me it seems like the best specialty to rake the money in.

Why EM? An EM doc working locum tenens, and perhaps some other form of local shift work (to switch up what gets taxed in what manner, 1099, W2 etc.) could net 700k-800k/year. How? There is locums work available that pays 250+, sometimes 300+/hr. Working 22 12 hour shifts a month, that only comes out to 66 hours/week; 700k is possible. The only caveat is that the contracts are short, so you will need to switch your work place a lot. Living a nomadic lifestyle. Moreover EM is not a long/grueling residency, it's not as competitive as say derm or some surgical specialty, you can pay your loans off faster, no need to do research in medical school, there is an EM "shortage" right now, etc.

To be honest, after reading all of these figures I struggle to understand why more people don't opt for this, working for half a year and making just as much as other docs do, while taking the rest of the year off to do whatever you want sounds pretty great to me. Being able to work less shifts than a resident, say 17/month and being able to pay off your loans in one year sounds great to me. An extra five years of living like a resident and you could essentially retire at age 35. Why isn't this option more popular? Is it because of the lack of family time?

Some fun quotes and threads:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/locum-tenens-forever.1111083/
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/economics-of-outrageous-locum-tenens-hourly-rates.1116746/lifestyle,

You won't last a year doing 22 12s in a place with the volume and acuity to pay you for that time.

If you're in it for the money and lifestyle, you're probably going to be disappointed by the money and lifestyle. Plus, residency is hard. Medicine is hard. If you're not in it to become the best doc you can, you will hate the job and your patients will suffer.
 
jesus christ guys, it really isn't that bad

I do think you have to be a certain type of person to enjoy it. No one specialty is perfect as every one of them has a lot of pluses and a lot of sacrifice involved with each. Part of your 3rd year is figuring out what you are willing to sacrifice in exchange for what you enjoy. Most people are able to figure out what they love and don't wind up sacrificing many things they find are important to them.
 
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It is becoming very competitive, our generation loves the instant gratification and lack of commitment ( continuity). It works well for people who like the fast pace and dont mind the random shifts. I thought I wanted to do EM, but during my rotation I found myself wanting to follow the patient upstairs to see what happens/manage their disease. Also, I hated when people came in for BS complaints and thought the diagnosing was rather cookbook.

I felt very similarly. I also felt as if the attending population was quite jaded, at least at the county hospital where I did my rotation; some small interest in teaching, but enthusiasm from students was definitely seen as a negative.

And for me, there was no instant gratification in the shifts, or very little. And even when there was, the patient had no idea that we were even doing them a favor; they just assumed that it was part of our job to clean out their earwax or pop a blister and might as well have pledged to come back every week.
 
Worked as an ER nurse for 3 years, dated 3 ER doctors who cheated on me...Yep...not going into ER. I'm all set.
 
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The very foulest you shall smell.
 
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12 REASONS NOT TO GO INTO EMERGENCY MEDICINE:
BY JARABACOA

In a recent thread, a poster asked us to talk him into Emergency Medicine. I think we do a good job of telling people why to go into the field, but a poor job letting them know the realities that make our job tough. So, in an effort to keep it real, here are 12 reasons NOT to go into ER:

12. The ER has now become a sort of convenience-mart for the community, a problem solving center, especially in the department of psychiatry. While the psychiatrists sleep in their beds, you have to deal with psychiatric problems of patients who are on psychiatric holds, or who desire voluntary admission to the hospital. The patient really needs counseling, compassion, a quiet/safe place to re-group, etc., none of which are provided by the Emergency Department. However, psychiatry functions in an 8-5 manner, only wanting to deal with staffing issues when it is convenient for their unit, not the ER.

11. The unfunded EMTALA mandate. I had a 3 month old patient with head injury after her mom fell down a few stairs. The child had a tiny head bleed, and was acting appropriately, feeding, alert, vitals normal. I wanted to transfer to a PICU by ground, which is about 2 hours away. The accepting facility wanted to meet our crew half-way. It was about 20 degrees out with a 40 mile an hour wind, and intermittent snow-flurries. We thought that it would be wise to meet in the ambulance bay of an ER about an hour from us. Our nursing supervisor thought that would be an EMTALA violation if the patient presented on the middle hospital's premises. My nursing supervisor talked to our hospital attorney, who thought it would be a bad idea. I spoke to the ER doc at the middle-ground, who spoke to their hospital attorney, who thought it was OK, as long as another physician had already stabilized the patient. The middle-ground hospital has an adult neuro-surgeon, whereas, we don't have any at all. So, in my mind, it would not violate EMTALA if in the worst-case scenario, the patient deteriorated and needed to by stabilized in the middle-ground ER. But because our hospital attorney thought it was a bad idea, the patient got transferred from ambulance to ambulance in the middle of a McDonald's parking lot with a below zero Fahrenheit wind-chill, carrying the infant across an icy parking lot, instead of in a heated, dry, ambulance bay. The very fact that we talked to our hospital attorney, and they talked to theirs to figure out what to do, speaks volumes about our current medicolegal climate.

I got a call a few months back from a local paramedic, who I trust, who said a woman fell from a significant distance, lost consciousness, then seized. She was given some ativan on scene and she came around, was talking, and only complaining of headache. She was protecting her airway and her vitals were stable, with no abdominal trauma or chest trauma that was obvious on physical or history. He said he was calling the helicopter to meet them at our hospital for emergent transfer to a trauma center with a neurosurgery availability as he thought she was at high risk of head bleed. I said, "Sounds great, get her out of here." A few weeks later, I was informed this was an EMTALA violation and I should have admitted her to our ER, generated paper-work, and then sent her out, to fulfill our EMTALA obligation. If I had told them to avoid our premises, say in a field somewhere, that wouldn't have been an EMTALA violation as they didn't come near our property. The fact that a helicopter pad is the best place to land for a helicopter doesn't factor into the equation.

The fear of breaking federal law gets in the way of doing what is right for the patient.

10. The politics of an ER are complex and painful. We have many bosses. First, you have your ER director. You are also beholden to the CEO and medical staff of the hospital. If they don't like you, they can block you from having hospital privileges at the hospital, even though your director likes you. You also have medical records, and your billing office constantly hounding you to sign this and sign that, and don't order things using that abbreviation, etc. Hospital politics suck everywhere and you can really get thrown under the bus in a hurry.

9. ER nurses can occasionally be difficult to work with. The young ones don't know a lot about setting up chest tubes, central lines for pressure monitoring, etc. and don't catch your mistakes like the more seasoned nurses. The older nurses are often jaded and as they age, they get increasingly @#!*% off that you get paid way more than them, even though they think they could do your job. This is especially bad because you generally have little input over who gets hired, fired, disciplined, talked to, etc. The drama and back-biting amongst nurses is the stuff soap-operas are made of, making a pretty consistently caustic, disfunctional work environment that tends to grind up and spit out a lot of nurses.

8. ER techs can come in two flavors: A. The pre-nurse, pre-med, uber-eager tech who will work their tail off for you in hopes that the experience will further them in life. B. The lackadaisical tech who doesn't quite know what to do with their life, who thinks they may want to be involved in medicine, but doesn't want to work too hard, or doesn't quite have the self-confidence to take the next step. The A's are fun after they have been working for several months, but they turn-over so fast that you get sick of trying to get things done your way. B's get increasingly lazy, and less helpful as time goes on, and unfortunately, stay on longer than A's.

7. You are at the mercy of the randomness of chaos. Our ER announces the arrival of every patient with “Patient in triage” plus or minus “stat”. As I heard 8 people check in one hour yesterday, I would be talking with a patient, and would wince every time I heard the overhead page (I’m single coverage in a ten bed ER). By the eighth, I was cussing more and more vehemently. You don’t get this with an office. You know you have a maximum number of patients that you can be deluged with.

6. Patient satisfaction is currently god in hospitals. ERs consistently have the worst patient satisfaction of any part of the hospital. With emergent patients, I tend to focus on medical care and not on stroking their ego. With non-emergent patients, it is hard for me to keep up the act that I actually care. Anywhere you go, you are going to be constantly barraged by dark-suit business people, and clip-board carrying nurses giving you tips on how to get high scores. No one ever asks the question, are we sure this is the best thing for patient care?

5. EMTALA has castrated our ability to put limits on patient behavior. Because we are legally obligated to see all comers and rule out emergencies, we have to put up with their poor behavior until we can do that. Private offices/physicians can just tell jerks to take a hike. They can screen up front with firm secretaries/nurses that don’t put up with guff, and will tell people “Pay the co-pay or get the heck out of this office. Behave yourself, or we will call the police.”
It is hard to not become jaded by the drunks, personality disorder etc. Sometimes, patients suck your compassion in a manner very akin to dementors straight out of Harry Potter. I don’t know about you guys, but a bad patient interaction can really turn me ornery for hours, or even days (a couple of times, a few weeks for me). You go into medical school with intentions of becoming a compassionate human being and after a really rough shift, you’d rather drop-kick the next patient that checks in for a BS complaint or behaves inappropriately. We are in a similar boat to police officers. We see the absolute worst of society- the rapes, the assault, the addiction, the stupidity, the slothfulness, the manipulative behavior, etc. It’s an environment that could turn Obama Republican. Who are the policy makers and think-tank people in this country? The high-brow professors and executive types who spend all day in meetings, lectures and events associating with intelligent, high functioning individuals. The only interaction with humanity they have is from the windows of their cars as they drive through “that part of town”. They remark as they drive through, “Jeeves! Look at these poor people. They look absolutely miserable. We must do something for them!”

4. Abuse by other doctors. We get dumped on a lot by other specialties, but they never like getting dumped on by us. Yesterday, I got a call from an internal med doc, who said,” I’m sending a patient in from radiology. She had a DVT for the past several weeks, but in the past day, her leg has become much more swollen. US today shows that the clot has propagated to the entire leg. My husband and I (her husband is one of our hospitalists) think she needs to have catheter-directed thrombolysis arranged. Will you do it, because I am home and don’t have the numbers?” Come to find out, the clot has been that big for the past 8 weeks, looking at the reports, and the vascular surgeon said the clot is too far out for thrombolysis to be effective. The same person who thought I should be dumped on consistently tries to block admissions on weak chest pain admits, and TIAs all the time, even though our groups and the CEO have met repeatedly over the matter and decided that when we decide to admit, there will be no push back.

It is really hard to work in the ER, and not make mistakes from time to time, either in being too aggressive in treatment, or not aggressive enough. As much as we complain about lawyers, NO ONE is more critical of one another than physicians. The frequency that you see people get thrown under the bus by colleagues is astounding.

3. Lots of drug seekers. The lengths that people will go to in lying to get narcotics are astounding, and frustrating. The main way that you get information as a doctor is by performing a history and physical. With a history and physical in hand, you proceed with more advanced testing and treatments as clinically warranted. What do you do when people are making up symptoms, past medical problems, lying about social histories? What if they are too stupid/ demented to understand questions? Tell me I'm not the only one to have ever asked the question "Did the pain start suddenly or gradually?" and got the response..."I don't understand your question." You want to say, then you are too stupid to be wasting my time with. What do you do when people are faking severe abdominal pain? One of my personal pet peeves is facial droops and arm weakness that amazingly, have normal MRIs. The classic pseudoseizure patient is also gut-wrenchingly irritating.

2. It is all about money. Many, if not most ERs in the country have become money generating boons to the hospital. The hospital administration, and the ER directors who generally work a lot less, if at all, want all the business through the ER that they can get. Where is the down-side from their perspective? The result is that most hospitals actually encourage BS complaints to come to their ERs. They WANT non-emergent patients. In fact, their bottom line depends on catering to people with non-emergent complaints, who use the ER out of convenience. Where I currently work, I have been told in no uncertain terms, that I will never, ever tell anyone that they are not welcome in the ER for any complaint day or night. That is a hard pill to swallow as I'm walking down the hall after the rare night-time nap, thinking, and "this darn well better be an emergency". It never is. But hey, I get paid good, so I just shut my mouth, put on a smile and welcome them back for any concerns whatsoever. "We're always open, you know that. We'd love to see you again if you have any concerns" I tell most of my patients.

This is manifested by the common marketing ploy of The Thirty Minute Promise. ERs advertise that you will be guaranteed to be seen within 30 minutes of checking in by a physician. ERs around my area have even started posting their wait times online in an effort to attract non-emergent patients from other, more busy, ERs.

The exception to this are the ERs that have no room to grow physically, and are consistently unable to meet the persistent onslaught of patients. Most of these hospitals also have limited in-patient beds with frequent ER boarding, resulting in massive ER wait times, poor morale, terrible patient satisfaction scores, and high risk of litigation. So, while they don't try to force their physicians to bend over backwards and kowtow to non-emergent patients, they are not generally pleasant places to work.

1. Whiny, entitled patients-
Yesterday, I saw 27 patients in an 11 hour period. You would think that there was a local boot-camp for medicaid or something. There were a couple of interesting patients, but for the most part, it was an endless parade of nonsense. When your negative imaging rate is approaching 95%, you know your patients are a bunch of whiny hypochondriacs.
 
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Reasons to go into EM:

1. Shift work. No call. You clock out and you're done.
2. Breaking 300k is realistic.
3. Minimal continuity of care.
4. Full time status is considered 12-15 shifts a month.
5. The usual reasons that it appeals to the self-proclaimed ADD crowd: lots of different patients, quick decision making, on your feet all day.

And EM is becoming increasingly competitive. It's also one of the few non-surgical specialties that's seeing a rise in income.
 
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